I Predict HD DVD Players Will Be A Failure for the first 3 Years

[Eric Z]

Interesting conversation. I somewhat agree with Ed regarding this. The great great majority are very happy with DVDs, so why change to something that is only going to increase the picture and sound. I know, I know- everyone here is going to say, "Those are the main reasons I will buy an HD-DVD player!" The jump from VHS to SD DVD I feel is bigger than the jump from SD DVD to HD DVD. I'm not talking about the pic/sound quality; I'm talking about the disc vs tape format and the convenience of skipping chapters with a click of a button and not needing to rewind/fast forward a darn tape. Also, the durability of a disc vs a tape.

I'm very interested to see how well HD DVDs will be marketed and how the general public responds. Even though SD DVD players dropped in price much much faster than VCRs back in the day, it still took some time for it to be affordable to the general public. And I feel affordable for the general public is less than $250.

[recoveryone]

whats all this sound upgrade stuff, the PQ will increse but I haven't heard anything above DTS/DD yet so what is this higher level sound format you guys are refering too.

[Eric Z]

good point, recoveryone- that's my fault. i was actually thinking about the sound quality of HDTV vs just watching the TV- like how you can get 5.1 with HD watching football, but with my SDTV, it's just basic sound for me. you're right, same sound as my current DVDs now.

I wonder what's next after DD/DTS- something else that would cause us to spend more,

[recoveryone]

good point, recoveryone- that's my fault. i was actually thinking about the sound quality of HDTV vs just watching the TV- like how you can get 5.1 with HD watching football, but with my SDTV, it's just basic sound for me. you're right, same sound as my current DVDs now.

I wonder what's next after DD/DTS- something else that would cause us to spend more,

No problem Z, I thought maybe I may have missed somthing new coming out. But I assumed that you had HD, so when you get it you'll know the great sound you get watching a live game, I feel football is the best in 5.1 as you can hear the crowd the stadium announcer and the commentators coming from all around you. Primetime shows are ok, but they are not produce to fully use surround sound. Now if the SciFi channel came in HD 5.1 that would be awesome due that they show they kind of shows that would benefit from that format. The new DVD format would be very successful if it would be backwards compatible, so there would be no need to replace a nice collection of DVD's

[Eric Z]

I think I would most enjoy sports in HD- that's especially what I'm looking forward to. I heard football (as you said) is great and even baseball in HD 5.1 is fantastic.

I look forward to it sometime in the future. I first have to rearrange my furniture where I want the HD- I bought a huge sectional for my family room (where we watch all of the movies) that only fits one way in that room- it works well for a 32" SDTV, but not sure how it will be with a widescreen. Then, I'm thinking about getting one in the main living room (where everyone congregates)- I can do that, but then I need to do something with my big entertainment center that only fits SDTVs- decisions, decisions.

[recoveryone]

I think I would most enjoy sports in HD- that's especially what I'm looking forward to. I heard football (as you said) is great and even baseball in HD 5.1 is fantastic.

I look forward to it sometime in the future. I first have to rearrange my furniture where I want the HD- I bought a huge sectional for my family room (where we watch all of the movies) that only fits one way in that room- it works well for a 32" SDTV, but not sure how it will be with a widescreen. Then, I'm thinking about getting one in the main living room (where everyone congregates)- I can do that, but then I need to do something with my big entertainment center that only fits SDTVs- decisions, decisions.

Don't forget you can go with a LCD/DLP and hang it on the wall to save space

[L.J.]

I think I would most enjoy sports in HD- that's especially what I'm looking forward to. I heard football (as you said) is great and even baseball in HD 5.1 is fantastic.

It is!! I have a very hard time watching a game in SD. As a matter of fact, I can't remember the last time I watched a game in SD. The word spoiled comes to mind.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hey Rob,
SACD and DVD-A are a complete failure. They may still be turning out titles, but they are at a rate that is 1/10 of what it used to be. DSD(the bitstream of SACD) is not even in the spec's for BluRay.

When DVD players first came out, they were over a $1000. My toshiba costs about $1100. The price rapidly came down over the years as DVD became widely except by everyone.

The new HD format have bigger issues. There was no competition to the DVD, but there will be between these two formats. As long as they both go at it, prices will remain very high for both players. Sony may have a price advantage if they include BluRay in PS3. However it is VERY likely that HD-DVD will end up in the next version of Xbox

The copy protection schemes, and lack of HD output on the component video input has completely freaked out early adopters. Talk of having to hook your player to a phone line or internet to "confirm authenticity" of the disc, and having the ability to defeat your players ability to play a disc is a MAJOR turn off, at least for me.

On a technical basis I think Sony has beat out Toshiba. But they have done this before with beta. However the studio are really turned on with the potential capacity of BluRay at 200G for a four layer disc, that is something that HD-DVD cannot touch. Toshiba is already talking about compressing video more to increase capacity, Sony has no such issues.

I have heard both new audio formats, but I question the need for either except as backward compatibility with regular DVD. With the space available you can put 8 channels of PCM tracks on each movie and skip DD and Dts altogether. Don't get me wrong, both of the lossless formats sound terrific, but if they are loseless, then why not just use the PCM encoding instead? I know alot of people that will be sitting on the fence for a while to see were this dogfight goes before investing a dime into either format.

[kexodusc]

Hey Rob,
I know alot of people that will be sitting on the fence for a while to see were this dogfight goes before investing a dime into either format.

I for one intend to build a giant fence and hide behind it. If one doesn't come crashing violently through with overwhelming momentum, I don't think I'll be buying either.

Format wars = stupid

[HT BUFF]

I couldn't agree with you more regarding the failure of SACD & DVD-A, When I go into a store and ask the clerk where the SACD'S are they say "what the hell is that"?
These formats have been on the market for 3-4 years and still nothing.

[Eric Z]

EG- I didn't know you can get DD or DTS 5.1 through digital cable or satellite. I don't have dig cable so that why I probably didn't know. What programs are in 5.1? A lot? Does ESPN come in 5.1 without HDTV?

[edtyct]

Both Dolby and DTS have hi res, nonlossy formats waiting in the wings for hi def video disks to arrive. I won't rehash them. They provide yet another opportunity for those who are happy with the current versions to stand their ground. I hate to say it, but history is littered with people who have thought, for better or worse, that a particular instantiation of "progress" was a waste of their time and/or money. For better or worse, they have the footprints on their backs to show just how deterred progress was by their staunch resistance. Regardless of how long any of us may hold out, change will come. Early adopters always seem to crawl out of the wordwork, regardless of how strong the opposition is, and manufacturers count on them. They know, as well as we do, that not everyone has the same attitude toward innovation. Personally, if most of my current music collection were available in SA-CD, I'd jump at the chance to replace it--even if resources forced me to pace myself. I'd be more selective about films, but certain ones positively scream to me for higher resolution. I enjoy the rush of seeing and hearing my favorite things (pun with Coltrane happily acknowledged) presented in better form.

Ed

[Eric Z]

Good points, Ed! I know I will eventually not be able to avoid the HD world as much as I am now. It's odd because I have the money in the bank waiting for an HDTV, but it's just too early for me to get on the boat. I think this is why my wife if always frustrated when it takes me so long to make a purchase- she says I comparison shop too much

[shokhead]

Interesting conversation. I somewhat agree with Ed regarding this. The great great majority are very happy with DVDs, so why change to something that is only going to increase the picture and sound. I know, I know- everyone here is going to say, "Those are the main reasons I will buy an HD-DVD player!" The jump from VHS to SD DVD I feel is bigger than the jump from SD DVD to HD DVD. I'm not talking about the pic/sound quality; I'm talking about the disc vs tape format and the convenience of skipping chapters with a click of a button and not needing to rewind/fast forward a darn tape. Also, the durability of a disc vs a tape.

I'm very interested to see how well HD DVDs will be marketed and how the general public responds. Even though SD DVD players dropped in price much much faster than VCRs back in the day, it still took some time for it to be affordable to the general public. And I feel affordable for the general public is less than $250.

The general public can care less just like with DVD-A and SACD. We are the ones supporting this stuff.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

As for sound, the new DD++ HD lossless sound format for both new HD disc formats is interesting. I am eager to try it out, as my preamp already has the decoding ability for that particular signal on the new discs. I wonder if there will be a good music application for the format as well? Maybe that is why SACD is not on the Blu-Ray specs?

I just wanted to note that no processor currently on the market has no provisions for any of the new formats. Currently DD codecs do not have the processing power to handle DD HD or DD+. If an analog output is utilized for its output, then perhaps via your analog inputs you could handle the signal. However no current processor will be able to do it digitally.

As far as the demise of SACD and DVD Audio. These technologies never provided a real increase in sound quality because few players provided digital connections, and even fewer have decent bass management. I won't even get into the lack of material or the premium you pay for a perceived better resolution

Actually if you had a system consisted of 5 full range speakers and a sub, with all speakers set to large, even through the analog inputs you would hear a VERY noticeable quality different when comparing the multichannel SACD to its CD counterpart. Avoiding the conversion of the DSD bitstream to PCM is key to hearing the quality of SACD. If you have placed your speakers equidistance from the listening position, have all speakers to large, sub on, this is the only way that this is possible. When properly setup, and avoiding any uneccesary processing, SACD and DVD-A can sound absolutely glorious.

[drseid]

I just wanted to note that no processor currently on the market has no provisions for any of the new formats. Currently DD codecs do not have the processing power to handle DD HD or DD+. If an analog output is utilized for its output, then perhaps via your analog inputs you could handle the signal. However no current processor will be able to do it digitally.

Actually, that information came directly from Cary over the phone... They said that while they do not publish the specs, their processor (in the Cinema 6) can indeed decode the DD++ signal. As for the new HD-DTS format, that is another story...

---Dave

[edtyct]

I'm more than happy to provide testimony that SACD (and, to a lesser extent, DVD-A) via analog output can be absolutely stunning. Actually, I find it hard to listen to red book CD in the face of it.

[westcott]

[QUOTE=Actually if you had a system consisted of 5 full range speakers and a sub, with all speakers set to large, even through the analog inputs you would hear a VERY noticeable quality different when comparing the multichannel SACD to its CD counterpart.

Avoiding the conversion of the DSD bitstream to PCM is key to hearing the quality of SACD. If you have placed your speakers equidistance from the listening position, have all speakers to large, sub on, this is the only way that this is possible. When properly setup, and avoiding any uneccesary processing, SACD and DVD-A can sound absolutely glorious.[/QUOTE]


I would say very few of us have TRUE full range speakers and subwoofer sales are the proof.

"avoiding any unecessary processsing" like not converting it to analog and providing a digital link between the receiver and the player?

Here is a link(s) that I think you will find interesting.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...udioSACD12.php

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...AudioSACD2.php

Cheers!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

[QUOTE=westcott]

I would say very few of us have TRUE full range speakers and subwoofer sales are the proof.

"avoiding any unecessary processsing" like not converting it to analog and providing a digital link between the receiver and the player?

Here is a link(s) that I think you will find interesting.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...udioSACD12.php

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...AudioSACD2.php

Cheers!

Actually both articles have been on the net for quite a while. The are some very important points that both articles leave out. How the mixes are actually done. What rules that most recording engineers use to mix multichannel audio(like don't put deep bass in the center channel), and if you didn't use bass use bass management at all. The article creates some scenario's that are so scares as not to be mentioned as a problem(like the LFE channel being used as a overhead channel). I still assert that if you can place your speakers equidistant, require no bass management(all speakers large with a subwoofer), and have proper volume control over all of your speakers(both of my SACD/DVD-V players have) is the only way to hear the true qualities of both high rez formats. Especially if you keep the DSD stream unprocessed until D/A conversion. If you check some of the current universal or SACD enabled DVD players now adays, they go pretty far in addressing the authors concerns.

[E-Stat]

When properly setup, and avoiding any uneccesary processing, SACD and DVD-A can sound absolutely glorious.

Agreed. The problem with Redbook is at the top, not the bottom. What does bass management have to do with the recording medium anyway?

rw