What to see the insides of gear...

[frenchmon]

...well check this site out. HiFi Shock!

Hifi Shock Home Page

[Hyfi]

cool spot, and amazing just how little is inside some of the stuff

[frenchmon]

cool spot, and amazing just how little is inside some of the stuff

Yeah....I was truly surprised by some of it.

[JoeE SP9]

Take a look at the the Stereophile review of the Audio Note CD-4.1X CD player. There is a nude shot of it. I don't care how good it sounds. There is simply no way it's worth $12,000.

[Feanor]

Take a look at the the Stereophile review of the Audio Note CD-4.1X CD player. There is a nude shot of it. I don't care how good it sounds. There is simply no way it's worth $12,000.

By contrast maybe, ludicrously expensive as they are, Accuphase components at least give the impression of great build and a lot of "stuff" for the money ... C-3800 preamp ...

[JohnMichael]

Thanks Frenchmon for the link. I like the looks of my Krell S-300i insides. I have a few audio products in mind that may not contain much. I will be checking them out.

[E-Stat]

By contrast maybe, ludicrously expensive as they are, Accuphase components at least give the impression

It's interesting how we each have a different perspective on this aesthetic. Sorry, but that still looks like consumer goods to me. Even if the cover has a "natural persimmons wood finish". Here are some other pics of the op amp laden boards (17 in toto!):

More C-3800 pics

One of the first things I did when I got the Emotiva XPA-5 was to look inside. Well done, but clearly consumer grade. Even had that smell. If you've ever had a Japanese receiver, you know what I mean.

One of my best friend's (from high school) father was an electron microscopist. Isn't that a great job title? He was a professor at GA Tech. So, Tim was the only kid on his block with a $100k scanning electron microscope in the basement. The machining on the vacuum chamber was phenomenal. The electronics were instrument quality.

That describes my preference. Instrument quality. Performance with subtle styling. No impressive light show. Perhaps that is one reason I have always gravitated towards ARC gear since first hearing the SP-3a. Here's one of my faves:

REF 5

Scroll down and drill into the pics. Some other gear with great build quality I've seen are by Burmester and Edge. Physically speaking, the most impressive disc player I've seen by far is the Burmester 969/970 transport and DAC. It's a top loader with a wonderfully machined loading mechanism.



Now, the Edge Signature 1 with its precisely fit aluminum chassis and engraved lettering using counter sunk machine screws.



Ironically, as good sounding as the Edge amps were to me, I preferred the ugly duckling gentle giants sitting behind them. VTL Wotans. 500 watt triode mono amps.

[JohnMichael]

Here is an int. amp that I considered based on reviews. LFD makes int. amps based on performance and not power. The amp cost more than my Krell. I decided the Krell would have enough power to drive any speaker I might choose in the future.

[Feanor]

It's interesting how we each have a different perspective on this aesthetic. Sorry, but that still looks like consumer goods to me. Even if the cover has a "natural persimmons wood finish". Here are some other pics of the op amp laden boards (17 in toto!):

More C-3800 pics
....

Humm ... well, to me "consumer goods" implies mass production. I doubt that applies to Accuphase. It's all quite subjective, but to me the effort Accuphase takes to deliver the ordered & symmetrical look is admirable. The REF 5 is nice but looks a bit ad hoc.



BTW, as for exterior component designs my two favourites just happen to be Accuphase and ARC.

[Feanor]

Speaking of "consumer good" though, I do kind of like the Cambridge Azure 840E ....

[RGA]

Take a look at the the Stereophile review of the Audio Note CD-4.1X CD player. There is a nude shot of it. I don't care how good it sounds. There is simply no way it's worth $12,000.

You don't care how good it sound? According to Art it's one of the two best he's ever heard and the other is $8,000 more.

But aside from sound quality and just looking inside what exactly is the sticking point.

I'd rather "quality parts" than 400 .1c resisters and .50 caps and OPamps filling the box up to look like it's expensive.

Go to a dealer and sit in front of a DAC 4.1 with the top removed. Audio Note has little to no competition when it comes to parts quality - one reason I like them so much.

[JoeE SP9]

You don't care how good it sound? According to Art it's one of the two best he's ever heard and the other is $8,000 more.

But aside from sound quality and just looking inside what exactly is the sticking point.

I'd rather "quality parts" than 400 .1c resisters and .50 caps and OPamps filling the box up to look like it's expensive.

Go to a dealer and sit in front of a DAC 4.1 with the top removed. Audio Note has little to no competition when it comes to parts quality - one reason I like them so much.

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread. As an EE (retired) I have some idea about what components actually cost. As good as the Audio Note may sound the parts count/quality simply doesn't justify the asking price. At half the current retail cost it would still be overpriced. Examine the parts and cost them out yourself. Even paying single lot prices for parts, what Audio Note is charging is totally ridiculous.

Read what Art Dudley thinks, in, As We see It in the current Stereophile. My response to this is it's about time.

I could see going as high as ~$2000 for the Audio Note DAC. At that they would still be making (my estimation) 400% to 500% profit.

[RGA]

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread. As an EE (retired) I have some idea about what components actually cost. As good as the Audio Note may sound the parts count/quality simply doesn't justify the asking price. At half the current retail cost it would still be overpriced. Examine the parts and cost them out yourself. Even paying single lot prices for parts, what Audio Note is charging is totally ridiculous.

Read what Art Dudley thinks, in, As We see It in the current Stereophile. My response to this is it's about time.

I could see going as high as ~$2000 for the Audio Note DAC. At that they would still be making (my estimation) 400% to 500% profit.

There is more to cost than just parts cost. Labour is orders of magnitude more expensive than parts cost in a product.

Audio Note uses better parts and has higher labour costs than virtually anyone else selling gear for similar prices.

Audio Note also does the old Rolls Royce thing where every part in your machine has a duplicate part stored for it should your unit ever fail. So in 25 years when your CD player dies they have an extra transport stocked for it, and every other part is available. When you drop large coin in 8 years you don't want to hear that there is no repair option available. And a lot of people can't get cabinets or tweeters for their speakers from just 10 years ago from the major speaker brands.

Mark-up is generally 10 to 1 on audio gear. Not exactly sure why AN is held to a higher standard for selling gear at similar or even higher prices to competitors who use worse parts. And very few of them have the labour costs in terms of time nor do most pay real wages, benefits, medical, and pensions. (hence if it's built in China)

The other problem with the costing is that it is easy when the parts prices are known - less so on in house exotic materials. AN is generally considered to be making the best transformers in the industry (the history of the industry for that matter) - so it would be fair to say that they would or should be the most expensive transformers of any given type available. And cases can also be made for wiring and caps.

Hand built in England takes time(labour), space, machines, - other companies can order their 500 count from Parts Express some of which may or may not be up to code which may explain why my Pioneer Elite arrived D.O.A and I had to go back and get a replacement. So much for checking each transformers to make sure it actually works. And Pioneer wasn't bad for this kind of thing.

One reason I like Soundounds' repair facility - they buy the parts that go into their repairs - they have repaired every major and most non major brand over the last 40 years. It's amazing that the same people who rip Audio Note have gear listed in their sig lines with parts quality that is truly absurdly low. Seems like a double standard.

As for prices being high - I agree on that - but audio isn't alone on this. You buy what you can afford and you whether you like the sound of it. If the $10k unit sounds better it sounds better and sound is what determines the value. In this case the two best digital sounds the reviewer heard was AN's CD player and another CD player for $8,000 more. So it's the best CD player he's ever heard at the price (and all prices lower) out of all the CD players/digital he's heard since CD became a format. And it's better than all the more expensive ones he's ever heard too (semi-tied with one more than 60% higher in price). Sound quality is the important thing no?

[frenchmon]

Oh...no problem JM. I was really shocked at some of the gear.

[Poultrygeist]

I used to own this Music Fidelity clone. Gorgeous guts but the hybrid amps just aren't my cup of tea.

Google Image Result for http://www.pacificvalve.us/images/BADA_DC-222_12AU7_Front.JPG

[Poultrygeist]

Had one of these but sold it as well. Nice color scheme.

Google Image Result for http://hi-end.on9mart.com/products/amplifiers/integ_amp/AI-YQ-VK2100/YQ-VK2100_09.jpg

[RGA]

One little thing that bugs me about Accuphase is that some of it seems to be re-badged Kenwood.

"By the way, Accuphase company was started by Kenwood employees, and all Accuphase top players have Sony KSS190A mechanism. So they are siblings so to speak. Only we know it and most people don't, so we can still buy the Ken for 1/10 th of the Accu price."

[frenchmon]

One little thing that bugs me about Accuphase is that some of it seems to be re-badged Kenwood.

"By the way, Accuphase company was started by Kenwood employees, and all Accuphase top players have Sony KSS190A mechanism. So they are siblings so to speak. Only we know it and most people don't, so we can still buy the Ken for 1/10 th of the Accu price."

You forgot the link RGA! Go down to the 8th picture to find the quote. Even has the same color of board as Accuphase.

Kenwood 9010x transport

[Feanor]

One little thing that bugs me about Accuphase is that some of it seems to be re-badged Kenwood.

"By the way, Accuphase company was started by Kenwood employees, and all Accuphase top players have Sony KSS190A mechanism. So they are siblings so to speak. Only we know it and most people don't, so we can still buy the Ken for 1/10 th of the Accu price."

Haha. You're just smarting from Joe's remarks about the Audio Note player..

But you're right that the Accuphase is through-back to the gorgeousnes of high-end Japanese equipment of the late '80s and early '90s -- not a bad thing.

[emaidel]

Certainly, looks aren't everything, but the 8 photos of the insides of my Adcom GFA-5800 are pretty impressive, and there's certainly a lot of stuff in there!

I've owned the amp since the mid 90's, and have been delighted with it since then. Nelson Pass designed it, amongst others, but has been quoted as saying it's the best-sounding Adcom amp ever. Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter, but it's certainly the best sounding amp I've ever owned, and I've had others that were considerably costlier.

[RGA]

Actually the link will make me take a closer look at Kenwoods - you never know if you see one on the used market for cheap it might be a good pick-up.

Here in HK I saw a used Wadia sitting right beside a TEAC (coincidentally). The TEAC VRDS transport is the same one used in the Wadia transport - the price difference was massive. Wadia has the name - but you'll get every bit the player in the TEAC for about 1/8 the price.

Granted some companies actually modify units they receive from suppliers but not all and that link seems to suggest Wadia did absolutely nothing (at least to that model).

Audio Note doesn't really have competition in the sense that they arguably make and use the best transformers and caps in the industry. They use them and others don't so it gives them an advantage right off in the parts quality game.

As to whether something is worth the money well - AN operates between a 3-5% cost to retail mark-up. Terry at Soundhounds told me that the rest of the stuff in the store operates on at LEAST a 10-1 mark-up. That means not a single competing component does better than a 10-1 cost to retail price scenario (and worse that covers marketing, shipping, packaging, labor.

So that means the $500 speakers are at best $50 in materials the $2000 are at best $200 in materials. Soundhounds sells the following Products

Labour is big which is why AN has a kits division to take British labour out of the equation (mostly as they still spend hours pair matching parts of the kits).

Unlike a lot of manufacturers Audio Note is not simply buying a CD player taking the cover off and putting their own cover on and multiplying the price by 10.

Virtually every thing they make is a two box unit first. They then take the two units and put them in a large case making it an integrated - or one box. Most companies have a number and they make something to hit the number so integrateds are designed as integrated or one box players. The OTO Phono SE is an M1 preamp and P2 power amp and Phono stage placed into one large box. The price goes down because it shares one case (less materials). But the actual parts inside are identical to the separates.

I like that there is a kits division - you want to save money then all you need to do is build a Dac 2 Sig Kit and buy a Chinese transport that uses the Philips Pro 2 and you can very likely cut the CD 4.1 price below half because you're not longer paying for labour. This assumes you can trust the Chinese version of the Philips transport but personally speaking as much as I like the 4.1 I would go two box and save money and get very close. Some people want less clutter I guess.

Like I say I would personally not buy the AN CD 4.1 - it sounds first rate but I think you can get the same/very close to same results far cheaper.

First, few people can drop $12,000 on a CD player in one go.

So I would do it in stages. I don't buy that the transport is as critical as some. This is why I bought the LM CD 215 which uses a decent Sony mechanism - but more to the point it sounds very good in its own right as a one box player. Really good. I could then add a DAC 3.1 later and combined I'd be getting a better DAC than the one in the 4.1 and lose a bit on the transport but it would cost less than half the price.

If a transport is critical this is what I would buy

The Opera consonance Droplet since it uses the Philips Pro 2M transport and looks gorgeous ($3200)
Consonance Droplet CDP-5.0D Fully Balanced Tube CD Player

Then I'd add an AN DAC 4.1 later (which is a higher end DAC than the one in the 4.1) for $3,275. Audio Note Kits - DAC Kit 4.1

Total is $6,475 and takes up considerably more space but personally that is what I would do. Pay $200 or so and they'll build the DAC for you to boot so even if you're chicken to build it is still a much cheaper proposition.

Now if only every other company would offer kits - It would be nice to have those $2000 speakers Soundhounds sells in kit form for $350-$500

[Feanor]

...
Then I'd add an AN DAC 4.1 later (which is a higher end DAC than the one in the 4.1) for $3,275. Audio Note Kits - DAC Kit 4.1
...
Now if only every other company would offer kits - It would be nice to have those $2000 speakers Soundhounds sells in kit form for $350-$500

I agree about kits in general. The AN DAC 4.1 (kit) obviously is an exotic design with some exotic and doubtless costly parts; transformer coupling, etc.. I'd go so far as to say it's "good value" ...



But is it worth $3215 more than my current $60 DAC from eBay ... uhmm ... maybe not.

[Glen B]

Often we thiok some manufacturers are asking too much for what is inside the components they're selling. We need to remember that they need to recoup the money spent on R&D when pricing their products. They are not in business to lose money.

I've built a number of DIY items as a favor to members of various forums (DC blockers and IR remote triggers for the legacy model Classe amplifiers) at near cost price. If I were to charge what I thought was a fair and reasonable price for my precious spare time building these items, people would probably think they were being ripped off paying so much for what seems like so little for the money.

I don't doubt there are manufacturers who charge too much, but that is a topic for another discussion. Just my $.02.

[Poultrygeist]

I build speakers for the joy of accomplishment. I almost feel I should be paying someone just for the experience.

[MrAcoustat]

Hi i love to see the insides of units, here are a few photos of my Acoustat's 1+1s interface.