Data Color's Spyder TV calibration system, part 2

[edtyct]

Some time ago, I mentioned that I had one of these in-house and that I hoped to give it a go as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I still don't have the time to do it any justice. I also mentioned that I wouldn't be averse to lending it out to others for calibration purposes. I was thinking about it again today as my eyes chanced on it lying idle in my office. I'm not sure whether it's a good idea, for a number of reasons, or whether anyone would even want to bother with it. But I noticed venkman's post about calibration this morning, and the subject does come up regularly. AVMASTER, I think, was trying to become a Spyder dealer. Robert, I think, wanted to know if it would work with front projectors. Out of the box, no, but I haven't studied it enough to know whether it can be adapted.

At any rate, if I were to send it out, at least three criteria would have to be met:

(1) The person would have to be recognizable to me from this forum, say, with a minimum of posts (to be determined) and an address plainly on view for me to see. This strategy would be protection against someone joining the group just to run away with the Spyder system.

(2) I'd have to charge a small rental fee as further, even if inadequate, protection against theft or damage. No offense to anyone in the abstract, but the likelihood of anything in circulation surviving forever is pretty small. I'm thinking of a fee equivalent to DVE's lowest cost, possibly payable via PayPal as a cash transaction, which would also help to protect me. Obviously, shipping costs would also be the recipient's responsibility. I have a FedEx express (not ground) account, which I could use for those who'd like to work fast, or I could do a regular USPS parcel post. The total cost would be far less than the Spyder's $200 purchase price.

(3) Whoever uses it would be on their own. I don't have the time to do a tutorial. But the documentation and software are very comprehensive. The Spyder seems extremely easy to deploy. You just need a laptop or a desktop PC near your TV. If you don't have either, fuhgetaboutit.

What do you think about this idea? Does it have any value? Sir TT, what do you think about it? Wooch, Kexo, Topspeed, etc. ? If this kind of offer isn't appropriate to the forum in the first place, by all means have it retracted.

Ed

[Hairsonfire]

Ed, you gave me some very helpful advice a while back. I am the guy that recently bought the LG62SX4D DLP. Let's talk turkey. I live in Newport, Rhode Island and would love to give this a spin. How much "rental fee" are you talking about? Just let me know. Looking forward to hearing from you!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Some time ago, I mentioned that I had one of these in-house and that I hoped to give it a go as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I still don't have the time to do it any justice. I also mentioned that I wouldn't be averse to lending it out to others for calibration purposes. I was thinking about it again today as my eyes chanced on it lying idle in my office. I'm not sure whether it's a good idea, for a number of reasons, or whether anyone would even want to bother with it. But I noticed venkman's post about calibration this morning, and the subject does come up regularly. AVMASTER, I think, was trying to become a Spyder dealer. Robert, I think, wanted to know if it would work with front projectors. Out of the box, no, but I haven't studied it enough to know whether it can be adapted.

At any rate, if I were to send it out, at least three criteria would have to be met:

(1) The person would have to be recognizable to me from this forum, say, with a minimum of posts (to be determined) and an address plainly on view for me to see. This strategy would be protection against someone joining the group just to run away with the Spyder system.

(2) I'd have to charge a small rental fee as further, even if inadequate, protection against theft or damage. No offense to anyone in the abstract, but the likelihood of anything in circulation surviving forever is pretty small. I'm thinking of a fee equivalent to DVE's lowest cost, possibly payable via PayPal as a cash transaction, which would also help to protect me. Obviously, shipping costs would also be the recipient's responsibility. I have a FedEx express (not ground) account, which I could use for those who'd like to work fast, or I could do a regular USPS parcel post. The total cost would be far less than the Spyder's $200 purchase price.

(3) Whoever uses it would be on their own. I don't have the time to do a tutorial. But the documentation and software are very comprehensive. The Spyder seems extremely easy to deploy. You just need a laptop or a desktop PC near your TV. If you don't have either, fuhgetaboutit.

What do you think about this idea? Does it have any value? Sir TT, what do you think about it? Wooch, Kexo, Topspeed, etc. ? If this kind of offer isn't appropriate to the forum in the first place, by all means have it retracted.

Ed

Hey, even I wouldn't mind trying it. I was going to get one for myself, however I was waiting for somebody to tell me how well it works. If you don't mind the wear and tear that circulating this product will incur, I think it is a great idea.

[edtyct]

Hairsonfire, Sir TT,

That's great. It will be gratifying to put this thing to use. Maybe H can try it out first and then send it directly to Sir TT. The system has its own little case, which I'll box up. I'll download the software into my PC and copy the literature for myself. Maybe we can get this show on the road by Monday. Hairsonfire, I'll send you a PM later today so that we can arrange the rental fee and the shipping. Newport won't be much of a haul. You can work out a schedule with Sir TT. We'll see if anyone else gets involved.

Ed

[Hairsonfire]

I don't have a problem with giving you my info: My name is Kelly Williamson, work number is 401-841-7004. My "real" email is thomas.williamson@nwc.navy.mil. I work for the Naval War College here in Newport. Give me a ring! Terrence, looking forward to speaking to you, too (eventually).

[AVMASTER]

i think it's a great idea, i've contacted the company several times with a favorable response but still no merchandise. Send me a private e-mail with your rental cost.
thanks

[edtyct]

For those of you that I've PM'd and who may be interested in this project, I have asked Datacolor whether they would be willing to release the system software, totally under their control, to several other computers besides mine. The upside for them would be a review of the product that might reach a large number of potential buyers. I'll keep you posted here or by PM when they've decided.

[hmmmm]

For those of you that I've PM'd and who may be interested in this project, I have asked Datacolor whether they would be willing to release the system software, totally under their control, to several other computers besides mine. The upside for them would be a review of the product that might reach a large number of potential buyers. I'll keep you posted here or by PM when they've decided.

I had actually checked this out lately and would definately be interested for my DLP. I know you don't know me but I could send you my company's info if you wanted to check to see if you trust me. It could be sent to my business which has a good reputation. At least that's what I hear Paypal would be no problem.
Thanks!

[edtyct]

I have spoken about my collaborative review of the Spyder with Basak S. Atilgan, Product Manager, Datacolor's Home Theater products, who has offered full cooperation and technical information as necessary--and, more important, has authorized me to release the software to additional computers. So this project is officially a go. The illustrious Sir TT, Hairsonfire, and AVMASTER are already onboard. Mr. (I assume) hmmmm and others who want to enlist in the project should shoot me a PM, and we'll try to set something up. I may solicit a few people on this forum who seem particularly savvy about video technical matters. The best possible scenario will have a waiting list for the Spyder. I hope that we have enough interested people to actually require a cutoff, at least for the time being.

Ed

[topspeed]

That's a heckuva generous offer, Ed. My computer is in the office on the opposite side of the house, so it sounds like I'll have to take a pass. Lemme do some research as to what this thing is, and if it's as cool as you say, I'll try to borrow a laptop from someone.

Thanks again.

ts

[edtyct]

God Bless You, Westcott, for doing the heavy lifting. Maybe Jim and/or his designated successor will give us an update.

Ed

[L.J.]

The Spyder is on it's way to me, then I'm thinking Topspeed and SirTT will be the last for Cali. Unless someone else on this end steps up and gives this a run.

[L.J.]

I got the Spyder today. I won't even bother opening the box today and I'll just get to it tomorrow. I'll keep you guys posted.

Topspeed I'll PM you in a couple of days when I'm ready to ship it over.

[Jim Clark]

I got the Spyder today. I won't even bother opening the box today and I'll just get to it tomorrow. I'll keep you guys posted.

Topspeed I'll PM you in a couple of days when I'm ready to ship it over.

Wow, that was lightning fast. Glad it got there in good shape.

since I have a bit of time I'll type for a spell.

The tutorial DVD was informative and took all of the trepidation I had initially felt. It's rather odd though that the DVD is so poorly recorded. The images are among the fuzziest I've ever seen on a disc. Even when they are showing some of the screen captures it's very difficult to read the words. Given that this is a calibration disc, it just struck me as a bit odd. The information was all there and plainly spelled out though. Even a moron could do this, as I proved.

My laptop is ancient to the point that it stays in the kitchen and functions soley as a recipe book and address book. Needless to say there is no USB port on this thing. No worries, I have a third PC just laying around collecting dust so I just set it up in front of the TV's I was going to play around with. A laptop would have made the process more comfortable but you gotta do what you gotta do. I wasn't able to quickly get the wireless connection going so if there were updates to the software available, I didn't get to download them.

I also used a tripod for the sypder and found it to be a great way to do it. Even though, the suction cup still stuck to my LCD rear projection screen. I'd suggest sliding a piece of tissue paper between the cup and the screen if you're worried about possibly damaging the screen. Luckily I could detect no damage and since the other TV has a glass tube, it was a non-issue. The counter weight was difficult to adjust and I really had to yank on it to get it to slide. That made me nervous since the product wasn't mine and I really didn't want to have to buy Ed a new one. It was sturdy though and held up just fine. Finally, the room was darkened and everything more than warmed up.

So now I'll get into the actual deal here. My main display is a Sony KDF-55XS955 LCD rear projection set. It was previously calibrated using AVIA. I use the Pro Picture mode to have access to additional tweaks as well as lowering the bulb intensity and therefore extend the life of the bulb. During the first run I basically turned off all of the little tweaks and set picture mode to Standard. The results were poor especially were brightness (black level) was concerned. Spyder TV gives you some before/after images to use compare your results with the product. The first image is of a black panther and the cat was very hard to see. The setting was obviously incorrect (originally 31, changed to 17). The weakest aspect of RP LCD tv's is black level and this made everything worse.

Undaunted, I ran the process again going back to the Pro mode that I began with. This time things went much better. The first surprise is that Spyder told me that on both my sets that the best color temperature setting was warm. I'd always used neutral in the past. The second suprise is how similar all of my settings were to the Avia disc which I'll now relate:

Brightness Avia-31 Spyder-31
Contrast* Avia- 46 Spyder-61
Color Avia-31 Spyder-33
Tint Avia-0 Spyder-0
Sharpness--41 No PC tests for sharpness and to be honest even using the test pattern on the DVD I wasn't able to notice any difference from one extreme to the other.

* Possible explanation-Prior to Spyder I was using Sony's Black Level correction setting which as I understand it really cranks up the contrast behind the scenes.

Results seem more than acceptable. Black level seems a bit improved, which it needed. Problematic has always been dark scenes where you can forget about subtle shadow effects. Images appear a bit easier to see, which is a good thing. I'm still going to tweak the pro settings and see if any further improvements can be made. I would have liked to have been able to have Spyder with me but that would have required me hanging on to it for too long.

Bottom line: I seem to have done a reasonably competent job with Avia. Given the cost of the two products Avia seems to be the best choice for the budget conscious user. The Spyder however takes all of the uncertainty out of the equation and gave me, very similar results if I'm correct on the issue of contrast. Spyder was certainly faster. I would have liked to see some PC based tests for sharpness settings but other than that, this product works as advertised. It works so well in fact that if I had a laptop from this decade, I'd buy one for myself and go around and calibrate TV's for everyone I knew for about 25 bucks a pop and pay for it quickly and in the end hopefully make enough extra moola for that new sub I've been coveting. Adding in the cost of a laptop though, probably makes it too expensive of a proposition.

I'd like to thank Ed and SpyderTV for allowing me this really cool trial run. Ed, I copied the main sheet you enclosed and I'll get your mail out tomorrow. Many thanks and I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I did. Hanging out at the AR forums really pays off for me. This remains the best site on the internet thanks to folks like Ed.

Sorry for all of the typos but I've got to run now.

Regards,
jc

[westcott]

Undaunted, I ran the process again going back to the Pro mode that I began with. This time things went much better. The first surprise is that Spyder told me that on both my sets that the best color temperature setting was warm. I'd always used neutral in the past. The second suprise is how similar all of my settings were to the Avia disc which I'll now relate:

Regards,
jc

This is one thing AVIA or DVE does not do, tell you what is closest to D65 and that alone is worth the purchase price to me. Thanks for your feedback.

[edtyct]

Jim,

Thanks for the report; it'll make my life a lot easier. I look forward to putting it in context with the others, and trust that no one will be swayed by your results. You have the soul of a reviewer.

I appreciate your moving it along, but we should get the system back to you soon so that you can tweak and experiment to your heart's content. I think that you're absolutely right about black level correction; it tries to cure a disease by introducing another one. You end up paying Peter by borrowing from Paul. I don't like Sony's Standard setting myself; it's way too bright and blue. To tell you the truth, I don't like Pro either, which came as a bit of a surprise; it tends to look washed out with ED and HD pictures. I tend toward Vivid, not without some embarrassment. A Sony tech tells me that it measures closest to D65, but I don't have firsthand knowledge to that effect. I'm not surprised at all by Spyder's "warm" recommendation for your set. I also intend to run the test on a Sony rear projector, as well as a JVC flat panel.

Thanks again,
Ed

[L.J.]

just a heads up. the spyer is on it's way to topspeed via fed-x.

thanks ED

[edtyct]

LJ,

My pleasure. Hey, did you notice that AR has a new video forum? I certainly didn't until one of the threads to which I contributed disappeared. Should the Spyder thread be relocated there, too? It's a delicate question; we don't want to drain home theater completely of video. Where should the line be drawn?

Ed

[L.J.]

LJ,

My pleasure. Hey, did you notice that AR has a new video forum? I certainly didn't until one of the threads to which I contributed disappeared. Should the Spyder thread be relocated there, too? It's a delicate question; we don't want to drain home theater completely of video. Where should the line be drawn?

Ed

Yeah, I think there was a heads up on that a couple of weeks ago. I don't see what it would hurt to move the thread. If I wanted to find video calibration info or anything video related, that's the first place I'd look.

BTW, I'll send you my thoughts on the Spyder Monday via email. I was also wondering when the small fee should be sent over?

[edtyct]

Everything at your convenience, LJ.

[L.J.]

Everything at your convenience, LJ.

Ed, looks like I'm taking you up on that. I'll get to it when life slows down for me a little. Can you PM your email address for Paypal? Thanks

[topspeed]

Got the Spyder today. Question for those involved in this little experiment:

How long can I have it and who gets it next?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm swamped right now and may not be able to play with it until this weekend. If it needs a fast turnaround, I'll try to squeeze it in.

Thanks.

BTW, I wasn't expecting it to be this small!

[edtyct]

TP,

You can have it until you're done with it. I suspect that waiting until the weekend won't put anyone out. Sir TT is the only other Californian so far, so unless he's indisposed again, a PM to him might be in order.

As for "I wasn't expecting it to be this small," there's a joke there somewhere, but I wouldn't touch it with a . . . ah, never mind.

LJ,

The email address given in the license agreement will work for me. If you don't have it anymore, I'll PM it to you eventually, but no hurry.

Ed

[topspeed]

Just finished first calibration. I think my dvd player settings are off because it is making my sat feed waaay too dark. Feardotcom just happened to be on HBO-HD when I finished and there was a sewer scene (I've never seen the flick) where I couldn't see a flippin' thing. I switched back to my normal settings and it was much better. I'm going to try to dive into the 2910's menu's tomorrow and try again. Just switching the IRE from the default 7.5 to 0 made a huge difference in black levels, so I'm going to give it a go with IRE set at 0 and see what happens. All in all tho, the Spyder is a pretty cool little gadget. I'll give a more indepth review once I'm done.

I'm sorry I'm taking so long with this fellas. My grandma has been in the hospital since Wednesday and unfortunately isn't expected to make it through the week. Family naturally comes first and I haven't had many moments of free time. I appreciate your understanding.

If you're reading this SirT, pm me your shipping address and I'll get it out to you this week.

[edtyct]

TP,

Sorry about your grandmother. Don't sweat the Spyder.

As for black level, technically video or studio black is set at 7.5 IRE, which corresponds to 16 on the digital brightness scale; peak white at the other end is at 235. The full range of black to white is actually 0-255; unlike the broadcast world, the PC world actually uses it. Some DVD players pass information below the video black standard; it's called "below black" or "blacker than black." It creates a little headroom to make sure that black doesn't clip on video material (and also helps in the calibration of displays, as DVE points out). But this discrepancy in standards can create havoc. Material shown at the PC standard in a studio or video environment will not look right, and vice versa. Samsung's DVI DVD players, for instance, mistakenly employed the 0-255 range on video material (DVI originating as a PC format), thereby crushing video black in the process.

I'm not sure why your satellite feed looks too dark; I'm assuming that your DVDs don't, or at least that inherently bright ones don't. Let's see what happens to satellite reception when the Denon has a black set at 0. Maybe the picture will even out.

Edit: By the way, TP, I know that you have a JVC DiLA display. Am I right that each of its inputs is capable of indendent calibration? If so, the DVD input would have had the benefit of the Spyder, but not satellite input. In which case, the overly dark picture on Fear.com may have been due to the broadcast or to the satellite input's user profiile. Sensible?

Ed