5.1 vs. 7.1 systems

[kexodusc]

I had the fortunate opportunity to test out my friend's new RX-V1400 this weekend when I was watching his dogs...I am absolutely impressed with this receiver...always been a Marantz man myself, but this was a treat. YPAO is a nice feature, but too funny to stay and listen too...
Anyway.
I must say I used U-571 as the reference DVD, and LOTR: FOTR for a few scenes, but all in all I haven't been impressed with the added 2 speakers.
My bud's got 6 Studio 20's for his HT, so I know it's not the system, placement was pretty good, well sized room etc. I just didn't find much benefit to the 2 extra surround speakers. I do admit it did sound a tiny bit better in a few scenes, but all in all I was just disappointed.
Not to knock the Yammie...very impressive indeed, especially listening to DVD-A's and SACD's on his home brewed Vifa powered speakers in stereo.
What's the general consensus here? Is 6/7.1 just clever marketing and 5.1 more than adequate, or have we yet to see any sources that take advantage of the extra channels?

[poneal]

I view the two extra channels as added surround. If your room is not large then personally I wouldn't get them. Think of a movie theater, they have the mains, some subs, and a lot of surrounds. For that matter you could have a 9.1, 11.1, 13.1, 15.1 and on and on. You get the picture? All said and done they are just surrounds. Im sure you have noticed that most DVDs are 5.1 encoded. There are not a whole lot of 7.1 encoded DVDs out there. The DVDs that have 7.1 are specifically recorded for sound out of those channels but they are few and far between. I don't think that 7.1 will catch on, I mean come on 5 speakers is a lot. But you never can tell. If you want to take the safe route, you can buy a 7.1 recevier or preamp so that if the need arises you can take advantage of it. My receiver has the preouts for the two rear channels, but to be honest I dont use them and don't plan on using them, but hey they are there in case one day I decide to use them.

[Woochifer]

It really comes down to whether or not your room can accommodate them. If your sofa is up against the backwall, then it will be difficult enough to get 5.1 surround to sound right. Adding two more speakers to the mix can only be cause for trouble.

A system with six Studio 20s is about as well matched a system as you can get. (is there a nonmatched seventh speaker in there as well?) The back surround speakers in a 6.1/"7.1" setup are there to fill the gap in the rear soundfield. The L/R surrounds are what really give the soundtrack its directionality. If you have a well placed and properly calibrated 5.1 setup, the back surrounds will have a more subtle effect. The surround effect will already be quite enveloping with a good 5.1 setup.

6.1/"7.1" is basically an enhancement to a small group of DVD soundtracks. And when you're playing back encoded material it can make a noticeable difference. But, the vast majority of material out there is encoded for either 2.0 Dolby Surround or 5.1.

As far as your evaluation goes, it's not really valid because neither U-571 nor the LOTR:FOTR theatrical cut are encoded for 6.1/"7.1" playback In order to really hear the difference, you need to try out an actual discrete 6.1 soundtrack (Gladiator and the LOTR extended editions are the most notable examples), and the only format that fits that bill right now is DTS ES discrete. Soundtracks labeled as Dolby EX are basically 5.1 soundtracks with the back surround channel matrixed into the surround channels (like how the surround and center tracks are encoded into a 2.0 Dolby Surround soundtrack).

So, basically you haven't really experienced the benefit of 6.1/"7.1" just yet. At the same time, I've always told people on this board that 5.1 is really the only thing that should be regarded as a "must have" feature. 6.1/"7.1" is nice to have but far from necessary given the lack of true 6.1 soundtrack material out there, and the difficulty most average rooms have in accommodating the extra speakers. But, if you buy a receiver nowadays, you'll get the capability whether or not you can make use of it.

[Woochifer]

I view the two extra channels as added surround. If your room is not large then personally I wouldn't get them. Think of a movie theater, they have the mains, some subs, and a lot of surrounds. For that matter you could have a 9.1, 11.1, 13.1, 15.1 and on and on. You get the picture? All said and done they are just surrounds. Im sure you have noticed that most DVDs are 5.1 encoded. There are not a whole lot of 7.1 encoded DVDs out there. The DVDs that have 7.1 are specifically recorded for sound out of those channels but they are few and far between. I don't think that 7.1 will catch on, I mean come on 5 speakers is a lot. But you never can tell. If you want to take the safe route, you can buy a 7.1 recevier or preamp so that if the need arises you can take advantage of it. My receiver has the preouts for the two rear channels, but to be honest I dont use them and don't plan on using them, but hey they are there in case one day I decide to use them.

Gotta nip it in the bud -- there's NO SUCH THING as true 7.1 for consumer use. The most that's currently available is 6.1 DTS ES. That's the ONLY format that has a discrete back surround channel. Even Dolby EX is actually a 5.1 format with an encoded back surround channel that's extracted by the processor (similar to how Dolby Surround works).

The so-called "7.1" term refers more to the speaker and/or receiver output setup, which is why I put it in quotes.

It's really a misuse of the terminology because the "7" in "7.1" is nothing more than a split monophonic back surround output. The two back surround channels are IDENTICAL. The only reason for using two back surround channels is because we hear differently from the rear and two speakers are more effective at filling in that rear soundfield. But, that still doesn't make it a true 7.1 format. The only 7.1 format out there is SDDS, and that format likely will remain a theatrical format and not make its way into home theaters. The whole "7.1" terminology really is marketing, even though the concept has merit. At the same time, if we accept "7.1" for how it's used by receiver and speaker manufacturers, we should then start calling 2.0 Dolby Surround a 4.0 or 5.0 format because the Dolby Pro Logic decoder splits that output into five channels.

[Geoffcin]

I had the fortunate opportunity to test out my friend's new RX-V1400 this weekend when I was watching his dogs...I am absolutely impressed with this receiver...always been a Marantz man myself, but this was a treat. YPAO is a nice feature, but too funny to stay and listen too...
Anyway.
I must say I used U-571 as the reference DVD, and LOTR: FOTR for a few scenes, but all in all I haven't been impressed with the added 2 speakers.
My bud's got 6 Studio 20's for his HT, so I know it's not the system, placement was pretty good, well sized room etc. I just didn't find much benefit to the 2 extra surround speakers. I do admit it did sound a tiny bit better in a few scenes, but all in all I was just disappointed.
Not to knock the Yammie...very impressive indeed, especially listening to DVD-A's and SACD's on his home brewed Vifa powered speakers in stereo.
What's the general consensus here? Is 6/7.1 just clever marketing and 5.1 more than adequate, or have we yet to see any sources that take advantage of the extra channels?

I am not sure what you were listening to, but DVD's recorded in Dolby-EX, ot DTS-ES are MUCH better in 7.1 than 5.1. When I added the back speakers it was like the room enlarged to near movie theather proportions. There's so much more added to the surround effect I would call it a MAJOR breakthrough. Of course you have to be listing to a system that has been set up correctly, and have at least 4 feet behind the seating postion for the rear effect to be produced.

[kexodusc]

Thanks all who posted so far...yes, I'll admit to not listening to a full-fledged 6.1 source, but if I understood the manual, I was using some sort of DSP or matrix effect to output 5.1 sources in 7 channels...there was certainly noise coming out of all speakers.
Don't get me wrong, it sounded great, but I didn't really get much increased benefit from the 2 extra surrounds.
I definitely got more rear presence on a select few scenes as was mentioned, perhaps that's all I should expect.
Maybe my findings are pointing out perceived shortcomings in the 7 channel DSP's, although I've got to say, it did wonders for digital sports and music broadcasts. Maybe my 2 movies weren't great selections. I had Gladiator there too, and never thought to try it out. I've always found Yammie DSP's to be the best, especially for HT, looks like more listening is required.
Interesting point though, Wooch. With no true 7.1 sources, and few 6.1 sources, we're almost getting into overkill in most modest sized rooms.
BTW, the Studio series CC-470 (I think) was being used along with a Paradigm subwoofer I assume to be a PW-2200, but I could be wrong. My friend's got too much money to spend, just bought this system to out do mine, and I hate him for it, but those Studio's 20's sound a wee bit better than my Studio 40's (his are the newest version, mine are the previous), especially when he switches them to the Bryston amp (insert drool here).
I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on some new equipment, but you can all appreciate how easy it is to want the "latest and greatest" stuff...I've fallen in love with that RX-V1400 receiver for movies, but 2 more Studio's 20's just aren't in my budget yet. Maybe if I get some income tax money back, but I won't hold my breath.
Can anyone recommend some good movies that really show off the DTS ES or DD EX benefits well? I have a vote for Gladiator already...thx.

[magictooth]

Hi!

You can hear a difference in LOTR extended version when the crebain circle around. Other than that, the difference in 6.1/7.1 is minimal compared to 5.1. I have a big enough room to accomodate the extra speakers (I've got about 5 ft behind the couch), but I found the difference to be too subtle or entirely nonexistent in too many movies to be worth the trouble.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am not sure what you were listening to, but DVD's recorded in Dolby-EX, ot DTS-ES are MUCH better in 7.1 than 5.1. When I added the back speakers it was like the room enlarged to near movie theather proportions. There's so much more added to the surround effect I would call it a MAJOR breakthrough. Of course you have to be listing to a system that has been set up correctly, and have at least 4 feet behind the seating postion for the rear effect to be produced.

A MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH???? Are you serious man? First, as Wooch mentions there is no such monster as 7.1 on DVD. 6.1 Dts ES discrete is only 7 channel system available on DVD. Second, a MAJOR breakthrough consist of something that provides a leap and bound change over what is currently available. Like the jump from 16/44.1khz redbook CD to 24/96khz DVD-A. Now that's a breakthough. EX at its best is subtle and not that dramatic. Dts ES discrete could be quite good sounding if releases where mixed for that format first, and then encoded with EX.( spatiallya discrete channel kicks butt over a matrixed channel anyday) ES discrete can sound quite good when a mix is exclusively designed for that format. Only then would the center rear take on a new deminsion. As it stands now, the center rear contribution is subtle at best.

Wooch, SDDS is not the only 7.1 movie theater system out there. Dts has a system called a "Special venue" system that is so flexible that it can be configured for just about every film format or need out there. It is also scalable from 7.1 to 10.2. It can be configured for five screen channels, two surrounds and ES discrete center rear, or any combination thereof.

[Geoffcin]

A MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH???? Are you serious man? First, as Wooch mentions there is no such monster as 7.1 on DVD. 6.1 Dts ES discrete is only 7 channel system available on DVD. Second, a MAJOR breakthrough consist of something that provides a leap and bound change over what is currently available. Like the jump from 16/44.1khz redbook CD to 24/96khz DVD-A. Now that's a breakthough. EX at its best is subtle and not that dramatic. Dts ES discrete could be quite good sounding if releases where mixed for that format first, and then encoded with EX.( spatiallya discrete channel kicks butt over a matrixed channel anyday) ES discrete can sound quite good when a mix is exclusively designed for that format. Only then would the center rear take on a new deminsion. As it stands now, the center rear contribution is subtle at best.

Wooch, SDDS is not the only 7.1 movie theater system out there. Dts has a system called a "Special venue" system that is so flexible that it can be configured for just about every film format or need out there. It is also scalable from 7.1 to 10.2. It can be configured for five screen channels, two surrounds and ES discrete center rear, or any combination thereof.

OK, let me rephrase it;

All of the DTS-ES, and DOLBY-EX encoded movies I have seen, whether they be on DVD, or HD through my Digital cable, are MUCH better sounding than ANY 5.1 encoded DVD, or 5.1 broadcast I have heard. Just the addition of the back speakers makes a huge difference in how large the room is "perceived." They also add some starting effects like when a plane flies over and it seem to go right over your head, or if someone is talking behind you. There is nothing subtle about those effects!

I would say that the additional speakers providing COMPLETE coverage of the soundfield is a major breakthrough. As newer formats arrive, and we get true 7.1 discrete sound, it will get even better.

[Woochifer]

Wooch, SDDS is not the only 7.1 movie theater system out there. Dts has a system called a "Special venue" system that is so flexible that it can be configured for just about every film format or need out there. It is also scalable from 7.1 to 10.2. It can be configured for five screen channels, two surrounds and ES discrete center rear, or any combination thereof.

Wow, I didn't know that DTS already has a system in place to implement a 10.2 setup. I guess with the format's scalability it makes sense. Now, we just need something to play through all those channels!

I guess this also means that a home version of that format is entirely possible. Given that DVD is already space constrained enough with the half-rate version of DTS, it would seem that we can't even begin to speculate on accommodating more channels until HD-DVD's a reality. Of course, the burning question is who's insane enough to try and install something like a 10.2 system in their home? Well, okay a few names do come to mind...

[mattlevy]

I have a 6.1 system. I have one of the original THX-EX receivers (Marantz SR-18EX) that has pre-outs to go beyond 5.1. I then have a monoblock amp from Marantz to power the rear-surround. I could have gone 7.1 but that was overkill. My receiver was made at a time when there was no such thing as DTS-ES or DTS 24/96. However, you can play a DTS-ES DVD on my system in 6.1, it is just matrixed instead of discrete. I have to admit that like many other people I believe that the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 (or 6.1 in my case) is very subtle. Unless you have a very very large room, and my room is pretty big, there is no real need for the rear surround. I thought I was missing out on something, but I was mistaken....there is nothing wrong with good old 5.1, particularly with excellent speakers and components. As said before by others, there are very few 6.1 DVDs and no such thing as 7.1 DVDs. I do have FOTR, TTT, Blade 2, and T2 in DTS-ES and the surround back is cool, but not overwhelming. Granted, unfortunately for me, there is not enough space in my room to put the rearspeaker well behind me...I suppose that could make a difference, but I doubt much. I do play many 5.1 titles in THX-EX mode, which makes for more seamless panning as well as its other technological advances. Also, DVD-Audio and SACD titles only go up to 5.1, so you are not going to hear anything out of your rear-surround(s) for those. Regardless, a fine system in 5.1 can still give you that 360 degree or circling effect. Try the song "Toccata" or "Karn Evil 9" from ELP's Brain Salad Surgery in DVD-Audio to see what I mean...it made my jaw drop to the floor. I do think 6.1/7.1 is a marketing thing with each manufacturer trying to outdo the other, and trying to make us the consumer think we are missing out on something new and big. Unless you have an old Dolby Pro Logic receiver (what are you waiting for if you do), you're not missing out if you have DD and DTS in only 5.1.

[htfan14]

Have my Denon 3802 hooked up with 7.1. NO it's not a HUGE difference, but it is worth it to me. Plays all 5.1 recordings in 6.1, same sound from both rears(small diff. but noticable!). Excellent sound in Gladiator, LOTR TT, T2....or any DTS ES.
If you have the equipment/space to add the 2 rears, it's a small $ upgrade for a pair of surrounds and very worthwhile.

[Geoffcin]

Have my Denon 3802 hooked up with 7.1. NO it's not a HUGE difference, but it is worth it to me. Plays all 5.1 recordings in 6.1, same sound from both rears(small diff. but noticable!). Excellent sound in Gladiator, LOTR TT, T2....or any DTS ES.
If you have the equipment/space to add the 2 rears, it's a small $ upgrade for a pair of surrounds and very worthwhile.

Yeah, HUGE was a poor choice of words on my part. But some people were putting it down as a "minimal improvment", so I though I'ld try to compensate.

More like; "It's a great upgrade that's well worth the investment."

[mattlevy]

Actually I thought it might be worthwhile to add that for those thinking about a 7.1 system, the brand new Dolby Pro Logic IIX format will allow one to have 7.1 discrete channels of music or movies on their system. This will allow you to upgrade any stereo or 5.1 channel signal into 7.1. For more info on this, check out the below link -

http://www.dolby.com/Consumer/Technologies/PLIIx/

They always think of something new to make us consumers want more. Jeez, it seems like yesterday when I was playing 8 track and Atari.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Actually I thought it might be worthwhile to add that for those thinking about a 7.1 system, the brand new Dolby Pro Logic IIX format will allow one to have 7.1 discrete channels of music or movies on their system. This will allow you to upgrade any stereo or 5.1 channel signal into 7.1. For more info on this, check out the below link -

http://www.dolby.com/Consumer/Technologies/PLIIx/

They always think of something new to make us consumers want more. Jeez, it seems like yesterday when I was playing 8 track and Atari.

Sorry man, but this is not 7.1 DISCRETE channels. They are matrixed like Dts neo:6

[Zomby]

I bought my reciever with 7 channels with an eye on the feature that allows me to assign 2 channels to another room. I drive two speakers in the front room of my house with a completely seperate (or same) source than my main system.

Great feature for me..

[GaToy]

Actually the rear speakers in the back are running mono. I'm running 7.1 on my 7ES and love it. It really adds a nice touch for rain sequinces and such. True, there is no discrete seventh channel. But I think it's coming one day. Until then I am quite pleased with what I have.

~C.C.~