1080i or 720p?

[Woochifer]

I would imagine that your friend is the exception to the rule and is fortunate. Apex is also a company that didn't make replacement parts for its products yet, perplexingly, offered warranties. Didn't thay have something like 40 million dvd players die over a couple of years? My understanding is that's one of the reasons why the CEO is in jail...in China.

Perhaps not a business model that works for everyone.

The disposable TV business model works if the objective is to quickly move a large volume of TVs, and sell them for cheap without regard to aftersales support or customer loyalty.

Apex and Vizio are kindred spirits because both companies' primary function is marketing. Neither company manufactures anything, does much R&D, or even handle customer service calls. Everything is outsourced. Vizio is a billion dollar company with less than 100 employees. Apex WAS a billion dollar company with less than 100 employees.

Apex didn't make replacement parts available because all of their production runs were one-off contracts. Once the outsource manufacturer produced the specified quantity of TVs or DVD players, that was it. No continuity from one production run to another. Many of those outsource plants were fly-by-night operations that ramped up for large production runs, and then promptly dismantled the assembly line once they completed the run. (I once read that after the price points fell through the floor back in 2003, over 100 Chinese DVD player plants closed up shop) Apex never even issued service manuals, so even if somebody wanted to repair an Apex product, the repair shops had no schematics or parts lists to go off of.

Apex's former CEO is in a Chinese jail because of fraud and nonpayment to one of his many outsource vendors.

Vizio operates very similarly in that they contract for one-off production runs and might use a completely different design and manufacturer from one year's model to the next. Vizio didn't hire anyone to setup authorized repair centers or even make spare parts available on their TVs until July 2007 (which is also when they lost their lead in HDTV sales), and those parts inventories only covered their most recent models. Until Vizio hired somebody to handle the repairs and spare parts distribution, their warranty service was pretty much identical to Apex's coverage -- ship the TV back to the company on your own dime, and if it cannot be repaired, a refurb gets shipped to you (again, you pay the shipping charges).

Polaroid, Westinghouse, and even Best Buy's in-house Insignia brand are all similar in that they too are off-brand TVs with no spare parts distribution.

This is quite different from Samsung or Panasonic's business model, given that both companies manufacture most of the major components in their TVs, and make spare parts readily available for TV models dating back many years. Other companies like Sony and Toshiba rely a little more on outsourcing major components, but they still take the steps to make sure that customers have easy access to service and parts.

[Rich-n-Texas]

The point about my niece is that there are probably 100's of 1000's of people just like her who either don't want to bother doing the proper research before making the purchase or they simply don't know the data is available. I read some reviews about this Polariod TV and the common problem was with the power supply crapping out within 8 to 12 months. Customer service was rediculous and repair time was worse. And yes, the customer was responsible for back-n-forth shipping IIRC.

I don't dispute anything you're saying here Wooch, but like they say... there's just no accounting for some people's tastes, or sensibilities for that matter.

[Woochifer]

The point about my niece is that there are probably 100's of 1000's of people just like her who either don't want to bother doing the proper research before making the purchase or they simply don't know the data is available. I read some reviews about this Polariod TV and the common problem was with the power supply crapping out within 8 to 12 months. Customer service was rediculous and repair time was worse. And yes, the customer was responsible for back-n-forth shipping IIRC.

At least those TVs could be dealt with under warranty.

One of Gary Merson/HD Guru's findings from interviewing company reps about their warranty policies is that off-brands like Polaroid, Westinghouse, and Insignia won't even deal with you once the warranty expires. The Polaroid rep he talked to basically admitted that they make no provisions for post-warranty servicing -- no authorized repair centers, no spare parts -- you're basically buying a disposable TV.

Vizio operated that way as well, until they changed their repair policies not long after the original article came out. But, even now, their coverage still falls short of what the name brand TV companies offer, and there's no guarantee of spare parts availability for any Vizio TVs made before July 2007.

[pixelthis]

At least those TVs could be dealt with under warranty.

One of Gary Merson/HD Guru's findings from interviewing company reps about their warranty policies is that off-brands like Polaroid, Westinghouse, and Insignia won't even deal with you once the warranty expires. The Polaroid rep he talked to basically admitted that they make no provisions for post-warranty servicing -- no authorized repair centers, no spare parts -- you're basically buying a disposable TV.

Vizio operated that way as well, until they changed their repair policies not long after the original article came out. But, even now, their coverage still falls short of what the name brand TV companies offer, and there's no guarantee of spare parts availability for any Vizio TVs made before July 2007.

More lies and half truths from a propaganda spewing website backed by the biggest maker of plasma screens yet.
NO company will deal with you once the warrenty expires.
I couldnt get volkswagen to deal with me a month after the warrenty expired.
No, poloroid , insignia , etc wont deal with you after the warrenty expires.
THEY HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO.
Sony, PANASONIC , WILL, but you will have to pay for such service.
Its common in todays electronics industry to have companies that dont service products out of warrenty.
This includes the companies, but by omision you try to make it seem unusual,
when its actually commonplace in the industry.
Your merson guy isnt a tech, BTW, hes been a PR FLACK for thirty years,
his job is lying for a living, no wonder you quote him so much.
AND the goal for the television industry is a 32" 300$ DISPOSABLE LCD screen.
In every industry the goal has been for long lived disposable products, this way you sell more new stuff, and you dont get the inherent problems associated with fixing anything.
BUT of course this is news to you, as most ANYTHING is.

[GMichael]

More lies and half truths from a propaganda spewing website backed by the biggest maker of plasma screens yet.
NO company will deal with you once the warrenty expires.
I couldnt get volkswagen to deal with me a month after the warrenty expired.
No, poloroid , insignia , etc wont deal with you after the warrenty expires.
THEY HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO.
Sony, PANASONIC , WILL, but you will have to pay for such service.
Its common in todays electronics industry to have companies that dont service products out of warrenty.
This includes the companies, but by omision you try to make it seem unusual,
when its actually commonplace in the industry.
Your merson guy isnt a tech, BTW, hes been a PR FLACK for thirty years,
his job is lying for a living, no wonder you quote him so much.
AND the goal for the television industry is a 32" 300$ DISPOSABLE LCD screen.
In every industry the goal has been for long lived disposable products, this way you sell more new stuff, and you dont get the inherent problems associated with fixing anything.
BUT of course this is news to you, as most ANYTHING is.

Reputable companies supply parts for repairs. They authorize contracted repair centers to do out of warranty repairs. Both Epson and Toshiba supply parts for 6 years after their models are out of warranty. Companies like HP and Canon not only supply parts and service for several years but also make the specs of their parts available to 3rd party companies to make once they've stopped supporting their older models.
No propaganda here. I work at a parts distributor which is also an authorized repair center.

[Ajani]

the goal for the television industry is a 32" 300$ DISPOSABLE LCD screen.
In every industry the goal has been for long lived disposable products, this way you sell more new stuff, and you dont get the inherent problems associated with fixing anything.

So you support Visio and other off brands producing 'disposable' LCDs, but you have a problem with the lifespan of Plasma TVs?

I've owned both LCD Projection and Plasma TVs (a 52 inch and a 42 inch Panasonic, respectively).... IMO. both were/are great TVs...

Whether, you should buy an LCD or a Plasma really just depends on your needs and budget...

The strangest part about all these conspiracy theories is that Panasonic is not JUST a Plasma manufacturer... Panasonic produces/has produced just about all the flat panel technologies: Plasma, LCD, LCD Projection, DLP Projection... and will likely embrace any new tech that emerges... So the logic that they would choose to invest so heavily in a 'sinking ship' and have to rely on propaganda to generate sales is ludicrous... They could easily have ditched Plasma and just gone LCD for their entire range if they had wanted to (instead of opening new Plasma factories)....

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The rational and logical trying to school the irrational and illogical. Reality versus denial. It seems to me we are wasting our breath here trying to school a fool. However maybe something will get through Pix's thick empty skull.

[GMichael]

The rational and logical trying to school the irrational and illogical. Reality versus denial. It seems to me we are wasting our breath here trying to school a fool. However maybe something will get through Pix's thick empty skull.

I think that he gets more of it than he lets on. He just likes to fight. Can you can relate to that?

[Woochifer]

More lies and half truths from a propaganda spewing website backed by the biggest maker of plasma screens yet.

More irrational denials of reality from the biggest LCD/Vizio fanboy on this site.

NO company will deal with you once the warrenty expires.
I couldnt get volkswagen to deal with me a month after the warrenty expired.
No, poloroid , insignia , etc wont deal with you after the warrenty expires.
THEY HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO.

And that's why companies that DO provide post-warranty service have a greater commitment to KEEPING their customers once they sell a product to them. Off-brand companies are only concerned about making a quick sales now, not keeping that customer for years down the road.

Sony, PANASONIC , WILL, but you will have to pay for such service.

They also make spare parts available to anyone who'd rather have a local repair shop work on it. The Polaroid rep basically admitted that one of their TVs out-of-warranty can't be fixed.

Its common in todays electronics industry to have companies that dont service products out of warrenty.

But, it's common among the top tier electronics companies to make sure that their products can be serviced once you get out of the warranty period. Even now, after Vizio signed up some outsourcers for service and parts distribution, they still can't ensure spare parts availability for sets more than 18 months old.

Your merson guy isnt a tech, BTW, hes been a PR FLACK for thirty years,
his job is lying for a living, no wonder you quote him so much.

And your non-techie job is staring at a hospital security screen. Difference though is that Merson actually has hands-on experience testing TVs, while your definition of testing is sharing your musings with the box boys at Sams Club. You don't do this for a living, but that doesn't stop you from lying anyway.

AND the goal for the television industry is a 32" 300$ DISPOSABLE LCD screen.

So, you admit that your cheap TV is disposable?

In every industry the goal has been for long lived disposable products, this way you sell more new stuff, and you dont get the inherent problems associated with fixing anything.

Difference is that legitimate companies stand behind their products in the event that they do fail, while fly-by-night marketers don't care if customers are left with expensive paperweights when they can't find spare parts or service manuals to fix broken sets. I guess that's news to you!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think that he gets more of it than he lets on. He just likes to fight. Can you can relate to that?

Not really, not anymore, and certainly not with him.

[bobsticks]

Not really, not anymore, and certainly not with him.

Ju want part o' me, mang?

[Woochifer]

Ju want part o' me, mang?

NOW you're relatin' to him!

[Ace H]

I've been extremely busy so I'm just getting back to this thread. I finally got around to play with the cable box and in the MENU, there are options to change the output format to 1080i (among others). I did change to 1080i and now it does broadcast HD channels in 1080i.

I don't see much difference right now. I'll leave it set to 1080i for now and see what happens. Having said that, given a choice of output format which would YOU choose 720p or 1080i?

[02audionoob]

I've been extremely busy so I'm just getting back to this thread. I finally got around to play with the cable box and in the MENU, there are options to change the output format to 1080i (among others). I did change to 1080i and now it does broadcast HD channels in 1080i.

I don't see much difference right now. I'll leave it set to 1080i for now and see what happens. Having said that, given a choice of output format which would YOU choose 720p or 1080i?

I'd choose the one that matches my TV best. The p is the prevailing thing out there, but many people do have 1080i sets that they connect to the cable box with analog cables. Since you've got HDMI, you might as well get the p instead of the i.

[Ace H]

I have a new Sony HDTV which is capable of output up to 1080p via HDMI. I wanted this info for watching HDTV via a HD Cable Box which gives me a choice of output formats of 720p and 1080i among other formats, since cable TV does not output 1080p signals (at least not in my area).

[Woochifer]

I've been extremely busy so I'm just getting back to this thread. I finally got around to play with the cable box and in the MENU, there are options to change the output format to 1080i (among others). I did change to 1080i and now it does broadcast HD channels in 1080i.

I don't see much difference right now. I'll leave it set to 1080i for now and see what happens. Having said that, given a choice of output format which would YOU choose 720p or 1080i?

If you have the option, I would just leave the HD channels at the native resolution, and let your TV do the upscaling. Keep in mind that some channels are natively 720p while others are 1080i. Anecdotally, the networks broadcasting in 720p transmit noticeably less image detail than 1080i, but without a comparison, there's no way of knowing if this is just compression coming off the production truck or if it's an issue particular to the resolution itself.

If you force the resolution to rescale at either 720p or 1080i, then you're potentially taking a native 720p or 1080i signal, rescaling it to 720p/1080i, and then sending it to the TV where it gets rescaled yet again to 1080p. Do some experimenting and see what you like best.

With Directv, I noticed that the satellite receiver does not do as good a job at deinterlacing and rescaling as my TV does (visible streaking when the satellite receiver does the upconversion), so I just run everything at native resolution.

The native resolution used by the different networks splits roughly down the middle, but more networks transmit in 1080i. Here's how the split looks.

720p: ABC, Fox, ESPN Networks, A&E Networks (A&E, History, Biography), Fox Sports Net, Fox News, Fox Business, CBS College Sports, MLB Network, Disney Channels (Disney, Toon Disney, ABC Family)

1080i: NBC, CBS, CNN, HDNet, NFL Network, Discovery Networks, National Geographic, HDTV, Food Network, Weather Channel, HBO, Showtime, TNT, USA, TBS, MTV Networks, Nickelodeon Networks, CNBC

[Ace H]

Unfortunately my cable box does not offer a "native resolution" output. So among the higher resolutions I can either choose 720p or 1080i.

[02audionoob]

I have a new Sony HDTV which is capable of output up to 1080p via HDMI. I wanted this info for watching HDTV via a HD Cable Box which gives me a choice of output formats of 720p and 1080i among other formats, since cable TV does not output 1080p signals (at least not in my area).

I was just thinking that if you choose 1080i, your set will deinterlace it. It could probably do a good job of that, but it seems like it would be better to just let your set scale it from 720p to 1080p rather than deinterlace it.

[Woochifer]

Unfortunately my cable box does not offer a "native resolution" output. So among the higher resolutions I can either choose 720p or 1080i.

So, when you specify 1080i, does that mean that ALL channels get output in 1080i? Sounds like a badly designed cable box.

[Ace H]

Yes, the channels all output at whatever you select on the cable box.

[Woochifer]

The strangest part about all these conspiracy theories is that Panasonic is not JUST a Plasma manufacturer... Panasonic produces/has produced just about all the flat panel technologies: Plasma, LCD, LCD Projection, DLP Projection... and will likely embrace any new tech that emerges... So the logic that they would choose to invest so heavily in a 'sinking ship' and have to rely on propaganda to generate sales is ludicrous... They could easily have ditched Plasma and just gone LCD for their entire range if they had wanted to (instead of opening new Plasma factories)....

Pixie will probably chime in with his tired retort that Panasonic purposely makes inferior LCD TVs as part of their conspiracy to brainwash the public into buying plasma.

Of course, he'll also conveniently ignore the news out of CES that Panasonic just came out with one of the most energy efficient LCD panels on the market with motion resolution performance that they claim matches last year's plasma models without the reduced viewing angle found in other LED backlit LCDs. Oh, but I'm sure that greatly improving their LCD products is not good enough, since Panasonic insists on improving their plasmas as well (HOW DARE THEY!), with this year's upcoming plasma models using a 1" thick panel and reducing the energy consumption by up to 30% while achieving 100% motion resolution performance.

[Woochifer]

I was just thinking that if you choose 1080i, your set will deinterlace it. It could probably do a good job of that, but it seems like it would be better to just let your set scale it from 720p to 1080p rather than deinterlace it.

That would depend on how good a job the cable box does at deinterlacing a 1080i picture and the rescaling it down to 720p. When I tried rescaling a 1080i picture to 720p on my Directv box, I noticed a slight loss in picture detail. Outputing a 720p channel as a 1080i signal, I didn't notice much difference (then again, I didn't try this comparison with sports programming).

Obviously, the outcome for Ace would depend on the quality of the video processors in his cable box and/or his TV. In my situation, the video processing in the Directv receiver was not as good as with my TV, so I let went with native resolution.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Pix brings out the best in you T. Everybody here knows that.

[02audionoob]

That would depend on how good a job the cable box does at deinterlacing a 1080i picture and the rescaling it down to 720p.

Good point. I'd forgotten about the fact that the HD channel is most likely 1080i to begin with. So then it makes more sense to let the TV set just convert from 1080i to 1080p. It's one less conversion step.