Denon, Yamaha or Marantz Receiver

[topspeed]

Discussing cars with someone that doesn't even own one is like discussing audio with a deaf person.

I have been trying, lord knows I've been fighting it, to get involved because both of you have a history of going at it. It's like watching Mtry and hifitommy or Lex and SirTT, although I admit it's entertaining as hell in a slow-down-for-a-car-wreck kind of way.

However, RGA your facts, accusations, and sweeping generalizations are so far off base, I don't even know where to start...

The Grand Marquis a rebadged Mazda? What idiot told you this? It's a rebadged Crown Vic on a body-on-frame chassis that has been around since time imemorial.

Jaguar is ranked in the Top 5 of reliability, due in very large part to Fords parts and manufacturing expertise. They are not a Ford btw, they design, engineer, and manufacture their own cars. Is there Ford content? Of course and thank God for that. There's also GM (tranny), but at least the Lucas content has been vastly reduced, if not eliminated completely in the new XJ.

Ford doens't hire Japanese to run their plants, they've had their plants examined by the Japanese because they are the most efficient in the world.

GM doesn't "buy" Suzuki's and rebadge them because they OWN 25% of Suzuki. They also own a big chunk of or all of: Saab, Hummer, Fuji Heavy Industries (Subaru), Opel, Vauxhall, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Daewoo and their domestic brands.

That wasn't a Nissan truck, that was a Mazda and yes, Mazda is owned (not partnered) by Ford. Ford also owns Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo, and Aston Martin along with their domestic brands.

Nissan/Infiniti is owned by Renault.

The VW Group owns Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Bentley, Seat, Skoda, and is related to Porsche (although they share platforms and technology, Porsche AG is still family owned)

BMW owns Rolls Royce and Mini.

DC owns a big chunk of Mitsubishi (around 35%) along with Smart, Maybach, and their domestic brands.

Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus are independent.

As far as reliability issues let's be clear, it's a lot more even out there than you think. BMW recalled the current M3 because of catastrophic engine failures (siezing) and the 3,5,and 7 series because of (drum roll please) FIRES caused by faulty design in the wiring harness. Mighty Toyota even recalled some cars (can't remember which model) due to electrical probs. Mercedes was ranked 30th out of 32 brands in reliability by a GERMAN auto mag. Audi & VW's well document quality woes have resulted in a 11% drop in sales (the third year in a row for declining sales). So you can see, it doesn't matter where it's made, they all have their share of problems.

RGA, I like you but you have a tendency to lock onto one source and proclaim it as gospel. Whether it's Lemon Aid or Peter Qvortup(sp?), you immediately discount anything that is contradictory as heresy. This is extremely short sighted and you're smarter than that. FWIW, I prefer to get my quality info not from CR, Lemon Aid, or JD Power but have found the best info comes from the long term tests conducted by C/D, R&T, Automobile, Autoweek, et.al. These guys drive the wheels off their cars in all kinds of conditions for at least 1 year or 50,000 miles. Bare in mind, auto scribes aren't terribly kind to cars and usually drive them much harder than Joe Public.

[kexodusc]

Thank you so much, Topspeed. Someone had to say it.

C'mon gents, break it up, shake hands...every week you guys square off in debate after debate using big words most of us common folk don't understand. You want to fight each other? I ENCOURAGE it...go ahead....but just think...e-mail would be more private and allow you to say what was really on your minds.

It's somewhat discouraging to see 2 of the most helpful posters on the forum constantly engaged in a battle of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong, Paradigm vs.metal tweeters suck...you get my point.

I would like to know...was there ever a time when you two got along? Which post started the big rift?

Cheers guys!

[RGA]

Thank you so much, Topspeed. Someone had to say it.

C'mon gents, break it up, shake hands...every week you guys square off in debate after debate using big words most of us common folk don't understand. You want to fight each other? I ENCOURAGE it...go ahead....but just think...e-mail would be more private and allow you to say what was really on your minds.

It's somewhat discouraging to see 2 of the most helpful posters on the forum constantly engaged in a battle of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong, Paradigm vs.metal tweeters suck...you get my point.

I would like to know...was there ever a time when you two got along? Which post started the big rift?

Cheers guys!

Sure we get along - just not on audio related topics - no crime in that. We do both agree that Tom Baker was the best Doctor Who - I think Wooch still values LP's - we agree conceptually on what makes the best home theater.

But agreeing is hardly fun. It is more fun to find one part of someone's arguement and then blow it out of proportion so you can make this thread go on and on. I attempted the out several posts back. I've made my points to Topspeed on the way stats are manipulated or to general to be of use...I'm correct. The funny thing is basically after 20 years the American have caught the Europeans...considering every says how lousy the European cars are - I find the entire pro American car stance rather humourous. The Americans are great cars because they have caught and are a virtuyal tie with the crappily built European cars? Now that's funny.

[RGA]

Discussing cars with someone that doesn't even own one is like discussing audio with a deaf person.

Umm had to sell it to get a student loan...I've owned three before the age of 27. I am not a car guy...as such I care more about reliability than 0-60 ratings.

However, RGA your facts, accusations, and sweeping generalizations are so far off base, I don't even know where to start...

No I complained about the generalization of lumping car companies together. I said at the outset that the 20-18 stat serves what to YOU if YOU were going out to buy a car. It still doesn't help you if you're going to buy a Focus vs a VW Golf. You need to know the sepecific cars. I have not EVER defended European Cars except to say that we don't know from those stats WHICH car companies are lousy and which are not. I used BMW as an example not a set in stone fact that they were better. But if the AVERAGE is 20 defects than anyone with a basic understanding of averages KNOWS that some cars are going to be lower fewer than 20 and some higher than 20. Same goes for the American Cars for that matter some are higher than 18 and lower than 18. That's not a generalization it's a fact.

The Grand Marquis a rebadged Mazda? What idiot told you this? It's a rebadged Crown Vic on a body-on-frame chassis that has been around since time imemorial.

Are you in league...Never mentioned the Marquis?

Jaguar is ranked in the Top 5 of reliability, due in very large part to Fords parts and manufacturing expertise. They are not a Ford btw, they design, engineer, and manufacture their own cars. Is there Ford content? Of course and thank God for that. There's also GM (tranny), but at least the Lucas content has been vastly reduced, if not eliminated completely in the new XJ.

You have evidence of Jaguar in the top 5 in the world? Not judging by CR or the Lemon Aid reports - and even if - Hypothetically, it were true then that would illustrate my point above that some European cars fair better than the 20 figure now doesn't it?

Ford doens't hire Japanese to run their plants, they've had their plants examined by the Japanese because they are the most efficient in the world.

Yes - I never said Japanese run their plants...Japanese have had over the last 20 years more mobile plants better QC better design...American are copying or trying to their model...good - never argued the point i even provided a link which says the same thing.

GM doesn't "buy" Suzuki's and rebadge them because they OWN 25% of Suzuki. They also own a big chunk of or all of: Saab, Hummer, Fuji Heavy Industries (Subaru), Opel, Vauxhall, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Daewoo and their domestic brands.

25% does not mean they own Suzuki...that requires 50.1% And when the Sprint was made what roughly a decade ago. This practice is not new. Swift was out and people were buying them up GM wants a piece of that and comes out witht he Sprint...same exact car but with a GM body...it's a Japanese car designed by Suzuki.

You do however bring up an intersting point though that so many companies are now bought and sold merged that lines today are very blurred. Hell one article was complaining about some Japanese cars that advertised "Made in America" but every single componant in the car was not made in the US but Mexico Canada china or elsewhere...so they were upset with the wording. There was a Hitachi Laserdisc player that was a clone of the my Pioneer LCD 1091 with Hitachi's silver box instead of blakc and Hitachi's logo instead of pioneer...looking inside some of these various players you'll see Sanyo chips in them. So that is my point. What is a Sprint? Japanese or American...how did CR decide? Lemon Aid mentioned 3 RECOMMENDED Chryslers with a snide remark "The three best cars Chrysler never built." They didn't but because it's owned by Chrysler did CR count them as American.

This was my only complaint with the entire article was what are they talking about when they say American/European/Japanese or Korean Mexican for that matter. Is it company ownership? Is it who designed it? Is it where the parts came from? Is it where it was physically BUILT? If the latter than Honda Civic is an American Car...Jag is European...if it's ownership the Honda is Japanese and Jag is American. You can't have it both ways and if you want it both ways you better tell the reader...in either case it was not done in that article. It's like me saying that Audio Note is 50% better than YBA. Great...how so? Which products? Statistics ALWAYS need contexts that are useful.

As far as reliability issues let's be clear, it's a lot more even out there than you think. BMW recalled the current M3 because of catastrophic engine failures (siezing) and the 3,5,and 7 series because of (drum roll please) FIRES caused by faulty design in the wiring harness. Mighty Toyota even recalled some cars (can't remember which model) due to electrical probs. Mercedes was ranked 30th out of 32 brands in reliability by a GERMAN auto mag. Audi & VW's well document quality woes have resulted in a 11% drop in sales (the third year in a row for declining sales). So you can see, it doesn't matter where it's made, they all have their share of problems.

Again I'm not saying EVER that European cars don't have recalls or even Japanese cars. I remember a few years a go a huge recall on seatbelts...Toyota, Ford and a few others all used the same seatbelts so all cars using the seatbelts had the same problems...just like if that Sanyo chip was defective you would see Sony and maybe 12 other companies have the same problem. Arcam and Audio Note use a Sony Transport in some of their cd players whereas Sony doesn't even use their own transports in their own models. My point about the Delco battery earlier which was in a Honda and not their own GM car.

RGA, I like you but you have a tendency to lock onto one source and proclaim it as gospel. Whether it's Lemon Aid or Peter Qvortup(sp?), you immediately discount anything that is contradictory as heresy. This is extremely short sighted and you're smarter than that. FWIW, I prefer to get my quality info not from CR, Lemon Aid, or JD Power but have found the best info comes from the long term tests conducted by C/D, R&T, Automobile, Autoweek, et.al. These guys drive the wheels off their cars in all kinds of conditions for at least 1 year or 50,000 miles. Bare in mind, auto scribes aren't terribly kind to cars and usually drive them much harder than Joe Public.

I had a problem with car and driver because they reviewed a Honda Civic and saying a plus was their relibaility was superior to American counterparts and they listed Cavelier. THEN, flipping over to Cavelier review they say it's caught up to the Japanese -recommended - Which the F! is it? Whichever pays the most advertising? Must have been a tie that issue. CR and Lemon Aid are information tools for reliability...that's ALL I would use them for. Certainly not as road test evaluators. Then I would go to car guys like yourself or C/D for opinions which is the best 70k sports car.

Everyone makes a lemon never said otherwise...specific stats helps you play your odds. In the Civic class nothing is going to blow your mind performance wise - gas mileage, nimbleness, features, comfort and naturally RELIABLY getting you from A to B. CR and Lemon-Aid show you the odds. Both actually are very close in opinions on most cars - probably 85%+ but L-A provides more details about other aspects unknown to CR readers. I suggest it would behoove people to cross-reference BOTH before making a used/New car buy. Same way I like t read several reviews of audio componants not JUST one source like you claim I do. It's interesting that class C recommended componants get rubbished in the Brit press and great stuff from Britain doesn't even get a review in Stereophile.

OT
The Sugden A21a I use as an example of why you SHOULD NOT JUST read Stereophile and base your purchase solely on what they say. I spoke to the reviewer who finally did a review of the A21a and he said it was the class leader of integrated amps. that amp had been number one for a decade in Britain and that amp was sold in North America as well. But Stereophile readers would have bought Arcam MF Creek Rotel Bryston integrateds off the reviews. Then in 2003 14 years after the A21a update in 1989 Stereohile says ohh yes this was the best amp in it's class. How the hell can they MISS the longest running amplifier in history - the best one it's class to boot - and then when they FINALLY review it they don't even give it a full review...no I had to ask the editor himself to get the answer. And sopmething tells me you won't see it in their recommended componants listing either.

As for Peter...I give him the benefit of the doubt because based off the sound his process is the correct one - to my ear ... whether the techies like it or not that's fine let them keep upgrading every six months for all I care.

[topspeed]

Are you in league...Never mentioned the Marquis?

Check your post on 3/30 "GOOD BUYS

Audi: A4 and A6 (no more sudden acceleration unless you're talking about sales)

Chrysler: Colt, Summit, Stealth (three of the best cars Chrysler never built)

Ford: Escort, Mustang, Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis (a Mazda spinoff and rear drive reliability) "
There you go.

You have evidence of Jaguar in the top 5 in the world? Not judging by CR or the Lemon Aid reports - and even if - Hypothetically, it were true then that would illustrate my point above that some European cars fair better than the 20 figure now doesn't it?

It was JD Power's IQS but damned if I can find it. Actually, it illustrates that Jaguar is NOT a Ford as you proclaim, otherwise it would be on the side of a road burning in a ditch, right? Ford improved Jaguar, period.

% does not mean they own Suzuki...that requires 50.1% And when the Sprint was made what roughly a decade ago. This practice is not new. Swift was out and people were buying them up GM wants a piece of that and comes out witht he Sprint...same exact car but with a GM body...it's a Japanese car designed by Suzuki.

News flash: Suzuki's 2 latest models, the Verona and Forenza (who names these things?) are rebadged Korean engineered, designed, and built Daewoos. All three are under the GM umbrella. Make no mistake, 25% may not mean you own it but it sure as hell means you pull the strings. Nothing goes on at Suzuki without Rick Wagoner's stamp of approval.

This is my only complaint with the entire article was what are they talking about when they say American/European/Japanese or Korean Mexican for that matter. Is it company ownership? Is it who designed it? Is it where the parts came from? Is it where it was physically BUILT? If the latter than Honda Civic is an American Car...Jag is European...if it's ownership the Honda is Japanese and Jag is American. You can't have it both ways and if you want it both ways you better tell the reader...in either case it was not done in that article. It's like me saying that Audio Note is 50% better than YBA. Great...how so? Which products? Statistics ALWAYS need contexts that are useful.

The US government dictates that for an automobile to be classified as "Made in the USA" it must contain at least 70% domestic content. The Honda Accord is "made in America." The Chrysler Crossfire is actually assembled (not 'made') in America but is a rebodied previous gen. M/B SLK, w/ the M/B engine, tranny, electrics, and even the same dash board.

Then in 2003 14 years after the A21a update in 1989 Stereohile says ohh yes this was the best amp in it's class. How the hell can they MISS the longest running amplifier in history - the best one it's class to boot - and then when they FINALLY review it they don't even give it a full review.

This is why Stereophile is a joke. How can one person or even a group of "professional reviewers" proclaim ANY one item as "best in class" in a field as subjective as audio? Lunacy. Do they have my ears, my preferences, my speakers, my room, etc.? Best in class? Whatever...

[RGA]

Check your post on 3/30 "GOOD BUYS

Audi: A4 and A6 (no more sudden acceleration unless you're talking about sales)

Chrysler: Colt, Summit, Stealth (three of the best cars Chrysler never built)

Ford: Escort, Mustang, Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis (a Mazda spinoff and rear drive reliability) "
There you go.

This is why Stereophile is a joke. How can one person or even a group of "professional reviewers" proclaim ANY one item as "best in class" in a field as subjective as audio? Lunacy. Do they have my ears, my preferences, my speakers, my room, etc.? Best in class? Whatever...

The quotes under Good Buys are all from Lemon-Aid not me just so you know - including what was in brackets. I know the escort in 1992 or so had some sort of Mazda link because the car itself was a vast improvement over to prior models (I had the 1990 escort which was just about as bad as my Grand Am) - By 100,000Km I only had the transmission to replace and the driver's seat(it broke - so you had to sit kinda side-ways), wheels, bearings, front end, head gasket, window roller(WTF), air conditioner. It was only after being beat up a hill by my friend's Hyundai Pony that really was the kicker to sell. Until the Honda, I thought all those repairs were just the cost of owning a vehicle so get used to it. The Japanese prove time and again in any stat anyone here wants to useor imply that they are better than EVERYONE else on an overall average of fewer defects fewer Break-Downs(which I call "falling apart" but some are too stupid to imply the difference you have to spell it out like they're 4 years old). That don't mean some guys Acura won't be an equal pile of crap or that you won't get half a million trouble free miles out of a Chevy Cavelier. On average however you're more LIKELY to have more success with the Acura or Toyota than any American Car.

Jag is better OK, I can accept it - of course they couldn't get much worse worse. All cars have improved over the last 20 years - for the bloody money they should bloody well improve no? Well except the Ford Focus and Explorer perhaps. Something tells me that if you look you'll see the same drive train in the New Grand Am as the 1994 version I had which was probably the same as the one a decade earlier. The incompetant trunk lay-out and very cheap plastic inside is similar...lots more cheap plastic body must be worth that extra 5k - I'll look at 2004 rating of the Grand Am in 2007 and see if they've improved. Reliability ratings unfortunately have a lag-time in order to assess anything usefull. So instead of the plastic falling off(ie; having problems via defect) right off the plant they've managed to ensure that less of them fall off(ie are a defect) off the line. Interestingly, they can't catch it off the line at 25,000km of use.

[Woochifer]

EVERYONE else on an overall average of fewer defects fewer Break-Downs(which I call "falling apart" but some are too stupid to imply the difference you have to spell it out like they're 4 years old).

And others are too self-righteous to differentiate between fact and exaggeration.

[RGA]

Back to Denon, Yammie and Marantz.

There is no proof beyond anecdotes that any are better than the others and you'll get support for all of them and people will have breakdowns from all of them eventually. Marantz in Canada has the best warranty of the three. The entry model is the cheapest and has more upgradablilty, is the heaviest has a physically bigger power supply.

And don't forget Onkyo. Most all like priced receivers sound pretty much the same - so features, warranty and price are what I'd be looking at in the entry level region.

These reviews are older but the GUTS as in power supplies/preamp build quality etc will give you a general idea of sound. Hi - Fi choice uses level matched blind panel listening sessions and have even had the designers of componants in to listen (kind of funny that they don't always pick their own gear as best). The mag is not the same as Home Cinema Choice - but Hi-fi choice in not available in my bookstore anymore - costs too much to import. The sight is going to want to give up to date reviews and cut their magazine sales.

Basically if it gets 3 it might be considered good 4-5 well I like loits of stuff that gets 4 over stuff they give 5 - after all it's a panel and one panel member may love something but is out voted...you might have been that one member - so 4-5 are certainly worth your attention...Most of the time they're right on what they give 3.

There are two pages. http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_l...category=MULTI