Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 33
  1. #1
    AR Newbie Registered Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    1

    Help with helping a friend building a sound system

    Hi... new here and all that, trying to find some places to help me with this lil' project with me and my buddy. I'm not much of an audiophile, but he is. A pretty extreme one, most of the time.. However, he doesn't know all too much about sound systems and the like, so I decided I'd help him shop about on the internet.

    He gave me a few guidelines:

    max of $5,000, but in the $2,000 range much more preferable.
    prefers balanced sound. Like Sennheiser HD-600 headphones.
    Starting with 2.1 - good idea?
    PC with FLAC music will be the main source of music
    Used mainly for music.. movies too. Surround can still be added later if that's preferable, though.
    Would like a reciever that's not TOO expensive, but good, and upgradeable.
    Music is mostly the important thing, above all else
    "Absolutely the main thing. I'll play movies through it too, and as long as it's balanced anyways, it shouldn't matter, it should be good for both.", he says
    Room is about 14 Feet by 12 Feet.
    Connections.. HDMI isn't important, but if it's there, great! Component is a bit more important.. and at least two optical ports are needed, but three would be ideal.
    He wants me to emphasize balanced sound. Especially in relation to bass. Nothing boomy.

    Hope you guys can help! Links would be nice also, if you can provide em!
    Thanks a bunch

  2. #2
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    tuscaloosa
    Posts
    5,528

    Cool

    I have tried to build a compromise HT and audio system and failed miserably.
    My suggestion is a really nice 2 channel audio rig, with a decent preamp that has a line input you can hook a DVD up to.
    Movies through a 2 channel rig can sound quite good, you just dont get the effects of surround.
    But an audiophile grade surround system? You're talkin megabucks.
    Get a nice 2 channel system, and eventually use it for the front left and right of a surround system, both seperate but together.
    You will have to adjust the vollume independently , which is a hassle, but its the only way to join a HT and a AUDIO system.
    You can buy a "high end" receiver with two speakers, planning to add others later, but
    its not going to be audiophile grade no matter how much you spend.
    A receiver can sound "great", but there is "great" and there is "audiophile"
    BTW HDMI is important, they are phasing out component for copywrite reasons.
    if you get a pre-pro with the idea of starting a HT later, you will need HDMI,
    trust me
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  3. #3
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    198

    Smile

    Hi otimus.

    Well 5K will limit your options, plus you're also limted as to what you can get in
    your area.

    There's also the option to buy from e-bay, buy a tradein unit from a hifi store. Sound
    coming from the PC sounds like like mp3's, wav files etc, as opposed to a full on
    CD/SACD player. I can tell you from experience, a great system (including speakers
    that provide great imaging) will show you a great produced CD from a bad one. The former
    will produce a better sound of your music than mp3. Most people have a CD/SACD/DVD
    Audio collection of their favourite music. There's more than do, than do not. I'm not saying
    you cannot get great mp3/wav sound, they are, after all ripped from CDs at one stage,
    so it's not like you can produce better than the original. Don't mistake dynamics, than
    detail directly off the disc.

    Well more of the nicer Class A amps are going to be out of your price range, or will
    leave you very little money left for anything else.

    Class B are more likely to be from specific brands, and receivers.

    Options for a good price or at least worth auditioning...

    Cambridge Audio 640R - AV receiver. All the inputs you need, except balanced in.
    Balanced in is of no use to you unless you get a balance out source, like a CD
    player. It has plenty of inputs, 7.1 input for speakers, opticals ins, 3x HDMI ins,
    1 HDMI out, it also has component just in case you may need them.

    You didn't say if you were going to get a CD/universal disc player in the 5K budget or
    if your mate is getting that later. A universal disc player is probably going to be your
    most cost-effective option. Otherwise you must buy two seperate units.

    NAD Master Series digital disc player M55. This has HDMI out, however cannot scan
    in 1080. Download the manual, take a look for the features. It allows 5.1 outs. This
    has optical out, vga out, component, video, scart/rgb, s-video, and coaxal outs.
    It played CD, SACD, DVD-A, DVD-video, and upscales.

    Parasound D3 Universal disc player. In the manual it states HDMI 1.1, not 1.3, but
    the HD media is 1.1 for now, it only becomes a concern later this year, if you needed
    1 reason not to buy this player. An upgrade may be available for this model, not sure.
    This one has Balanced out, 5.1 channel outs, component, s-video outs. there's a
    section in the manual that shows you exactly how you want to play your discs,
    i.e. scan in HDMI to any i or p setting, this player can access both 2 channel and
    multichannel layers for SACD. Not all SACD capable players can access all 3 layers
    of a hybrid disc.

    This player will also adjust it's playback depending on how many speakers you have,
    what types/sizes they are, and distance from each other etc. If it's a bit hard to change
    this from the receiver/amp to change those settings, at least with this player, you can
    simply use your remote to change such settings to suit your needs.

    This player also lets you change the crossover settings, best read that chapter
    but it is handy as it can compensate/adjust to any room size. That player has a serious
    good range of features you can set up. I'd highly recommend you read the manual.
    It will be at least a good comparison to other universal disc players. It will be hard to
    beat, feature-wise, and flexibility, which by definition is what a "universal player" should be.


    If you like the Cambridge Audio options, then you may find it more advantagous to
    purchase the source, other amp etc, as Cambridge Audio also.

    I.E. The Cambridge Audio 740C and 840C both have a CD upscaler from 16 bit 44kHz
    to 24 bit 384 kHz. Most people who have auditioned and own it, swear by it, a great
    player. These will NOT play SACD or DVD-A, DVD. There is a DVD-99, which will
    address the DVD bit, but take a look on the website and see if they are suitable.
    They are cheaper than the other brands, so overall this will be more affordable, you may
    be able to get 2 to 3 of this brand within the 5K budget. I'd get some more details
    for you, but the official website is officially down right now lol.

    Yeah if your buddy is a real insane serious audiophile, hmmm yeah better to actually
    audition the Class A amps, and get him to listen to the quality. For example, I listened
    McIntosh, and the detail was really incredible. The 1K, 1.5K options sound good for
    their prices, but just do not come close to McIntosh. That brand IS pricey, but you may
    pay for the name, there's more good feedback from owners, than not. I've yet to hear
    bad feedback from actual owners of McIntosh. Best let your own ears be the judge.

    Some receivers when you're auditioning them may sound a little too "bright". There are
    good reasons why some brands can build amps/receivers so cheap. Your own ears
    must be the judge, then at least you can trim out which options you can live without,
    if like he said, "Music is mostly the important thing, above all else".

    Audition the 3K + brands/amps. McIntosh, Parasound, Plinius, NAD Master Series.

    Worse-case scenario he loves all the above 3K+ options, but cannot afford them,
    then at least he has somewhere to start, then audition the cheaper ones, and work
    out what quality is missing, weigh it up with cost, then go with that. I'd recommend
    to take your sweet time, audition plenty of brands, and bring over the same favourite
    CDs/SACDs for each audition. The really good setups, amps, sources will reveal
    greater detail from the disc, you'll be able to hear the subtlties, additional instuments,
    voices, that are missing in the cheaper brands/components.

    If your buddy is unlucky and MUST have a particular component, if there's no budget
    left for anything else, he might be lucky to stike a deal to layby/budget for 2 or 3
    components over 6 months or whatever, with a discount from the same shop. It is in their
    best interest to keep your business, they want to sell you components which will
    compliment other ones you buy from them.

    You can google for the official brand sites to download the manuals. You are doing
    yourself a massive disservice by NOT reading the manual before buying a component.
    If your buddy is sly, he will download, print and read the manual of a model before a first
    visit of the shop that stocks it, or just after the first visit, but before the second visit.
    Always ask the same questions to test the sales staff knowledge, at least you will know
    which ones know their stuff, and which ones are full of porky pies.

    PM me to let me know how you go.
    Current System :

    Xindak XA8800MNE Mono Block Power Amplifier
    Cambridge Audio 840E Pre Amplifier
    Cambridge Audio 840C CD Player and DAC
    Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MK-II
    Pioneer DVR-640H (250 GB HDD)
    Foxtel Digital
    Samsung LCD 40in LA40M81BDX
    Sony PS 3 (source - CD/SACD/DVD/Blu-Ray)
    XLO Interconnects & speaker cables
    Sonos Wireless Music System

    Upgrade Path :

    1. Power regulation system

  4. #4
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659
    He should set a budget for speakers, determine how many speakers he wants to buy now, and start auditioning them. Remember, speakers for a MC music system should be "matched" and if he only buys a front R/L pair now, there's no guarantee the matching center and surrounds will be available next year.

    Use well recorded music as the litmus test. Once he decides on speakers, the rest will fall into place.

  5. #5
    way up in Canada eh f0rge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    413
    in the $2k budget i'd look at an onkyo tx-sr805 receiver and b&w 683 speakers. if he doesn't like how the b&w's sound then look at the paradigm monitor line, the 9's specifically.

    that would set you up nicely for a 2 channel system, later add a center, then a sub, then surrounds.

    $5k budget opens up a whole other realm of possibilities...i think ozzie covers that pretty well.
    Home Theatre:
    50" Panasonic TH-50PZ77
    Denon AVR-3808CI
    B&W 603 S3
    B&W LCR600 S3
    Paradigm Cinema ADP v.3
    SVS PB12-NSD
    Xbox 360 250GB
    Playstation 3 60GB
    Explorer 8300HD PVR 320GB
    Netgear ReadyNAS NV+ 8TB
    Harmony One

    2-Channel:
    Paradigm Studio 20 v.5
    NAD C320BEE
    NAD C521BEE

  6. #6
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    Posts
    5,421
    I agree, look at a HT receiver like the Onlkyo 605,705, 805's or the Denon 2808CI or 3808CI's The denons have computer interfaces. Also consider NAD HT receivers. These receivers will give good 2ch sound and allow you to move into HT when your ready. My preference would be NAD but it is the most expensive of the bunch. If you want to do separate amp and preamp look at www.outlawaudio.com.

    For speakers consider the B&W 683's or NHT Classic 4's, Paradigms and PSB's. The NHT Classic 4's will have the warmest sound and won't necessarily need a sub because they have a 10" side firing woofer and a 6.5" front woofer.

    For a sub, I would consider the Velodyne SPL series, Martin Logan Dynamo which is excellent for music and has no boom or muddiness, REL subs from www.sumikoaudio.net. All these subs are non-ported and will give nice crisp bass.


    For a CD/DVD player, you could consider a universal player like tha Marantz DV7001 or the Oppo 983. If you wanted to go with a separate CDP and DVDP then look at the Marantz SA8001 SACDP, Cambridge Audio 740c, Rega Apollo, Music Hall 25.2 which would be the cheapest. For a DVD player look at the Oppo 981 or 983 (www.oppodigital.com)
    Last edited by blackraven; 04-15-2008 at 08:27 AM.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  7. #7
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    France
    Posts
    2,523
    Check out Cambridge Audio's 640R receiver.

  8. #8
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    I would do something like this.

    This pre-pro for $700 - http://www.emotiva.com/mmc1.html
    This 2 channel amp for $800 - http://www.emotiva.com/xpa2.html
    This multi-channel amp for $500 - http://emotiva.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=5
    These main speakers for $1900 - http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop...mart&Itemid=37
    These surround speakers for $500 - http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop...mart&Itemid=37
    This center speaker for $450 - http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop...mart&Itemid=37
    You shouldn't need a sub if TV and movies are not a prime concern. One could be added later if things change.

    Total of $4850 not counting speaker wire & connectors.


    But that's just me. Audio equipment is a very personal thing. What one person thinks is great is another man's crap.

    You really should start going to audio shops in your area. Listen to as many different products as you can. Then decide what you/he likes best.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    Posts
    5,421
    If your more commited to spending around 2K here are some idea's

    Onkyo TX SR605 HT receiver for $389 from amazon
    Oppo 983 DVD/SACD for $399 this player has gotten great reviews as a DVD and CD player
    B&W 683 floor standers for $1500 or NHT Classic 4's for $1,100-1500

    If you want to add a sub Mirage S8 for $350, Martin Logan Dynamo for $599

    If you want to do a separate DVD and CD player then the Oppo 981HD DVD for about $200
    and either the Music Hall 25.2 CDP for $540, Cambridge Audio 640c for $600 or the Marantz SA8001 SACD for $800

    For an inexpensive 2ch receiver with high current and plenty of power (120wpc) with preamp out, look at the HK 3485 for about $250 on sale. It a bargain at this price. Good sound with plenty of power and high current design.

    Or consider the Outlaw Audio RR2150 receiver with bass management and preamp outs for $600.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  10. #10
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    tuscaloosa
    Posts
    5,528

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile
    Hi otimus.

    Well 5K will limit your options, plus you're also limted as to what you can get in
    your area.

    There's also the option to buy from e-bay, buy a tradein unit from a hifi store. Sound
    coming from the PC sounds like like mp3's, wav files etc, as opposed to a full on
    CD/SACD player. I can tell you from experience, a great system (including speakers
    that provide great imaging) will show you a great produced CD from a bad one. The former
    will produce a better sound of your music than mp3. Most people have a CD/SACD/DVD
    Audio collection of their favourite music. There's more than do, than do not. I'm not saying
    you cannot get great mp3/wav sound, they are, after all ripped from CDs at one stage,
    so it's not like you candetail directly off the disc. produce better than the original. Don't mistake dynamics, than


    THIS is totally wrong.
    Flac or other lossless codecs, played through a proper usb DAC or soundcard
    can sound every bit as good as a high end CD player.
    This is what I am using now, as a matter of fact.
    The above statement is coming from the viewpoint that all computer music is cheap MP3
    or WMA off of the internet. nothing could be further from the truth.
    That is why "music" servers are popping up all over the place, including from Cambridge.
    They are nothing more than overpriced computers playing tunes off of a HD.
    It doesnt matter if the bitstream comes from a CD or a HD, its going to sound the same.
    In fact, some argue that a lossless signal (like flac) from a computer is better
    than a CD, as there are no playback issues, and they are a lot more convienient.
    This is why some think the days of the CD are numbered, btw
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  11. #11
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    down there
    Posts
    6,852
    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    THIS is totally wrong.
    Flac or other lossless codecs, played through a proper usb DAC or soundcard
    can sound every bit as good as a high end CD player.
    This is what I am using now, as a matter of fact.
    The above statement is coming from the viewpoint that all computer music is cheap MP3
    or WMA off of the internet. nothing could be further from the truth.
    That is why "music" servers are popping up all over the place, including from Cambridge.
    They are nothing more than overpriced computers playing tunes off of a HD.
    It doesnt matter if the bitstream comes from a CD or a HD, its going to sound the same.
    In fact, some argue that a lossless signal (like flac) from a computer is better
    than a CD, as there are no playback issues, and they are a lot more convienient.
    This is why some think the days of the CD are numbered, btw
    Um, no it's not totally wrong. I agree that FLAC and other lossless codecs will one day be reproduced via computer with an efficiency every bit as impressive as high end units, but we're not there yet.

    As of yet there aren't any standalone soundcards that get the job done and, while constantly improving, USB DACS are in there infancy. I had the Scott Nixon Tube DAC at the house for a week last year and regret not keeping it. Very serviceable...but not top of the line.

    Music servers like the Olive, though expensive, bring something to the table that no PC can compete with---a great reduction in fan noise. I would be highly interested to hear HermanV's setup. I can imagine that being a system that would set the paradigm for the future.

    I think that lossless files will be the future of the industry but I think it's a stretch to say we're there at this point.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  12. #12
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    198
    pixelthis : you best choose your words before blasting at someone's comments.

    Just where in my post did I say CD/SACD is always better than the flac (and other
    lossless) format ?

    [pixelthis]
    In fact, some argue that a lossless signal (like flac) from
    a computer is better than a CD, as there are no playback issues, and they
    are a lot more convienient.
    That is so funny, where do you think many flac files come from ? Media, such as CD.

    A computer will have NO Playback issues ? That's hilarious. The following can cause
    these playback issues when files are played on a PC instead of a dedicated CD
    player :

    1. The PC has too many applications opened simitanously
    2. The PC is low or out of disc space
    3. The PC is has been infected by certain forms of virii and spyware
    4. The PC has windows installed at all hahaa.
    5. The PC is unstable, has key system files removed or corrupted
    6. The PC is below minimim spec
    7. The PC Blue Screens of Death
    8. The PC /server has been set up the wrong way
    9. An incorrect version of software has been installed
    10. The software has been installed the wrong way

    I'm assuming you have not lost your memory when I said "can" cause these
    playback issues.

    Put a proper dedicated CD player in front of you, plug it in, switch it on and
    put in a normal CD. Just how many on that list of 10 apply to such a CD player?

    Let's see NONE !!.

    [pixelthis]
    This is why some think the days of the CD are numbered, btw
    Again... that is an argument structure coming from purely one angle only, there is a
    bigger picture than "convenience".

    How do you think music companies make money ? They release CDs, DVDs, then
    rerelease more versions, heck even Elvis is releasing another greatest hits CD as I
    write this post. Despite the folks who believe cd stores will close down because it
    will be all taken over by flac servers, i-tune stores etc, fail to realise just how many
    people DO NOT own a Pc, and many will never do so. On the contrary there are still
    many vinyl users out there who are loyal to it.

    Does one believe that Sony, BMG, and all of the other major music companies are
    going to simply close shop because everything's going to go on Windows Servers ?
    Right, who's going to pay for all the musicians to perform their music ? Yeah I'm sure
    you will pay their music contracts.

    I walk into Cd stores once a week and noticed that there's literally 1000's of people lining
    up to buy a CD, DVD, or other form of music/game in some packaging. Hmmm no
    doesn't look like CD is very dead to me. Didn't look more dead this year than last year.

    iTunes and similar companies that store music for the consumer to pay per song
    (let's say for legitimate purposes), will only continue to do so as long as they make
    increasing profits every year. For that to happen CD, DVD sales will have to keep
    going down.

    Should CD retail shops all over the world to close down the following must
    happen :

    1. All music companies will have to cease contracts to produce music onto CD, and
    stick the on "flac" servers instead.

    2. All audio component companies must cease their R&D and stop making CD/SACD,
    DVD-Audio, and Universal Disc players.

    3. All music companies must no longer be able to justify their 1c per CD cost for their
    1500% profits. Hmmm yeah this 1c really is far too expensive.

    4. The markup for music on flac servers (or other lossless format servers), is more likely
    to be lower than 1500% so many music artists in the world (as little as they get paid
    already, may have to keep their day jobs flipping burgets).

    5. 90% of the people who can afford to buy CDs, must stop buying CDs forever.
    That is like asking 90% of the world to stop buying chocolate.

    Maybe in your world everyone will own a PC, sit in front of monitor, and listen to flac
    files one day. Yeah I'm sure someone will give all third world people in the world a PC,
    and monitor, or a flac file player, and over 90% of people can be persuaded that there is
    no appeal of reading a CD booklet, taking a look at what the artist looks like, reading the
    lyrics, when all that they will have from now on is their iPod-ish flac player.

    Arguments such as yours come from the same type of people from CD owners back in
    1982 who said that LP's will be dead.

    I do not disagree that Flac on servers etc won't do well in the music market, and improve
    on their popularity, but to take over and own CDs ? PLEASE !!!

    2004, worldwide sales of CD audio, CD-ROM, and CD-R reached about 30 billion discs. 2007, 200 billion CDs had been sold worldwide.

    I believe your "some would say" CD days are numbered, will need to remember to
    take their medication.

    Sorry YOU LOSE Mr Flac.
    Last edited by OzzieAudiophile; 04-16-2008 at 08:27 AM.
    Current System :

    Xindak XA8800MNE Mono Block Power Amplifier
    Cambridge Audio 840E Pre Amplifier
    Cambridge Audio 840C CD Player and DAC
    Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MK-II
    Pioneer DVR-640H (250 GB HDD)
    Foxtel Digital
    Samsung LCD 40in LA40M81BDX
    Sony PS 3 (source - CD/SACD/DVD/Blu-Ray)
    XLO Interconnects & speaker cables
    Sonos Wireless Music System

    Upgrade Path :

    1. Power regulation system

  13. #13
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    Posts
    5,421
    I dont think we will see the death of CD's any time soon. The audio quality of downloaded music may come to be as good as CD/SACD but the issue for me is storage and what happens when a hardrive die's. I dont want to have to have a large HD laying around with backed up music. I've had 3 high end hard drives die on me in the last several years and have had several corrupted.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  14. #14
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    tuscaloosa
    Posts
    5,528

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile
    pixelthis : you best choose your words before blasting at someone's comments.
    not "blasting" anything, just saying YOU were blasting music off of a server

    Just where in my post did I say CD/SACD is always better than the flac (and other lossless) format ?
    You were guilty of ommision, you left out Flac and ape, and mentioned stuff that
    isnt as good as CD


    [pixelthis]

    That is so funny, where do you think many flac files come from ? Media, such as CD.
    Thats where I ripped my Flac files from, which is why they are just as good

    A computer will have NO Playback issues ? That's hilarious. The following can cause these playback issues when files are played on a PC instead of a dedicated CD
    player :

    1. The PC has too many applications opened simitanously
    2. The PC is low or out of disc space
    3. The PC is has been infected by certain forms of virii and spyware
    4. The PC has windows installed at all hahaa.
    5. The PC is unstable, has key system files removed or corrupted
    6. The PC is below minimim spec
    7. The PC Blue Screens of Death
    8. The PC /server has been set up the wrong way
    9. An incorrect version of software has been installed
    10. The software has been installed the wrong way

    I'm assuming you have not lost your memory when I said "can" cause these
    playback issues.
    THESE ARENT "PLAYBACK" ISSUES, they are stupidity.
    I was afraid pauses would interfere with my music, played back in FLAC off of a USB drive,
    and that did happen occasionally.
    Now I just make sure everything is turned off, when I listen to my music I don't do anything else.
    None of the other "issues" are a problem to someone with a brain

    Put a proper dedicated CD player in front of you, plug it in, switch it on and put in a normal CD. Just how many on that list of 10 apply to such a CD player?
    Let's see NONE !!.
    [pixelthis]

    Scratches, skipping, dirt, CD "rot", how many apply to a computer?


    Again... that is an argument structure coming from purely one angle only, there is a
    bigger picture than "convenience".
    there is no bigger issue than "convienence".
    This is the most overlooked and least understood issue in home audio.
    Thats because most "audiophiles" refuse to admit it, but the phrase "out of sight, out of mind " applies to music.
    Sit your music on a shelf , lined up in there little jewel boxes, you will forget aabout most of it.
    Most play their newer stuff, the older stuff gets forgotten.
    But if its on a menu on your computer its more likely to stay in your mind, you will see it as you search through it.
    A friend never organizes his stuff, while setting up his HT in his new garden home, he
    walked up to me with a package wrapped in celopane, it was a stack of CD's, mostly robert cray. He had been searching for them forever.
    How you organize your libary is key to how much you enjoy it.
    This is why I like changers, I like to sit and listen to music not exercise by constantly getting up and changing discs.
    And a well built five disc changer can sound as good as a high buck single tray unit,
    like the changer from Marantz, for instance.
    And putting together a playlist on a computer means a lot of uninterrupted enjoyment



    How do you think music companies make money ? They release CDs, DVDs, then rerelease more versions, heck even Elvis is releasing another greatest hits CD as I
    write this post. Despite the folks who believe cd stores will close down because it
    will be all taken over by flac servers, i-tune stores etc, fail to realise just how many
    people DO NOT own a Pc, and many will never do so. On the contrary there are still
    many vinyl users out there who are loyal to it.
    Does one believe that Sony, BMG, and all of the other major music companies are
    going to simply close shop because everything's going to go on Windows Servers ?
    Right, who's going to pay for all the musicians to perform their music ? Yeah I'm sure
    you will pay their music contracts.
    I walk into Cd stores once a week and noticed that there's literally 1000's of people lining
    up to buy a CD, DVD, or other form of music/game in some packaging. Hmmm no
    doesn't look like CD is very dead to me. Didn't look more dead this year than last year.
    You dont need a computer anymore.
    In Japan the PC is becoming passe, the Japanese are using Ipods, PDA'S, cellfones,
    and other type devices to surf the web, download files, and text and email.
    They use USB drives to store things

    iTunes and similar companies that store music for the consumer to pay per song(let's say for legitimate purposes), will only continue to do so as long as they make
    increasing profits every year. For that to happen CD, DVD sales will have to keep
    going down
    .

    keep going down, which means they are going down.
    A CD was a pretty big deal when it came out, and it was a music playback system,
    then the CD rom app began, 650 mb was hugh, held all of the software on my first computer.
    Now, its a joke. 650 mb aint squat in a 30, 60, 80 gig Ipod world.
    I have a 30 gig player that has my entire collection for play in the car, or on the go
    Its the size of a pack of smokes

    Should CD retail shops all over the world to close down the following must happen :

    1. All music companies will have to cease contracts to produce music onto CD, and
    stick the on "flac" servers instead.

    2. All audio component companies must cease their R&D and stop making CD/SACD,
    DVD-Audio, and Universal Disc players.

    3. All music companies must no longer be able to justify their 1c per CD cost for their
    1500% profits. Hmmm yeah this 1c really is far too expensive.

    4. The markup for music on flac servers (or other lossless format servers), is more likely
    to be lower than 1500% so many music artists in the world (as little as they get paid
    already, may have to keep their day jobs flipping burgets).

    5. 90% of the people who can afford to buy CDs, must stop buying CDs forever.
    That is like asking 90% of the world to stop buying chocolate.
    The only thing "required" is that people stop buying CD'S, which they are doing in wholesale numbers.
    In the last few years we have had a half dozen record shops close down in town, and this is a college town.
    And the others are on life support.
    Open your eyes and take a look at the "real" world.
    As for the "markup ON SERVERS , what do you think the "markup" on a CD is?
    THEY COST 2.00 TO MAKE, thatss right, 2.00
    thats for marketing, pressing, artists, the gas to send em out on the truck.
    And the industry is having a hissy fit because walmart "only" wants to charge eight bucks,
    a markup of 400%.
    And dont forget that a lot of stuff is on that CD you bought that you dont want, you just wanted a few songs, so the actual price of those two songs or so is probably a lot larger
    than downloading.
    WHICH IS WHY DOWNLOADING IS TAKING OFF, AND cd SALES ARE TANKING

    Maybe in your world everyone will own a PC, sit in front of monitor, and listen to flac files one day. Yeah I'm sure someone will give all third world people in the world a PC,
    and monitor, or a flac file player, and over 90% of people can be persuaded that there is
    no appeal of reading a CD booklet, taking a look at what the artist looks like, reading the
    lyrics, when all that they will have from now on is their iPod-ish flac player.
    And these third world types have CD players?


    Arguments such as yours come from the same type of people from CD owners back in 1982 who said that LP's will be dead.
    I was one of those people, and I was RIGHT.
    The only records today are specialty issues and they cost a fortune, and the "analog"
    sound from these "records " usually comes from digital masters



    I do not disagree that Flac on servers etc won't do well in the music market, and improve on their popularity, but to take over and own CDs ? PLEASE !!!
    More likely some form of WMA lossless, or Apple lossless
    PEOPLE ARE LIKE DINOSAURS, THEY NEVER NOTICE THE ASTEROID HAS HIT.
    For CD, its here, its just a matter of time.
    And I HATE IT, I love CD

    2004, worldwide sales of CD audio, CD-ROM, and CD-R reached about 30 billion discs. 2007, 200 billion CDs had been sold worldwide.
    TELL THAT to former makers of CRT television sets, ask them if they thought in 2002
    that a 32" crt TV be scarce as hens teeth in 2008.
    In 2006 I PRICED A 32IN VIZIO FOR A GRAND AT sams club, sitting alonside it was a 32in sdtv from somy, and a 30" widescreen from phillips, and several others.
    How many are there today, two years later?

    I believe your "some would say" CD days are numbered, will need to remember to take their medication
    .

    We'll be in line behind record company owners

    Sorry YOU LOSE Mr Flac.
    You sound like the Germans at the end of WWII, you lose allies!
    And then they blowed their brains out.
    YOU LOSE, as does anubody who underestimates the change that can happen in a market overnight
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  15. #15
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    We may have strayed a little off topic. But then again, the OP doesn't seem to be around anymore.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  16. #16
    _ Luvin Da Blues's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    _
    Posts
    1,951
    I'm still trying to figure out why his friend, the audiophile, is not here asking questions?
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  17. #17
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659

    Methinks someone was fishing.

    The two previous posts are exactly why I don't expend too much energy on these overly broad questions (2 - 5k, stereo or HT) without some direction along the way.

    I gave my input, which I believe is valid for the situation. now, it's up to them.

    It is fun to watch the brushfires that develop when people try to impress, though.

  18. #18
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    The two previous posts are exactly why I don't expend too much energy on these overly broad questions (2 - 5k, stereo or HT) without some direction along the way.

    I gave my input, which I believe is valid for the situation. now, it's up to them.

    It is fun to watch the brushfires that develop when people try to impress, though.
    I'm thinking that the OP just drove by and tossed a lit match out his window. It doesn't look like he's even looked back to see the fire he started.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  19. #19
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    198
    [pixelthis]
    not "blasting" anything, just saying YOU were blasting music off of a server
    Blasting a technology/method is not quite the same as blasting someone personally.
    Not a good point if you have to sidestep what you're trying to argue.

    [pixelthis]
    You were guilty of ommision, you left out Flac and ape, and mentioned stuff that
    isnt as good as CD
    My orginal point was not intended to list every format that has been out, and will be
    out, it would of taken days to write.

    Your normal normal method of operation is to look for absolutely anything that anyone
    has missed in any post and have a go is it ? Rather than provide actual constructive
    criticism ?

    [pixelthis]
    THESE ARENT "PLAYBACK" ISSUES, they are stupidity.
    Of course the original points affect "Playback", stupid or not, people are still most
    capable of doing the above, no matter how much their love to store their precious
    flac (or any other music) files onto their PC.

    So what ? Scratch on CD ? you can rule that as stupidity. Many CD players are
    still capable of playing CDs that have scratches on them. As if the CD players will
    cheese-grate CDs. It's not even surface scratches which cause CD players to skip,
    more than the dirt/grime on the disc. However it doesn't occur to some people to
    keep their discs clean. It even states in some CD player manuals to advise the
    owner to keep their discs clean, with even instructions on how to wipe them.

    Troubleshooting sections raise some checkpoints to handle stupidity issues.

    I.e. No power on CD player.

    1. Check that you have plugged in the player.
    2. Check that you have pressed the power button on the front panel to the on position.

    Anyone who's at least half knowledgable with Windows know that Microsoft's largest
    group of software testers are "the end consumer". That's what patches and service
    packs are for. The help file is althrough improving, but many errors give the
    user the option to "send to Microsoft", which is as helpful as putting a bush fire out with
    a can of petrol.

    Just how is a Blue Screen of Death - Stupidity ? Just how in the world are you supposed
    to avoid every possible type of Blue Screen of Death occurance ? Your point is based
    that software and hardware on a PC will NEVER break down, or become damaged.

    blackraven raised a good point - Hard drive failure, as much care you can take, when
    those go, you risk losing much more, than some lousy scratches on 1 CD, where
    only the songs on that CD are affected instead of the rest of your music collection.

    Kodak have released archival CDs and DVDs that claim files copied on there will
    last 300 years for CD, 100 for DVD. Certainly 99% longer than some other dodgy
    brands. There are also many other formats and alturnatives to hard drive, many that
    are more stable than hard drives.


    [pixelthis]
    I was afraid pauses would interfere with my music, played back in FLAC off of a USB drive,
    and that did happen occasionally.
    You will get plenty of causes for pauses of reading music off PCs and/or streaming
    files off the net, or networked PC/Server. Pretty much some of those cause are
    the ones I listed above.

    Played FLAC off a USB drive, haha, USB. I'll leave that to you to figure it out for yourself
    how to fix that. And NO not by necessarily changing to CD instead.

    [pixelthis]
    None of the other "issues" are a problem to someone with a brain
    And taking at least reasonable care of your CDs, DVDs, anything on disc does NOT
    apply to someone with a brain ?

    There's many ways to mistreat, and not take care to store discs in their cases etc.
    For many people who have a large CD collection, most would take at least some
    reasonable care of their discs because they value the time/money they spent buying them
    Should they encounter a disc which is unplayable on their player, that's 1 in 100, or 1000.
    Even then, that doesn't mean that disc cannot play on another player.

    There are even disc scratch repairers and cleaners.

    Your argument is justifying that disc players should be robust enough to play a
    disc regardless on how the discs themselves are mistreated by the user, that
    the problem will always be the player, never the user.

    That is the same as saying you should still be able to start your car and drive
    down to the shop regardless on how poor condition you've kept the engine.

    Whilst at the same time any flac setup will be more reliable and stable, and that
    if it doesn't work, it's "stupidity".

    No matter how good you claim your flac files are, or any other file you can rip off
    a disc, no matter how technology progresses, there element of "stupidity" will always
    be there. You can always count of computer illiterate people who make "stupidity"
    mistakes than a CD player skip a section of 1 disc due to a bad scratches, and
    dirt.

    [pixelthis]
    Scratches, skipping, dirt, CD "rot",
    So you actually expect every CD player to actually play a totally "rotted" CD ?

    That's the same expectation from people whinge to their mechanic as to why
    their car has broken down. Then it is found that they never changed their oil and
    filter.

    [pixelthis]
    there is no bigger issue than "convienence".
    Sorry, you cannot speak for everyone on this planet. Not everyone is going to throw
    away their precious CD, DVD, Vinyl, cassette collections just to buy an iPodish
    flac player. Go ahead, to your backyard start a fire and throw your disc collections in.

    [pixelthis]
    Most play their newer stuff, the older stuff gets forgotten.
    You obviously never met a vinyl enthusiast. Try to convince them that their vinyl is
    worthless, here's a flac drive, use this, they'll send their dogs on you to rip that
    precious little flac drive to pieces.

    [pixelthis]
    This is the most overlooked and least understood issue in home audio.
    There will always be overlooked and least understood issues in home audio, regardless
    on what the issue is.

    Not everyone will be totally aware of every issue, technology in home audio.
    I'm sure a large proportion of home audio people find that their priority is mainly
    listening pleasure.

    How that is achieved due to equipment is one thing, as long as they have their
    means to listen to their music, where it sits on the shelf, or what sector in their
    PC, doesn't matter to them.

    [pixelthis]
    This is why I like changers, I like to sit and listen to music not exercise by constantly getting up and changing discs.
    With the increasing proportion of overweight and obese people in the world, it would
    do them a favour if they got up and changed discs haha.

    [pixelthis]
    And a well built five disc changer can sound as good as a high buck single tray unit
    CAN ? sometimes. Always ? definately not. Most of the highest quality CD players
    are single disc players as opposed to disc changers. Research the build on the top
    end models you will notice they are heavier, better quality circuitary, and more circuitary
    is used due to the more space available in the unit, which is not taken up by the rest
    of the tray.

    When was the last time you actually saw a 400+1 CD changer listed as the "best
    quality" CD playing in a year ? You probably better just keep on searching.

    [pixelthis]
    You dont need a computer anymore.
    In Japan the PC is becoming passe, the Japanese are using Ipods, PDA'S, cellfones,
    and other type devices to surf the web, download files, and text and email.
    They use USB drives to store things
    Dude where on earth do you think "how" those files get transfered to all those USB keys
    and drives ? TELEPATHY ??? No force of will !! that's it, no wait, you can buy a
    USB drive that already has your entire music collection on the shelf.

    PDAs, iPods, cellFONES all come with an installation CD, hmm I wonder what those
    are for, I'll play them on my CD player, because I expect my CD player to play Windows
    CD ROMs as well, and if it can't then CD players are crap, I'll cut into pieces so I can
    squeeze them into my flac player slot.

    You actually need a means to transfer the music onto the blank usb drive/key, or
    phone in the first place.

    One needs software to be installed on a "PC", to "transfer" their files onto their USB
    drive, or phone. Yes you could just dial up your phone company and pay for each
    song, I'm sure that is the cheapest option to get music onto your phone.

    Oh that's it, nooo that's not necessary, I can do that via e-mail. Let's see do I need a PC
    for that ? Nooo I'll e-mail without using a PC, and even if I was able to do that, I'd have the
    expectation that the rest of the world can use the same method also.

    [pixelthis]
    keep going down, which means they are going down.
    Nope, you've missed quoted what I said.

    30 GB, 60 GB etc, will be nothing in 10 years time. 1 TB will be nothing in 20.

    Good chance that space on a disc will be irrelavant in 20 years time, when there
    are technologies beyond drives.

    Watch Red vs Blue there's an episode on technology, they pretty much have
    addressed that topic well.

    [pixelthis]
    In the last few years we have had a half dozen record shops close down in town,
    and this is a college town. And the others are on life support.
    Just because your town is having cd shops close down doesn't dictate the
    music world economy.

    There's a good reason why some close down, and that is competition. The larger
    shops attract customers to theirs because they can sell it cheaper. At the end
    of the day customers like to pay less, it goes the same with supermarkets.
    The larger market chains also have the power and money to bully the smaller shops
    into closing down using legal/scare tactics.

    You also forget the tens of 1000's of websites where you can buy CDs/DVDs, etc
    online. Many of them make good profits and sales. There are less overheads, so they
    can afford to offer discounts.

    [pixelthis]
    Open your eyes and take a look at the "real" world.
    No it's your eyes that are shut, and praying that your little precious USB drives and
    flac players take over the world, and that CD dies tomorrow, don't hold your breath.

    [pixelthis]
    And the industry is having a hissy fit because walmart "only" wants to charge eight bucks,
    a markup of 400%.
    Shops can charge whatever they want. Same as supermarkets for groceries. Some
    shops will undercharge their items to bring in more customers, which is taking away
    businesses from smaller shops, which can be a contributing factor to why they
    are closing down (including your area).

    Yes downloads are increasing, but a lot of music is downloaded "illegally".

    [pixelthis]
    I was one of those people, and I was RIGHT.
    The only records today are specialty issues and they cost a fortune, and the "analog"
    sound from these "records " usually comes from digital masters
    Dead depends on your definition, companies will still produce vinyl, because there are
    just too many vinyl owners. YOUNG as well as old. Many Dj's use vinyl, and they
    are not baby boomers.

    Much music come from digital masters, regardless on what format you are finally
    listening to, whether it is vinyl, CD, or flac. The fact that CD is transfered from a
    digital Master, you convert your music from CD to flac, so in essence, it's a copy of a
    copy.

    [pixelthis]
    For CD, its here, its just a matter of time. And I HATE IT, I love CD
    It is more likely that every one of the audio review members will be dead way before
    the world stops making CDs.

    I love CDs also, I also have music on hard drives, I like both. I'd rather have both, if there
    is a problem with one, I have the other.

    The asteroid will hit with many things eventually. With CD however people are just
    not going to throw away their players, and CD collections, they spent way too much
    money for it. If you believe it is not worth having a CD collection because it's so much
    more "convenient" having a flac server/player, then you might as well throw away
    your flac servers/players because there are companies working right now to supercede
    that technology.

    The rate of technology increases, rise every year. We're all becoming dinosaurs sooner
    than we wish, I'd rather spend the remaining time I have on here enjoying listening to
    music, than worrying about when a certain technology is going to be replaced.

    Availability of CRT, smaller sized LCD, plasma etc, depends on the locale.
    Shops, websites have stock depending on what they can get, what they believe will
    get sales, at the time. In my area you can still get crt, and plasma. Many whingers
    on here argue that there's no point buying it because it's dead. Actually
    much LCT are more expensive than plasma of the same size, and crt tvs are even
    cheaper. People buy small crt, or disconintued products, because it's all that they
    can afford. Not everyone has the luxury to buy the latest and biggest.

    With the way the economy is going, and how greater job we know the government
    is at "fixing" the economy, there will always be a good proportion of people who
    cannot afford to buy the latest technology all of the time, so there will always be
    a low-end market.

    In addition since you've been around the block a few times, if you owned a crt
    tv in the past you would know it lasted a lot longer than the newer screens now.
    Just like a new car, there are more electronic parts, more things can go wrong.
    However the sad part about these tv screen making companies is that they can
    make their product a lot better, with better parts, and make their screens last
    longer. They choose not to do that because they want to make money. They'd
    see no sense in building tvs that would last 20 years. If they really wanted to do
    that, they'd have to charge a ridicious price to the consumer, which the majority
    just won't pay.

    [pixelthis]
    YOU LOSE, as does anubody who underestimates the change that can happen in a market overnight
    A change to stop making CDs, overnight, and for shops to stop selling them ?
    OVERNIGHT ? No, no one is going to believe that.

    There's no one sole company that decides the fate of the CD format, because there are too
    many companies.
    Current System :

    Xindak XA8800MNE Mono Block Power Amplifier
    Cambridge Audio 840E Pre Amplifier
    Cambridge Audio 840C CD Player and DAC
    Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MK-II
    Pioneer DVR-640H (250 GB HDD)
    Foxtel Digital
    Samsung LCD 40in LA40M81BDX
    Sony PS 3 (source - CD/SACD/DVD/Blu-Ray)
    XLO Interconnects & speaker cables
    Sonos Wireless Music System

    Upgrade Path :

    1. Power regulation system

  20. #20
    way up in Canada eh f0rge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    413
    holy crap that might be the longest post i've ever seen...

  21. #21
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by f0rge
    holy crap that might be the longest post i've ever seen...
    Do a search for posts from RGA.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  22. #22
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    tuscaloosa
    Posts
    5,528

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by f0rge
    holy crap that might be the longest post i've ever seen...

    then you havent been around HERE long.
    This post is NOTHING compared to when sir talky gets his massive ego revved up, why do you think I call him sir talky?

    AND the post where I ANSWER is gonna be twice as long
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  23. #23
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    tuscaloosa
    Posts
    5,528

    Cool

    AS soon as Shelby Lynn finishes with
    "I thought it would be easier"
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  24. #24
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    then you havent been around HERE long.
    This post is NOTHING compared to when sir talky gets his massive ego revved up, why do you think I call him sir talky?

    AND the post where I ANSWER is gonna be twice as long
    You two still got nothing over those RGA vs (pick someone) posts.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  25. #25
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659
    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    You two still got nothing over those RGA vs (pick someone) posts.
    How about Sir T vs. Beefy? My CRT ran out of ink on some of those!

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •