What would make HiFi Reviews (more) useful?

[E-Stat]

That's a good clarification... I actually had to read your point twice for it to really sink in

I think it is a significant difference. For anyone who has extended experience with live, unamplified music, one can reliably identify differences in the signal chain.

I never read their reviews, but I can imagine how worthless it would be to try and buy a stereo based on just the test measurements ... but between products of different prices, the comparison gets skewered...

Certainly. Reviews are only designed to assist you in narrowing down the choices for you to audition. While I have not had (and will likely never have) the budget for the very best, I have found it extremely useful to understand what is possible for evaluating the components that I buy for myself. I bought my GamuT CD-1 nine years ago after hearing it directly compared with the magnificent $57k Burmester 969/970 transport/DAC combination on a finely tuned quarter of a million dollar system. Was the Burmester system better? You betcha! While I was pulling for the little guy since I was in the market, it beat the GamuT at both frequency extremes and offered better overall resolution. Were the differences, however, worth the 20x multiplier? Not to me!

As I have always been counseled by my mentors, you must make the choices for yourself based upon your priorities and budget. With sources, I have rarely disagreed with the assessments of my reviewer friends. On the other hand, I have frequently differed in my choice of speaker.

rw

[Ajani]

Ajani

It depends on what is considered small. Audio Note is not a good example really because they're not small. They only do 5% of their business in North America. They have over 700 products and many of them are not even listed on the website. When I went to CES I asked peter why he doesn't make a Tuner. He said "we make tuners" - I said "then why is it not on the website?" he replied "then people would want them and we'd have to build them." They can't keep up with their order book as it is.

I understand the argument you're making that when we review stuff that is hard to find that it doesn't help the average audiophile living in smaller towns that don't have access to such gear - but it "should" be about the better gear out there not how many retail outlets carry it. All of the writers at Dagogo heard the stuff in the United States and I am in Canada. There are AN dealers in BC, Alberta and Ontario (though only Soundhounds carries enough stock to show it decently) - and even they can't get stock.

Reviews can actually do a disservice to some makers because good reviews can generate a lot of interest and possibly a lot of sales. But if you are small company and demand heavily outstrips supply or the ability to supply then companies tend to move into larger buildings and hire more people. This put Reference 3a out of business when they were just called 3a. They moved Daniel Dehay lost the ability to oversee large production and the quality suffered heavily putting them under. The second time around he made sure to do it right under the Reference 3a name.

The problem too is that reviewers don't know what is available in your town. PMC is pretty big here but may not be in your city. Paradigm is big in North American and practically non existent in Europe. Audio Note is very big in Russia, Poland, Sweden, Croatia, Vietnam, Denmark, Britain, etc.

I believe there are only 10 dealers in the U.S. but one of the biggest and best is Audiofederation who are also the distributors.

On to a more general note - review sites can be valuable to put stuff off the radar on the radar. Anyone can go and audition a B&W - big deal - why does anyone need a review to tell you what you heard for yourself. I see the review being able to tell you about a Trenner and Freidl loudspeaker company making a speaker that can stand with anything. Until CES I had never heard of them before even though they've been around quite awhile in Europe making highly regarded products.

Heck Sugden is hard enough for most people to find and audition and they've been around for over 40 years.

Reviewers are also in it partially for themselves. I want to spend months with stuff I like and would consider buying - I don't want to spend time with the B&W 705 which I think is obscenely overrated - just because every town is selling it.

I think though that Dagogo and other sites review mainstream stuff as well. Generally though I find the mainstream stuff is a significant step down across the board from the smaller makers who have passion and often cost no concern approaches over choosing a price point and then making something to fit it.

Audio Note is small in North America (since North America only accounts for 5% of AN Sales and the North American dealers can't even get enough stock to satisfy demand)... All the Dagogo reviewers (who reviewed AN gear) are in North America, so they fall into my example of reviewing smaller, exotic fare...

As to the question of mainstream stuff being a step down: maybe, but the most compelling review I read on Dagogo for the AN-E, was from a reviewer (can't remember the name) who owned (at least at the time of the review) a pair of Revel Performa F30 speakers... The fact that he had a pair of mainstream speakers (that I know and like) gave me a reference for his opinion... And though, he clearly preferred the AN-E to his reference speakers, he didn't bash the Revels in the comparison... That review really made me want to hear some AN speakers (too bad the lack of supply and dealers, means that's unlikely to happen anytime soon, and if I want to purchase a pair then I'm really in trouble)...

[Ajani]

RGA, the popularity malaise that you describe is exactly what Klaus at Odyssey told me when he was building my Candela and I complained to him about the website being out of date. He as only two other techs on staff and can't keep up with demand, not to mention keeping the website up to date (although he has found someone to do it now). He wishes that he had more time to grow the business side of Odyssey, but he's too busy building the gear. Outsourcing really isn't an option for him since that would increase costs and affect QC. He's actually retracted from previous outsourcing deals (The Nightingale and Circe speakers) exactly for those reasons.

To answer your other point, maybe there ought to be a magazine (or site) that doesn't claim to be a reviewing rag, but instead just showcases new gear with specs and pics. I know there are some mags that sorta do that, but I was thinking about one that would be a little more impartial and less advertising-driven. Also, if there is one thing that would make magazines like Stereophile more appealing is more photos, particularly of the back-sides of gear.

I also think that online sites are a useful source for reviews in general because it's a great place to aggregate many opinions together. Granted, this tends to favor the products with more distribution, but over time, I think the better products will eventually emerge. This site (Audio Review) is a good place, but I do wish it was more complete. It actually surprises me how few of us who contribute posts on the forums almost daily actually also write reviews. Maybe more incentives might help?

I feel sorry for Klaus now, far as I know he's gone into hiding since The Absolute Sound raved about the Khartago Amp... poor guy has orders just piling up....

Which is why I question how useful it is for the Major Mags to review more exotic fare... Does it do anything but frustrate consumers and overload small manufacturers?

[Ajani]

Certainly. Reviews are only designed to assist you in narrowing down the choices for you to audition. While I have not had (and will likely never have) the budget for the very best, I have found it extremely useful to understand what is possible for evaluating the components that I buy for myself. I bought my GamuT CD-1 nine years ago after hearing it directly compared with the magnificent $57k Burmester 969/970 transport/DAC combination on a finely tuned quarter of a million dollar system. Was the Burmester system better? You betcha! While I was pulling for the little guy since I was in the market, it beat the GamuT at both frequency extremes and offered better overall resolution. Were the differences, however, worth the 20x multiplier? Not to me!

As I have always been counseled by my mentors, you must make the choices for yourself based upon your priorities and budget. With sources, I have rarely disagreed with the assessments of my reviewer friends. On the other hand, I have frequently differed in my choice of speaker.

rw

I've learned that almost everyone in this hobby believes in diminishing returns, but we all disagree on where it starts.... I also believe that our opinion of where diminishing returns starts, varies greatly as our disposable income increases (or decreases)... So I suspect that if you win the lottery and become a multi-millionaire, then that Burmester system may well be worth 20x multiplier....

[E-Stat]

So I suspect that if you win the lottery and become a multi-millionaire, then that Burmester system may well be worth 20x multiplier....

That was nine years ago. Today, I've heard an EMM Labs combo that sounds better still and lists for far less - if not as exotically housed. Call it $25k for better results.

rw

[RGA]

Ajani

Yes your point about Audio Note makes sense - but I think it becomes an issue of philosophy and Peter simply will not cave into sacrificing that philosophy for immediate sales. My dealer, Soundhounds, has said that Audio Note should make far less products so that they're builders are not overwhelmed with many different designs. If you sell 4 amps and 3 cd players and 3 loudspeakers then it is far easier to manufacturer and keep costs down because you don't have to support so many different parts. Audio Note has a ridiculous number of tubes to stock let alone resisters and caps and transformers. Soundhounds has a point because with orders for so many products backlogs begin. I waited 10 months for my turntable because they have one guy (Mario) who builds the whole thing from scratch among other duties. If you are a dealer - this is a frustrating company to sell.

For instance if you walk into a dealer carrying "Typical" products and you audition XYZ product and you say right I want to buy it. You can usually take it home then and there. The dealer usually has several of them in stock or can get one in a week - maybe two. But if you are a dealer and you spend time letting people listen to a set of AN E speakers and the customer loves it and says he wants one - the dealer then has to say - gee sorry but you'll have to wait 8 months. You have to be darn well dedicated to the line and TRUST that you can convince customers to part with their money up front and have them wait 8 months. And then that date goes by and they're still not in. The customer will be phoning and bugging you about when the speaker will be ready. It's just no a hassle businesses really want to get into.

Even the owner of Soundhounds shrugs and says it's very frustrating but then again it's also the best stuff he sells. They lend the customers several of the demo products to fill the wait. A set of AN J's has been shipped all over B.C. as people wait for the AN E's. But then the AN J is in a home and not being sold - so that too is a kind of cost. They had to buy that AN J after all and while it's in a home it is not in the store being demoed.

In my case Audio Note was just pure luck. I happened to move to Vancouver Island to go to University and Soundhounds happens to be on the island. There are several dealers in California and on the East Coast and Colorado being the biggest and outside of that you're pretty much out of luck.

So I agree that AN is small and exotic fare if you compare them to mainstream but I guess it's difficult for me to really be able to answer your issue. There is one good audio dealership on Vancouver island - that dealer carries Audio Note. So in my particular corner of the world it is just as common as B&W, Magnepan or Bryston.

There's no doubt there's an element of esoteric with smaller companies - anytime you get into SET makers the market of dealers gets real small.

That is why I have been trying to find other alternates that I like a whole lot - even if I like them a bit less - There are still many companies I really like - so in your town there may not be Audio Note but there might be Teresonic - or Acapella, or Acoustic Zen, King Sound, or Silbatone, or Sonist, or Harbeth, Tannoy, Studio Electric or Gallo etc.

All of the above are worth listening to but only one may be in a given person's city and in most cases they are 2-3 men operations. That said most Audio Note guys are pretty passionate about it. It's a well known group and you can usually find an owner who will let you listen. Sending an e-mail to Peter or Dave cope or the Audio Federation to find the nearest owner to you to let you audition it is not a bad way to do things. In fact the advantage is that is a real home not a dealer trying to sell it.

Usually they are complete systems which IMO is the only way to hear them. That is the designer's intent and that is how they work best. Hear a system like this http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/...views_01.shtml for awhile and it's hard to stay objective to be perfectly honest. Granted these are stupid prices but the sound justifies the prices. And let's face it if you can afford those prices you can afford a flight to go audition them.

Even the big Wes Philips of Stereophile had a tough time being objective. I get dumped on all the time because I am perceived as not being objective but Wes Philips said after CES that Audio Note was the best sound he ever heard and that "everything else" at CES was "just noise." Even for me that is going over the top. But I have read a lot of show reports over the last five years and an awful lot of them say very similar things.

[Ajani]

Ajani

Yes your point about Audio Note makes sense - but I think it becomes an issue of philosophy and Peter simply will not cave into sacrificing that philosophy for immediate sales. My dealer, Soundhounds, has said that Audio Note should make far less products so that they're builders are not overwhelmed with many different designs. If you sell 4 amps and 3 cd players and 3 loudspeakers then it is far easier to manufacturer and keep costs down because you don't have to support so many different parts. Audio Note has a ridiculous number of tubes to stock let alone resisters and caps and transformers. Soundhounds has a point because with orders for so many products backlogs begin. I waited 10 months for my turntable because they have one guy (Mario) who builds the whole thing from scratch among other duties. If you are a dealer - this is a frustrating company to sell.

For instance if you walk into a dealer carrying "Typical" products and you audition XYZ product and you say right I want to buy it. You can usually take it home then and there. The dealer usually has several of them in stock or can get one in a week - maybe two. But if you are a dealer and you spend time letting people listen to a set of AN E speakers and the customer loves it and says he wants one - the dealer then has to say - gee sorry but you'll have to wait 8 months. You have to be darn well dedicated to the line and TRUST that you can convince customers to part with their money up front and have them wait 8 months. And then that date goes by and they're still not in. The customer will be phoning and bugging you about when the speaker will be ready. It's just no a hassle businesses really want to get into.

Even the owner of Soundhounds shrugs and says it's very frustrating but then again it's also the best stuff he sells. They lend the customers several of the demo products to fill the wait. A set of AN J's has been shipped all over B.C. as people wait for the AN E's. But then the AN J is in a home and not being sold - so that too is a kind of cost. They had to buy that AN J after all and while it's in a home it is not in the store being demoed.

In my case Audio Note was just pure luck. I happened to move to Vancouver Island to go to University and Soundhounds happens to be on the island. There are several dealers in California and on the East Coast and Colorado being the biggest and outside of that you're pretty much out of luck.

So I agree that AN is small and exotic fare if you compare them to mainstream but I guess it's difficult for me to really be able to answer your issue. There is one good audio dealership on Vancouver island - that dealer carries Audio Note. So in my particular corner of the world it is just as common as B&W, Magnepan or Bryston.

There's no doubt there's an element of esoteric with smaller companies - anytime you get into SET makers the market of dealers gets real small.

That is why I have been trying to find other alternates that I like a whole lot - even if I like them a bit less - There are still many companies I really like - so in your town there may not be Audio Note but there might be Teresonic - or Acapella, or Acoustic Zen, King Sound, or Silbatone, or Sonist, or Harbeth, Tannoy, Studio Electric or Gallo etc.

All of the above are worth listening to but only one may be in a given person's city and in most cases they are 2-3 men operations. That said most Audio Note guys are pretty passionate about it. It's a well known group and you can usually find an owner who will let you listen. Sending an e-mail to Peter or Dave cope or the Audio Federation to find the nearest owner to you to let you audition it is not a bad way to do things. In fact the advantage is that is a real home not a dealer trying to sell it.

Usually they are complete systems which IMO is the only way to hear them. That is the designer's intent and that is how they work best. Hear a system like this http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/...views_01.shtml for awhile and it's hard to stay objective to be perfectly honest. Granted these are stupid prices but the sound justifies the prices. And let's face it if you can afford those prices you can afford a flight to go audition them.

Even the big Wes Philips of Stereophile had a tough time being objective. I get dumped on all the time because I am perceived as not being objective but Wes Philips said after CES that Audio Note was the best sound he ever heard and that "everything else" at CES was "just noise." Even for me that is going over the top. But I have read a lot of show reports over the last five years and an awful lot of them say very similar things.

I think Audio Note either needs to cut back on the number of products, like Soundhounds suggests OR hire and train some new staff... They don't need to move production to China, just hire and train some more skilled workers... They have more than enough demand to support bringing in skilled workers.... 8 Months is a ridiculous waiting period for a HiFi product....

There's nothing wrong with being totally in love with a brand, but comments like the one from Wes Philips hurt a reviewer's credibility.... I've heard lots of HiFi that did nothing for me, but I wouldn't call any of it noise...

[RGA]

Ajani

The thing with credibility is this - is it an "honest" portrayal of the experience. The job of a reviewer is to tell you how he feels - even if it risks people thinking he went over the top. If I tell you Bose is complete and utter junk compared to Quad 57 - even people who have never heard Quad or the Bose - they will say "yeah that seems reasonable" because Bose as a reputation and Quad has a reputation.

To me there is a clear league of products to my ear that some will agree with and some won't. I think the only difference between someone calling a Bose "noise" compared to a Quad and calling established high end brands "noise" compared to an Audio Note system is also a matter of perception.

I have said it many times that it boils down to experience. Listening to a good car stereo is WAY better than listening to those $14.99 clock radios. Listening to an iPod with the stock headphones versus listening through AKG is a revelation. Listening to Klipsch Reference over Bose is a big step up and so on and so forth.

But for whatever reason people believe it all stops once they buy from a boutique. After all they carry the best right? Well not really because if they carried the best they would carry Audio Note, Marten, Trenner and Freidl, Acapella, King Sound, Tannoy Prestige, Cary, Einstein, Shindo, and several others. But they don't - they carry big easy to sell companies, B&W, Paradigm PSB, Rotel, Naim etc that while they are a step up over Bose and Polk and Denon receivers they're just not very good compared to these other makers IMO. Now that is no slight on them - they ALSO are not charging at those price levels so I would not place the expectation on them.

Wes went way over the top I suspect because it was his first time auditioning it - and AN does have the ability to have that effect on people - for heaven sake look at me. I've been on about them for nearly a decade. And I still go in and listen to AN E's in corners and grin in disbelief or reduced to tears by the music. What else should a reviewer do other than to tell the reader their gut reaction to what they hear?

That may insult a lot of other companies - to which I say - do a better job. The review should be there for the readers not the manufacturers. Like the Stereophile founder noted - there should not be 100 class A products there should be a handful - one handful at most of "bests".

Our entire society has become this PC world where everyone should be an equal - treated as an equal sure but no not everyone or everything is an equal. Sorry Johnny but if you don't do your homework and you don't study and you can't spell your name you are not "EQUAL" in ability to Albert Einstein, you should not get a pass to the next grade (they do because it might hurt their self esteem).

Now I am getting more diplomatic as I age probably because I am a teacher and I do have to be EXTREMELY diplomatic in my profession (though it doesn't serve the students or their parents in the end because while we're falling all over ourselves to refrain from offending anyone - the kid doesn't get early intervention to get them on the right track because we're not telling them - "You're kid is a bully and probably a sociopath and seems a little "thick" and you should get him a shrink and a tutor." - No it is " Little Johnny is overly active in the classroom and is excited easily and has difficulty focusing on tasks. That is all lala language that doesn't seem so bad - heaven forbid we distress the parents. Little Johnny turns into a drug dealer by grade 9 and drops out because he's as thick as a bucket of bricks because no one forced him to do the work in grade 5, 6, or 7.

The Bryston 3B is miles and miles better than my old Pioneer Elite Receiver - and I have said so many times. No one has ever complained about that remark. But if I say that the GakuON is miles and miles better than the Bryston 3b - oh now I am shill, not objective, a nut, or whatever. Which is odd because in virtually every case - no one has heard the GakuOn. I say well gee you agree with my assessment that the Bryston is WAY better than the Elite and I am correct but if I say the GakuOn is WAY better than the Bryston I must now suddenly not be able to hear.

Wes' remarks don't bother me very much because I have auditioned a very similar system this year at CES and after wading through more than 70 rooms (many I did not cover in my show report at all because they were frankly terrible), the AN system can do certain things than very little else approaches. I think Wes took a HUGE risk making those remarks because of the fact that many products he has reviewed favorably over the years takes a bit of a hit and many manufacturers could be upset. Instead of getting "credit" for coming out with a risky "truthful" commentary - he is blasted for telling people that in fact there is a league - and in fact some stuff truly rises above a lot of other stuff and is a LOT better than other stuff such that the other stuff is unlistenable.

Fremer - although I disagree with his taste - in fact did the same thing with Musical Fidelity and raved about it and called SET guys kind of out to lunch. That group would include me. But I respect the fact that Fremer truly believes in his view - he feels that the MF amps rise above the rest and that SETs are stone age junk. He's alienating a lot of tube fans and again I think Fremer is completely wrong - but I also believe that he believes what he says and he's certainly not being PC. Good for him. Recently he gave a negative review to a popular Bryston amp - while recommending a similar priced unit from a competing maker (Parasound I think). Everyone wants negative reviews - but the problem is when they come out it can offend owners and Bryston has a LOT of owners.

The audio review industry is not objective - it is subjective - it is people listening to a product and then deciding if it is portraying the music in a way that is truthful to either the disc or the live event or both. But wow that is hardly absolute science. If one thing sounds like a 10 and everything else sounds like a 4 then the thing that sounds like a 10 should not be stomped down to a 6 and the 4 brought up to a 6 to make for a nice touchy feely everything is good and it's all a matter of taste.

Of course if all the magazines don't do this then the High end will be reduced to about 8 companies who are TRULY deserving of being called the High End. This goes back to Stereophile's founder. He had 1 amp in class A - that is the best - that is "high end" everything not in class A is a step down - and is not the best or high end (or not at the top end of the high end). Our PC nature has turned everything into equals which does nothing but a disservice to everyone who then misses out on what truly is the best stuff out there. The 10 will be drowned out in the sea of watering down everything.

When Wes goes on a limb and made those comments - does anyone say - wow I have to make sure I audition something from them? Nope! It's all about how he's not objective. No. Could it be that indeed it really is just THAT much better than everything else he heard it at the show? No one stops to consider that he truly may have felt that everything else sounded like rubbish in comparison. Is that possibility too much for the fragility of the audiophile egos out there? Is it possible that like Holt this for him was the ONE class A deserved room and way above the rest.?

Maybe he just didn't here some of the better competitors?

[Ajani]

Ajani

The thing with credibility is this - is it an "honest" portrayal of the experience. The job of a reviewer is to tell you how he feels - even if it risks people thinking he went over the top. If I tell you Bose is complete and utter junk compared to Quad 57 - even people who have never heard Quad or the Bose - they will say "yeah that seems reasonable" because Bose as a reputation and Quad has a reputation.

To me there is a clear league of products to my ear that some will agree with and some won't. I think the only difference between someone calling a Bose "noise" compared to a Quad and calling established high end brands "noise" compared to an Audio Note system is also a matter of perception.

I have said it many times that it boils down to experience. Listening to a good car stereo is WAY better than listening to those $14.99 clock radios. Listening to an iPod with the stock headphones versus listening through AKG is a revelation. Listening to Klipsch Reference over Bose is a big step up and so on and so forth.

But for whatever reason people believe it all stops once they buy from a boutique. After all they carry the best right? Well not really because if they carried the best they would carry Audio Note, Marten, Trenner and Freidl, Acapella, King Sound, Tannoy Prestige, Cary, Einstein, Shindo, and several others. But they don't - they carry big easy to sell companies, B&W, Paradigm PSB, Rotel, Naim etc that while they are a step up over Bose and Polk and Denon receivers they're just not very good compared to these other makers IMO. Now that is no slight on them - they ALSO are not charging at those price levels so I would not place the expectation on them.

Wes went way over the top I suspect because it was his first time auditioning it - and AN does have the ability to have that effect on people - for heaven sake look at me. I've been on about them for nearly a decade. And I still go in and listen to AN E's in corners and grin in disbelief or reduced to tears by the music. What else should a reviewer do other than to tell the reader their gut reaction to what they hear?

That may insult a lot of other companies - to which I say - do a better job. The review should be there for the readers not the manufacturers. Like the Stereophile founder noted - there should not be 100 class A products there should be a handful - one handful at most of "bests".

Our entire society has become this PC world where everyone should be an equal - treated as an equal sure but no not everyone or everything is an equal. Sorry Johnny but if you don't do your homework and you don't study and you can't spell your name you are not "EQUAL" in ability to Albert Einstein, you should not get a pass to the next grade (they do because it might hurt their self esteem).

Now I am getting more diplomatic as I age probably because I am a teacher and I do have to be EXTREMELY diplomatic in my profession (though it doesn't serve the students or their parents in the end because while we're falling all over ourselves to refrain from offending anyone - the kid doesn't get early intervention to get them on the right track because we're not telling them - "You're kid is a bully and probably a sociopath and seems a little "thick" and you should get him a shrink and a tutor." - No it is " Little Johnny is overly active in the classroom and is excited easily and has difficulty focusing on tasks. That is all lala language that doesn't seem so bad - heaven forbid we distress the parents. Little Johnny turns into a drug dealer by grade 9 and drops out because he's as thick as a bucket of bricks because no one forced him to do the work in grade 5, 6, or 7.

The Bryston 3B is miles and miles better than my old Pioneer Elite Receiver - and I have said so many times. No one has ever complained about that remark. But if I say that the GakuON is miles and miles better than the Bryston 3b - oh now I am shill, not objective, a nut, or whatever. Which is odd because in virtually every case - no one has heard the GakuOn. I say well gee you agree with my assessment that the Bryston is WAY better than the Elite and I am correct but if I say the GakuOn is WAY better than the Bryston I must now suddenly not be able to hear.

Wes' remarks don't bother me very much because I have auditioned a very similar system this year at CES and after wading through more than 70 rooms (many I did not cover in my show report at all because they were frankly terrible), the AN system can do certain things than very little else approaches. I think Wes took a HUGE risk making those remarks because of the fact that many products he has reviewed favorably over the years takes a bit of a hit and many manufacturers could be upset. Instead of getting "credit" for coming out with a risky "truthful" commentary - he is blasted for telling people that in fact there is a league - and in fact some stuff truly rises above a lot of other stuff and is a LOT better than other stuff such that the other stuff is unlistenable.

Fremer - although I disagree with his taste - in fact did the same thing with Musical Fidelity and raved about it and called SET guys kind of out to lunch. That group would include me. But I respect the fact that Fremer truly believes in his view - he feels that the MF amps rise above the rest and that SETs are stone age junk. He's alienating a lot of tube fans and again I think Fremer is completely wrong - but I also believe that he believes what he says and he's certainly not being PC. Good for him. Recently he gave a negative review to a popular Bryston amp - while recommending a similar priced unit from a competing maker (Parasound I think). Everyone wants negative reviews - but the problem is when they come out it can offend owners and Bryston has a LOT of owners.

The audio review industry is not objective - it is subjective - it is people listening to a product and then deciding if it is portraying the music in a way that is truthful to either the disc or the live event or both. But wow that is hardly absolute science. If one thing sounds like a 10 and everything else sounds like a 4 then the thing that sounds like a 10 should not be stomped down to a 6 and the 4 brought up to a 6 to make for a nice touchy feely everything is good and it's all a matter of taste.

Of course if all the magazines don't do this then the High end will be reduced to about 8 companies who are TRULY deserving of being called the High End. This goes back to Stereophile's founder. He had 1 amp in class A - that is the best - that is "high end" everything not in class A is a step down - and is not the best or high end (or not at the top end of the high end). Our PC nature has turned everything into equals which does nothing but a disservice to everyone who then misses out on what truly is the best stuff out there. The 10 will be drowned out in the sea of watering down everything.

When Wes goes on a limb and made those comments - does anyone say - wow I have to make sure I audition something from them? Nope! It's all about how he's not objective. No. Could it be that indeed it really is just THAT much better than everything else he heard it at the show? No one stops to consider that he truly may have felt that everything else sounded like rubbish in comparison. Is that possibility too much for the fragility of the audiophile egos out there? Is it possible that like Holt this for him was the ONE class A deserved room and way above the rest.?

Maybe he just didn't here some of the better competitors?

I'm not suggesting that reviewers should claim that everything sounds fine or pretend that they like everything... Excessive PC is a waste of time to readers....

My issue is that extreme positions are just as worthless as being too Politically Correct...

When a reviewer gets a new toy in for review and suddenly raves that it is the greatest he's ever heard and beats everything up to 3x its price, that is generally crap that doesn't hold up against future reviews from that reviewer (and sometimes the very next review finds a new greatest product)...

I find the position that certain products make everything else sound like junk to be mere HiFi snobbery.... For all the talk, I don't regard JBL, Denon, Yamaha, Klipsch or even Bose to be junk.... I'm one of those persons who has not gone into the extreme position of "I can't listen to music unless it is played on XX quality system".... Despite having a Benchmark DAC 1/ AKG K701 Headphone setup, I can still enjoy music played through an iPod with the stock headphones (and I don't regard it as junk)....

You can honestly state that you preferred one product to another (and gives reasons) without resorting to nonsense like "everything else is just noise"... I don't believe for a second that Wes thinks his reference system and all the stuff he raved about before is noise... Yes, they may all be inferior, in his opinion, to the AN setup he heard, but that doesn't make them noise....

We don't need to pretend that all HiFi is equal... but the extreme positions are generally BS.... Just give detail descriptions of the sound of a particular product, what you think its strengths and weaknesses are... You can tell us whether or not you liked it or would use it in your system...

I owned NAD gear previously and I found it to be too smooth, which I found boring in the long run... I switched to Rotel and it injected excitement into my system and made me want to listen to music again... Now I could shorten that to: "NAD sounds like $#!+", but then that's a worthless comment, as it conveys nothing useful to a reader... At least my description earlier lets you know why I didn't like the NAD, so you can make your own decision...

[RGA]

Ajani

Yes I see what you are saying in a certain sense but to me it boils down to what is being compared. I like the B&W 604 more than I like the similarly priced Paradigm 100V3. And I could write a review outlining why I like the 604 more but at the end of the day neither really stands out much from the other one. They're arguably lateral moves. I like the Rote RA-01 considerably more than the Nad Bee of the same money - but even here the RA-01 is not exactly the last word of SS.

I could compare Bryston power amps to Rotel to MF to Sim Audio and I could even rank them in order of preference but even here - the differences just are not very big. They're made big by the audio press but they really are not. Not in my view to justify a doubling or tripling the price of one over the other. The differences just are not very big. In a sense they're big differences because people have not heard components that "really are" leaps ahead.

Price has nothing to do with it - it boils down to design - the AN E or the King Sound Prince II under $8k have a certain design approach that little else regardless of price has. I liked both of them more than Avalon loudspeakers at $47,000 for example. So I would be in the camp saying that the Prince II and AN E/Spe HE is preferable to speakers at 5+ times the price.

Consider the speaker example. Most of the floorstanding speakers in the $1k - 3k price range that are designed similarly - 3-4 6 inch woofers with a metal tweeter in a slim deep box following the Floyd Toole approach sound very much alike. A person then auditions a Magnepan or Martin Logan panel - and raves - astonishing can't believe how "different" it sounds and brings things to the table that none of those boxes brings. I also think they bring a whole new set of weaknesses that those boxes don't possess; nevertheless, they sound "wildly" different and if you buy into them then they sound "wildly better.

I am not talking about what one can enjoy - I have a set of AKG 26p headphones and an iPod - I enjoy it. I have a stock car stereo - I enjoy listening to music in my car. That's a different issue. For Wes it was comparing expensive stuff to expensive stuff and claiming that a particular system rose above the best. The AKG 26p is a very nice headphone but the top AKG and Stax and Sennheisers are vastly better. The over the top remarks depend on how serious one takes music reproduction - or perhaps how anal one is about it.

[Ajani]

Ajani

Yes I see what you are saying in a certain sense but to me it boils down to what is being compared. I like the B&W 604 more than I like the similarly priced Paradigm 100V3. And I could write a review outlining why I like the 604 more but at the end of the day neither really stands out much from the other one. They're arguably lateral moves. I like the Rote RA-01 considerably more than the Nad Bee of the same money - but even here the RA-01 is not exactly the last word of SS.

I could compare Bryston power amps to Rotel to MF to Sim Audio and I could even rank them in order of preference but even here - the differences just are not very big. They're made big by the audio press but they really are not. Not in my view to justify a doubling or tripling the price of one over the other. The differences just are not very big. In a sense they're big differences because people have not heard components that "really are" leaps ahead.

Price has nothing to do with it - it boils down to design - the AN E or the King Sound Prince II under $8k have a certain design approach that little else regardless of price has. I liked both of them more than Avalon loudspeakers at $47,000 for example. So I would be in the camp saying that the Prince II and AN E/Spe HE is preferable to speakers at 5+ times the price.

Consider the speaker example. Most of the floorstanding speakers in the $1k - 3k price range that are designed similarly - 3-4 6 inch woofers with a metal tweeter in a slim deep box following the Floyd Toole approach sound very much alike. A person then auditions a Magnepan or Martin Logan panel - and raves - astonishing can't believe how "different" it sounds and brings things to the table that none of those boxes brings. I also think they bring a whole new set of weaknesses that those boxes don't possess; nevertheless, they sound "wildly" different and if you buy into them then they sound "wildly better.

I am not talking about what one can enjoy - I have a set of AKG 26p headphones and an iPod - I enjoy it. I have a stock car stereo - I enjoy listening to music in my car. That's a different issue. For Wes it was comparing expensive stuff to expensive stuff and claiming that a particular system rose above the best. The AKG 26p is a very nice headphone but the top AKG and Stax and Sennheisers are vastly better. The over the top remarks depend on how serious one takes music reproduction - or perhaps how anal one is about it.

You can describe (as you did above) that you don't notice large differences between various SS amps... But the difference between SET and SS is substantial.... Nothing wrong with that (it gives a frame of reference for your opinion)... You can also say that you vastly prefer SET and give your reasons...

If someone prefers the presentation of Panels to Box speakers, there must be reason(s) for the preference... Those reasons can be explained... For example I always hear E-Stat talking about the coherence of full range panels not being matched by multi-driver speakers with advanced crossovers.... From that I can determine how important coherence is to me, versus SPL and bass impact that I will get from box speakers... Just saying that Panels destroy Cone Speakers tells me nothing useful....

A brand that really intrigues me is actually Audio Note - not because a number of reviewers make over the top claims about how magical it is, but based on actual description of the performance:

1) Works with all genres of music, as Peter Q loves to demonstrate at HiFi Shows - That is a major PLUS for me and immediately grabs my attention. I don't want a HiFi setup that is only good with Jazz....

2) Designed to be used in small to medium sized rooms - I like HiFi that I won't have to build a new room in my house to accommodate... How many persons really have dedicated listening rooms that allow you to pull a speaker out 4 or 5 feet from the back wall and still have a comfortable distance to the listening position? Corner loading is more practical for small rooms (a 2nd bedroom for example - as is commonly used as a listening room for many audiophiles)

3) High Sensitivity - So I know I can get whatever volume level I need, regardless of amp power and so I can just concentrate on getting the best sounding amp...

4) Good bass response - I'm not a bass junkie by any stretch, but with a wide range of tastes in music, including rap, rock and classical... I like speakers that will go full range without a sub....

5) The sound is not analytical - I want to listen to the music, rather than get caught up in how the bass is produced or the imaging or PRAT or any such HiFi nonsense (IMO)...

6) The sound is not too smooth (nor too bright) - It doesn't make every genre sound smooth or sweet or relaxed... Not all live music is relaxing and smooth... Clashing Cymbals should be bright and somewhat harsh... A drum sequence should wake you up and grab your attention... I don't want HiFi that is like a glass of warm milk; designed just to put me to bed at nights... But I don't want something that has me on edge all the time.... I want something that will be bright if the recording is bright, smooth if the recording is smooth, etc...

I find that when the AN reviewers (yourself included) speak about these points, it gets my interest... But when I hear that it makes everything else sound like noise, I start to wonder if they've lost touch with reality (which is sad, since they may very well be on to something)...

Even products you don't like, can be described in a way that clearly shows their strengths and weaknesses and who might want to consider buying them... I remember J Gordon Holt's review of the Bose 901, accurately describing the pros (yes there are pros) and cons of the 901... his conclusion made it clear why most 'traditional' audiophiles won't like them, but much of the general public would be impressed...

[RGA]

Well yes that is why I found Wes to be "over the top" and coming from me - that says a lot LOL.

Hyperbole tends to get people into trouble and many have taken issue with me over the years for doing just that. Which is why I have tried to tone that down and provide examples of what It is that makes something superior to something else.

And I have also tried to point out where the AN E speaker is beaten. Nothing is perfect after all. I have compared the AN E directly to the Quad 2905 and what is interesting for me is that it has everything I like about what the panels offer up. The AN drivers do not act like "pistons" like typical cone speakers - they use the cabinet and the drivers act more as resonators than typical drivers - which is why they have very little cone movement - and they're extremely light - which is why they possess lightning fast transients and sound just as open and holographic as an electrostatic. But then they also have the horn dynamics speed and live sensation that panels do not possess that the better horns possess.

And then add some actual bass response and use the room to your advantage not a detriment which is why they sound uniform from room to room. You can have an empty room like at shows or a heavily carpeted room with tons of "stuff" in it - or a room with lots of glass and hardwoods - so long as there are corners you're essentially get the sound from the front wall and the speakers vanish.

I think Wes should simply have said - "This was the best sound I heard at CES because (fill in the blanks)" and thus gives credit to the room he felt was best without insulting everything else at the show. Even if he felt Audio Note room was a 10 and everything else was a 1 the fact is the room he auditioned was something like a half million dollars and being objective - frankly it SHOULD bloody well sound good at that price - it SHOULD be better than a Mystere running a Gallo for a system cost that is less than the AN cables.

I don't believe in berating good value for the sane budget because something 100 times the price is better. I don't think that was Wes' intention but I can see how it could come across like that.

[poppachubby]

I understand the value of a small business model in terms of profitablility. If the orders are there, and AN has been around for years, why not grow the business?

If he's worried about falling demand, that's nuts. The deman will be inherent with the value. Us little fish will spend a lifetime drooling, and the big fish will certainly want to join the club of "bigtime" audio.

Linn has a state of the art factory in Scotland. They employ the best tool/die and machinists in the world, literally. My point is that it can be done, without sacrificing quality.

I'm sure the owner has all kinds of eccentric ideas about audio, but when it comes to business, it would appear he's missing out. If somebody is willing to spend a megabuck on an AN tuner, build the damn thing and take his money!!!

[Ajani]

I understand the value of a small business model in terms of profitablility. If the orders are there, and AN has been around for years, why not grow the business?

If he's worried about falling demand, that's nuts. The deman will be inherent with the value. Us little fish will spend a lifetime drooling, and the big fish will certainly want to join the club of "bigtime" audio.

Linn has a state of the art factory in Scotland. They employ the best tool/die and machinists in the world, literally. My point is that it can be done, without sacrificing quality.

I'm sure the owner has all kinds of eccentric ideas about audio, but when it comes to business, it would appear he's missing out. If somebody is willing to spend a megabuck on an AN tuner, build the damn thing and take his money!!!

Agreed! Many times a small business owner is a genius in terms of developing products or service, but has no clue about the actual business side... AN (and possibly Odyssey as well) really need to expand... Demand is there and will clearly continue to be there, so they should just invest in new skilled workers....

[RGA]

The thing is Peter is a multi-millionaire and has other things he's interested in that take up a lot of his and his design team's time that may not result in making money. Building new microphones for the recording industry and a completely new A to D converter to improve the sound of the actual recordings. New mixers, etc.

The bigger a company gets the less control the owner has overseeing everything. I agree - I wish they would increase production and I know they're working on it.

[Feanor]

...

I'm sure the owner has all kinds of eccentric ideas about audio, but when it comes to business, it would appear he's missing out. If somebody is willing to spend a megabuck on an AN tuner, build the damn thing and take his money!!!

Or buy an OEM's product and relabel. Like Lexicon, right?

[Ajani]

Or buy an OEM's product and relabel. Like Lexicon, right?

Ummm.... I think that's a bit of a stretch from the point PoppaC was making... I think he was really just referring to a small company expanding workers to deliver goods, they know how to make... And not just repackaging competitor's cheaper products and selling at inflated prices, as Lexicon has done with the OPPO BR Player and Bryston Power Amps....

[Ajani]

The thing is Peter is a multi-millionaire and has other things he's interested in that take up a lot of his and his design team's time that may not result in making money. Building new microphones for the recording industry and a completely new A to D converter to improve the sound of the actual recordings. New mixers, etc.

The bigger a company gets the less control the owner has overseeing everything. I agree - I wish they would increase production and I know they're working on it.

Problem is that trying to be involved in so many areas is exactly what a bigger company is capable of doing... You can't expand to have such a massive product line without actually... well... expanding.

And since all the existing AN products have already been designed, tested and sold to satisfied customers, then he doesn't need to do much overseeing of them... he just needs competent persons to follow his design instructions and assemble them... And then he can focus his time and his top designers attentions on new endeavors...

You can expand without losing all control of a business...

[RGA]

Agreed and I know Peter is working on some things - he has for example outsourced production of the zero series to a second plant in Lithuania and apparently a third is being looked into for other things.

Unfortunately some stuff just takes a lot of time to build. It's not like this stuff is made from molds and slapped together on assembly lines.

[nightflier]

There is another problem with expanding a small company in that its products (and I can say this is definitely the case for Odyssey), are not exactly static because they tailor to the customer's requests. It's what gives the smaller shops a notch up on the competition, but also makes reviewing a bit risky since what the reviewer reviewed isn't necessarily the same product another customer might get.

For example, I asked Klaus to custom configure something for me, use different components and add ports. No problem (if you're willing to pay extra, of course). But is that the same one that 6moons and other sites raved about? Weeeelll not exactly. Smaller shops can do this, but good luck trying to get Arcam, Integra, or even Conrad-Johnson to do this - you'd have to be a lot more important than I am or be willing to pay much more than I can afford. I suppose you could also 3rd-party mod your gear, and that is always a good option, but again, these have nothing to do with the standard product line that reviewers have to review.

[RGA]

Nightflier

You raise an interesting advantage with small companies in that you can get what you want. Odyssey is online but you can order it the way you like it and then wait. This is similar in some respects to laptops. You can walk into a big box chain and buy a laptop that may give you what you want but chances are far better that if you buy your laptop from XoticPC that you will get a vastly better computer AND for a lower price - but perhaps more importantly you will get exactly what you want.

In the case of Audio Note or perhaps Teresonic you can audition the products and then if you like it you can purchase the product the way you want it. The AN E comes in over 20 different wood finishes has several different cabling and driver choices. I see a similarity in Odyssey's approach and Audio Note's approach in that you can buy the "same" amplifier in terms of design but you can "beef it up" in terms of parts quality. The M3 Preamp for instance is exactly the same design as the M8 preamp - the difference is in the parts quality inside the units and the resulting sound. In a sense there is a "kit builder" element to the companies in that they take a platform and have various supercharged editions of those units and how far you want to take it is up to you.

I am less enthused by after market modifications because why would one think that some guy in a basement can do a better job than the manufacturer? Unless of course the manufacturer is on board with the outside modder.

I think a lot of products out there could be better with a similar approach of upgrading the level of parts inside. Sort of like those cars that had V4, V6, v8 options. With the big companies you don't generally get any of this - you can buy the Arcam integrated amp at $800 or the one at $1500 but you may be paying for stuff in the second one that is unnecessary such as more power instead of a better power supply. I notice that Teresonic does the same thing with several different Lowther drivers.

[mlsstl]

...And since all the existing AN products have already been designed, tested and sold to satisfied customers, then he doesn't need to do much overseeing of them... he just needs competent persons to follow his design instructions and assemble them... And then he can focus his time and his top designers attentions on new endeavors...

You can expand without losing all control of a business...

While many businesses are interested in ever-expanding, this doesn't necessarily apply to all small businesses. I know a number of craftsmen who are only interested in continuing what they are doing right now. They don't want to add production, people, gain new sales or otherwise expand.

I'd make the observation there are two ends to the business spectrum. Some people start a business to make money. They don't care if they sell speakers, toilet bowl plungers or widgets. At the other end are those who get into a business because they truly love their craft and a business simply gives them the means to pursue doing things exactly the way they want.

Certainly lots of businesses are someplace in the middle.

I'd imagine Peter at AN knows what his options are, and he's probably doing things just the way he wishes. That can be frustrating for his retailers who'd like more product and faster, but they can always drop the line and move to another product if things get too bad.

[blackraven]

The bottom line is that we will never be able to get a totally objective review for a number of reasons.

1-We all hear things differently and have our own personal tastes.
2-Different reviewers use different amps, preamps, speakers, cable's,
listening environments, etc. How can you properly evaluate Brand A
amp when you are using Brand B preamp and Brand C CDP as well
as different music? And some other reviewer is evaluating Brand A
amp and using Brand X preamp and Brand Z CDP.

It would be nice to see some standardization. For example, when evaluating an NAD amp, then do so using all NAD equipment. Once you have done that, then you might want to do a review with the NAD amp with some higher end preamp to get a frame of reference.

The bottom line is to just use a review as a starting point and take it with a grain of salt.

[paulspencer]

What would make reviews more useful? When it comes to speakers, much better measurements. Speaker reviews are often tedious to read, they go on at length about how various samples of music sound, but I find myself skimming through those parts. Not that I'm not interested, it's just that I might not know those tracks, and even if I did, do I trust their subjective opinion? What would really be useful would be some real measurements - the kind that aren't typically shown. Impulse response and polar response out to 90 degrees in small angular increments. Harmonic distortion broken down into components and shown at small and large signal levels.

[nightflier]

Here's another item that's not often well covered: build quality as it relates to sound. Lots of articles will give a quick overview of good build quality, but very few go into why that might matter (this is especially important for analog gear). That is one of the things that draws me to Audioholics because they do take the cover off and talk about the insides. Most reviewers in magazines (Stereophile is notorious for this) will take the manufacturer's word for what's inside and then move onto how their own esoteric music (that no one else owns) sounds on said piece of gear.

Speaking of music choices, there should be a number of well known top-quality recordings that are used in this industry as standard baselines. Everyone owns at least one Diana Krall or Norah Jones album, likewise everyone probably has a copy of Carmina Burana, or Beethoven's 5th. Can't this industry settle on a few well recorded ones and use those for auditioning? I have my own favorites, but I wouldn't mind switching to someone else's if it will mean I can go to the point 2:45 minutes into their favorite auditioning track where they said they heard such and such.