What else can I expect?

[J*E*Cole]

I've recently upgraded my whole system and am very pleased with the results. In fact, I think it sounds so good, I actually wonder what more I could expect in terms of sound improvements. I have used high grade cables, connectors, and wire. I have bi-wired my mains, and that made quite a difference in itself. I've set up my receiver with a sound level meter etc., etc.., and not to boast, but I think it sounds terrific. The highs are crisp and vivid, the mids are amazingly developed, and am hearing things I never heard before on old CD's. And the bass is tight and clean, without being overpowering. The soundstage is remarkably defined, and since they're all Alphas, of course the transitions are seamless. I can crank at high levels for hours and there is no hiss, no crack, no nothing, just clean, powerful music. I am constantly amazed at the capabilities of this system. I realize I could spend considerably more on a system, but can anyone tell me what more I would really be getting? What improvements are possible from here? Etc...

Thanks for any input.

[FLZapped]

I've recently upgraded my whole system and am very pleased with the results. In fact, I think it sounds so good, I actually wonder what more I could expect in terms of sound improvements. I have used high grade cables, connectors, and wire. I have bi-wired my mains, and that made quite a difference in itself. I've set up my receiver with a sound level meter etc., etc.., and not to boast, but I think it sounds terrific. The highs are crisp and vivid, the mids are amazingly developed, and am hearing things I never heard before on old CD's. And the bass is tight and clean, without being overpowering. The soundstage is remarkably defined, and since they're all Alphas, of course the transitions are seamless. I can crank at high levels for hours and there is no hiss, no crack, no nothing, just clean, powerful music. I am constantly amazed at the capabilities of this system. I realize I could spend considerably more on a system, but can anyone tell me what more I would really be getting? What improvements are possible from here? Etc...

Thanks for any input.

Who knows, we're not there. It certainly sounds like you are happy, why not just enjoy it and not worry about anything else.

-Bruce

[Lensman]

...I think it sounds so good, I actually wonder what more I could expect in terms of sound improvements... I am constantly amazed at the capabilities of this system. I realize I could spend considerably more on a system, but can anyone tell me what more I would really be getting? What improvements are possible from here? Etc...

Thanks for any input.

Sounds like you've found true audio bliss. This is a nirvana achieved by few. Rather than question it, you should enjoy it. Sure, there are people that'll tell you that you still need to buy all sorts of other things for your system, or that something you've got is "lacking." And it's often easy to believe them and go spend more money. How else could someone like Monster Cable afford naming rights to Candlestick Park? But what qualifies as great audio is a highly personal thing, and more money into equipment and tweaks doesn't always bring better sound.

If you're satisfied with what you've got, take your money and buy the ultimate system improvement: MORE MUSIC. After all, you bought you system so you could enjoy listening to stuff, right?

[Wireworm5]

I hate to be the messenger of bad news, and I don't doubt that your system sounds good and if your happy that's all that matters. But there is a level above mid-fi, called Hi-Fi and it costs thousands of dollars.Without being snobbish the difference would be similar to placing your hands loosely over your ears and removing them.(Please don't flame me for this statement, I'm just trying to be helpful)

[chimera128]

If you are just using a receiver the biggest difference will probably come when you go the separates route. I plan on getting amps/pre/pro next year as soon as I finish paying off the car (also another expensive hobby). Agreed that there are very high end components out there but there is also a point at which most people have to say is it worth it. Is the 20k cd player really 19k better than my 1k dvd/audio player. Also some of the high end stuff sounds like crap to my ears. I am sure my system wouldn't please some other people (obvious by some people's distaste for bipolar sound), but for me (even if it isn't finished) it does the job well enough that I don't find myself wondering if there is something better out there (which I am sure there is). The only problem I usually have is trying to find music and movies to listen to (and room to store them !!!).

[J*E*Cole]

Well that's kind of what I was looking for. Thanks.

[RGA]

The theory of relatively is all the improvement you will get. All things relative. If for 10 years all I listened to was my stock car radio then that would much better than no music at all. Then if I heard a "good" $400.00 mini system it would be so fantastic compared to the stock radio in my car. And this might Blow the previous systems away. Then I might hear a Paradigm or Infinity system that might blow that $400.00 mini system away and all the while I'd be saying wo w can it get better than that? Yes it very much can. But, the higher you go you will find a lot of stuff doesn't sound as HUGELY better than it should considering how much money you are putting out. Just like there is good and bad at $1k so too is there at $10k.

The trick is to find the more expensive gear from the companies that at each price incriment is "truly" offerring rather staggerring improvements. Such that you wondered how you got by with the current system you love. Been there myself. For instance one of my favorite standmounts when I first started in this hobby was the B&W CDM 1SE. I loved it. Faat forward to now after hearing a considerable amount of gear and I could not live with that speaker. The speaker didn't change - it was and is good value for money and I could recommend it as such - but I "NOW" know what I would be missing.

[J*E*Cole]

Yeah I can see what you mean when you put it like that. I see you use a CDP355. Among the 300 CD changers, do you think it's a stand out?

[Lensman]

Well that's kind of what I was looking for. Thanks.

Ah, so you ARE looking toward something better. Well, the absolute best way to see what things could be like with higher end stuff is to go to a few local audio dealers and listen to some of it. Most will be happy to plant the seeds of lust in you by letting you listen to their best. In my recent speaker buying venture, more than one dealer insisted I listen to their best $100,000+ setups even knowing I had nowhere near that kind of money to spend. Be sure to take some music selections you're familiar with on your current system, so you know exactly what differences you're hearing.

This will immediately tell you exactly where you stand. But as RGA pointed out, don't be surprised if you find $30,000 speakers don't actually sound 100 times better than your $300 Alphas. In audio, the routine is: the more money you pay, the less of an improvement you actually get. In this, audio gear is a lot like race cars. You can spend a little and turn your subcompact into a street racer. You can spend more and build a track car. But as you keep trying to go faster, you get to a point where you find yourself spending millions to build a Formula One car that's faster than your last one by only tenths of a second. Of course it's those tenths that can win races, and for hardcore audiofiles it's things like that almost imperceptable bit of extra air in the high end that can make all the difference.

That said, May I recommend you also give some thought to your listening room's acoustics? How your room is set up and where you've placed things (including furniture, wall art, etc.) can have a much more dramatic impact on the way things sound than changing out individual components or cables. Audioholics.com has a number of good articles on the subject:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...tics/index.php

You might start with this one:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...livingroom.php

[J*E*Cole]

Thanks to all for your thoughts. This is a great forum. Very helpful.

[E-Stat]

I I realize I could spend considerably more on a system, but can anyone tell me what more I would really be getting? What improvements are possible from here? Etc...

There is a musical world beyond the capabilities of most systems. Certainly beyond mine. Imagine a soundstage with apparent height, width and depth far beyond the extents of your walls. The ability to place musicians both laterally and depthwise on an enormous stage. Possessing an ineffable feeling of authority - or an uttter ease during even the most demanding of passages. One where a triangle or xylophone floats above the orchestra and hangs there with a soft decay. Voices so palpable they seem to truly be in the room with you. One that evokes the deepest emotional response from music.

I have the good fortune to have heard one such system in a home setting used by an audio reviewer friend of mine. It was really an experience to hear cherished pieces of music that I've heard hundreds of times before really for the first time again. There are rhythms and melodies trapped away in most CDs that are rarely heard. While I enjoy my own systems, I always look forward to hearing that one again.

rw

[Resident Loser]

"...There are rhythms and melodies trapped away in most CDs that are rarely heard..."

I'm sorry, but you can't be serious...

"...One where a triangle or xylophone floats above the orchestra and hangs there with a soft decay..."

So much for an accurate image, eh? Floating xylophones? Too much Chagall...

"... Voices so palpable they seem to truly be in the room with you..."

Not difficult...it's all a product of the software anywho...a good source is a good source on everything from a boombox to the ne plus ultra in wild extravagance...

"...One that evokes the deepest emotional response from music..."

THAT is a product of the composition and performance...I am as moved by Pavarotti's "Nessun Dorma"(sp) on my GE portable with it's 2.5in. speaker as I am on my tweeked, EQd and calibrated home system...

jimHJJ(...after all, it IS the music that matters...)

[Resident Loser]

...diminishing returns, were the amount spent is hardly justified by perceived improvement...and make note of that word "perceived"...I won't go any further on this subject, in this particular forum, lest I get smacked on the pee-pee, suffice it to say the whole "listening experience" is built on illusion and one's "perception"...

Further expenditure on stereo gear MAY provide more power, better low frequency extension, that sort of thing...then of course further expense(according to some) should be in the form of "hospital grade" AC outlets, aftermarket power cords, line conditioners, dedicated power circuits, cable bridges...but we are getting back to "perception" again...

jimHJJ(...enjoy the music...)

[E-Stat]

"...There are rhythms and melodies trapped away in most CDs that are rarely heard..."

I'm sorry, but you can't be serious...

I tells it like I hears it. My main system is pretty good by most accounts. The one to which I refer is beyond belief. I realize you are not one of the hobbyists who likes to compare system notes, but I will provide details of that one for anyone who is interested.

I will fully agree on the diminishing returns comment. But then, that is not what J*E*Cole asked for.

rw

[Monstrous Mike]

...and they are vastly different.

The first would be to embark on making your room sound better by analyzing the room acoustics. This can range from the very simple like rugs or drapes and can get quite complex. Let it be known that there is no such thing as an acoustically perfect room so it is likely that you can improve in this area.

My second suggestion is a bit more off the wall. And that would be to begin playing music by learning an instrument and gathering with friends to jam in the garage. I have found this sort of activity to be even more enjoyable than listening to music and really when you have a bit of experience playing with other guys, you tend to listen to other people's music with a different perspective.

[Resident Loser]

...if these questions don't open Pandora's box and let all the worms out, I don't know what does...

"...I realize I could spend considerably more on a system, but can anyone tell me what more I would really be getting? What improvements are possible from here? Etc..."

If the caveat of "diminishing returns" is not appropriate at this jucture, I'd like to know at what point you might think it so...

The following has nothing to do with the subject per se, but...on occasion, I relate this story about a "Beach Boys" cut on a "Best of" tape...It, and a few others, are listened predominantly to via Walkman when I do yard work, to the accompaniment of mowers and trimmers and such(oh my!)...One time(in absence of such mechanical cacaphony), I heard what sounded like speech during an instrumental portion of "Fun, Fun, Fun"(I think, think, think)...a quick rewind later and sure enough, way in the background, I could hear what may or may not be direction for the vocals to follow...never heard it before on my main system(and you aren't supposed to, I'd hazard a guess) but now that I know it's there, it's as plain as day...this track also pre-dates widespread use of 'phones on a consumer level...

You hear "rhythms and melodies"? Well, I do also...that defines "music" IMHO...the question arises then, what artist, producer and/or engineer would "hide" those bits and pieces to all but those few who can afford mega-bux amounts in playback gear?...and keep in mind, money seems to be the determining factor here.

My point is, yes, there can be things "buried" in the mix...perhaps they would be noticed in their absence...but as rhythmic and harmonic counterpoint, should they be noticed, however, as a separate entities? Which presentation is "right"?

jimHJJ(...not looking to argue the point, just providing an alternate viewpoint...)

[E-Stat]

I relate this story about a "Beach Boys" cut on a "Best of" tape...

I can relate to that phenomena. I remember a similar situation with a cassette based Walkman and in particular a guitar solo piece by Michael Hedges from Aerial Boundaries. There is a faint string harmonic struck that appears in the background twice. The first time more subtle than the last. I was first aware of that listening to headphones and later I anticipated it's arrival elsewhere. Ironically, it remains relatively louder on the Walkman since the tape is compressed.

You hear "rhythms and melodies"?

Jim, I don't know how to describe this any better. On very familiar material that I've heard a bazillion times (including with a Diskman), I continue to hear more vividly underlying rhythms when I hear certain systems other than my own. With them, it is so easy to pick apart the patterns of any one instrument amidst all the other "action". Unlike the "Walkman-memory" phenomena, I am unable to reproduce what I'm referring to with my stuff.

My point is, yes, there can be things "buried" in the mix...perhaps they would be noticed in their absence...but as rhythmic and harmonic counterpoint, should they be noticed, however, as a separate entities? Which presentation is "right"?

Again, I find this to be a matter of degrees. I'm sure Gus Holst would like for everyone to hear all the nuance and counterpoint found in the Mercury movement of The Planets. between the strings, winds, and harp. Not to mention the harmonic richness of the woodwinds and the resin-y character of strings.

rw

[Lensman]

There is a musical world beyond the capabilities of most systems. Certainly beyond mine... One that evokes the deepest emotional response from music.

I have the good fortune to have heard one such system in a home setting used by an audio reviewer friend of mine... While I enjoy my own systems, I always look forward to hearing that one again.

...My main system is pretty good by most accounts. The one to which I refer is beyond belief... but I will provide details of that one for anyone who is interested.

...diminishing returns, were the amount spent is hardly justified by perceived improvement... suffice it to say the whole "listening experience" is built on illusion and one's "perception"...

Further expenditure on stereo gear MAY provide more power, better low frequency extension, that sort of thing...then of course further expense(according to some) should be in the form of "hospital grade" AC outlets, aftermarket power cords, line conditioners, dedicated power circuits, cable bridges...but we are getting back to "perception" again...

I've always set my benchmark as live performances. Over the years I've listened to a number of systems and some have come closer than others to reaching my desired goal. But I've yet to hear an audio system+recording+acoustics treatment that could fully trick my ears into thinking I'm hearing something live. I have, however, heard a couple that came close enough to make me believe my benchmark might be achievable.

Of course these "astounding" systems were unbelievably expensive and the differences they exhibited over the merely "great" were slight indeed. So are they worth it? Well, you can debate it endlessly. But like most things in life, I think there's no absolute answer. Only an answer that's right for you. Regardless, there's no denying there are enough people who say "yes" to keep multitudes of this incredibly priced gear on the market.

Unfortunately, as Resident Loser infers, there are also those who take advantage of this and profit by selling items that do nothing more positive than improve the perception of the buyer. As for me, if I had the wealth of Bill Gates, I'm sure I'd spend a lot searching for the pure musical joy E-Stat mentions. And I might get taken in by a snake-oil salesman or two in the process despite my best attempts at avoidance. I'm compelled to think a lot of us on this forum would do the same regardless of what we may say otherwise.

With my real life job, family, mortgage, etc., there's no way I'd spend the kind of money the real, but often almost insignificant, improvements cost - if I even could. And I'm wary of everything since it's not always easy to "just try it and see." So instead I'll balance my expenses to keep my family fed, sheltered and happy, afford a few other toys and pursuits, be happy with my modest system, dream about what could be, and hope technology and research someday make it possible for me to buy it.

And on the subject of dreams, E-Stat, I for one would be most grateful for details on your friend's system. And since J*E*Cole asked, "What else can I expect?" I think he might be too.

I'm sure Gus Holst would like for everyone to hear...

Since you bring Holst up... My favorite rendition of his Planets symphony has always been by Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic. Unfortunately I find the recording less than satisfactory. What version do you prefer?

[piece-it pete]

JE,

Congrats on your happiness. One can become so... obsessed? jaded? chasing the almost unachievable goal of accurate sound reproduction that we don't realise how good our systems sound IMHO.

I'm guilty of this (Dang it!! Where's the magic? THAT doesn't sound live!! grumble grumble need new speakers grumble better tt grumble a 25 x 60 clamshaped addition!!), that probably applies to most of us, at least at one time or another. And I have only spent a fraction of many.

Then the friends come by - Wow! Man, that sounds GREAT! Do you have/can you play (maggotbrain, Ricci, Frankie Yankovic, fill in the blank)?

I was not offended.

I remember when I got my 1st pair of "good" speakers - that I would not use now - hooked up to a BOOMBOX. A decent one, but still. I was estatic!!

Blah blah blah. The Monstrous One and the Defender of the Free Universe are onto something, knowing the way music really sounds will allow you to accurately judge the sound of various components/systems when you demo them.

The biggest difference I've heard since getting decent (to me) components is: 1) quality stereo subs. Many will disagree, but to me at least, it added a astounding level of realism I had not heard previously, amazing, even my better half noticed, and 2) upgrading to a preamp and using my rec'r as an amp, in my case inexpensive pre (a Hafler DH110) yielded concrete results.

I've not had as much experience with high end stuff as many here, but that's what I've heard with my own ears so far.

Good luck!

Pete

[Kaboom]

Hey i am interested in those specs. could you post them please?

[E-Stat]

And on the subject of dreams, E-Stat, I for one would be most grateful for details on your friend's system. And since J*E*Cole asked, "What else can I expect?" I think he might be too.

Certainly. I might add that this system consists largely of components on loan to him by the various manufacturers. It completely recalibrated my perception of what an audio system can achieve and is downright spooky in it's imaging capabilities. The amount of available bass power is prodigious and would likely benefit from the use of bass traps in the room (I'm working on convincing him of that! ) Naturally, some of the componentry changes over time, but here is a relatively recent photo.

Burmester 969/970 Transport / DAC
Lector CDP
Clearaudio Master Reference
VPI Scoutmaster w/TNT motor, SDS controller and clamp
Kuzma turntable
Koetsu, Helikon, and Dynavector cartridges
Conrad-Johnson ART II preamp
Groove phono preamp
(4) ASL Hurricanes (alternately heard VTL Wotans and Edge Reference Monoblocks with Krells on bass towers)
Nola (nee Alon) Grand Exoticas
Nordost Valhalla cabling throughout

As for me, if I had the wealth of Bill Gates, I'm sure I'd spend a lot searching for the pure musical joy E-Stat mentions.

My joy is simply in being able to periodically experience this system. Just like periodically attending the symphony. If I were as wealthy as Mr. Gates, I'd purchase my own symphony!

Since you bring Holst up... My favorite rendition of his Planets symphony has always been by Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic. Unfortunately I find the recording less than satisfactory. What version do you prefer?

My heart favors the RCA Ormandy / Philadelphia recording from '76. I completely wore out the LP and recently obtained a CD from Amazon. I find the Telarc Previn / LSO version sonically superior, but I always go back to the Ormandy version.

rw

[topspeed]

Next time you're at HP's, can you teach him something about home decor? I think listening to high-end equipment all these years has warped his vision in some way .

Seriously tho, what's with the skiis under the speakers? They come with plinths, why raise them up?

[E-Stat]

Seriously tho, what's with the skiis under the speakers? They come with plinths, why raise them up?

That's a Carl Marchisotto thing. I'll ask.

rw

[Geoffcin]

My joy is simply in being able to periodically experience this system. Just like periodically attending the symphony. If I were as wealthy as Mr. Gates, I'd purchase my own symphony!

rw

Now I've got system envy!

[J*E*Cole]

So to further improve the sound, (and I admit it, I like the way audio equipment looks, especially the avant garde stuff, but it's still not as important as the sound) should I add an Amp?, and maybe what would be a good choice for this receiver (Harman/Kardon AVR130) for under $500. Is this a logical step and does it pass the "diminishing benefits" test? Also, any thoughts on an EQ? Budget $300-$400.

Thanks again for all the terrific posts and information.