Who or what is a Audiophile?

[Ajani]

JM and Ajani,
Your interchanges with each other are exactly why I have dismissed, and never have tried to understand the whole audiophile label. You cannot get a real answer to what an audiophile is. Some say its a love of music played through high quality equipment, some say its a lover of music, some say its a love of the equipment, and everyone has such hard a fast believe that they are right in their definition, that is sounds like everyone is wrong.

How can I believe or even understand what an audiophile is if nobody can agree to what it is?

I am left with so many impressions based on what I have seen. Some guys spend a ton of cash on their systems and had every tweak you could imagine. Quite frankly it sounds like crap. But they bragged continuously about how much it cost. They claimed they were audiophiles. Lover of equipment perhaps? Others claim they were audiophiles, and love great music. They usually had poorly set up systems with no line symmetry, which means no imaging. The loved the music, and wanted to hear it from their favorite seats in a room. They were not looking for a concert hall sound - just that it sounded good with good recordings.

I have had so many impressions, but absolutely no consensus to what "audiophile" means.

hehehe... Seems my evil scheme has worked...

Seriously though; that is essentially my point that there is NO real definition of what an audiophile is... While I do understand and respect JM and others attempts to define one, the problem is that there is no consensus... and frankly, there never can be...

The person who has a "horrible sounding but very expensive and constantly tweaked system" would claim persons like JM or myself are not really audiophiles as we are too content with our 'mediocre' systems.... while we would regard them more as obsessed tech lovers than real audiophiles...

At the end of the day, none of it really matters... If you feel like calling yourself an audiophile then so be it... If you don't then that's cool too... Whether I call myself and audiophile or not really just depends on what mood I'm in...

[Ajani]

Audiophile = someone willing to spend money on music and a play back method

.... especially in this economy.

LOL

There are a whole lot of audiophiles by that definition...

[atomicAdam]

Audiophile = someone willing to spend money on music and a play back method

.... especially in this economy.

[Ajani]

I like music, not arguments.

Nothing like the sweet cacophony of an argument...

[bobsticks]

I like music, not arguments.

[Ajani]

Looks like the Space/Time Continuum is collapsing again...

[atomicAdam]

yeah - I let IT know.

But wait - you are in Jamaica right? You sure it isn't something you haven't been smoking?

[RGA]

"I think MC gets knocked largely because of the expense involved. I have heard lots of multi-channel set-ups but if I don't like the sound of the speakers in 2 channel - I don't see how adding 5-6 more of those speakers is going to make it better. And the speakers I like cost a bomb".

RGA,
I am consistently hearing this argument, and I quite frankly don't buy it. Last week I auditioned two mini-monitor based multichannel systems, one featuring the Sunfire CRM-2, and the other based on a custom design. These systems were assembled for me, and what surprised me was the quality of the sound I was hearing from the components(they both used receivers, and a PS3 for playback). Total cost for the speakers systems was about $5800, the receivers about $1200 a piece, and the PS3's were the older fat boys with SACD playback. The entire system cost less than $10k, and the sound was just magnificent from each of these systems. Going from my system in my signature to these systems never made be feel like I was losing anything. They sounded excellent with two channel music as they did with multichannel. I had just one complaint with the Sunfire speaker system. Their cutoff point was 115hz, so you had to use a 120hz crossover point to the sub. On occasion I was able to locate the sub because of that high crossover point, and the sub position in the room(It sat right behind the center speaker in the middle of the front wall)

This listening session taught me a very valuable lesson. High quality can be had at many price points, and system synergy is as important as the quality of the individual components. The guy who put this listening session together carefully chose components that work very well together. As you can see, the system was not all that expensive.

Maybe I didn't say it well. The Audio Note AX Two is a $700 list pair of speakers. I could buy 3 sets of those for $2100 - add a processor and a couple of subs - the bass of the standmounts likely go to 60hz. Perhaps for the front L/R I could get the AZ Two standmount which run about $1300 and Hi-Fi Choice measured them down to 20hz in room and flat at 26 or 28hz. Not bad for small floorstander in an OB/Transmission line/Horn design.

I could be happy with with them in two channel. The problem is that most music is recorded and meant to be played in 2 channel. So when a person listens in 2 channel - the choice becomes do I want the best 2 channel reproducer or am I going to handcuff it with a lower model L/R speaker to gain the advantage of the much fewer MC recordings.

Not everyone has speakers they can add like sounding (ideall the exact same speakers) in a surround set-up. The only truly good set-ups I have heard for MC was when all the speakers were exactly the same speaker - those cneter channels that lie sideways - yet to hear a good set-up for music in such configurations.

I know from a retired dealer that George Lucas favored M&K for such applications and they're not all that expensive at all - a whole system can easily be had from them for under $8k including subs.

[Ajani]

yeah - I let IT know.

But wait - you are in Jamaica right? You sure it isn't something you haven't been smoking?

I take deep offense to that comment...

I've been un-high for like a whole 3 hours already!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I take deep offense to that comment...

I've been un-high for like a whole 3 hours already!

yeah but your eyes are still red. Either your angry, or you are......well....

[atomicAdam]

I take deep offense to that comment...

I've been un-high for like a whole 3 hours already!

Time to go to work or something?

[Ajani]

Maybe I didn't say it well. The Audio Note AX Two is a $700 list pair of speakers. I could buy 3 sets of those for $2100 - add a processor and a couple of subs - the bass of the standmounts likely go to 60hz. Perhaps for the front L/R I could get the AZ Two standmount which run about $1300 and Hi-Fi Choice measured them down to 20hz in room and flat at 26 or 28hz. Not bad for small floorstander in an OB/Transmission line/Horn design.

I could be happy with with them in two channel. The problem is that most music is recorded and meant to be played in 2 channel. So when a person listens in 2 channel - the choice becomes do I want the best 2 channel reproducer or am I going to handcuff it with a lower model L/R speaker to gain the advantage of the much fewer MC recordings.

Not everyone has speakers they can add like sounding (ideall the exact same speakers) in a surround set-up. The only truly good set-ups I have heard for MC was when all the speakers were exactly the same speaker - those cneter channels that lie sideways - yet to hear a good set-up for music in such configurations.

I know from a retired dealer that George Lucas favored M&K for such applications and they're not all that expensive at all - a whole system can easily be had from them for under $8k including subs.

I'm sure I've seen this debate a few times before between E-Stat and Sir T (and possibly even myself) if I'm not mistaken...

I agree with you though... The question of whether to spend your budget on MC or stereo should be based on your music collection...

My entire music collection is stereo... So naturally my budget for upgrades is geared towards a stereo system rather than MC... Just the same way as I don't spend money on a TT as all my music is digital... and I'd have a very hard time sourcing vinyl locally...

Also, though you two keep talking about putting together good MC systems around $8K to $10K, that's still not exactly chump change...

For around $1K retail I could put together some fun stereo setups:

Nad integrated amp and CD player with PSB Alpha monitors

OR

Squeezebox Touch with Focal CMS40 Active Monitors

OR

Project Essential Turntable with Miniwatt SET amp and HSU HB1 Horn Monitors

At that price, I suspect I'd be stuck looking at HT-In-A-Box systems if I wanted MC... and I've yet to hear HT in a box that sounded good with music...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I could be happy with with them in two channel. The problem is that most music is recorded and meant to be played in 2 channel. So when a person listens in 2 channel - the choice becomes do I want the best 2 channel reproducer or am I going to handcuff it with a lower model L/R speaker to gain the advantage of the much fewer MC recordings.

You are perpetuating a myth here. Who says you must trade down in quality just to get multichannel sound? Remember, the objectives of both kinds of systems are completely different. A two channel system seeks precision and accuracy that covers only 90 to 120 degrees in front of us. A multichannel system seeks that same precision 360 degrees around our heads. As long as each system meets their desired objectives, then there is no need to lower your performance perspective. One system can do both well.

Not everyone has speakers they can add like sounding (ideall the exact same speakers) in a surround set-up. The only truly good set-ups I have heard for MC was when all the speakers were exactly the same speaker - those cneter channels that lie sideways - yet to hear a good set-up for music in such configurations.

Since all of my systems use vertically placed center speakers like the L/R mains, I don't have that kind of trade off. I believe all of the speakers must have drivers with the same orientation, or you won't get that "acoustical bubble" effect. Accurate imaging is very important to me, and a horizontally mounted center speaker would totally destroy that.

I know from a retired dealer that George Lucas favored M&K for such applications and they're not all that expensive at all - a whole system can easily be had from them for under $8k including subs.

I he is right for liking them. I have a 7.1 system in my family vacation spot that features 3 stacked pairs of M&K MPS2510P speakers(yes two stacked speakers for each of the L/C/R channels), and four more surround speakers. They are combined with two M&K MPS5310 subs, and you have a system that is accurate, and extremely loud and clean.

Lucas uses M&K's in his sound editing suites.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm sure I've seen this debate a few times before between E-Stat and Sir T (and possibly even myself) if I'm not mistaken...

Your not!

I agree with you though... The question of whether to spend your budget on MC or stereo should be based on your music collection..

I absolutely agree with this. However, my way to look at this is, am I going to stick with two channel forever, or can I have a quality system that is ready to play any and every format whether 2.0 to 7.1? I chose the latter.

My entire music collection is stereo... So naturally my budget for upgrades is geared towards a stereo system rather than MC... Just the same way as I don't spend money on a TT as all my music is digital... and I'd have a very hard time sourcing vinyl locally...

So you have no interest in purchasing multichannel music in the future? I guess when I am putting together a system, I am always looking for an easy upgrade path. I already had a 7.1 system before I had 7.1 software, that is how I think. Until I had 7.1 discrete software, I used prologic IIx to send 5.1 to the rear channels.

Also, though you two keep talking about putting together good MC systems around $8K to $10K, that's still not exactly chump change...

Yes, but most "audiophiles" pay more than that for their setups.

For around $1K retail I could put together some fun stereo setups:

Nad integrated amp and CD player with PSB Alpha monitors

OR

Squeezebox Touch with Focal CMS40 Active Monitors

OR

Project Essential Turntable with Miniwatt SET amp and HSU HB1 Horn Monitors

At that price, I suspect I'd be stuck looking at HT-In-A-Box systems if I wanted MC... and I've yet to hear HT in a box that sounded good with music...

You may spend more than 1K for a multichannel system, you can use it for more than one purpose. You can use it for movies AND music. It makes it more of a value IMO.

[RGA]

The problem for me is that in 2 channel I like Audio Note speakers a lot more than I like the sound of M&K standmounts with a sub for the reproduction of 2 channel music. To me it's not close.

I like the sound of the M&K in movies and surround sound music mind you but to me I would be giving up a LOT in 2 channel.

So the choices either become buy a second system for home theater/MC which I have often considered doing - or taking my system and adding to it by adding 2 rears and a pair of speakers to be used as a center channel which does work and then adding two subwoofers. My mains by themselves go below 30hz so I can set two subwoofer low enough that that I should not be able to locate them - which for whatever reason I always seem to be able to do. Apparently people should not detect location of subwoofers below 80hz but after a while I tend to locate a "weight" in the given region - ie the left if that is where the sub is situated. It's annoying and a reason I got rid of my highly touted subwoofer back in the day. UHF and others note that to do it right you really need two subwoofers and my experience concurs with that.

I can get speakers that are voiced similarly but to get the 2 more sets is well out of my price range. The cheaper alternative is actually a whole second dedicated system for me.

And some of us are picky about electronics - I have yet to see a a 7.2 Single Ended amplification system with zero feedback. That SS glare just doesn't go away - I can put up with it for home theater since we don't have reference point cues for explosions and our ears will likely focus on "effects" related sound through rear channels lessening the focus on instrument timbre. Ie - there is more to try and concentrate on and the finer points or details will be less noticed or "forgiven" by our ears due to more stimulation. The brightness in the M&K is far less a problem in home theater or MC music than it is when directly comparing it to better speakers on 2 channel for instance which is probably why I liked it for one application and not the other.

I think all of the above is different if you are starting out. Ajani noted that he has no vinyl turntable - well if you live in an area where this none - and the relatively high expense to geta high quality turntable - and then all the accessories and good phono stage and record cleaners - bah- don't bother.

As I said - if someone has invested $20,000 on their home 2 channel stereo and they own AN E speakers or Quad 2905 planars there is only so much one will be able to do here. Especially if they love the sound of it and own SE tube amps. Most of these amps do not have subwoofer outputs for a start - they are old school and have limited connection options.

If they love their speakers on 2 channel and have 5000 albums what can they realistically do here? There is not "matching" with Quads to a dynamic coned box. As the AN guy I can get "close" and run some of the smaller sets of speakers but again my amp has no Sub out. There is no SS amp that sounds like the OTO on two channel music (read or remotely as good) so it has to stay in the chain at least on 2 channel. A separate amp can drive the center and rears and do the processing and I'd be fine with changing the cables over (some people would not).

There is a lot of things that MC has that put a lot of people off. The ergonomics, the expense, it forces many to sell their systems, the space requirements and in the end IMO it is not done cheaply while retaining the quality of two channel - there is a reason I have $5000 standmounts not $500 standmounts. And I have heard most of the big time professional grade loudspeakers "before" I bought what I did - Genelec, PMC, B&W, M&K for example. If I liked their $1000 speakers better I would have bought them. In B&W's case I like their $15k+ speakers less let alone their $1k speakers.

[Raj J]

In my humble opinion - anyone can be an audiophile!

You necessarily don't have to have the big bucks to be classified as an audiophile; it's just that the way of this industry with the flashy names and expensive products that are of highend nature has somewhat defined this classification, and therefore if someone can afford these system and enjoys listening to music on such systems then they must truly be an audiophile - load of bollocks!

I personally know far too many out there you are well capable of affording the ultra highend, but don't have a dam clue at what they're listening to, or even how to listen to begin with... sad story indeed.

In my definition an audiophile is someone who genuinely loves music and has a passion for it. Such that they will in that case search for the ultimate reference system they could possible afford to playback their favorite type of music genre. This person will also look after their equipment very carefully as well, taking good care of it to last in the long term, hence if something happened to it they will go out of their way to fix it, or even purchase another solution. An audiophile is also someone who has to listen to their music often as possible or as a weekly routine, as a means of therapy and feeling relaxed. Otherwise they will go NUTS! like me...

An audiophile will not spend money on booze, gambling, & women, rather will devote that spend on their system upgrades - hence those with wives tell your wives we are honest truthful people & only have a passion for quality music.

Finally and probably the most important aspect is that an audiophile should know how the absolute sound is or what TAS should sound like - live with realism; hence their goal is to reproduce this aspect in their own homes at whatever budget they can afford.

Therefore, if they have achieved this by only spending 5 grand that's great! If there are others who have achieved this by spending 10 grand, or over 20 grand, good on you! Afterall you would all have to have the same principle in mind that your current system is giving you the utmost satisfaction to that absolute sound.

That's what an audiophile is compared to a music enthusiast, and don't forget audiophiles take quite sometime to achieve this, generally a span of over 10 to 15 years to get it right. Not some one day rich guy who just blew 100 grand on some system & doesn't even know the brand! I actaully know of 3 people like this... and they still haven't got it right!

Cheers to those of you who have achieved your quest in audio perfection and the max you are getting out of your current systems. Ask yourselves if it is truly what YOU were after? if so you have achieved it!
Best regards, RJ

[Woochifer]

This is why I refrain from the "audiophile" label. A lot of people try to lay claim to the label based on their preferences and their biases. Anyone who doesn't follow a narrow definition of orthodoxy doesn't qualify as an audiophile. I mean if the definition of an audiophile is limited to two-channel, then that would disqualify anyone who sets foot into the multichannel sphere. That's patently absurd.

So, yes I am into good sound reproduction, and I am into audio equipment. But, I'm not going to get into a semantic exercise with someone who wants to argue that my preferences and habits automatically disqualify me from getting anointed with the audiophile label. That's why I don't lay claim to it, and prefer to discuss audio topics rather than audio labels.

[Ajani]

This is why I refrain from the "audiophile" label. A lot of people try to lay claim to the label based on their preferences and their biases. Anyone who doesn't follow a narrow definition of orthodoxy doesn't qualify as an audiophile. I mean if the definition of an audiophile is limited to two-channel, then that would disqualify anyone who sets foot into the multichannel sphere. That's patently absurd.

So, yes I am into good sound reproduction, and I am into audio equipment. But, I'm not going to get into a semantic exercise with someone who wants to argue that my preferences and habits automatically disqualify me from getting anointed with the audiophile label. That's why I don't lay claim to it, and prefer to discuss audio topics rather than audio labels.

Well said

[Raj J]

Hey Ajani,

What kind of system do you have?

I never seemed to get exactly what you've got. Would be interesting to know since most of the others have listed theirs in bold. would be nice to learn something new and compare notes.

Are you using a tube pre or solid state? What amps are you using? Do you prefer tubes over SS? and what source are you using? I bet it must be some classic turn table hence the reason why you have a deep passion for music...

What do you think about the DHLabs cables & interconnects vs. the Nordost range?
Cheers,
RJ

[Ajani]

Hey Ajani,

What kind of system do you have?

I never seemed to get exactly what you've got. Would be interesting to know since most of the others have listed theirs in bold. would be nice to learn something new and compare notes.

Are you using a tube pre or solid state? What amps are you using? Do you prefer tubes over SS? and what source are you using? I bet it must be some classic turn table hence the reason why you have a deep passion for music...

What do you think about the DHLabs cables & interconnects vs. the Nordost range?
Cheers,
RJ

The system I currently use is in my Signature: a computer based headphone system... I have some other gear lying around, but since I don't use any of it, I don't list it...

I'm not a TT guy as Vinyl is hard to source locally, so no point catching that bug + I truly enjoy the convenience of music servers for accessing and finding new music...

Also, I have very little interest in cables... I currently have an assortment of Audioquest and Anti-Cables, but in the future I'm likely to replace them all with simple Blue Jeans Cable...

[JoeE SP9]

Hey Ajani,

What kind of system do you have?

I never seemed to get exactly what you've got. Would be interesting to know since most of the others have listed theirs in bold. would be nice to learn something new and compare notes.

Are you using a tube pre or solid state? What amps are you using? Do you prefer tubes over SS? and what source are you using? I bet it must be some classic turn table hence the reason why you have a deep passion for music...

What do you think about the DHLabs cables & interconnects vs. the Nordost range?
Cheers,
RJ

I use DH Labs Q-10 Signature speaker cable and a mix of Revelation and Air Matrix IC's. The IC's are all Revelation except for the 6 meter long Air Matrix IC's that connect my preamp to my electronic crossover and power amps. The crossover is between my speakers and the amps are next to or behind each speaker. I cut a six foot pair of the Q-10 in half, added some Kimber postmaster spades and have 2 pair of 3 footers now.

IMO Nordost products are way overpriced. They perform extremely well and look good but I believe the cost should be about one quarter what they charge. Cables (IMO) are generally the most overpriced products I've ever seen or heard of. Nordost is no different than most cable manufacturers. Charging as much for a pair of speaker cables as a very good amplifier is something I don't understand. Materials and labor costs can't possibly be that high.

To a person with my budget (I'm retired) DH Labs offers a very good product at a very (IMO) reasonable price. I prefer the sound of Silver plated Copper and all DH wires and cables are just that.

I switched from Kimber TC-8 and Silver Streak to the DH Labs stuff. I had a mild RF problem caused by a CB'r with a illegal linear amp. The Silver Streak being unshielded was sometimes prone to RFI. Fortunately a big blizzard with 60+MPH winds blew down the offending CB antenna a couple of years ago. I had already started replacing the Silver Streak so I just continued. I was able to sell all the Kimber stuff to a couple of buddies.

I highly recommend DH Labs products. It's true "high end" wire and cable at mid-fi prices. It also looks really good.

[Raj J]

Hi there,

Yes, I agree with those out there using music servers or digital devices - I can cleary see that this is the way the audio world is heading. Even Bryston has put out an all digital device with capability to accept USB and other digital inputs for play back, this could then be hooked up directly to the preamp.

My trusted dealer buddy is trying to steer me away from CD players claiming that these things are in the past now, and wants for me to invest in a highend DAC and go for one of those Mac books or HP music servers... I am still not yet fully convinced about the overall sound quality (although quite natural) but then again not so natural as vinyl...

Anyway, I stopped my quest for the ideal CD player, because in Australia they are an absolute rip off! Any highend CD player over here would cost well over 10 grand. Turn Tables on the other hand are not that expensive, I came across a few Rega models starting from the P3 to the P9, price was in the range of $1300 to $5000 including the cartridge & phono stage. now that's an investment! The music stores I regularly visit also have plenty of vinyl and keep adding new labels / albums all the time, hence I don't see this diminishing any time soon.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Ajani, and the rest of the team. Enjoy your music!
Cheers, RJ

[E-Stat]

am I going to stick with two channel forever, or can I have a quality system that is ready to play any and every format whether 2.0 to 7.1?

It is the music labels in charge of that question. The vast majority of music released today remains in stereo. When do you think that will ever change?

rw

[Ajani]

Hi there,

Yes, I agree with those out there using music servers or digital devices - I can cleary see that this is the way the audio world is heading. Even Bryston has put out an all digital device with capability to accept USB and other digital inputs for play back, this could then be hooked up directly to the preamp.

My trusted dealer buddy is trying to steer me away from CD players claiming that these things are in the past now, and wants for me to invest in a highend DAC and go for one of those Mac books or HP music servers... I am still not yet fully convinced about the overall sound quality (although quite natural) but then again not so natural as vinyl...

Anyway, I stopped my quest for the ideal CD player, because in Australia they are an absolute rip off! Any highend CD player over here would cost well over 10 grand. Turn Tables on the other hand are not that expensive, I came across a few Rega models starting from the P3 to the P9, price was in the range of $1300 to $5000 including the cartridge & phono stage. now that's an investment! The music stores I regularly visit also have plenty of vinyl and keep adding new labels / albums all the time, hence I don't see this diminishing any time soon.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Ajani, and the rest of the team. Enjoy your music!
Cheers, RJ

The sound quality debate of music server versus CD is not likely to be resolved anytime soon (if ever) as there are persons who claim music servers are clearly superior to CD, others who claim CDs are better and some (like me) who have yet to notice a difference between the two...

[E-Stat]

I am still not yet fully convinced about the overall sound quality (although quite natural) but then again not so natural as vinyl...

How do you think all digital masters are created, stored and played - before they go to the CD replicators?

rw