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  1. #1
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    Look at the Yamaha and Integra lineups and you should be ok under $1k

    I use an Integra 30.3 to drive 42 rears and 122c and pass the fronts out to my main rig.

  2. #2
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    Need Receiver Advice for Dynaudio Audience Setup

    After not being here for years, I need some help. By B&K AVR 202 (yes i know how old it was) receiver is on its last legs and I need to get a HT receiver. I have Dynaudio Audience 70s in front, Center channel, Sub 40A and 42s for the rears. I want to get a good economical receiver that will get them the power they need, but I donít need to waste a ton of money for exotic/rare setup features. This is a 1-room home theater receiver and occasional music use only. Can I get away with spending $1k or do i need to spend more to power them? I havenít been paying attention to the industry since I bought this all years ago, so I am ignorant to the advances and what my money buys these days. Suggestions at a few price points would be excellent if anyone wants to share some knowledge.
    Thanks,
    Ryan
    rwalsh@hotmail.com

  3. #3
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airblue23 View Post
    After not being here for years, I need some help. By B&K AVR 202 (yes i know how old it was) receiver is on its last legs and I need to get a HT receiver. I have Dynaudio Audience 70s in front, Center channel, Sub 40A and 42s for the rears. I want to get a good economical receiver that will get them the power they need, but I donít need to waste a ton of money for exotic/rare setup features. This is a 1-room home theater receiver and occasional music use only. Can I get away with spending $1k or do i need to spend more to power them? I havenít been paying attention to the industry since I bought this all years ago, so I am ignorant to the advances and what my money buys these days. Suggestions at a few price points would be excellent if anyone wants to share some knowledge.
    Thanks,
    Ryan
    rwalsh@hotmail.com
    Some questions....How large is the room? At what frequency do you cross your mains to your sub?

    If your room is not very big, and you use the standard 80hz crossover to your sub, you will easily stay under your 1K budget. If you run your three front speakers in the large mode, and your room is medium or large size, you will have to go north of your 1K to power your system. The 70's are not a very efficient speaker(87db), and they have a rather low impedance(4 ohm), and a lot of less than 1K receivers don't do very well under this condition.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
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  4. #4
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Just make sure the receiver is rated for 4 ohm speakers what ever you get. Also consider Denon and NAD. Onkyo's are very good but get hot and most of them are rated to 6 ohms. Using low sensitivity 4 ohm speakers (your Dynaudios) may over heat them.

    I believe the Onkyo TX-NR709 and 809 are rated for 4 ohms.

    Onkyo TX-NR809 - 7.2-Channel Network A/V Receiver | Model Information | Onkyo USA Home Theater Products

    Onkyo TX-NR809 7.2-Channel 3D Network A/V Receiver
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  5. #5
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    The room is 18x20

    80hz crossover.

    If i need to spend $2-3k to get good performance, I will. Just curious how economically i can do it.

  6. #6
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I think that any of the Onkyo, Yamaha and Integra Units that sell for near $1K will give you pretty good performance. I would make sure that they have Preamp out connections so that if you decide in the future that you want to up grade that amplifier for 2ch music you can just hook an amp up to the preamp outs. Going with an NAD AVR can solve the problem of becoming obsolete as they have AVR's that have replaceable modules to keep your receiver up to date-

    T 787 A/V Surround Sound Receiver - NAD Electronics

    MDC Modules - NAD Electronics

    Here are some good deals on NAD AVR's-

    Surround Receivers by Spearit Sound - Page 2


    My issue with spending $2-3K on an AVR is that as new formats come out the AVR becomes obsolete if you want the latest and greatest features. With that being said, I am currently using and obsolete Adcom AVR for my HT.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  7. #7
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    I'm going to recommend a low ball option in the Panasonic SA- XR55/57 which aren't made anymore but can be found on ebay. They now enjoy an almost cult like status as they sound excellent and offer so much for so little. I paid $199 for mine back in 07 and it's still going strong. Sadly class D never caught on with the AVR crowd like it has with us 2-channel folks.

    It is all class D and makes it's amplication in the digital stage. It's trim, lightweight and unlike my Marantz SR6006 the Panny never gets warm. I've read of others driving 4 ohm Magnepans with the Panny. It has analogue inputs which means it can be used with BR players having analogue outputs for the latest codex's.

    Panasonic SA XR55 7.1 Channel 700 Watt Receiver 5025232332120 | eBay

  8. #8
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    The Dyn's will definitely benefit from receivers with high current which leaves many out, I'd recommend either the Onkyo or Integra. Some say HK is still high current but I have no experience to say. If budget permits and sound is important you might want to look into Cambridge Audio or NAD. My Dynaudio dealer has sold both with Dyn's. Prior to that they also had success with Marantz receivers.

    FWIW, What Hi Fi gave the Onkyo 609 product of the year last year and the 515, it's replacement, doesn't have the THX certification but WHF claims the 515 is equal to the 609 in sound. These receivers also have streaming capability from internet radio which you might find fun.

  9. #9
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    Would the Pioneer Elite VSX-52 be a capable receiver?

  10. #10
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airblue23 View Post
    Would the Pioneer Elite VSX-52 be a capable receiver?
    Based on the size of your room, and the efficiency of your speakers, I would get a THX Ultra certified receiver rather than a select2 receiver like the Pioneer. I am not referring to the certification per se, but to the amplifier demands that Ultra certification requires
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  11. #11
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    The Dyn's will definitely benefit from receivers with high current which leaves many out, I'd recommend either the Onkyo or Integra. Some say HK is still high current but I have no experience to say. If budget permits and sound is important you might want to look into Cambridge Audio or NAD. My Dynaudio dealer has sold both with Dyn's. Prior to that they also had success with Marantz receivers.

    FWIW, What Hi Fi gave the Onkyo 609 product of the year last year and the 515, it's replacement, doesn't have the THX certification but WHF claims the 515 is equal to the 609 in sound. These receivers also have streaming capability from internet radio which you might find fun.
    Peabody...what makes you think the Onkyo's are high current? Does not say so in the specs of their receivers. Seems like all AVR's are putting in power supplies that can drive hard loads lower than 8 ohms these days and not listing "High Current" as they use too back a few years ago.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  12. #12
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    I guess my point is not that Onkyo isn't high current, but most of the main stream AVR's are high current without listing high current in the manual these days. Other wise how could they get the dynamic power they need for the explosions and so forth that is needed?

    I notice when I purchased my Marantz a few years ago, they listed high current in the manual and web site, but now no such language in their manual. My new Yammie does not list high current, but has all the dynamic power needed and will blow my old high current Marantz away.

    I've done some research and it seems the word "High Currerent" is/was more of a marketing tool for AVR manufactures then and today as its understood that most AVR's do in fact put in beefy power supplies to handle the 2, 4, 6 ohm speakers. And the worst part about the word "High Current" is when its listed as a marketing tool there is no specs listed for that power supply showing why its high current. Thats just what I have discovered from my readings.....Maybe some body like Sir Terrence or Hyfi can chime in here and correct me where im wrong....not trying to start a fight.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  13. #13
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    The Onkyo TX NR609 lists that it is high current with a Massive High Power Transformer what ever that means. They don't list the peak amps. Here is a review on it. The 2ch music play back was rated as OK but nothing spectacular. I would certainly opt for a better AVR if 2ch music is important to you.

    Onkyo TX-NR609 A/V Receiver Page 3 | Home Theater

    I think that if you are willing to spend the money, then get an NAD.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  14. #14
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    Integra 30.3 or higher will do fine. I am driving all Audience with that although it gets warm.

    The HK AVRs will also drive 4ohms with no issues and I think a little better than the Integra.

  15. #15
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    I bought this Marantz SR6006 about six 6 months ago and it's been a joy. Love the pure sound option which bi-passes much of the circuity and adds tube like warmth. I don't know if it's in your price range but it will drive your Dyns as I have a friend that uses one's to drive his.


  16. #16
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven View Post
    The Onkyo TX NR609 lists that it is high current with a Massive High Power Transformer what ever that means. They don't list the peak amps. Here is a review on it. The 2ch music play back was rated as OK but nothing spectacular. I would certainly opt for a better AVR if 2ch music is important to you.

    Onkyo TX-NR609 A/V Receiver Page 3 | Home Theater

    I think that if you are willing to spend the money, then get an NAD.
    Hi Raven...no I am perfectly satisfied with the Yammie. It has plenty of power. My family rm is 24 x 18..I Have Paradigm Monitor 7's v3 as fronts and Klipsch KM 4 towers which are just as big as my Monitor 7' v3's. I have a Marage Omni 8 which is just fine with lots of deep bass, and a Klipsch KSW 12 which is way more power which I am not using at the moment. The Aventage RX-A710 drives all very good.

    But my point after researching is that AVRS use to always list "High Current" years ago. Most named brand AVRs that are made today are not listing "High Current" because its almost a known item and most of the newer AVRs like Yamaha, Marantz, and all the rest have power supplies that can drive the loads well. They have loads of dynamic power for 2,4,6 ohm speakers.

    But Onkyo is one manufacturer that still list it as a marketing tool which is fine, but Apparently there seems to be a crowd that think if its not listed then the AVR is week and wont be able to drive the loads well. And yes, those that list "HIgh Curent" never list the specs. I assumed from my research of the subject, that its only a marketing tool.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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    W10 i5 Quad core processor 8GB RAM/Jriver 20/ Fidelizer Optimizer/ iFI Micro DSD DAC-iUSB 3.0/Vincent SA - T1/Vincent SP-331 MK /MMF-7.1/2M BLACK/MS Phenomena ll+/Canton Vento 830.2

  17. #17
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post

    But Onkyo is one manufacturer that still list it as a marketing tool which is fine, but Apparently there seems to be a crowd that think if its not listed then the AVR is week and wont be able to drive the loads well. And yes, those that list "HIgh Curent" never list the specs. I assumed from my research of the subject, that its only a marketing tool.
    I think you are mixing Onkyo bandwidth claims with their current claims. All Onkyo reciever had what is called WRAT(Wide Range Amplifier Technology) amps, or amps with a 5-100khz measured bandwidth. However most AVR's are measured with a power response based on only two channels, not all seven. As you power more channels than two, the ability to deliver current and power diminshes with each additional channel added. There are very few AVR's that can drive 4ohms speakers, and even fewer that can drive 2ohms. This is why pre-outs are a big deal for me on AVR's I purchase. Adding external power amps usually increase the performance of a system built around a AVR.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  18. #18
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven View Post
    The Onkyo TX NR609 lists that it is high current with a Massive High Power Transformer what ever that means. They don't list the peak amps. Here is a review on it. The 2ch music play back was rated as OK but nothing spectacular. I would certainly opt for a better AVR if 2ch music is important to you.

    Onkyo TX-NR609 A/V Receiver Page 3 | Home Theater

    I think that if you are willing to spend the money, then get an NAD.
    One has to look at the size of the room, versus effieciency of the speaker, versus dynamic impact in the listeners room. Quality 4ohm performance at his receivers price is just too much to ask for.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  19. #19
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Naw I think you and I are speaking too two different things, but I did gain some in sight from you. Thanks for the knowledge Terrence.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  20. #20
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I am not advocating that he buy Onkyo except if he is looking for a budget receiver. The Onkyo comes with preamp outs. I would buy the 809 as it has more power and features. However they are really only rated for 6-8 ohm speakers. NAD is rated for 4-8 ohms and have beefy torroidal power supplies.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  21. #21
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    What is the most affordable NAD you would recommend for this Dyn Audience 5.1 setup?

  22. #22
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    It's simple Ohms Law, if the speaker impedance drops the demand for current from the amp is greater. Not all receivers are built to supply that demand. Onkyo designs their receivers to do so to a point and I don't see how stating that becomes a marketing ploy.

  23. #23
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Hi Peabody. Whats Onkyo's measured continuous power output into 4 ohms? Just so youd know, I dont doubt that Onkyo can now drive 3 or 4 ohm speakers.....but so can a lot of AVR's who no longer need to list high current. But I do remember Onkyo had reliability problems a few years back from over heating of their AVR's. I suspect their receivers had problems driving some loads. That may be one of the reasons why they are listing "high current" while others dont. Just my speculation. Onkyo / Integra Research is a very good product.

    But most recievers are listing good number in dynamic power in 8/4/2 ohm loads, Power for all channel driven at full bandwidth 20Hz to 20KHz with THD < 0.1%. Good numbers in these areas may tell us something about how good the power supply is which delivers that "high current". But hey man, lets not argue....I really dont want to get into it....if you disagree well, we can't always agree. Besides, you and I agree on a lots of things....so this is not that impotant.

    Here is my new Aventage RX-A710 which does not list "High Current" but kicked my old Marantz which did list "High Current" in the balls..My poor cell phone camera.

    [img]

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/img]

    This is what Digital Trends says about the power supplys in the Yamaha Aventage Home Theaters.

    "Much of what distinguishes the Aventage receivers are build quality aspects and layout design. For instance, the receiverís power supply has been placed in the center of the chassis with the left and right amplifier circuits placed on either side. This permits a physical separation between the left and right channels. Directly under the power supply is what Yamaha calls the ďARTĒ wedge. ART in this case stands for Anti-Resonance Technology. The idea here is that the fifth foot provides better isolation from external vibrations. Doing so is meant to make an appreciable improvement in sound quality but, on that point, weíre undecided. Itís also possible that placing a heavy power supply smack in the middle of the receiverís chassis required some additional support. Just sayiní"

    But the manual says nothing about "High Current". But in home theater mode, it kicks the hell out of my "High Current" Marantz which has been moved to the basement Home thearter which had a old Sony Home Theater receiver that was really week in dynamic power.


    The article went on to say this about the RX-3010 which does not list "high Current at all.

    Once we completed a manual speaker calibration, we decided to put the A3010 through a pretty intensive workout right off the bat. Yamaha rates this receiver as ď150 watts per channelĒ but, according to Yamahaís spec page, that measurement was made with two channels only (albeit over a wide frequency range and with low distortion figures). In our experience, a lack of multi-channel output ratings is usually a sign that something is being hidden. So, we decided to lay the smack down on the receiver by queuing up J.J. Abramsí 2009 version of Star Trek and cranking the volume up to near reference level.
    With so many bombastic scenes in this film, thereís no shortage of opportunities to make an A/V receiver wince. We took every single one of them in an effort to bring out the A3010ís raucous side but found that the RX-A3010 was able to hold together remarkably well. With all channels blazing, the Yamaha kept its cool, remaining dynamic and in control of the explosive presentation. We did feel as if some of the high frequencies were overly accentuated-a characteristic we would listen for while testing music later-but walked away confident that this receiver can deliver power on demand as well as similarly priced competition like the Denon AVR-4311CI.
    And while I dont have the RX-3010, my RX-A710 too, is able to put out high current, dynamic power when needed.


    Read more: Yamaha RX-A3010 Review | Digital Trends
    Last edited by frenchmon; 05-22-2012 at 05:11 PM.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  24. #24
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    The Onkyo's specs are misleading. The 809 is 135wpc at 8ohms 20-20Khz, 160wpc at 6ohms at 1khz with higher distortion 0.1 vs 0.08 and it list's that it is 4 ohm certified but rated for 6-8 ohms continuous.

    Airblue- take a look at the spirit sound web site for NAD-

    Surround Receivers by Spearit Sound - Page 2

    I would look at the NAD T775 HD
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  25. #25
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Yeah Raven, I would have loved to snatch one of those NAD's if I was spending that kind of Jack. Maybe next time.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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