What else can I expect?

[E-Stat]

I I realize I could spend considerably more on a system, but can anyone tell me what more I would really be getting? What improvements are possible from here? Etc...

There is a musical world beyond the capabilities of most systems. Certainly beyond mine. Imagine a soundstage with apparent height, width and depth far beyond the extents of your walls. The ability to place musicians both laterally and depthwise on an enormous stage. Possessing an ineffable feeling of authority - or an uttter ease during even the most demanding of passages. One where a triangle or xylophone floats above the orchestra and hangs there with a soft decay. Voices so palpable they seem to truly be in the room with you. One that evokes the deepest emotional response from music.

I have the good fortune to have heard one such system in a home setting used by an audio reviewer friend of mine. It was really an experience to hear cherished pieces of music that I've heard hundreds of times before really for the first time again. There are rhythms and melodies trapped away in most CDs that are rarely heard. While I enjoy my own systems, I always look forward to hearing that one again.

rw

[Resident Loser]

"...There are rhythms and melodies trapped away in most CDs that are rarely heard..."

I'm sorry, but you can't be serious...

"...One where a triangle or xylophone floats above the orchestra and hangs there with a soft decay..."

So much for an accurate image, eh? Floating xylophones? Too much Chagall...

"... Voices so palpable they seem to truly be in the room with you..."

Not difficult...it's all a product of the software anywho...a good source is a good source on everything from a boombox to the ne plus ultra in wild extravagance...

"...One that evokes the deepest emotional response from music..."

THAT is a product of the composition and performance...I am as moved by Pavarotti's "Nessun Dorma"(sp) on my GE portable with it's 2.5in. speaker as I am on my tweeked, EQd and calibrated home system...

jimHJJ(...after all, it IS the music that matters...)

[E-Stat]

"...There are rhythms and melodies trapped away in most CDs that are rarely heard..."

I'm sorry, but you can't be serious...

I tells it like I hears it. My main system is pretty good by most accounts. The one to which I refer is beyond belief. I realize you are not one of the hobbyists who likes to compare system notes, but I will provide details of that one for anyone who is interested.

I will fully agree on the diminishing returns comment. But then, that is not what J*E*Cole asked for.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...if these questions don't open Pandora's box and let all the worms out, I don't know what does...

"...I realize I could spend considerably more on a system, but can anyone tell me what more I would really be getting? What improvements are possible from here? Etc..."

If the caveat of "diminishing returns" is not appropriate at this jucture, I'd like to know at what point you might think it so...

The following has nothing to do with the subject per se, but...on occasion, I relate this story about a "Beach Boys" cut on a "Best of" tape...It, and a few others, are listened predominantly to via Walkman when I do yard work, to the accompaniment of mowers and trimmers and such(oh my!)...One time(in absence of such mechanical cacaphony), I heard what sounded like speech during an instrumental portion of "Fun, Fun, Fun"(I think, think, think)...a quick rewind later and sure enough, way in the background, I could hear what may or may not be direction for the vocals to follow...never heard it before on my main system(and you aren't supposed to, I'd hazard a guess) but now that I know it's there, it's as plain as day...this track also pre-dates widespread use of 'phones on a consumer level...

You hear "rhythms and melodies"? Well, I do also...that defines "music" IMHO...the question arises then, what artist, producer and/or engineer would "hide" those bits and pieces to all but those few who can afford mega-bux amounts in playback gear?...and keep in mind, money seems to be the determining factor here.

My point is, yes, there can be things "buried" in the mix...perhaps they would be noticed in their absence...but as rhythmic and harmonic counterpoint, should they be noticed, however, as a separate entities? Which presentation is "right"?

jimHJJ(...not looking to argue the point, just providing an alternate viewpoint...)

[E-Stat]

I relate this story about a "Beach Boys" cut on a "Best of" tape...

I can relate to that phenomena. I remember a similar situation with a cassette based Walkman and in particular a guitar solo piece by Michael Hedges from Aerial Boundaries. There is a faint string harmonic struck that appears in the background twice. The first time more subtle than the last. I was first aware of that listening to headphones and later I anticipated it's arrival elsewhere. Ironically, it remains relatively louder on the Walkman since the tape is compressed.

You hear "rhythms and melodies"?

Jim, I don't know how to describe this any better. On very familiar material that I've heard a bazillion times (including with a Diskman), I continue to hear more vividly underlying rhythms when I hear certain systems other than my own. With them, it is so easy to pick apart the patterns of any one instrument amidst all the other "action". Unlike the "Walkman-memory" phenomena, I am unable to reproduce what I'm referring to with my stuff.

My point is, yes, there can be things "buried" in the mix...perhaps they would be noticed in their absence...but as rhythmic and harmonic counterpoint, should they be noticed, however, as a separate entities? Which presentation is "right"?

Again, I find this to be a matter of degrees. I'm sure Gus Holst would like for everyone to hear all the nuance and counterpoint found in the Mercury movement of The Planets. between the strings, winds, and harp. Not to mention the harmonic richness of the woodwinds and the resin-y character of strings.

rw

[Lensman]

There is a musical world beyond the capabilities of most systems. Certainly beyond mine... One that evokes the deepest emotional response from music.

I have the good fortune to have heard one such system in a home setting used by an audio reviewer friend of mine... While I enjoy my own systems, I always look forward to hearing that one again.

...My main system is pretty good by most accounts. The one to which I refer is beyond belief... but I will provide details of that one for anyone who is interested.

...diminishing returns, were the amount spent is hardly justified by perceived improvement... suffice it to say the whole "listening experience" is built on illusion and one's "perception"...

Further expenditure on stereo gear MAY provide more power, better low frequency extension, that sort of thing...then of course further expense(according to some) should be in the form of "hospital grade" AC outlets, aftermarket power cords, line conditioners, dedicated power circuits, cable bridges...but we are getting back to "perception" again...

I've always set my benchmark as live performances. Over the years I've listened to a number of systems and some have come closer than others to reaching my desired goal. But I've yet to hear an audio system+recording+acoustics treatment that could fully trick my ears into thinking I'm hearing something live. I have, however, heard a couple that came close enough to make me believe my benchmark might be achievable.

Of course these "astounding" systems were unbelievably expensive and the differences they exhibited over the merely "great" were slight indeed. So are they worth it? Well, you can debate it endlessly. But like most things in life, I think there's no absolute answer. Only an answer that's right for you. Regardless, there's no denying there are enough people who say "yes" to keep multitudes of this incredibly priced gear on the market.

Unfortunately, as Resident Loser infers, there are also those who take advantage of this and profit by selling items that do nothing more positive than improve the perception of the buyer. As for me, if I had the wealth of Bill Gates, I'm sure I'd spend a lot searching for the pure musical joy E-Stat mentions. And I might get taken in by a snake-oil salesman or two in the process despite my best attempts at avoidance. I'm compelled to think a lot of us on this forum would do the same regardless of what we may say otherwise.

With my real life job, family, mortgage, etc., there's no way I'd spend the kind of money the real, but often almost insignificant, improvements cost - if I even could. And I'm wary of everything since it's not always easy to "just try it and see." So instead I'll balance my expenses to keep my family fed, sheltered and happy, afford a few other toys and pursuits, be happy with my modest system, dream about what could be, and hope technology and research someday make it possible for me to buy it.

And on the subject of dreams, E-Stat, I for one would be most grateful for details on your friend's system. And since J*E*Cole asked, "What else can I expect?" I think he might be too.

I'm sure Gus Holst would like for everyone to hear...

Since you bring Holst up... My favorite rendition of his Planets symphony has always been by Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic. Unfortunately I find the recording less than satisfactory. What version do you prefer?

[piece-it pete]

JE,

Congrats on your happiness. One can become so... obsessed? jaded? chasing the almost unachievable goal of accurate sound reproduction that we don't realise how good our systems sound IMHO.

I'm guilty of this (Dang it!! Where's the magic? THAT doesn't sound live!! grumble grumble need new speakers grumble better tt grumble a 25 x 60 clamshaped addition!!), that probably applies to most of us, at least at one time or another. And I have only spent a fraction of many.

Then the friends come by - Wow! Man, that sounds GREAT! Do you have/can you play (maggotbrain, Ricci, Frankie Yankovic, fill in the blank)?

I was not offended.

I remember when I got my 1st pair of "good" speakers - that I would not use now - hooked up to a BOOMBOX. A decent one, but still. I was estatic!!

Blah blah blah. The Monstrous One and the Defender of the Free Universe are onto something, knowing the way music really sounds will allow you to accurately judge the sound of various components/systems when you demo them.

The biggest difference I've heard since getting decent (to me) components is: 1) quality stereo subs. Many will disagree, but to me at least, it added a astounding level of realism I had not heard previously, amazing, even my better half noticed, and 2) upgrading to a preamp and using my rec'r as an amp, in my case inexpensive pre (a Hafler DH110) yielded concrete results.

I've not had as much experience with high end stuff as many here, but that's what I've heard with my own ears so far.

Good luck!

Pete

[E-Stat]

And on the subject of dreams, E-Stat, I for one would be most grateful for details on your friend's system. And since J*E*Cole asked, "What else can I expect?" I think he might be too.

Certainly. I might add that this system consists largely of components on loan to him by the various manufacturers. It completely recalibrated my perception of what an audio system can achieve and is downright spooky in it's imaging capabilities. The amount of available bass power is prodigious and would likely benefit from the use of bass traps in the room (I'm working on convincing him of that! ) Naturally, some of the componentry changes over time, but here is a relatively recent photo.

Burmester 969/970 Transport / DAC
Lector CDP
Clearaudio Master Reference
VPI Scoutmaster w/TNT motor, SDS controller and clamp
Kuzma turntable
Koetsu, Helikon, and Dynavector cartridges
Conrad-Johnson ART II preamp
Groove phono preamp
(4) ASL Hurricanes (alternately heard VTL Wotans and Edge Reference Monoblocks with Krells on bass towers)
Nola (nee Alon) Grand Exoticas
Nordost Valhalla cabling throughout

As for me, if I had the wealth of Bill Gates, I'm sure I'd spend a lot searching for the pure musical joy E-Stat mentions.

My joy is simply in being able to periodically experience this system. Just like periodically attending the symphony. If I were as wealthy as Mr. Gates, I'd purchase my own symphony!

Since you bring Holst up... My favorite rendition of his Planets symphony has always been by Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic. Unfortunately I find the recording less than satisfactory. What version do you prefer?

My heart favors the RCA Ormandy / Philadelphia recording from '76. I completely wore out the LP and recently obtained a CD from Amazon. I find the Telarc Previn / LSO version sonically superior, but I always go back to the Ormandy version.

rw

[topspeed]

Next time you're at HP's, can you teach him something about home decor? I think listening to high-end equipment all these years has warped his vision in some way .

Seriously tho, what's with the skiis under the speakers? They come with plinths, why raise them up?

[E-Stat]

Seriously tho, what's with the skiis under the speakers? They come with plinths, why raise them up?

That's a Carl Marchisotto thing. I'll ask.

rw

[Geoffcin]

My joy is simply in being able to periodically experience this system. Just like periodically attending the symphony. If I were as wealthy as Mr. Gates, I'd purchase my own symphony!

rw

Now I've got system envy!

[Lensman]

Certainly. I might add that this system consists largely of components on loan to him by the various manufacturers. It completely recalibrated my perception of what an audio system can achieve and is downright spooky in it's imaging capabilities. The amount of available bass power is prodigious and would likely benefit from the use of bass traps in the room (I'm working on convincing him of that! ) Naturally, some of the componentry changes over time, but here is a relatively recent photo.

Thanks for sharing! Your friend is a lucky man, loaning situation notwithstanding. It's an impressive array indeed, especially the speakers. Despite their drawbacks, I confess a profound weakness for ribbons...

I'm at once horrified and encouraged by the room configuration and lack of treatment. I'm inclined to agree with you, bass traps would probably help considerably (I shudder to think how things might sound if the ports were rear firing). Of course, if it truly sounds as good as indicated, it gives a lot of us with room configurations far from ideal much hope. One question: just how large is the sweet spot?

My joy is simply in being able to periodically experience this system. Just like periodically attending the symphony. If I were as wealthy as Mr. Gates, I'd purchase my own symphony!

I envy your listening opportunities. Had I the wealth, I'd certainly be an influential patron of the symphony. But I'm afraid I'm still too much of a tech head not to also derive pleasure from the pursuit of trying to accurately simulate it.

My heart favors the RCA Ormandy / Philadelphia recording from '76. I completely wore out the LP and recently obtained a CD from Amazon. I find the Telarc Previn / LSO version sonically superior, but I always go back to the Ormandy version.

Thanks, I'm not familiar with that one. I'll look for it. Like you, I'm impressed by the technical proficiency of the Telarc rendition, but find it compositionally uninspiring.

[Kaboom]

Hey i am interested in those specs. could you post them please?