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Thread: 3D vs $$

  1. #1
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    3D vs $$

    After several years of quelling my baser instincts to go out and succumb to the smell of fresh electronics... I'm very close to a TV upgrade. Out will go the 200+ pound 32" Sony Wega. In will come a Samsung 50" Plasma. Wheee!

    But. The non-3D PN50C550G1F is currently ~$850 whereas the 3D capable equivalent PN50C7000 is $1550-ish. That's a steep jump for 3D, isn't it? Plus you have to add the glasses and another few bucks for the 3D player over a non-3D one. I could by two non-3D sets.

    Does anyone actually have a 3D set? I'd be sitting a good 12-13 feet back anyway. I'm thinking its not worth it. I do enjoy 3D in the theaters, my 7 year old daughter and I have a good time. I don't subscribe to any extended cable programming, I get the the very basic package, broadcast networks plus PBS etc. No ESPN, HBO... If over the air broadcast went 3D?

    Anyway, just wondering if there's any compelling reason to pay more for 3D.

    tnx

  2. #2
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    I just made the same jump you did last friday. Dumped a 32" panasonic for a 65" panasonic plasma.

    Wow, 700 bones is a very large jump for 3D sheeeesh. I am not interested in 3D at all so the decision was easy for me. I know your daughter enjoys it but i bet you could think of something much better to get her for $700 instead of going 3D.

  3. #3
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    After several years of quelling my baser instincts to go out and succumb to the smell of fresh electronics... I'm very close to a TV upgrade. Out will go the 200+ pound 32" Sony Wega. In will come a Samsung 50" Plasma. Wheee!

    But. The non-3D PN50C550G1F is currently ~$850 whereas the 3D capable equivalent PN50C7000 is $1550-ish. That's a steep jump for 3D, isn't it? Plus you have to add the glasses and another few bucks for the 3D player over a non-3D one. I could by two non-3D sets.

    Does anyone actually have a 3D set? I'd be sitting a good 12-13 feet back anyway. I'm thinking its not worth it. I do enjoy 3D in the theaters, my 7 year old daughter and I have a good time. I don't subscribe to any extended cable programming, I get the the very basic package, broadcast networks plus PBS etc. No ESPN, HBO... If over the air broadcast went 3D?

    Anyway, just wondering if there's any compelling reason to pay more for 3D.

    tnx
    Here is what I would do. I would wait till around Christmas time, and then I would think about buying a new set, whether 3D or not. I say this because there is a panel glut out there, and around Christmas the already discount bluray and televisions, so with sales lagging, they are going to be offering big BIG discounts this year to get product off the shelves.

    The 3D thing...I am going to be totally honest here. I have four 3D sets right now, but only ten 3D movies to feed them. I am a think ahead kind of guy which is why I purchased 3D set in my most recent upgrade. If I was a right now thinker, 3D would not be on my radar because there is just not enough movies to justify the cost of the television. Plus, I think the premium cost on the television over the 2D models is just too high. I think all of the bundling is really hurting both 3D movies sales, and the sales of 3D sets, but from what I understand in talking to various counterparts around Hollywood is that will change in 2011.

    Do I regret my purchases? No! 3D for me is a special event kind of thing, and boy do I enjoy it with my kids when they come by. Also each one of my 3D sets is an excellent 2D set as well, so I can enjoy my current Bluray collection on them. One great thing is that 2011 appears to be the year 3D will earnestly roll out. Bundling will ease up, and more titles will appear. I am even seeing it happen now.

    I would recommend 3D set to anyone. But you must be a forward thinker IMO, or you just cannot justify the cost right now.
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  4. #4
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Forget 3D, still in the gimmick stage, not enough media to warrant a purchase.
    BEST time to buy will be January, or maybe CHRISTMAS eve. BLACK FRI has some good prices, usually about three in stock, and the crowd is nasty, and the lines!
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  5. #5
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Forget 3D, still in the gimmick stage, not enough media to warrant a purchase.
    BEST time to buy will be January, or maybe CHRISTMAS eve. BLACK FRI has some good prices, usually about three in stock, and the crowd is nasty, and the lines!
    SHEESE.
    I remember there was not enough Bluray movies to warrant an upgrade to Bluray. Things changed, just like things will change for 3D.

    If I listened to your advice, I would have a poorly designed and set up system that could not even take advantage of the benefits of the DVD format let alone the Bluray format.
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  6. #6
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I remember there was not enough Bluray movies to warrant an upgrade to Bluray. Things changed, just like things will change for 3D.

    If I listened to your advice, I would have a poorly designed and set up system that could not even take advantage of the benefits of the DVD format let alone the Bluray format.
    You have that now, with your antique CRT setup, you didnt need my advice to screw up your
    screwy system.
    BLU was a totally different deal, it was in competition, so it was not a good buy until you could be sure it was going to be the champ, which I WAS SURE OF AFTER about a
    year.
    Also BLU was the next gen of storage for digital and computer media, getting it is a no
    brainer (so you shouldn't have any trouble) while 3D is a revamped gimmick that has
    never been ready for prime time, might never be.
    THE TWO ARE like apples and PC'S, completely different deals, so of course you
    think they are similar.
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  7. #7
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    You have that now, with your antique CRT setup, you didnt need my advice to screw up your
    screwy system.
    BLU was a totally different deal, it was in competition, so it was not a good buy until you could be sure it was going to be the champ, which I WAS SURE OF AFTER about a
    year.
    Also BLU was the next gen of storage for digital and computer media, getting it is a no
    brainer (so you shouldn't have any trouble) while 3D is a revamped gimmick that has
    never been ready for prime time, might never be.
    THE TWO ARE like apples and PC'S, completely different deals, so of course you
    think they are similar.
    Funny pix, my CRT outperforms your vizio panel in every area accept ultimate light level. Since a properly calibrated set does not need the ultimate light levels your panel has, one could say it outperforms it in all areas.

    Not everything new outperforms everything old. If you were more technically astute, you would know this.

    Also, I saw your little ghetto system in your thread. It matches that little ghetto man at the end of your posts, so at least you are consistent.
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  8. #8
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Or... get Samsung's 1000$ 50" 3D Plasma. It fits my need very well

  9. #9
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Or... get Samsung's 1000$ 50" 3D Plasma. It fits my need very well
    I assume you mean the PN50C680G5F ? That's the lowest Samsung 3D model currently offered that's still 1080p. I shouldn't discount it. The downside for wife approval is that its blue tinted. I don't care that it's thicker and don't care so much that it lacks the 'Samsung Apps" bells and whistles. However, in the States it's retailing around $1300 which is still a jump up from $850.


    I haven't seen any non-animated, non-GC 3D yet. Saw 3D isn't my thing... I'm sure more content will be out soon. I'd feel better about considering 3D if there was any consensus that normal live shows benefit. Sports could be fun in 3D but...I could also imagine it being difficult to watch in 3D. I'm not sure I need more network logos and beer commercials flying at me.

    I'm appreciating the comments!

  10. #10
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    PopSci just did an article on the merit of 3D TV's and came to a few conclusion you may want to consider before you make the plunge:

    1) Plasma is generally better at 3D than LCD. Not that there aren't great LCD 3D tv's (Sony ranked highest, don't remember model #), but it was considerably more expensive than their favorite (Panny).

    2) You must remain vertical while watching. No lying down on the couch!

    3) After 3+ hours, nausea is a very real concern.

    4) The glasses are not universal between sets, they are expensive, and the weight can bother some viewers after awhile, especially younger ones.

    5) Lack of media content.

    I'm not a big proponent of 3D tv's, but I do understand Sir T's philosophy. If you're going to upgrade, it certainly doesn't hurt to go as high as your budget allows. Even if you're not into 3D viewing, there's always the chance you may be in the future as more content becomes available. I'd rather have something and not need it than need it and not have it.

    Good luck in your decision.

  11. #11
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    2011 should be interesting with at least 2 companies looking at 3D without requirement of special glasses. I know Sony is one, don't remember whether the other company was Toshiba or not.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Funny pix, my CRT outperforms your vizio panel in every area accept ultimate light level. Since a properly calibrated set does not need the ultimate light levels your panel has, one could say it outperforms it in all areas.

    Not everything new outperforms everything old. If you were more technically astute, you would know this.

    Also, I saw your little ghetto system in your thread. It matches that little ghetto man at the end of your posts, so at least you are consistent.
    Well, like your girlfriends its all relative.
    I have more blood sweat and tears in my system than you. It takes more ingenuity
    and planning, and sacrifice to build a system on a budget.
    Mine has a 1,000 receiver, a sub costing same, another two grand or so of speakers,
    and at least a grand in cables. Amy my Vizio will be around 20 years after your horse
    and buggy crap has turned to dust. More modest than yours, but a lot would like to have it.
    WHEN YOU START POSTING PICS, then you can talk.
    I know your system cost more, but its what you do with what you have, not what you
    can afford.
    I HAVE SEEN SYSTEMS better than mine that were cheaper, and some high end systems I WOULDNT HAVE. You can't dis anybodies stuff until you show yours.
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  13. #13
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Skip the 3-D. I have not been impressed with 3-D TV. Save the money or use it to buy a better plasma.
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    It would seem bundling would be a good idea, you get everything you need to get started, a 3D movie, the glasses, the player and 3DTV. You have to eventually get that stuff any way.

    Noddinoff, does the price of the Samsung 3D include a bundle?

    Out of curiosity, how much is the Panasonic 65" plasma?

    Pix, looks like your plasma prediction hasn't come true yet.

  15. #15
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Bundling is NOT a good idea. If I buy a Samsung 3DTV, I am not privy to Avatar in 3D, Panasonic has that locked up. It also limits the amount of movies a 3Dtv owner can buy, which is a disincentive to purchase a set.

    If you just put the movies up for sale so everyone can get them, it would sell more sets NOW, instead of next year when they actually do decide to open things up.

    2) You must remain vertical while watching. No lying down on the couch!
    This only applies to certain plasmas, but all LCD's. I now have a Samsung 3Dtv, and I found that I could lay completely down and still not experience any ghosting, or loss of the 3D effect.

    3) After 3+ hours, nausea is a very real concern.
    This is quite frankly just plain false. I watched 6 straight hours of 3D sport programming without experiencing a single negative effect. Many employee's in the post production department of Disney have 3D sets, and none of them have complain of nausea while viewing multiple movies. Avatar was nearly 3 hours long, and I saw it four times in 3D with different people. I never experienced nausea, and neither did the people I was with.

    I am sure some people will experience nausea, but our surveys do not point to widespread nausea when viewing 3D, so it is a person to person issue, and not one every will have to worry about.

    4) The glasses are not universal between sets, they are expensive, and the weight can bother some viewers after awhile, especially younger ones.
    XpanD 3D glasses work on all 3D sets. I know, I own four pairs, and they work on the Panny, Sony and Samsung 3D sets. These are universal glasses designed to work with any shutter based 3D system.

    5) Lack of media content.
    They said this about the Bluray format one time as well. Things changed over time.

    Pix, only you have girlfriends that are relatives.
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  16. #16
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    Skip the 3-D. I have not been impressed with 3-D TV. Save the money or use it to buy a better plasma.

    The 3D plasma sets are usually the better plasma's anyway. All of the current 3D sets sit at the top of the manufacturer product lines, and are usually the better 2D performers I have found in my experience.

    I think you have to live with 3D to be impressed with it. A demo in the store is a terrible place to view 3D. The florescent light can interfer with the transmitters, and 3D should be viewed in complete darkness, not under the harsh lights of a store.
    Sir Terrence

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  17. #17
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    I didn't realize the movie titles were exclusive to one brand to where you couldn't buy it separate if you wish, that is a bad deal. The TV companies must be paying big for that.

  18. #18
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Mr P, Mr T,

    I'm not following yous (the NJ plural) on 'bundling'. I thought that the 3D standard on Blu Ray disks was universal and not brand dependent? Sounds like your saying Avatar can only be viewed 3D on a Panasonic system? That wouldn't make sense.

    The set prices I put up were from Amazon and not bundles. I've been browing BestBuy on line. If you click a bunch of stuff, now I get bundles.

    Bundle #1 => $1699.97
    Samsung 50" 3D (PN50C7000YF) has Samsung apps and stuff, thin
    Samsung blu ray (BD-C5900) w/ internet etc..
    Samsung Starter kit (SSG-P2100X) - 2 glasses and IMAX 3D Blu-ray Disc "features Mummies, Into the Deep and Galapagos"

    Bundle #2 => $1299.98 -- no blu ray player
    Samsung 50" 3D (PN50C680G5F) no apps, thicker
    Samsung Starter kit (SSG-P2100X) - 2 glasses and IMAX 3D Blu-ray Disc "features Mummies, Into the Deep and Galapagos"

    So, add a $200 player and you end up paying an extra $200 for the nicer 50" Plasma. Which in my case doesn't add much that's essential.

    compare all the above to the $850 non-3D + ~$200 for blu ray = $1050

    The gap narrows to close to $400. Hmmm...tempting. :-)

  19. #19
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    This is quite frankly just plain false. I watched 6 straight hours of 3D sport programming without experiencing a single negative effect. Many employee's in the post production department of Disney have 3D sets, and none of them have complain of nausea while viewing multiple movies.
    I might agree, but for a different reason. First of all, I don't experience nausea watching 3D content. Nor do I experience nausea while scuba diving, flying an airplane, or jumping out of a perfectly good one. What I do find is that 3D imparts a level of realism that may well trigger motion sickness for an individual who is already predisposed to that sort of thing. Actually, I think that is good - the ability to to realistically convey that sense of space and movement of flight. My favorite scenes in Avatar are when Jake and Neytiri are flying their Ikran. As a sense junkie, watching that in IMAX 3D imparts that feeling of freedom one gets when flying in a small airplane or parasail. Gimme more!

    Similarly, I don't experience visual fatigue watching in a completely darkened room. When viewing movies on the DLP, we turn out all the lights including those behind the screen in the adjacent kitchen. I am unable to make out the shape of the screen vs. the surrounding walls. If anything, I find peripheral light sources distracting.

    rw

  20. #20
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Mr P, Mr T,

    I'm not following yous (the NJ plural) on 'bundling'. I thought that the 3D standard on Blu Ray disks was universal and not brand dependent? Sounds like your saying Avatar can only be viewed 3D on a Panasonic system? That wouldn't make sense.

    The set prices I put up were from Amazon and not bundles. I've been browing BestBuy on line. If you click a bunch of stuff, now I get bundles.

    Bundle #1 => $1699.97
    Samsung 50" 3D (PN50C7000YF) has Samsung apps and stuff, thin
    Samsung blu ray (BD-C5900) w/ internet etc..
    Samsung Starter kit (SSG-P2100X) - 2 glasses and IMAX 3D Blu-ray Disc "features Mummies, Into the Deep and Galapagos"

    Bundle #2 => $1299.98 -- no blu ray player
    Samsung 50" 3D (PN50C680G5F) no apps, thicker
    Samsung Starter kit (SSG-P2100X) - 2 glasses and IMAX 3D Blu-ray Disc "features Mummies, Into the Deep and Galapagos"

    So, add a $200 player and you end up paying an extra $200 for the nicer 50" Plasma. Which in my case doesn't add much that's essential.

    compare all the above to the $850 non-3D + ~$200 for blu ray = $1050

    The gap narrows to close to $400. Hmmm...tempting. :-)
    Sleepy one you are missing the point of bundling. It has nothing to do with the 3D standards on BR disc, but has everything to do with exclusive 3D titles bundled with certain TV sets.

    Avatar is a title that EVERY 3DTV set owner wants, but unless you own a Panasonic set, you will not have access to it because it is an exclusive title only offered to a Panasonic purchaser. If a person buys a 3DTV from Samsung, Avatar is not accessible to them until the exclusivity contract to Panasonic is lifted. Sony has done the same thing with their titles from their studio and their sets. Samsung has signed exclusivity deals with film studios as well. All of these exclusives(along with a sluggish economy) is slowing down sales of 3D set, because of the lack of titles available to the open market. IMAX 3D titles are not exclusive to anyone, and I have been buying many of these to fill in the lack of movie titles. Things are starting to ease up a bit, but the Avatar exclusivity goes on till next year, and that is a major bummer for those not interested in purchasing a Panasonic set.
    Sir Terrence

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  21. #21
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I might agree, but for a different reason. First of all, I don't experience nausea watching 3D content. Nor do I experience nausea while scuba diving, flying an airplane, or jumping out of a perfectly good one. What I do find is that 3D imparts a level of realism that may well trigger motion sickness for an individual who is already predisposed to that sort of thing. Actually, I think that is good - the ability to to realistically convey that sense of space and movement of flight. My favorite scenes in Avatar are when Jake and Neytiri are flying their Ikran. As a sense junkie, watching that in IMAX 3D imparts that feeling of freedom one gets when flying in a small airplane or parasail. Gimme more!
    I agree with you totally. The problem I see is that 3D is being blamed for issues that really have nothing to do with 3D specifically, but more to do with a persons reaction to hyper real situation such as roller coasters, flying, and height related situations. I call it a ultra sensitivity to hyper reality. I love 3D, but then like you I like parachuting out of planes(man do I love that, and that activity is not far from me), roller coasters, cruises and sailing and various other motion and hyper real activities.

    Similarly, I don't experience visual fatigue watching in a completely darkened room. When viewing movies on the DLP, we turn out all the lights including those behind the screen in the adjacent kitchen. I am unable to make out the shape of the screen vs. the surrounding walls. If anything, I find peripheral light sources distracting.

    rw
    We also agree here. I think if you have a set that takes up a large portion of your field of view, then ambient lighting is just not necessary. However those folks with smaller sets really do need some type of bias lighting in the room, or the muscles in the eyes will get quite a workout adjusting to the different light levels coming from the set. I think folks have the brightness too high on their set in many cases, and that does not help either.
    Sir Terrence

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  22. #22
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    ah...I guess since I haven't been looking for 3D titles that I hadn't noticed this little monopoly competition. I did notice that I wasn't seeing these popular titles on shelves. That's partially what made me wonder if 3D was just not catching on and that possibly the home experience just wasn't all it was promised to be. Wow. What were the studios thinking? Totally slows down adoption.

  23. #23
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    ah...I guess since I haven't been looking for 3D titles that I hadn't noticed this little monopoly competition. I did notice that I wasn't seeing these popular titles on shelves. That's partially what made me wonder if 3D was just not catching on and that possibly the home experience just wasn't all it was promised to be. Wow. What were the studios thinking? Totally slows down adoption.
    Adoption for 3D has been slow, but it has been steady which means the interest is out there, but it is not necessarily lining up with the marketing choices of the retailers and studios.

    The first problem that I can see is that the manufactures did not work with the studios hard enough to get enough titles to support a logical roll out of this expansion of the Bluray format. They did a good job of rolling out the hardware and supporting accessories, but not the software. The second issue revolves around the lack of live action 3D releases relative to the amount of animation. Since 3D in the theater has largely revolved around animation, the lack of breadth of 3D titles is a problem. IMAX offers quite a few live action 3D, but not everyone is into documentaries. This is a problem. The last problem I see is a pricing issue not of the 3D set itself, but of the necessary accessories that go along with it. $150 dollar a piece eye glasses is just not going to cut it, and offering the 3D shutter transmitter as a separate priced piece of the 3D setup is another. Those that bundling these up within the purchase of the set have a decided advantage here. The last issue I see is the lack of 3D projectors - an area where 3D will be as effective at home as in the theater. When I first experienced projection 3D via the LG 3D projector, I was so impressed that I made a second full scale plunge into projection 3D via the Titan Reference 3D projector. As good as panel based 3D is, projection based 3D takes it to the next level.

    It terms of "what were the studios thinking"? Well, most are taking advantage in the short term by getting guaranteed income rather than just letting the titles compete on the market at this point. The studios are looking for 3D as a future revenue booster, but with the lack of sets in the field, they don't see it as pushing movies sales at this point. As more sets get out there, the more income they can expect from 3D titles, and that will push them to create new titles, and convert more 2D titles to 3D when it is possible and visually effective.

    Lastly, while I think the current 3D technology is quite good, I think manufacturers need to work harder on fast pixel refreshing technology, and that goes both for plasma and LCD. Mid level plasma's sets still have issues with phosphor lag, and that leads to ghosting. In saying that, some plasma's do a better job than others in that respect. The upper end plasma's are much better in this respect. LCD based 3D sets definitely need more work, as there is no point in having a faster panel refresh rate if the individual pixels still cannot mechanically twist and untwist fast enough to take advantage of it. At this point it takes a Sony XBRpro (a $40,000 professional LCD panel) with its ultra fast pixel response to achieve a ghost free performance from 3D. All of the manufacturers are working to improve their set performance, but they are not quite there yet though.

    In saying all of that, it still would not stop me from getting a 3D set now. The 2D performance of these sets(I own at least) is outstanding, and a cut above most current high end 2D sets out there now. Knowing that my set performs well with already established 1080p 2D video is a big plus even if 3D is not quite established yet.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
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  24. #24
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Funny pix, my CRT outperforms your vizio panel in every area accept ultimate light level. Since a properly calibrated set does not need the ultimate light levels your panel has, one could say it outperforms it in all areas.

    Not everything new outperforms everything old. If you were more technically astute, you would know this.

    Also, I saw your little ghetto system in your thread. It matches that little ghetto man at the end of your posts, so at least you are consistent.
    AND THIS post of yours is just as obnoxious as the rest of the drivel you spew out,
    so you're pretty regular too.
    IF a HT setup costing in excess of ten grand is "ghetto" then theres a lot of "ghetto boyz"
    on this site. AS FOR YOUR "system" it starts out of the box behind and stays there.
    If you really knew anything you would know that comparing a modern system to your
    science project is same as comparing apples and oranges.
    I saw the BURT RUTAN spaceship one recently, and the space shuttle blows its doors
    off in every respect, but guess which one is the future, AND WHICH IS THE PAST.
    Same for your antique. You can get a DLP that outperforms it at every level, you can get
    a 60" (five foot) for less than 1500.
    CRT is
    DEAD
    and so is its Bas**** child plasma, BTW.
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    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
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    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  25. #25
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    Anyone making a HDTV purchase should NOT wait till near Christmas. The near Christmas prices never beat Black Friday prices and this year is no exception.

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