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  1. #1
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    what ever happened to Mtrycrafts and CE?

    They livened up the forum. CE with his Legacy Foci (one in one room, the other in another) and Mtrycraft's line of reason vs the audiophile insane clown posse?

  2. #2
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Gone, gone

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbagump
    They livened up the forum. CE with his Legacy Foci (one in one room, the other in another) and Mtrycraft's line of reason vs the audiophile insane clown posse?
    bubba,

    I haven't seen Mtrycraft around here for years. He's likely in the land of the living, though, as saw him on another forum a year or so ago.

    Can't say I recall CE, but I might be just forgetting since I've been around here since '02.

  3. #3
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Don't know about CE, but I've seen Mtrycraft over at Audioholics now and then.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  4. #4
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    ...but I've seen Mtrycraft over at Audioholics now and then.
    Now and then? He's now an Audioholics Overlord !

    rw

  5. #5
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Now and then? He's now an Audioholics Overlord !

    rw
    Hahaha... Maybe I'm the one who's only there now and then.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  6. #6
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    CE... My goodness that is a name that takes me back to a time I was using a different user name.... been so long I can't even remember what it was. I will say that I was a Legacy speaker owner back then and was ready to hunt him down for all of his Focus ridiculousness. He set Legacy Audio sales back 10 years with his over-the-top Focus bravado.

    Mtrycrafts I actually miss. While I may not have agreed with him all the time, I found him quite rational and interesting.

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  7. #7
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drseid
    I found him quite rational and interesting.
    I'll be a dissenting voice on the rational part. He had trouble following posts that involved details.

    Here is an example he purported to defend his position about cables. I think he never grasped the fact that the two cable contestants were both mid-priced flavors. After calling his hand on alleged "facts", he had to acknowledge that ZERO of his referenced tests used gear anything better than entry level receivers. These posts referenced illustrate. Indeed he was most entertaining.

    rw

  8. #8
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    I guess he's mostly in Audio Asylum..

    I guess CE's still on the hunt over at Audio Asylum. If you don't remember him, he was sort of Grouch Marx to everyone elses (everyone that took the bait that is) fall guy. After someone reminded me of Audio Asylum, I searched and found a lot of his trheads. It's hilarious how people often respond to his nonsense in fits of rage. http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl...akers&m=101021


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    bubba,

    I haven't seen Mtrycraft around here for years. He's likely in the land of the living, though, as saw him on another forum a year or so ago.

    Can't say I recall CE, but I might be just forgetting since I've been around here since '02.

  9. #9
    RGA
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    This forum banned discussion of DBT's and as such the forum has never been the same since. You have to weigh the irritating endless DBT discussions versus a ghost town forum that this forum has since become.

    On the other hand - people are free to make whatever decision they wish to make. My suggestion has always been to have a "sticky" on every page of every forum directing people to a "Why you should do a DBT before you buy." Then I suggested to people like Mrtycrft and PatD and theaudiohobby, and eyespy to get together and write a paper with all the links and tests that have ever been conducted - put in an article and then whenever a newbie comes on the forum you say "read this" and direct them to the link.

    A sticky with a similar article for reasons against that have been documented in psychology and biology journals illustrating the deficiencies in such tests can also be posted in a counter sticky. Then the person can be directed to both sides of the debate.

    It is not for me to convince you which side of the debate to believe - it is up to YOU to decide based on the articles written.

    This way the person can read the arguments and decide for themselves where they want to pitch their tent. For some reason (I was guilty at one time as well) we feel the need to "win" the argument but I have never seen any person on any forum in 11 years change their mind on this topic. And countless threads and countless verbiage has been spent on it usually between the same people making the same case over and over again.

    Once you've told the newbie about the DBT what it does why you should use it - then be done with it - you made the point and now it's caveat emptor. Spend the rest of your time going after the drug industry where lives are on the line rather than saving some rich kid who is looking at spending $4000 on a meter of cable. Frankly - if this kid gets screwed and the cable is no different - how did you really help the world? If you got $4k to spend on a meter of wire then you have no "real" problems, when it comes to money anyway.

  10. #10
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    It's funny you should mention the drug industry.

    They rely very, very heavily on DBT's in their evaluations. But, to mention them for audio applications, particularly here, here is an anathema

  11. #11
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Mtrycrafts was a pain in the butt. When it came to wires, he took a stance and never deviated from it. He would repeat his position over and over and over and would not engage in any discussion outside the scope of his beliefs. He was closed minded beyond reason.

    Still, everything he said was reasonable and made sense, but if anything was mentioned that didn't fit into his rational logic, he would simply blow it off and go on his tirade about DBT's.

    My only real complaint was that if there was a discussion about wires he would hijack the thread and harass until people just quit the discussion.

    Well anyway, I really don't miss him. Once the discussion went beyond DBT's and wire tests using electronic test equipment, he had nothing to offer. His mind seemed to go blank.

    Yes, he would liven up the conversation, but he did this by criticizing the posts of other members of this board and starting arguments. His world was black and white and there was no room for any ideas that didn't fit his beliefs. It was his way or the highway. He had no respect for any opinion other than his own. As for myself, for a long time I quit posting here because of him. I really didn't feel like getting into a fight every time I said anything. It wouldn't surprise me if others left the board for the same reason. He did more harm than good.

    As for this forum, it has quieted down a great deal over the years. From time to time, some of the best discussions I have read have come from members of this board, but for the most part, the discussion here is is rather benign. No offense guys, but when I am researching I rarely spend much time on this site. However, I love audioreview. It is a great place for lighter and less focused conversation.

  12. #12
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Sadly true

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    This forum banned discussion of DBT's and as such the forum has never been the same since. You have to weigh the irritating endless DBT discussions versus a ghost town forum that this forum has since become.

    ...
    Yes, it's my clear recollection that many people bailed from AR forums when the then moderators announce a stricter policy that included banning, (deleting), certain controversial topics.

    I don't recall that it was only DBT but I was never aware of a specific list of topics or behaviors that were to be banned. In any case a number of people left including Mtrycrafts. The place has never really recovered.

  13. #13
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Whatever was done

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant
    Mtrycrafts was a pain in the butt. When it came to wires, he took a stance and never deviated from it. He would repeat his position over and over and over and would not engage in any discussion outside the scope of his beliefs. He was closed minded beyond reason.

    Still, everything he said was reasonable and made sense, but if anything was mentioned that didn't fit into his rational logic, he would simply blow it off and go on his tirade about DBT's.

    My only real complaint was that if there was a discussion about wires he would hijack the thread and harass until people just quit the discussion.

    Well anyway, I really don't miss him. Once the discussion went beyond DBT's and wire tests using electronic test equipment, he had nothing to offer. His mind seemed to go blank.

    Yes, he would liven up the conversation, but he did this by criticizing the posts of other members of this board and starting arguments. His world was black and white and there was no room for any ideas that didn't fit his beliefs. It was his way or the highway. He had no respect for any opinion other than his own. As for myself, for a long time I quit posting here because of him. I really didn't feel like getting into a fight every time I said anything. It wouldn't surprise me if others left the board for the same reason. He did more harm than good.

    As for this forum, it has quieted down a great deal over the years. From time to time, some of the best discussions I have read have come from members of this board, but for the most part, the discussion here is is rather benign. No offense guys, but when I am researching I rarely spend much time on this site. However, I love audioreview. It is a great place for lighter and less focused conversation.
    Mtrycrafts was as vociferous as he was dogmatic although personally he didn't bother me that much. But if, as you imply, people lelt stifled because of him, then it would clearly have better to have banned him rather than controversial discussion. But it was the latter that was done with the consequence that we lost not only "Marty" but also a lot of other people too.

    I brings to mind an individual at another forum, clarkjohnsen, who got himself banned for slanderous insinuation or some such pretext, but ultimately for arrogant contempt for other members. 80% of his posts were snide, no-text one liners.
    Last edited by Feanor; 04-22-2009 at 06:27 AM.

  14. #14
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    This forum banned discussion of DBT's and as such the forum has never been the same since. You have to weigh the irritating endless DBT discussions versus a ghost town forum that this forum has since become.
    That is not true. Like AA, such discussions were encouraged - but in the Audio Lab.

    rw

  15. #15
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    They rely very, very heavily on DBT's in their evaluations.
    Yet, there is a critical difference: participant training and experience do not affect the results with medical trials.

    rw

  16. #16
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant
    Mtrycrafts was a pain in the butt. When it came to wires, he took a stance and never deviated from it. He would repeat his position over and over and over and would not engage in any discussion outside the scope of his beliefs. He was closed minded beyond reason.

    Still, everything he said was reasonable and made sense, but if anything was mentioned that didn't fit into his rational logic, he would simply blow it off and go on his tirade about DBT's.

    My only real complaint was that if there was a discussion about wires he would hijack the thread and harass until people just quit the discussion.

    Well anyway, I really don't miss him. Once the discussion went beyond DBT's and wire tests using electronic test equipment, he had nothing to offer. His mind seemed to go blank.

    Yes, he would liven up the conversation, but he did this by criticizing the posts of other members of this board and starting arguments. His world was black and white and there was no room for any ideas that didn't fit his beliefs. It was his way or the highway. He had no respect for any opinion other than his own. As for myself, for a long time I quit posting here because of him. I really didn't feel like getting into a fight every time I said anything. It wouldn't surprise me if others left the board for the same reason. He did more harm than good.

    As for this forum, it has quieted down a great deal over the years. From time to time, some of the best discussions I have read have come from members of this board, but for the most part, the discussion here is is rather benign. No offense guys, but when I am researching I rarely spend much time on this site. However, I love audioreview. It is a great place for lighter and less focused conversation.

    Guilty as charged.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  17. #17
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Here we go again.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Yet, there is a critical difference: participant training and experience do not affect the results with medical trials.

    rw
    Since when are the subjects of drug tests DBT's trained? They are just yer average people off the street chosen to meet certain demographics. They simpy take the drugs, report any symptoms/perceptions and subject themselves to some medical testing to prove the results.

    If audiable differences between products under discussion are as significant as claimed, training is not needed. Just listen and report.

    Again, if one is going to charge much, much greater for their product, or make grandiose claims about their product's superiority, over another companys product of the same functionality, one would assume that proven superiority would be an advantage.

    but, for some reason, it never happens and, at least here, you can't even mention it here.

    ...and people wonder why this site became a virtual shadow of what it once was.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Yet, there is a critical difference: participant training and experience do not affect the results with medical trials.

    rw
    Actually, they do in medical trials often too.

  19. #19
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    Another common misconception

    Quote Originally Posted by markw

    but, for some reason, it never happens and, at least here, you can't even mention it here.

    ...and people wonder why this site became a virtual shadow of what it once was.
    After about 10 months under the regime that lead to the exodus, these conversations creeped back in here.

    You'll find the rules aren't enforced much differently than they were pre-purge now.

  20. #20
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    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    .

    If audiable differences between products under discussion are as significant as claimed, training is not needed. Just listen and report.
    I guess if you have to exert tremendous effort to hear a difference, or convince yourself you hear something, it validates some of these claims.

    I have become a better critical listener over the years from my speaker building hobby and from listening to more music with better gear. If anything I feel this has helped me see past a lot of the snake oil and be a better judge of value in perceived benefits.

  21. #21
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Since when are the subjects of drug tests DBT's trained? They are just yer average people off the street chosen to meet certain demographics. They simpy take the drugs, report any symptoms/perceptions and subject themselves to some medical testing to prove the results.
    I seem to have trouble communicating my thoughts clearly for you. Your comments detail the point I am trying to make. Training and experience can, however, effect the results of audio tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    If audiable differences between products under discussion are as significant as claimed, training is not needed. Just listen and report.
    It depends upon what you are trying to prove. If you are doing broad testing for a general audience, then training and familiarity aren't required. The kind Bose would do. If, however, you are trying to determine what differences truly exist, then I submit you need trained participants. Like using professional drivers on a test track to ascertain the true ability of a car's performance envelope. Not your grandmother. My ability to discern fine differences is greatly enhanced when I use familiar material on a familiar system. The fact that any one individual cannot tell a difference between component A and component B does not mean differences do not exist.

    rw

  22. #22
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Actually, they do in medical trials often too.
    Please explain. How does "experience" affect the outcome of a drug trial? The pharmaceutical tests my wife (who is a PharmD) tells me about do not support that notion.

    rw

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Please explain. How does "experience" affect the outcome of a drug trial? The pharmaceutical tests my wife (who is a PharmD) tells me about do not support that notion.

    rw
    Experience by patients developing tolernace to drugs over time, familiarity with administration techniques of other drugs (think inhalers and such for asthma), etc...just to name a few.

  24. #24
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Experience by patients developing tolernace to drugs over time
    That's not a developed skill. It is an unavoidable consequence of the medication. I refer to training in the sense of being able to control the outcome, not be passively affected by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    ... familiarity with administration techniques of other drugs (think inhalers and such for asthma), etc...just to name a few.
    Here again, such does not refer to the ability of one to alter the outcome beyond the very basic notion of proper delivery. Once a given amount of medication is given to a participant, can you think of any way someone could "learn" to make the results more effective?

    rw

  25. #25
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That's not a developed skill. It is an unavoidable consequence of the medication. I refer to training in the sense of being able to control the outcome, not be passively affected by it.
    Experience isn't limited to "developed skills".
    Here again, such does not refer to the ability of one to alter the outcome beyond the very basic notion of proper delivery. Once a given amount of medication is given to a participant, can you think of any way someone could "learn" to make the results more effective?
    I guess if you restrict the definitions of "experience" and "training" to the narrow meanings you've responded with, and limit medical trials to drugs only, and then limit those drug trials to a chemical function of merely dosage quantity and corresponding result alone in cases where the drug's therapeutic effects can be measured objectively, then I would agree with you. Unfortuantely that would exclude a great deal of medical trials and your original post was nowhere near this detailed.

    In my job I spend considerable time reviewing the results of a lot of drug and medical equipment studies by some of companies we hold in our portfolio. Believe me, patient experience and training are some of the most common reasons for misleading and misinterpreted test results in medical trials and more than a few companies and investors have lost boat loads of research money because they failed to compensate or anticipate such variables.

    And, much like audio, many drug and medical trials rely heavily on subjectivity to evaluate results. (ie, degree of pain relief), so yeah, I do believe there is room for "learned" results as well.

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