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  1. #1
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    Any Significant Change in Audio Sound over Past 10-12 Years or So

    Features aside, is there really any difference in the audio sound for say a $1200 Denon 7,1 receiver like mine, the Denon 3801 which came out 10+ years ago and current Denon or similar Receivers to ones listening ear? I use mine for both TV, Blu-ray and CDs. I'm happy with the sound and I've never seen a need to get a more current model.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardGein
    Features aside, is there really any difference in the audio sound for say a $1200 Denon 7,1 receiver like mine, the Denon 3801 which came out 10+ years ago and current Denon or similar Receivers to ones listening ear? I use mine for both TV, Blu-ray and CDs. I'm happy with the sound and I've never seen a need to get a more current model.
    I saw a question on another forum about dac's and how some older dac's are written off, although back in the day they had great reviews. Well, of course there are improvements, but I don't think they are as big as the manufacturers (or some reviewers) claim them to be.

    Good question, maybe there's someone on the forum who's done a side by side comparison of older and new receivers?

  3. #3
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    I use an older Sony A/V for my HT and am quite happy also. Sure, there's been "improvements" as Dolby continue to improve things. Personally, I am happy with what I have and will wait until I am forced to make a purchase. Either my Sony will die, or it will become obsolete. In the meantime, I am enjoying it's capability.

    If you have a TOTL Denon from 10 years ago, it will still sound as sweet as alot of new gear. It just won't have the newst codecs. If I was you, and you want to upgrade, have a look at your speakers.

  4. #4
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    I don't think the sound quality is an issue, but you'd benefit from a way to process the high-def audio formats that are on Blu-ray, if you don't already. I replaced my AV receiver primarily to get HDMI in and decoding of DTS-HD and TrueHD audio.

  5. #5
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardGein
    Features aside, is there really any difference in the audio sound for say a $1200 Denon 7,1 receiver like mine, the Denon 3801 which came out 10+ years ago and current Denon or similar Receivers to ones listening ear? I use mine for both TV, Blu-ray and CDs. I'm happy with the sound and I've never seen a need to get a more current model.
    I have to agree with the audionoob type guy. Lossless audio on Blu ray is the closest to the studio master tapes as we have been in hometheater. Dolby Digital(while sounding fair) was just another step to get us this close, but IMO it was never a cigar. Dts HD Master audio and Dolby TrueHD would be the prime reason I would upgrade my receiver, especially a non HDMI receiver. 7.1 lossless would also be another reason, as very few receivers have 7.1 analog inputs, and even fewer players have 7.1 analog outputs.
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  6. #6
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    I'm getting True Audio on Blu Ray by Denon's Analoge Inputs

    I'm getting my True Audio Blu Ray sound which is awesome by using the Denon's Analog inputs and it sounds great. I specifically got my Blu-Ray player because it had Analog outputs to do this. If some Blu-Ray players didn't come with Analog outputs, I would have replaced my Denon with one that has HDMI (I connect the video portion of the Blu-Ray by HDMI direct to my HDTV). It sounds like I'm of the same mindset as a few of you- until my Denon dies, I'll stick to it unless there's suddenly a receiver for which I'll notice a 15% or better improvement in sound quality to my ears.
    Last edited by EdwardGein; 03-04-2010 at 02:36 AM.

  7. #7
    Charm Thai™
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    As far as amplification goes I think you'll be fine with your current receiver. When i was still using an my Onkyo receiver from 1990 is easily beat the pants off of any of the more recent Onkyo's i'd heard in it's same price range.

    i can't say if that is true of Denon as well but the with the way you're using it in your setup i agree with poppa and would suggest an speaker upgrade if you are looking for a sound change.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardGein
    Features aside, is there really any difference in the audio sound for say a $1200 Denon 7,1 receiver like mine, the Denon 3801 which came out 10+ years ago and current Denon or similar Receivers to ones listening ear? I use mine for both TV, Blu-ray and CDs. I'm happy with the sound and I've never seen a need to get a more current model.
    The amps are better.
    The amps in a modern receiver could run at full power...for about a minute.
    But in order to get the new formats(DTS MASTER, DOLBY TRUE HD) you will need a receiver that can handle those.
    Used to be that an older receiver with a 5.1 or 7.1 in could take the input from a BLU
    player with 7.1 out, but that window is closing fast, 7.1 out is being phased out.
    Are the new formats worth a new receiver?
    YES.
    You can always add an outboard amp or two (or three).
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
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  9. #9
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    The quality of teh amps is relative BTW.
    Ever since receivers went from two channel to multichannel the amps have sucked.
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    The amps are better.
    The amps in a modern receiver could run at full power...for about a minute.
    But in order to get the new formats(DTS MASTER, DOLBY TRUE HD) you will need a receiver that can handle those.
    Used to be that an older receiver with a 5.1 or 7.1 in could take the input from a BLU
    player with 7.1 out, but that window is closing fast, 7.1 out is being phased out.
    Are the new formats worth a new receiver?
    YES.
    You can always add an outboard amp or two (or three).

    Are you sure the 7.1 phono outs are being phased out ?

    I must admit, when I went looking for Sony's blu-ray player, I couldn't find it in the BDP-5x0 series, which I could have sworn had the phono outs for it. Looks like only their higher end ES series does that now -- for a price.

    I'm not about to replace the receiver at this point. It's only 2yrs old and my system before that was 15yrs old. Guess I'll just continue grabbing standard DD/DTS from the TV optical.

  11. #11
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    I'm a Bit Unclear What Your Saying, I'm getting True Audio Sound Just Fine via Analog

    I'm a bit unclear what you're saying. I getting fantastic true audio 5.1 sound (I don't have room for 7 speakers & sub in my apt.- just 5 speakers and sub by using my Panasonic BD55 analog outputs to my Denon Receiver. I realize not all bluray players have analog outputs and I paid extra for this because of it.According to Panasonic the Analog Connection sound will be just as good as HDMI connection sound. I don't quite know what you mean by Dolby True HD (I've been a bit out of the loop) as I thought the sound coming out of a Blu Ray player is called True Audio which I love and is so superior to regularDolby 5,1/7.1 sound.

    As for amplification, I live in an apartment and while I can play things reasonably loud, if I wanted it so loud that someone would think World War 3 has begun, I'd get kicked out of my apartment!
    Last edited by EdwardGein; 03-04-2010 at 05:20 PM.

  12. #12
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevlarus
    Are you sure the 7.1 phono outs are being phased out ?

    I must admit, when I went looking for Sony's blu-ray player, I couldn't find it in the BDP-5x0 series, which I could have sworn had the phono outs for it. Looks like only their higher end ES series does that now -- for a price.

    I'm not about to replace the receiver at this point. It's only 2yrs old and my system before that was 15yrs old. Guess I'll just continue grabbing standard DD/DTS from the TV optical.
    No he is dead wrong about the 7.1 analog outputs being phased out. He is mistaking the component outputs/inputs for video, which will close in 2013. 5.1 analog outputs are not going to be found on budget players because of the associated costs of its inclusion. HDMI is easier and cheaper to implement because the receiver becomes the workhorse - doing all of the post processing instead of the player. This way you can get rid of the extra cost of DAC's and the supporting analog paths, which drives the cost to manufacture the player downward. You will only find 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs on more expensive players.
    Sir Terrence

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    No he is dead wrong about the 7.1 analog outputs being phased out. He is mistaking the component outputs/inputs for video, which will close in 2013. 5.1 analog outputs are not going to be found on budget players because of the associated costs of its inclusion. HDMI is easier and cheaper to implement because the receiver becomes the workhorse - doing all of the post processing instead of the player. This way you can get rid of the extra cost of DAC's and the supporting analog paths, which drives the cost to manufacture the player downward. You will only find 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs on more expensive players.

    Thanks for clearing that up. I guess my bottom line question would then be, is there a noticeable difference in the audio in a 5.1 system in a small room (DD vs DD HD, or DTS vs DTA-HD).

  14. #14
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevlarus
    Are you sure the 7.1 phono outs are being phased out ?

    I must admit, when I went looking for Sony's blu-ray player, I couldn't find it in the BDP-5x0 series, which I could have sworn had the phono outs for it. Looks like only their higher end ES series does that now -- for a price.

    I'm not about to replace the receiver at this point. It's only 2yrs old and my system before that was 15yrs old. Guess I'll just continue grabbing standard DD/DTS from the TV optical.
    No.
    The 7.1 inputs are being phased out, on receivers.
    This is because 7.1 outputs is being phased out on BLU players.
    Thats what I meant.
    This has nothing to do with component video.
    Dont know where Talky made that connection.
    If thats the way he makes connections I would love to see his gear, and the way IT is connected.
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
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  15. #15
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Component is being phased out, at least on DVD players, BTW
    Look for it to disapear soon.
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
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  16. #16
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    No.
    The 7.1 inputs are being phased out, on receivers.
    This is because 7.1 outputs is being phased out on BLU players.
    Thats what I meant.
    This has nothing to do with component video.
    Dont know where Talky made that connection.
    If thats the way he makes connections I would love to see his gear, and the way IT is connected.
    Pix, get out of the budget basement dumpster. 7.1 analog audio inputs and outputs are not disappearing at all. They can be found on receivers and players that you just can't afford which is why YOU don't see them. I found three models from just the Toshiba line of Blu ray players that have them, and I found 10 receivers that have them with just one search.

    If you want to know how my gear is connect, just ask stupid. It is better than making retarded assumptions, but I know you just cannot help yourself.

    I only use HDMI connections period.
    Sir Terrence

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  17. #17
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Component is being phased out, at least on DVD players, BTW
    Look for it to disapear soon.
    We are not talking about DVD players, as they will disappear soon as well.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 03-08-2010 at 07:54 PM.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
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    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
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  18. #18
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevlarus
    Thanks for clearing that up. I guess my bottom line question would then be, is there a noticeable difference in the audio in a 5.1 system in a small room (DD vs DD HD, or DTS vs DTA-HD).
    It really depends on how well that room is acoustically treated, and how well your speakers can resolve fine detail. I setup my friends Klipsch quintet based 5.1 system, and you could hear the noticeable difference between DD and DTHD. His room is acoustically treated.

    I have a 7.1 system in a 12x15x8 ft acoustically treated room based on upgraded ADS L-300 mini monitors, and you REALLY can the difference between lossy and lossless.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    We are not talking about DVD players, as they will disappear soon as well.
    In your fantasy land they probably will.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    It really depends on how well that room is acoustically treated, and how well your speakers can resolve fine detail. I setup my friends Klipsch quintet based 5.1 system, and you could hear the noticeable difference between DD and DTHD. His room is acoustically treated.

    I have a 7.1 system in a 12x15x8 ft acoustically treated room based on upgraded ADS L-300 mini monitors, and you REALLY can the difference between lossy and lossless.
    Thanks for the info.

    Sounds like it would pay to rent a blu player and actually try it using the audio outs of the player and do an A/B comparison of the audio from the same source (yeah, ok, blu will do DD-HD, DTS-HD or DD via toslink). The TV will send DD via optical to the receiver so won't be switching between a DVD or blu player.

  21. #21
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klif570
    In your fantasy land they probably will.
    And in your fantasy land will it last forever. There have already been three manufacturers who have announced they will no longer manufacture DVD players. Oppo was the first.

    You are going to have to let go of old ideas and old technology ole bean, they don't last forever.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 03-09-2010 at 11:41 AM.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  22. #22
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    And in your fantasy land will it last forever. There have already been three manufacturers who have announced they will no longer manufacture DVD players. Oppo was the first.

    You are going to have to let go of old ideas and old technology ole bean, they don't last forever.
    Maybe we need to clarify the statement. Yes, big manufacturers will stop producing DVD players, but they will not become extinct for many, many years. Case in point, look at the VCR player. Those can be found online in many places as well as brick/mortar stores.

    Just because the big boys move on doesn't mean there aren't others to pick up the baton. If you can find VCR players today I'm sure you can find a new DVD player in 10 years. Plus, with the conversion from DVD to Blu, most movie studios will/should include both formats for some time.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    Maybe we need to clarify the statement. Yes, big manufacturers will stop producing DVD players, but they will not become extinct for many, many years. Case in point, look at the VCR player. Those can be found online in many places as well as brick/mortar stores.

    Just because the big boys move on doesn't mean there aren't others to pick up the baton. If you can find VCR players today I'm sure you can find a new DVD player in 10 years. Plus, with the conversion from DVD to Blu, most movie studios will/should include both formats for some time.
    They'll stop making DVD players as the bluray players can also play dvd's, hence it won't leave people out in the cold who already have a DVD collection. Dropping specific dvd players allow the electronic companies (and consumers) to benefit from economies of scale.

    Sony's latest unit (this summer I think) will play bluray,dvd,cd and sa-cd. They are all the the same form factor, unlike the vhs/beta vs. dvd (red & blue lasers not withstanding).

  24. #24
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Pix, get out of the budget basement dumpster. 7.1 analog audio inputs and outputs are not disappearing at all. They can be found on receivers and players that you just can't afford which is why YOU don't see them. I found three models from just the Toshiba line of Blu ray players that have them, and I found 10 receivers that have them with just one search.

    If you want to know how my gear is connect, just ask stupid. It is better than making retarded assumptions, but I know you just cannot help yourself.

    I only use HDMI connections period.
    Just trying to find you something to eat.
    Wait, you can eat crow.
    The new seven series Integra (1400 bucks) has no analog input, or so I was told.
    And none of teh new Blu players do, excepr maybe some off brand crap.
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  25. #25
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardGein
    Features aside, is there really any difference in the audio sound for say a $1200 Denon 7,1 receiver like mine, the Denon 3801 which came out 10+ years ago and current Denon or similar Receivers to ones listening ear?
    While it probably won't make much difference with movies, the DACs found on newer units will most likely sound better with musical content. From a practical standpoint, newer units using HDMI connectivity also eliminate a lot of the cable jungle - especially if you pipe the video through the receiver for switching purposes (which I do not with my pre-HDMI receiver).

    rw

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