Help...8-10K to spend on a HT system

[Escobar]

First off, thanks...I appreciate the help experts like you guys (especially woodman) can provide me motivated beginners like myself.

I am moving into a new loft within the next 6-8 months. I want a worthwhile HT system. I am willing to spend 8-10K.

--For TVs, it seems like the way to go is LCD if you have the cash? Should I shoot for the biggest LCD I can get? And whats the deal with LCD projection? And its difference (if any?) to DLP? Is it better to save the money on a LCD projection or DLP TV and be able to go bigger than I could with a sharper, but smaller and more expensive LCD?

Whats the advice here...which technology do I go with? And whats that settled, what specific models do I can look into?

--Now I jump into "everything else." I know this is where you laugh cause I get so broad...but what would YOU do? Keep in mind I want high end. What is involved here? What are the best brands to go with? I've heard from a friend good things about ROTEL? I got to worry about a receiver, speakers, amps? pre amps? processor? wiring? installation, subs, and what else? I also want to get some turntables and a great mixer later on (not included in budget) so I have to keep that in mind when I choose what speakers I'm getting?

So basically, yeah, I got 8-10K to spend on home entertainment to make my new place nice. HELP?

Again, greatly appreciated and hope to hear feedback

[AVMASTER]

answer this question first;
describe the room ( lots of details please) you plan to have your theater in

[Bryan]

Is that $8 - $10K including or excluding the tv? What size room will this system be going in? High end can be a wonderful thing but the gear has to be able to fit and sound good in the room. Perhaps you should re-allocate $500 - $1K of your budget to room treatments.

To me, the very definition of HT is implicit of the impact of bass. The stomp of the T-Rex, the opening 10 minutes of Toy Story 2, the cannon fire in Master and Commander, and the numerous battle scenes in Lord of the Rings. Depending upon your cubic footage in the room plus any openings into other rooms this will determine how much you will need to dedicate to the subwoofer(s). The price range could be anything from $450 - $1,500 or more.

For a receiver/amp/preamp, you desire something with a phono input or you will have to puchase a phono preamp. If you do not wish to buy that extra piece of gear, anything without a phono input you can rule out. Is THX or THX ULTRA2 important to you? If the whole system isn't THX certified you need not worry about it.

Speakers. Major expense here. Are you looking at 5.1? 6.1? 7.1? This can be dictated by your room size. For example, if you have a smaller room you may not have the space for two additional speakers. If you have a larger one bigger speakers may be needed. What size speakers do you want? Do you wish to purchase online or would you prefer a local dealer? Do you prefer tower speakers or bookshelf ones? Ribbons, electrostats, or regular speakers?

[woodman]

First off, thanks...I appreciate the help experts like you guys (especially woodman) can provide me motivated beginners like myself.

Thanks for the appreciation and "vote of confidence"

I am moving into a new loft within the next 6-8 months. I want a worthwhile HT system. I am willing to spend 8-10K.

--For TVs, it seems like the way to go is LCD if you have the cash? Should I shoot for the biggest LCD I can get? And whats the deal with LCD projection? And its difference (if any?) to DLP? Is it better to save the money on a LCD projection or DLP TV and be able to go bigger than I could with a sharper, but smaller and more expensive LCD?

Whats the advice here...which technology do I go with? And whats that settled, what specific models do I can look into?

An LCD front projector is what I recommend - not a direct-view LCD panel (they're far too expensive for what you get). I assume that your "loft" will have adequate control over ambient light will it not? A front projector will give you every bit as sharp a picture as a smaller direct-view LCD display. The projector will give you a MUCH larger image - as large as you (and the dimensions of your room and your viewing distance) will allow for. A DLP projector is another alternative, although some people are bothered by what is known as "rainbow" artifacts that are the result of the spinning color wheel that is used with DLP displays. LCD displays do not use such a thing, so unless you know for a fact that you're not bothered by the "rainbow" effect, an LCD projector is a safer bet. As for a particular model - the new Sanyo Z2 will give you the best value ... the best combination of performance vs. price. It can be had for less than $2K. A good screen can be had for a few hundred (or less). This will give you a major part of your home theater for little more than $2K - leaving you with a lot of breathing room for the audio portion of your theater.

--Now I jump into "everything else." I know this is where you laugh cause I get so broad...but what would YOU do? Keep in mind I want high end. What is involved here? What are the best brands to go with? I've heard from a friend good things about ROTEL? I got to worry about a receiver, speakers, amps? pre amps? processor? wiring? installation, subs, and what else? I also want to get some turntables and a great mixer later on (not included in budget) so I have to keep that in mind when I choose what speakers I'm getting?

So basically, yeah, I got 8-10K to spend on home entertainment to make my new place nice. HELP?

I'm not laughing ... at least not until I read some inane comments, suggestions, etc. from some of my erstwhile colleagues here.

My recommend: budget around $1K for a good receiver, such as the Yamaha RX-V2400, or if you want to go even higher-end, the RX-Z1 for around $2K. That is all you'll need in the way of electronics to produce the sound for your theater. No other amplifiers, processors, etc. I recommend Yamaha over Rotel for reliability and "support" - without giving up anything in sound quality - no matter what some others say on the matter. You'll no doubt get "advice" from others saying that Brand X or Brand Z "sounds" waaaaay better than Yamaha ... these people simply don't know anything about audio. They're merely repeating misdirected opinions that they've "heard" somewhere and that have no basis in fact. I'm a musician as well as an electronic engineer/tech, so if Yamaha was actually lacking in "musicality", I would sure as hell be one to notice it. They don't lack a thing! So far, you've now spent only $3K to perhaps $4K with only the speakers and a DVD player yet to go. Good DVD players are now available for "peanuts" - even with SACD and DVD-Audio capabilities, so this is not a significant budgetary consideration. As to the speakers, that is a very subjective matter indeed. You'll just have to go and listen (to a lot of them) and make your own choice, bearing in mind that your ATTITUDE (how much stock you place in what others have to say about speakers) plays a huge part in the decision process! Just be aware that the "point of diminishing returns" takes place in loudspeakers just the same as it does in all other electronic products, and you don't have to spend thousands of dollars on them in order to have "good sound" as some people will try to get you to believe!

Hope this is the help that you were looking for

[Escobar]

Thanks for the help thus far...you don't know how much I appreciate it.
Here's some additional info on my place...

I am actually developing these loft units myself...The total square footage of the bottom floor is 40' by 20' ...coming out to about 800sq ft. Subtract kitchen and misc space...and I'm looking at about 500 sq ft of space and 16' high ceilings. The second floor is an actual "half" floor that opens up to the first floor area where the HT system will be. Lighting will not be a problem at all.

Now, a few other questions and replies...

1) woodman you're amazing...i hope you continue to help. (along w/ every1 else)
2) let me clarify a few things...i'm looking right now at 60" rear projection lcd or dlp tvs. Other than saving space and bigger screen size on the front projection lcd or dlp...what are the advantages? What mechanism would I use to setup the projector and for how much? and finally, how does the new LCOS technology that I hear is coming out come into play? In other words, what would you get...A) LCD rear, B) DLP rear, C)LCD front, D) DLP front, or E) LCOS??
3) So it looks like I'm gonna have around 5-6K for speakers...what would YOU DO if you were me and had to choose?

can't wait to gain more wisdom...if you need to know anything else to help me out better please ask it

[stevos2005]

Good luck with your system. I'm actually in a somewhat similar boat to you with the TV issue. Regarding sound quality, if you want hi-fi, I'm guessing new music formats, such as SACD and DVD-Audio might be important to you. In any case, I'd look for a well-built DVD-player with high quality (Burr-Brown, etc.) 24-bit DAC's such as the Denon's DVD-2200, 2900, or 5900.

I agree that Yamaha's are excellent, and I'm also an engineer and amateur musician. For receivers in the $1000 price range, I personally feel that Yamaha's are the best, with Denon's coming in right behind. I'll second the RX-V2400.

With speakers, you'll just have to go out and listen yourself. If you're into music, then IMHO, I'd say go with B&W (www.bwspeakers.com) all the way! I just got my B&Ws the other day, and I've never heard anything remotely that good....ever! And yes, that is with a Yamaha receiver. With $5-6k, I'd recommend the 700 series. You can easily get an excellent hi-fi speaker system for that price. Since your room is on the larger side, I'd go with one of the larger subs in the series.

Hope that helps. Good luck!

[Escobar]

Tell me what you think of this breakdown guys (espcially woodman)

-Front Speakers: Paradigm Reference series studio 60s
-Rear Speakers: Paradigm Reference series studio 20s
+maybe 2 more rear paradigm 20s for surround speakers
-Center Speaker: Paradigm Reference Studio CC470 or CC570

-Sub: Either a Velodyn Digital drive series (biggest budget allows) or a Paradigm servo 15

Either:
a Receiver: Yamaha rxv2400 for 1k or the higher end one for 2k woodman recommended
or
Processor: Rotel RSP 1068 (7.1)
AMP: Rotel R+B1075 (processor + amp option would cost same 2k as high end yamaha - woodman help?)

TV: I guess the best and biggest rear projection DLP or LCD? It would be difficult to watch a front projection during the day I've been told? And I would need a long component cable possibly later to hook up the projector to the equip unless the equip was installed where the projector was? or again, should I wait for that new technology (LCOS?)

So I'm progressing along here and learning more. Lemme know what needs improvement.

[Escobar]

I'm also hearing really good things about B&W so I may consider them.
From what you guys are saying, sounds like I have to go listen to the Paradigms vs. the B &Ws.

Also, I"m hearing I'm fine with a 1-2k RECEIVER
I'm also hearing I'm better off with "specializing" and getting separate processor and amp (and losing out on the precious fm/am!) which is "better" for watching movies and/or listening to music? true?

How accurate is the "separation for specialization" theory?

Also, I have closer to 400 sq ft, not 500 (maybe even slightly less)

Is LCOS something to look into for the tv? as of now, I'm hearing different things on front projection vs rear projection vs LCOS

[magictooth]

I'm also hearing really good things about B&W so I may consider them.
From what you guys are saying, sounds like I have to go listen to the Paradigms vs. the B &Ws.

Also, I"m hearing I'm fine with a 1-2k RECEIVER
I'm also hearing I'm better off with "specializing" and getting separate processor and amp (and losing out on the precious fm/am!) which is "better" for watching movies and/or listening to music? true?

How accurate is the "separation for specialization" theory?

Also, I have closer to 400 sq ft, not 500 (maybe even slightly less)

Is LCOS something to look into for the tv? as of now, I'm hearing different things on front projection vs rear projection vs LCOS

Try to keep an open mind and go and listen to more than those two brands of speakers before you buy. They'll probably be the biggest influence on the type and quality of your system - audio wise at least. There are lots of people on this board who like Dynaudio, Von Schweikert, and Boston Acoustics. You can try some other Brit designs such as Audio Note or Tannoy as well.

If you get separate preamp/amp then you won't need the Yamaha receiver and vice versa. Which is better is a matter of personal preference. My original receiver was a fairly decent one, but I upgraded to a separate amp while keeping the preamp stage of my receiver. As long as your new receiver has pre outs you'll be able to do this as well in the future. The advantage of this is that you'll be able to have more power in the future if you want it. I didn't think that I'd need it, but it's nice to be able to play that intro THX segment at a high level and not have your receiver auto shutdown because too much power is required.

Don't forget to budget for a subwoofer. This'll be one of the more important parts of your HT system especially in an open room.

Regarding your TV, I've seen LCOS and it is quite good. The only advantage it has over DLP these days is that there are guaranteed no rainbows and that it is generally brighter. You'd have to go and see some different projectors to be able to determine if you can see problems such as rainbows or in the case of LCD if you can see screendoor effect. As an example, I don't have a problem with rainbows, but for many entry level LCD projectors, I see screendoor much more easily than most people.

You would be well advised to get a front projector over an LCD panel or RPTV if your room will allow it. This means ambient light control, but also consider that if you're going with a smaller screen size such as 60-80", you may still be able to watch the projector because the screen is 2-3 times smaller than the 100" standard. What this means is that you'll be getting 2-3 times more light onto the screen if you go with the smaller screen size.

One last tip. If you're not averse to a bit of risk, you should try and see if you can some or all of your audio equipment used. If I could start all over again, I'd buy used.

[woodman]

I'm also hearing really good things about B&W so I may consider them.
From what you guys are saying, sounds like I have to go listen to the Paradigms vs. the B &Ws.

Also, I"m hearing I'm fine with a 1-2k RECEIVER
I'm also hearing I'm better off with "specializing" and getting separate processor and amp (and losing out on the precious fm/am!) which is "better" for watching movies and/or listening to music? true?

How accurate is the "separation for specialization" theory?

Also, I have closer to 400 sq ft, not 500 (maybe even slightly less)

Is LCOS something to look into for the tv? as of now, I'm hearing different things on front projection vs rear projection vs LCOS

Let's go around again, Escobar ... I'm doing my best to help you avoid spending dollars needlessly, and maximizing your enjoyment of what "Home Theater" has to offer.

First off, your video display. You said in an earlier post that ambient room light will not be a problem ... then, in a later post you said that watching a front projector in the daytime might be difficult. Let's get this matter cleared up first. Watching any TV set - no matter of what type in a fairly bright environment (whether from sunlight or artificial light) will be difficult at best. This is why people visiting retail stores come away with the opinion that ALL of the sets looked crappy!

If you can darken the room to where it's not bright, then you can get very enjoyable images from a front projector - period. There are many advantages to a front projector besides a larger image ... trust me. RPTVs with as large a picture as you might want are very, very, very heavy - ballbusters for even two men to deal with. Most problems that might arise with an HDTV set of any sort today, will probably require a trip to a service facility to be dealt with. This means two men to come to your home to pick it up, and two men to deliver it back to you after it's serviced. With a front projector, if and when a problem should come up, you merely disconnect it - tuck it under your arm (they only weigh about 7-8 lbs.) and carry it into the service shop yourself - saving not only considerable expense, but also down-time for YOU to be without the set. In addition, a front projector eliminates much of the manufacturing expense of an RPTV, so the initial cost is FAR less. An LCD or DLP projector can be had for less than $2K, while an equivalent RPTV (using those same technologies) will run you at least double that amount! 'Nuff said? Also, regarding LCoS ... I'm very suspicious of the viability of same. Toshiba introduced two models (RPTVs) using that chip - they performed brilliantly, but were quietly discontinued for some reason! I've not been able to find out why. Also, JVC showed an RPTV using that technology at the 2000 CES show - promising delivery in a few months, but it NEVER did make it into the marketplace! This makes me wonder why, also.

Now to audio: goddammit, I cannot fathom all of the (well-intentioned, I'm sure) individuals that keep on insisting that separates perform waaaaaaay better than any receiver. They quite simply don't know whatinthehell they're talking about. If we compare some good "separates" with an entry-level receiver, then they might have a point. But, I don't recommend such receivers to anybody. I think that the receiver is FAR too important in the overall scheme of things to scrimp on it in order to have more to spend on other things (like speakers). Also, people that claim that one brand is vastly better sonically than another are also misguided and flat-out wrong. One other thing ... scratch the Yamaha RX-Z1 off of your list, along with the $2K that it would cost you, since it doesn't have the YPAO feature that is THE most important feature to be introduced in receivers in the last 40 years! Get the RX-V2400 for less than $1K and you'll have everything you need in audio electronics to drive whatever speakers you end up choosing.

As for the speakers, refer to what I said in my post yesterday (June 2nd at 2:20pm). I like Paradigm a lot, but like I said in the earlier post, try to eliminate from your mind what others have to say about them (speakers). Remember the point about dimishing returns. It surfaces with speakers at a much lower price point than most people believe. You'll get all sorts of "advice" stating that model XXX simply "blows away" the competition (at a hefty price, I might add). Throw this sort of nonsense directly into the trash can where it belongs. If I've learned anything at all in my 65 years of experience with audio, it's that there's simply no such thing as "blows away", "night and day differences", "HUGE differences", etc. They simply don't exist!

In closing, don't let anyone talk you into spending vast quantities of cash on WIRE. They're also dealing in snake-oil, whether they know it or not.

[woodman]

Escobar:
You need more help, and I'll be glad to give you some - but it's late - I'm tired - I'll get back with you tomorrow.

[Escobar]

thanks, can't wait...i've offically found a new addictive hobby here

[Escobar]

also read 3 good reviews on the Sanyo PLV-Z1 front projector
price looks good too

anyone know best bang for its buck front projector to go with a 10k budget?
ideally would like to keep total cost in this area of the HT system under 3k
keep in mind im looking at the def techs, b&w, and AV123 Rockets for speakers
add 1-2k for receiver or rotel processor/amp
and 1-2k best svs sub budget allows
dvd player, wiring, misc

[magictooth]

also read 3 good reviews on the Sanyo PLV-Z1 front projector
price looks good too

anyone know best bang for its buck front projector to go with a 10k budget?
ideally would like to keep total cost in this area of the HT system under 3k
keep in mind im looking at the def techs, b&w, and AV123 Rockets for speakers
add 1-2k for receiver or rotel processor/amp
and 1-2k best svs sub budget allows
dvd player, wiring, misc

Saw one of your above posts and it says that the Infocus 7200 isn't 720p or 1080i compatible, but the projector is indeed capable of playing these formats. For $4K, the 7200 would be a very good deal on last year's model. I've seen it in action, and it is very good. I think the new model 7205 is the one going for $7K.

LCOS projectors like the JVC DLA-SX21U start I think in the $8k+ range. It is still a new technology and hence it is much more expensive than DLP or LCD.

I said it before, and I'll say it again that you shouldn't be in such a huge hurry to purchase your audio equipment. Spend some time and go and listen to a bunch of different speakers. These will make the biggest difference in your system.

I disagree to a certain extent with Woodman's suggestion that there's no reason to go with separates over the RX-2400. If you want to listen to some movies or music at high volumes, then a separate amp is going to be of great benefit. My receiver is rated nominally at 100x6, but there's no way that it can put out 600W of power at once. With a separate amp, you will get 100 or 200 watts of power to each channel. In addition to that the capacitors of many well made amps are significantly better than those in your typical receiver. Where this helps is in the large dynamic swings that you can get in many movies these days. Without sufficient power and reserves, you'll either reset or blow out your receiver or you won't get the full effect that the movie was intending to present.