my "stuff"

[pixelthis]

As for me, I found better sounding in the Ariston/Linn family over thirty years ago. The 1976 Ariston continues to work perfectly today. Originally, I put an SME on an SL110. Nice and really cool looking, but...



rw

Nice. My "Platters" have always been rather pedestrian, mostly a pioneer I had for
almost a decade. Almost bought a THORENS , but wound up buying the Rickie Lee
Jones direct to disc reference album he was using to demo it(and the top of the line Denon
I went up there to buy).
Ever listen to or own any Linn CD players? I NEVER DID for the same reason I never
drove a Testarosa. Was sad to hear they got out.

[thekid]

AND for those who have shown an interest, my "antique" TECHNICS TURNTABLES.
Can't remember which is 1982, and which is 1988. Currently using the direct drive,
it has an antiskate control(probably the older one).
SOME things about Panasonic I don't care for, but there products can't be beat(Panasonic
used to be the Technics brand, there "audiophile" brand). Anyway, their stuff lasts
forever, and both turntables play and handle records about as good as you could expect.
So why get a new TT?

Pix-Nice Pics!

Technics did make some nice gear and their TT have an especially well deserved reputation. I use a SL-1300 as my main TT and have a SL-1500 that need to be tweaked.
They are both direct drive TT that are built like tanks. Not saying they are in the Thorens or Linn but for their performance exceeds their price range IMO.

[E-Stat]

Ever listen to or own any Linn CD players? I NEVER DID for the same reason I never drove a Testarosa. Was sad to hear they got out.

No, but I've heard exceptional units from Burmester and EMM Labs. You can get pretty nice players for $56k (2001) and $25k (today), respectively. I find those "Ferraris" provide a useful point of reference.

rw

[pixelthis]

No, but I've heard exceptional units from Burmester and EMM Labs. You can get pretty nice players for $56k (2001) and $25k (today), respectively. I find those "Ferraris" provide a useful point of reference.

rw

Well, I learned the hard way to stay away from stuff you can't afford.
You will either get overextended buying it, or be broken hearted that you can't have it.
I will audition stuff that is just beyond my resources, that inspires me sometimes.
And sometimes miracles happen, I TRADED IN A 350 dollar B&w SUB THAT I had
had for a week, bought my 1100 dollar sub, paid cash. Won the money at a casino.

[pixelthis]

Pix-Nice Pics!

Technics did make some nice gear and their TT have an especially well deserved reputation. I use a SL-1300 as my main TT and have a SL-1500 that need to be tweaked.
They are both direct drive TT that are built like tanks. Not saying they are in the Thorens or Linn but for their performance exceeds their price range IMO.

Thanks.
YEAH, as far as they typical JAPANESE TURNTABLE of the time, TECHNICS
could not be beat. But thats the way PANNY builds everything.
THEIR product might be crap, but its half life will be longer than lead.

[E-Stat]

Well, I learned the hard way to stay away from stuff you can't afford.
You will either get overextended buying it, or be broken hearted that you can't have it.

Hmmm. That explains why you'll never understand how good audio can be. Hearing the Sea Cliff system is always a joy for me. There's a banker in my neighborhood who owns a Cessna Citation and I'd still love to fly in it - even if my budget would never handle such a purchase!

rw

[pixelthis]

Hmmm. That explains why you'll never understand how good audio can be. Hearing the Sea Cliff system is always a joy for me. There's a banker in my neighborhood who owns a Cessna Citation and I'd still love to fly in it - even if my budget would never handle such a purchase!

rw

I HAVE A perfect understanding of just how good audio can be, I HAVE HEARD REFERENCE systems before. NICE. BUT with a lot that is going on right now I just can't deal
with temptation. It would either break my heart or I WOULD GIVE IN TO IT, and can't afford to right now. As for CESSNAS, they are fun, but in their case its not just the purchase, but the dedication of taking lessons.At any rate I HAVE GIVEN IN TO TEMPTATION before,
and it wasn't pretty is all I will say.

[E-Stat]

I HAVE A perfect understanding of just how good audio can be, I HAVE HEARD REFERENCE systems before. NICE.

Which one(s) have you heard? I confess that I really cannot afford the best ones I've heard as they run from $400k to $500k. As for the Citation jet, they run a few million.

rw

[pixelthis]

Nothing near that stratospheric . Stuff from MACINTOSH, Carey, some of MARANTZES
higher end items. WE DON'T HAVE much around here, mostly have to go to BIRMINGHAM,
likkus audio, hes the guy who fixes high end systems in our area.
A FEW YEARS BACK a sat installer got a bunch of floor samples, carey, magneplane I
think, a lot of expensive gear, don't know what the deal was, place went under soon after,
but they had a lot of nice things.
THE PLACE where I buy most of my gear has moved up the street, I looked inside,
a long hall with three listening areas on each side. Only place in this town where you can
get anything halfway decent. Can't wait to check them out. Maybe they will have some
decent mains for under a grand(my limit)

[pixelthis]

AS for the Citation, got a chance for a ride several years back. I WORKED AT AN AIRPORT,
Rode with pilots and student pilots all the time. I wanted to ride this one, but I was working
and couldnt get a break. Plane did look nice.

[E-Stat]

Nothing near that stratospheric .

Ok. When playing familiar material on those system(s) - since you never really described one - do you hear things that you had never quite heard the same way before?

rw

[pixelthis]

Ok. When playing familiar material on those system(s) - since you never really described one - do you hear things that you had never quite heard the same way before?

rw

When I was a kid I LIVED at the place on mcfarland, basically. They handled mac,
Dual. JBL, Advent. This stuff was magical to me(I was 12).
Listening to high end gear was a revelation, at that early age and later on.
TAKING electronics class, we had the class curriculum, and the stuff we did on the side,
fixing up old FISHER and other type gear, and rhapsodizing over the latest PIONEER
and SANSUI receivers(I was a kid, okay?).
I have always had to go by the law of diminishing returns , had to settle for the 96% you get
after you clear your first couple of grand. That saves thousands.
I THINK I know where you're going with this, and sorry, but specs have always been important to me. I WOULD MUCH PREFER gear that is accurate, the precise way something sounds
is whats key to me, that is what tends to sound better to me, and gives a more realistic
soundstage.
I know you go by what you "feel" and thats okay. But I SAW a powercord advertised on
this site for 1100 DOLLARS!!!
Which is rediculous. I couldnt beleive the ad copy, at one time they were talking about
photons, for gods sake!!!SORRY but I can't afford such tender offerings to the
imagination, the truth is that this cord will never make a difference in the sound of
anything, its physically impossible, all it will do is enrich the guy who sells it at the expense of the guy who buys it. Thats what it was meant to do.
I CAN'T afford such things, the stuff I COULD BUY WITH 1100 DOLLARS!!!
This is a gap your and my kind will never bridge, having been in a lab, and later flying
checkrides with pilots, I KNOW HOW IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS in anything.
You're senses are very fallible. Interview witnesses after a crime, no two will agree on
anything.WHEN YOU listen to gear you hear what you want to hear, I LISTEN,
to what the music sounds like. I GO BY THE SPECS.
With decent specs you know that what you are buying will at least be in the ballpark.
With what you "hear" you might as well be like the army of "doze" buyers who
don't even understand the gap between the mid and lower range.
Without measurement you are lost in the woods. How your gear performs in a lab, what difference it makes, is key. You cant know what a difference it makes in the sound,
the human animal doesnt have the ability. You have to measure things.

Thats all you can do, at the end of the day. EVERYTHING ELSE is rubbish, as has been shown time and again.
'

[E-Stat]

I have always had to go by the law of diminishing returns...

Most all of us have to face that. It just takes place at different levels.

I know you go by what you "feel" and thats okay.

I go by what I observe.

...the truth is that this cord will never make a difference in the sound of anything, its physically impossible...

I'm not an apologist for every product, but some do make a difference in high rez systems.Engineering wise, they can provide better instantaneous current delivery for high powered amps and provide RFI filtering without limiting current capability.

I KNOW HOW IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS in anything.

Your operating assumption is that we measure all there is to measure and can correlate that to what we hear. Such is not the case. Especially when the measurements are performed in a completely different manner than for playing dynamic music. THD is largely meaningless. The spectra of distortion and the instantaneous nature of distortion, however, is not. There are many amplifiers with incredibly low static metrics that generate relatively high levels of objectionable distortion, especially at the top end that are not reflected by test tones. Numbers alone do not tell the whole story when it comes to music. Never have.

I have never limited my appreciation of audio gear, much less anything else, based upon what I can afford. I can appreciate far beyond my wallet when it comes to numerous activities. I assure you there are levels of detail on your CDs that you have never heard before. I wish everyone could spend days listening to highly tuned super systems in a home environment to fully realize what is possible. I've been extremely lucky having been able to do that with a couple of audio reviewers who get all the toys for over thirty years. I really didn't know what I didn't know until - I experienced it. Maybe some day you'll figure that out.

rw

[poppachubby]

Indeed. Take most 80's direct drive tables. They measure quite well, often, better than tables that clearly sound 20 times better.

[Smokey]

THD is largely meaningless.

How can you say that?

If THD is meaningless, then why not buy a car amp that have 1000 watts with 10% THD that sell for $100.

THD is measure of amp's frequecy response in regrad to amplyfing the input signal. Or in another word, comparing amp's output signal to its input. The higher THD, the less output signal will look like the input.

[E-Stat]

How can you say that?If THD is meaningless, then why not buy a car amp that have 1000 watts with 10% THD that sell for $100.

Ok, you got me. I guess I need to pull a Pat D and assume that you have some understanding of how mid-fi audio components compare against that which is better. We can skip overt garbage.

THD is measure of amp's frequecy response in regrad to amplyfing the input signal. Or in another word, comparing amp's output signal to its input. The higher THD, the less output signal will look like the input.

I see you have a grasp of the obvious and the simple. What isn't obvious is the difference between what happens with test tones and what happens with music. Why do you think that many amplifiers from companies ranging from Crown to Pass Labs have higher rated distortion specs than their predecessors?

rw

[Smokey]

Ok, you got me. I guess I need to pull a Pat D and assume that you have some understanding of how mid-fi audio components compare against that which is better. We can skip overt garbage.

Well, distortion is distortion whether we are talking about car amps or $10,000 amps. Even if distortion is intentional.

I see you have a grasp of the obvious and the simple. What isn't obvious is the difference between what happens with test tones and what happens with music.

Ok, I give you that. But then you have to answer the following question:

Wouldn't the same distortion that happened with test tones would also happen with music which is more complex and have more harmonics? I mean if an amp that distort third harmonics of test tone wouldn't also distort the third harmnics of music tone.

Why do you think that many amplifiers from companies ranging from Crown to Pass Labs have higher rated distortion specs than their predecessors?

That is because the designer wanted to give more [sound] signature to the newer models. And when you buy an amp that have their own signature, you are buying somebody elses vision (in this case the designer) as to how an amp should sound.

Less distortion, the less signature sound

[E-Stat]

Wouldn't the same distortion that happened with test tones would also happen with music which is more complex and have more harmonics?

And more. That's the point. It is far easier to handle simple tones than dynamic music with complex harmonic patterns. The results with the former are not indicative of what happens with the latter.

That is because the designer wanted to give more [sound] signature to the newer models.

Nope. The real answer is that better open loop performance without feedback crutches sounds far better musically even if it measures poorly. Engineers have learned what really works in the real world if not on paper.

Less distortion, the less signature sound

For those who listen to static test tones, yes. The Crown D-150 I owned as a teenager had positively wonderful specs - yet sounded hard as nails at the top and had a constricted soundstage. But then, simplistic metrics don't begin to address any sort of qualitative results.

rw

[pixelthis]

Well, distortion is distortion whether we are talking about car amps or $10,000 amps. Even if distortion is intentional.



Ok, I give you that. But then you have to answer the following question:

Wouldn't the same distortion that happened with test tones would also happen with music which is more complex and have more harmonics? I mean if an amp that distort third harmonics of test tone wouldn't also distort the third harmnics of music tone.



That is because the designer wanted to give more [sound] signature to the newer models. And when you buy an amp that have their own signature, you are buying somebody elses vision (in this case the designer) as to how an amp should sound.

Less distortion, the less signature sound

You are wasting your time Smokey. You are arguing with someone who doesnt understand the scientific method, someone who uses doublespeak that means nothing
to justify very expensive low performing gear.
What matters is how gear performs, measurement is important, without it you are
lost in the woods.
For instance I STARTED out a huge rock and roll fan, still enjoy some of it.
But as my gear got better and better, I FOUND MY TASTES CHANGING.
Now I listen mostly to jazz. MEDIOCRE gear can mask bad music, gear needs to be
neutral, and provide clear accurate music.
TUBE gear provides less performance than Solid state , simple as that. It gets kinda
frustrating when the touchy feely crowd says that that doesnt matter.
They seem to have forgotten the purpose of this hobby, to reproduce audio (and now video)
as cleanly and accurately as possible. Everything else is a cheat.
EQ, bass, treble, and especially loudness controls fell out oif favor for that reason,
they color the sound and audiophiles understood that.
WHAT THE STILL HAVENT GOT is that stuff like 1100 dollar power cords and silver interconnects are mere snake oil. FRUSTRATING TO TRY to explain that there is NO
way a "power cord" can affect the sound of a properly working piece of gear.
You might as well be saying the moon is made of green cheese.
BUT AT LEAST these modern equivalents of green magic markers won't hurt the
sound(usually). Tubes on the other hand are, compared to solid state, inherently unstable,
work different day to day based on ambient temp, their age, how long the circuit has been on, etc. And the output can never be as accurate as solid state. TUBE GEAR
actually degrades the sound. Tubes need to be replaced on a regular basis also,
usually leading to a snipe hunt like POPPA IS GOING ON NOW.
Tube fanciers, like the emperor convinced his "invisible" set of clothes is Superior,
are not going to be swayed by logic, heavy de-programming, or anything else. At least the Emperor finally listened to the innocent statement of truth from a small child.
Tube(and other audio voodoo ) fanciers will never be swayed from their nonsense,
no matter how many thousands of rationalists lay siege to their delusions.

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE]

Most all of us have to face that. It just takes place at different levels.

BOING! There is a certain performance point at which you are going to get the max bang for the buck, then more and more dollars will net less and less improvements in performance. It doesnt take place at different levels, but different price points, depending on how well your gear performs and how much it costs.
You will finally get to a point where a massive investment results in a tiny increase in performance. THE TRICK IS to ride the edge, get the best performing gear for the best price


I go by what I observe.
But measurement (observation) is unimportant?

I'm not an apologist for every product, but some do make a difference in high rez systems.Engineering wise, they can provide better instantaneous current delivery for high powered amps and provide RFI filtering without limiting current capability.

This says a lot and means absolutely nothing.
YOU NEED TO BECOME a speech writer for a politician

Your operating assumption is that we measure all there is to measure and can correlate that to what we hear. Such is not the case. Especially when the measurements are performed in a completely different manner than for playing dynamic music. THD is largely meaningless. The spectra of distortion and the instantaneous nature of distortion, however, is not. There are many amplifiers with incredibly low static metrics that generate relatively high levels of objectionable distortion, especially at the top end that are not reflected by test tones. Numbers alone do not tell the whole story when it comes to music. Never have.

No, but numbers give you some idea of what you are dealing with, you can't dismiss them because you don't like the results.
Oh wait, you can, that is why the use of inferior tube equipment, in spie of the fact that it can't "measure up".

I have never limited my appreciation of audio gear, much less anything else, based upon what I can afford. I can appreciate far beyond my wallet when it comes to numerous activities. I assure you there are levels of detail on your CDs that you have never heard before. I wish everyone could spend days listening to highly tuned super systems in a home environment to fully realize what is possible. I've been extremely lucky having been able to do that with a couple of audio reviewers who get all the toys for over thirty years. I really didn't know what I didn't know until - I experienced it. Maybe some day you'll figure that out.

Maybe you will figure out that, while not listening to a mega buck system, I have trucked my CD's over half the south listening to some pretty nice systems.
AND THE differences between a megabuck system and a mere "high end" system are
not as big as you might think, there are smaller fractions of improvement the higher you go up the food chain.

[E-Stat]

No, but numbers give you some idea of what you are dealing with, you can't dismiss them because you don't like the results.

Real science tests relevance of data. Unlike you who are afraid to perform such a test, real scientists determine thresholds.

Oh wait, you can, that is why the use of inferior tube equipment, in spie of the fact that it can't "measure up".

Real scientists experiment rather than speculate.

AND THE differences between a megabuck system and a mere "high end" system are not as big as you might think...

For one who thinks Advent and JBL are "high end", we have very, very different points of reference that lead us to different conclusions.

rw

[Geoffcin]

Real science tests relevance of data.

rw

Actually, science only makes REAL sense if what your testing is relevant!

I still vividly remember my first "great" NEC CD player. Set me back some change back in '84 when it promised "Perfect sound forever" The specs were impressive, the sound wasn't. Back then nobody even knew what jitter WAS, (or brick wall filter ringing) let alone test for it. Unfortunately I was one of those that were VERY sensitive to jitter distortion and it really wasn't until I got my current CD player (which actually specs no better than that old NEC using the old THD measurements) that I heard at least a hint of what CD performance was supposed to be. (you still need great engineered CD's!)

THD means something, but even more so is WHAT the THD is comprised of. If you have 1% of distortion that is primarily 2'nd order, then it is going to be nearly impossible to hear. If you have even.1% of distortion that is third order then you are going to sense it as hard/grating/glassy. That is of course if your speaker are even capable of that kind of resolution! Most people leave the speakers out of the equation, but by FAR they are the most important part of what your whole system will sound like, and what you'll be able to resolve.

FYI; I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know E-Stat, but I am loath the respond directly to any PIX bomb.

[E-Stat]

Actually, science only makes REAL sense if what your testing is relevant!... If you have 1% of distortion that is primarily 2'nd order, then it is going to be nearly impossible to hear. If you have even.1% of distortion that is third order then you are going to sense it as hard/grating/glassy.

Thank you. At least someone here really understands the perception of sound.

FYI; I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know E-Stat, but I am loath the respond directly to any PIX bomb.

I guess you're right. He'll never learn anything. For the benefit of anyone who wants to learn something about human perception, this is a good document on the audibility of various kinds of distortion.

rw

[Smokey]

And more. That's the point. It is far easier to handle simple tones than dynamic music with complex harmonic patterns.

That is excatly my point. If an amp can not replicate a simple sine wave form due to high distortion, how would you expect it to do better with complex wave that have many more harmonics. I wish you think about that for a moment.

For example, a 1k square wave is made of 1k pure sinewave with odd integer harmonics. If you send that square wave thru a circuit that can not replicate the odd harmnics accurately, what you will get at other end is not a perfect square wave any more.

Now if we send a complex wave form thru the same circuit, what you make you think that circuit will perform differently as regard to harmonics?

Nope. The real answer is that better open loop performance without feedback crutches sounds far better musically even if it measures poorly. Engineers have learned what really works in the real world if not on paper.

Well my friend whether you like it or not, feedback is integral part of analog circuits and design. There is feed back in every circuit, starting with power supply circuit. Without feedback, the circuit is unstable, unperdictable and specifications uncontrollable. It is electronics 101.

The Crown D-150 I owned as a teenager had positively wonderful specs - yet sounded hard as nails at the top and had a constricted soundstage. But then, simplistic metrics don't begin to address any sort of qualitative results.

I agree. Simplistic metric does not address qualitative results, but it does get you in the ball park of accuracy. Once there, then you can pick an amp that sound best to you.

I looked at Crown D-150 specifications and it does have impressive numbers. You ever thought that Crown amp sounding hard as nails or constricted soundstage might have been result of your speakers or set up?

But either way, I hope you are not judging specification just based on performance of one amp alone.

You are wasting your time Smokey

Not as long as issues are discussed intelligently....and no name calling

[E-Stat]

That is excatly my point. If an amp can not replicate a simple sine wave form due to high distortion, how would you expect it to do better with complex wave that have many more harmonics.

You have totally missed my point. The fact that a poorly designed high-feedback amplifier can demonstrate low distortion when reproducing a simple test tone DOES NOT ensure that it will perform as well on dynamic music signals.

For example, a 1k square wave is made of 1k pure sinewave with odd integer harmonics. If you send that square wave thru a circuit that can not replicate the odd harmnics accurately, what you will get at other end is not a perfect square wave any more.

Sure. What does that have to do with the discussion? You can find any number of switching amps that demonstrate low distortion, but bend the crap out of a square wave. Yet another demonstration that low THD alone is utterly meaningless.

There is feed back in every circuit, starting with power supply circuit.

How do you respond to such profound ignorance of what is available?

Without feedback, the circuit is unstable, unperdictable and specifications uncontrollable. It is electronics 101.

That's what happens when you have no idea whatsoever as to what you're talking about. There are audio electronics, both SS and tube alike, that do not rely on that crutch.

Simplistic metric does not address qualitative results, but it does get you in the ball park of accuracy.

Only in the grossest form.

I looked at Crown D-150 specifications and it does have impressive numbers. You ever thought that Crown amp sounding hard as nails or constricted soundstage might have been result of your speakers or set up?

Sure. Then I compared other amplifiers in the same system and the problem went away. The 1981 Threshold with zero global feedback is significantly better sounding. I got over your simplistic thinking when I was a teenager. Units employing first generation op amps were universally poor sounding.

But either way, I hope you are not judging specification just based on performance of one amp alone.

Certainly not. I was foolish to buy another amp just because of its specs and found it sounded poorly at low levels. I listen to amplifiers, not metrics which fail to correlate to real world performance.

rw