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  1. #26
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    Auto EQ Problems

    It turned out to be a microphone problem.

    I got a replacement ECM 8000 and it works well - excellent!!

    Thanks again for your help.

  2. #27
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I am getting a 2496 with a EMC8000 also. It will replace the 8024....i will call you up soon Mike :-)
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    I've been experimenting with this a fair amount, and I think I finally have it down. I have to say, it is making a huge difference in my sound, and for the better. I really like this thing now that I've learned how to use it.

    However, the manual sucks. At some point, I'm going to type out step by step instructions, but here are some general tips for now. Note that this is just what I do; other people with different components, rooms, tastes, etc. may find something else works better.

    First, here's my setup: I'm taking a digital signal out of the optical Toslink output from my Squeezebox (essentially equivalent to a CD transport), and running it into the Behringer's optical input. I then take the digital Toslink optical out from the Behringer, and run it into the digital optical input of a Benchmark DAC1. I take the balanced XLR analog outs from the DAC1 and run it into my amp (Pathos Logos driving Magnepan 1.6qr speakers). So all the processing is done in the digital domain.

    1) I plugged the ECM8000 microphone into the RTA input, and place the microphone right where my head would be in the normal listening spot. I measured the distances from the tip of the mic to each of the speakers to make sure the mic was equidistant. The mic was pointed straight ahead to the spot directly between the speakers.

    2) This is crucial: I put the Behringer in dual mono mode, NOT stereo link; this lets you EQ each speaker independently. When I first got the thing, I didn't do this, and was getting some pretty crazy results. To do this, press the Utility button, scroll down to Channel Mode and change it to Dual Mono. Don't forget to press the B button to accept the change.

    3) Now hit the I/O button. Make sure on page 1 (called "Select Input") that the input is set on "Main In." I think this is the only way to EQ each speaker independently. I initially thought this had to be set to Pink Noise, but in fact you'll get pink noise automatically when you go into Auto EQ mode.

    4) Still in I/O mode, on Page 2 (called "Aux/Dig. Out"), select GEQ-PEQ. This will make sure the EQ'd sound is coming out of the Behringer.

    5) On Page 3 ("Select RTA Input"), select RTA/Mic.

    6) Now press the GEQ button. Flatten the curve, putting all frequencies on 0db. Make sure you do this for both channels, pressing the A button to switch between them.

    7) Make sure you've got the proper input sensitivity and phantom power for the microphone you're using. If you're using the ECM8000, I think the default settings should have it covered.

    8) Turn up your amp volume fairly loud, and warn your wife that a jet plane is about to land in the living room. Make sure nobody is walking around, or otherwise making noise.

    9) Hit the RTA button, and cycle through so that the Auto EQ label shows up next to the B button. Adjust the Max and Range levels so that you'll get a good window on the frequency read out. You want something narrow enough so that you can easily see differences between the frequency levels, but wide enough so that you can see all the peaks.

    10) Start the AutoEQ process. Note that you'll have to do this twice, once for each speaker. The pink noise should only be coming out of one speaker at a time. If for some reason noise is coming out of both, you need to change what you're doing.

    I like to have "Room Correction" on, which "tilts" the target frequency spectrum from flat to slightly weighted in favor of the low freqs. Just sounds better to me.

    I also didn't do any automatic correction below 100Hz. Instead, I manually adjusted them later, after the AutoEQ had flattened everything else.

    I also put the noise level at about -1db, so as to avoid clipping. Keep an eye on the level meter and make sure there's no red flashing. If there is, lower the noise level; if there isn't, raise the noise level until there is, then back off slightly.

    Note that during the AutoEQ process you can toggle between pages to compare the RTA readout with the adjustments the Behringer is automatically making to the GEQ. You can also switch between "Fast", "Med" and "Slow" to determine how fast it reacts. I like to start it at Fast, then change it to Med after a minute, then to Slow for a minute or so.

    I set the Delta Max and Span to their maximum values, and didn't have any problems. Others may have to narrow these parameters, e.g. if you've got a big problem with your room or setup somehow.

    At some point, after a few minutes, it should get to the point where the ongoing adjustments are fairly modest, and you can stop the AutoEQ then. Again, note that you have to do this twice, once for each speaker.

    After you've run the AutoEQ, go back to the I/O page and change the input to Pink Noise. Noise should be coming out of BOTH speakers now. Then go back to the RTA, and look at the spectrum. You may notice -- as I did -- that it is no longer flat, now that you have both speakers going. I had a dip right around 12khz. I went back into GEQ, and adjusted the EQ (for each channel -- so you have to switch between Left and Right, making the same changes in each), then toggled back to the RTA, back and forth, until it was fairly flat.

    Next, I manually adjusted the GEQ below 100Hz to get something fairly flat. (My speakers roll off below 40Hz, so naturally I didn't try to fix that range.) Note that again, you have to use the GEQ on both channels.

    Finally, change the input back into your music input, and do some listening. Season to taste; I generally like a little more bass than you get out of a perfectly flat response.

    That's it! Practice and experiment with the thing, and eventually it will have your setup sounding *very* sweet. The improvement is quite dramatic, in my case.

    It's definitely a good way to spend a few hundred bucks. Compared to switching out interconnects, tubes, etc, where the differences are subtle at best, this is a REALLY noticeable difference. You can hit a button to bypass it all if you like, and compare it to the unprocessed signal. BIG difference.
    I am hooking up my Behringer to my Squeezbox through a DAC. The DAC then hooks up to my receiver through regular analog cables....well not regular, they are pretty expensive.

    Anyway...Okay, I have followed all of the instructions to the letter and cannot get the auto-eq function to work properly. A little background - I have a 23X17 room with a large screen TV on one wall, surrounded by an audio rack and two Magneplan speakers. My listening position is normally about 8 feet away, right between the two speakers, so that is where I am positioning the 8000 mic. I have a very powerful receiver (270 watts per channel), so I assume the volume must be loud enough.

    When I go through the auto-eq process, at some point, it will say something to the effect "Pink noise volume not louder than ambient level". Sometimes it says that immediately...sometimes after about 30 seconds. I have pink noise coming from the speakers at ALL times, so I tried lowering the volume during the ambient measurement process and then quickly turning the volume up to get the pink noise level high enough...no matter what I do, the pink noise is not "loud enough". I have turned the pink noise all of the way up on the 2496....I have turned up the noise level all of the way. When I turn the noise level up, I do notice the red "clip" light flashes on and off. I even tried putting the mic right next to the speakers, but that did not work.

    Can you think of any other things I could try? Thanks.

  4. #29
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    low band noise

    The ambient noise which is measured under 30Hz is meaning less - it is shown also at my machine. You say it goes to half or two thirds of the scale, but it is because you have selected AUTO scale. do any true noise and low-band data will dissappear. And honestly I doubt of measuring of freq. bellow 20Hz - it is not sound but physical shaking... If you play that freq on high volume only you could hear is air pumped through bass reflex tubes.

    Anyway I failed when I first time experimented with auto correlation, but I will try again - my case is that I saved money on speakers and their response is crucialy far from flat - I did many corrections on DEQ manualy and now the sound is listenable, but I want to try your advices - thanks a lot.

  5. #30
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    KCJay.

    If you haven't already, see my posts above. I had the same problem which was solved by replacing the microphone.

    Checking response curves for Dual Mono

    To add to Mike's comments, I also used dual mono mode and auto EQ'd each speaker seperately as suggested. Then, in order to check each channels response curve separately, I disconnected one of the speakers so that the Pink Noise only came from one side (I canít see another way of doing this in RTA) and made adjustments in the GEQ and PEQ, repeating until I got each channel reasonably flat. I then added my variations to achieve the sound I wanted.

    It's a lot of work and can be frustrating but I urge everyone to see it through because the sonic rewards are special. For me, it's now the most vital piece of kit.

  6. #31
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    You shouldn't have to disconnect the speakers. When you do auto correction in dual mono mode, it should automatically send the noise through only one speaker or the other.
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  7. #32
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    Wink Behringer DEQ2496 - my approach

    I too intended to use the DEQ 2496 in digital mode only, between my squeezebox, and my PSAudio DLIII DAC, which is a honey of a unit. However, I found that even in the all-digital mode, the effect of including the Behringer was to shrink the sounstage, reduce dynamics and natural tonality of instruments - even without any eq applied. I was ready to return the unit, when I realized another approach, which is working well for me.
    Since the primary need of EQ was in the bass area anyway, I realized that I shouldn't be running the entire signal through the Behringer just to achieve that. So what I am doing is the following:
    1) Connect the coax output of the SB to the PS Audio DLIII directly, and connect the analog out to my preamp and main speakers. THis allows me to reap the full benefits of the PS Audio dac unit unsullied.
    2) Connect the Optical output of the SB to the Behringer DEQ 2496, and connect its analog outputs directly to my subwoofer.
    3) Do EQ by hand, using external pink noise (not generated by the Behringer) using a mic and metering, reflecting the combined effect of my main speakers and my sub.
    Adjust volume on the sub, on the SB, and on my Preamp, to achieve optimum balance.
    In this way I was able to achieve necessary bass EQ, without interfering with the primary tonality of the DLIII DAC. I am also able to balance between the sub and the mains via remote as there are effectively separate volume controls for each.

  8. #33
    Music / Hi-Fi enthusiast Les Adams's Avatar
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    Hi guys,

    First of all I declare that I have not used the Behringer DEQ2496, however I do have experience of Behringer products which is why I am surprised to see one of them talked about here and thought my comments may be valid.

    I am involved in the production, recording and broadcast of radio shows and I have a broadcast spec studio. Till about 4 years ago when I retired from music production, I also had my own 32 track professional recording studio.

    Behringer undobtedly make excellent value for money gear, but that in itself is a cause for concern when it comes to the sonic capabilities of their products. Their target market is semi-pro audio for both home studio and sound reinforcement use which explains why their gear generally comes in 19" rack mount form. They generally build to a price, rather than to a high quality audio standard and pack their products with loads of features. Nothing wrong with that, it's what they do very well.


    I re-iterate that I am not condemning Behringer products, merely pointing out the obvious that you are not going to get all those features and audiophile performance at that price.

    In my studio I have a Behringer MDX1400 Autocom Pro stereo compressor/limiter. It is remakable value for money and does its job well.. to a point. But compare it to my other compressor, a mono valve TLA Audio VP 5051 ($4000 new) and the difference in audio quality is immediately apparent. I use these compressors for two very different jobs. The TLA device is used to phantom power and compress the signal from the presenter's microphone, a Neumann U87 condenser that costs $3000. Here the quality of sound and compression is paramount to getting a great "intimate" vocal sound. I used the same mic and compressor to record lead vocals in the recording studio. The Behringer is used to compress / limit the stereo output to the ADSL audio feed which is compressed mp3 and is the streaming audio used for the "listen now" feature on the radio station website. Here, control of level and smoothing out peaks in the signal is the primary function as by the time the sound has been through the radio station's optimod and down a phone line to your PC, any subtleties in audio performance are lost.

    In short, you get what you pay for. The Behringer range offers loads of features and excellent value for money, but I suspect sonic performance is going to suffer because of the grade of components used in order to keep the price down.
    Last edited by Les Adams; 11-07-2007 at 03:14 AM.
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  9. #34
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Les Adams
    In short, you get what you pay for. The Behringer range offers loads of features and excellent value for money, but I suspect sonic performance is going to suffer because of the grade of components used in order to keep the price down.
    Thanks for your perspective. I am a happy owner of a Behringer third octave EQ used in the HT system on the subs only. In this application, the device works great smoothing the peaky 80 - 120 hz region in the den. Initially, it also created a ground loop problem, but I was able to fix that.

    Just for grins, however, I chose to run it full range in the vintage system. My experience was similar to that of sgoldfin - everything immediately got brighter (when set flat), lost resolution, and image shrank. No joy.

    There's nothing wrong with using $.26 NJM4580 op amps to keep the cost down - just don't expect miracles!

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  10. #35
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    Behringer DEQ2496

    Thank you very much for your tutorial. I got much better eq results following your instructions. I would also point out that the DEQ needs ample break-in. After that time, I found that its analog out is really excellent - I found it had more presence than the output of my PS Audio DLIII.It shouldn't be dismissed without testing it.

  11. #36
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    can't get pink noise out of just one channel

    Hey, nice post, thank you. Had the DEQ for about a year and a half now and abandoned the room correction because it never sounded right. I suspected I needed to do both channels individually first, but never figured out how.

    I followed your instructions several times, but can't get both speakers to not have pink noise during the AEQ measurements. I've tried everything you suggested.

    Any thoughts?

  12. #37
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    ^^^ Are you able to put the unit into Dual Mono mode?

    BTW, I've since graduate to the DEQX, a much more sophisticated (and expensive) device, so I won't be much help in working through the DEQ menus unfortunately.
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  13. #38
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    This Behringer dq is one on my, I plan to own this one some day. I get juiced when I read others experiences with it...

  14. #39
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    Got it--you're right, this thing rocks, thanks Mike!

    So I got the DEQ in dual mono no problem, I just could never get it to play pink noise through one of the speakers only. Then I got smart the next day and old-schooled it by simply unplugging the XLR out of each side of the DAC so only one speaker was fed at a time. I was running on version 1.2b of the software, and couldn't upgrade to 1.4 because I didn't own a midi connector. I went out and bought one, upgraded the software (with much swearing), but it finally worked, and now I'm "current." I have not checked to see whether that upgrade fixed my issue or not.

    You were right--if you do each side individually, the results are stunning. I haven't messed with it from what it came up with for each channel individually, and already this results are way better. I did 5db max and 4db range for fear of getting nasty results, but it's fantastic. I may let the range and max go a lot farther and see if that improves things even more. A musician friend of mine is going to come over and we're going to re-do the setup because he was one of the doubters and part of the reason I pulled it out of the system last time (but he was right--it did sound much worse last time). When I explained it to him what I did this time, we both gave each other the "well duh, dummy" look having not thought to do each speaker by itself. I still have what appears to be a little dip at 2.5K with both speakers employed, which I will try to work out with the next round of tweaks. But man, this is the real deal--greatly improves transparency and soundstage depth for me. And I have a VERY transparent system that's pushing $15K of VERY carefully selected stuff and a lot more MORE expensive stuff was here and is gone because it sounded worse. I'm sure there are many of you who have better sounding systems, but mine sounds better than many $50K setups I've heard in various places I travel, and so you can imagine that I'm nervous about dropping a $200 ebay purchase smack in the middle of all of that when it was so good to begin with. But it looks like it will get a permanent rack spot.

    Let me make one more point that would have helped me work on this problem earlier had I thought about it and used my brain a little more. I have a strange listening room. Yes, it's rectangular, but it has a window on the right side (which I keep the blind down to help mute the direct reflection), an open double doorway to a hallway on the left (therefore much less direct reflection from that speaker), and a giant opening behind me that opens up to a two-story foyer. Yes, not really an ideal dedicated listening room, I agree, but I get surprisingly good sound. I have always known that room treatments were my next investment. I'm not a sound engineer but I read enough to understand basics, and now that I'm looking at equalizer settings that have as much as a 6db swing between the two speakers at various points, now I know why it sounds better with some of those corrections, especially when done at each speaker. And again, it sounded REALLY good before.

    So am I endorsing this product? Yes, absolutely. Will I look for a better room EQ to replace it? Not likely in this economy. Now, mind you, I'm using it in the digital realm only. I already use digital volume control so my signal is messed with before it even gets to the DEQ. I'm comfortable with that--you may not be. I also don't use ANY analog sources--I'm all digital from the mac mini. I play Pandora regularly and it sounds phenomenal, so I'm not hung up on vinyl or even bit-perfect. I just want my set-up to sing and be super convenient, and this product clearly improved on what I have singing in front of me.

    For those contemplating, it's really a small investment if you have any concerns about your room. You will be able to sell it for what you paid for it if you buy one on ebay in a worse-case scenario (my bet is you won't sell it). You will need to buy the $50 mike new, as I never found one on ebay. The manual is the worst thing you will ever read and you will hate Behringer at various points of your first couple days of ownership because of that fact alone. This post was the best write-up I found on the web about using it for room correction--hence my revival of it after a year of rest for it. Mike, thank you, you are a very good man. Mike, no one seems to have written a better full manual for it, or at least it's not posted anywhere I can find it--if you know this thing does other things as well, your ability to work through those and do a much better job of explaining may help a lot of Behringers stay in folks' systems!

  15. #40
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Hi Jay, thanks for the kind words, and I'm glad it worked out for you!
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  16. #41
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    Wondering about Digital Domain

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    ^^^ Were you using the Behringer entirely in the digital domain?

    I feed a digital signal into the DEQ, process it, and take a digital signal out. No conversion to analog.

    If you're using it partly as a DAC, I can see how your results would be different.

    My DAC is a Benchmark DAC1, which is undoubtedly of much higher quality than the Behringer's.
    Hi Mike,

    I see nothings been posted on this in a while, hope you're still checking here.

    In regards to using the EQ in Digital Domain, is that the only way it's going to sound great?

    I was planning on connecting it between my preamp and amp. I have a Sony XA777ES CD, Moon P-3 preamp and Digital Amplifier Company 4800a Amp.

    Sounds like maybe I won't get what I'm looking for if connected in this manner via Xlr's.

    Don't want to bypass the Sony's DAC.

    Thanks
    Charles

  17. #42
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    When I read how difficult the system is to setup and the quality you get, it seems that Audessey is really on to something with their room correction system. You plug in the mike, and the Audessey does all the work. No special setup parimeters, no quirks, and most importantly, no extra hassels in the process.

    This seems like too much work for a automated room correction system
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  18. #43
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    Talking digital in/out setup

    Wanted to add a couple thoughts here to the instrtuctions as I found a number of things that were both a little hard to fathom and at the some time not easy to work out via the manual and available help threads.

    First, I did update the firmware to version 2.5 ... I cannot say it made a big difference in my problem but it was not hard to do so it may be worth a try.

    If you want to give it a go the following is a good link and worked well for me

    http://www.icycolors.com/nu9n/deq2496.html

    Next up was the need to setup the sync rate for the main out in order to use RTA. and auto correct. Its critical and messed me up for a couple days. Bottom line I am fiber in and fiber out to an external DAC/Pre combo. The best the older unit can do is 48 not 96. The main out will set itself to 96k and you will get nothing out in terms of pink noise when you go to calibrate.

    As it kept resetting itself it took me a while to catch on and make sure I set it saved it and then moved on to RTA.

    Thought it might help someone as it drove me a bit nuts.

  19. #44
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    I can't really comment on the quality of the ADC/DAC as I now only use the digital portion of the Behringer DEQ2496 but when I did use it when I played vinyl I found the sound enjoyable. In addition the ADC/DAC in the Behringer DCX seems to be highly thought of, as the maker of VMPS speakers uses this for digital crossovers.

    I recently moved my system to another room and so had to go through the whole process again. However in addition to Mike's routine, I used the RTA and warble tones from a CD to equalise the frequencies below 100Hz.

    Once I had a flat curve for both speakers independently, I played pink noise through both speakers and measured the result through the RTA. What was particularly noticeable on the first test was a 9dB dip at 5kHz and surrounding frequencies, yet on individual speaker measurements, this area was flat. Eventually I found that a 5dB boost on both speakers at 5kHz using a 7/3 octave band did the job. I've no idea why this dip appeared as I changed nothing else (you can adjust the frequencies of both speakers at the same time when in GEQ and holding the 'A' button for a short time until both speakers are highlighted and the readings for both appear on the graph).

    I then added the various suggestions to get a likeable sound.

    Mike, I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the DEQX and if it is worth the extra money. It's something I've considered. Indeed a supplier here in the UK can hire them out for a week or so to see what people make of it.

  20. #45
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hipper
    ....

    Mike, I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the DEQX and if it is worth the extra money. It's something I've considered. Indeed a supplier here in the UK can hire them out for a week or so to see what people make of it.
    It would be nice to hear from Mike who as been MIA for a long time.

  21. #46
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    Resurrecting this thread!!!

    I haven't been on this forum for a while but I did just pick up a DEQ2496. I haven't gone through the setup process yet but after reading the manual, then this thread, then the manual with this thread, then the link provided to the icycolors website I'm a bit confused!

    I want to use this unit to iron out my system's frequency response. I was under the impression that all I would have to do was run the AutoEQ function with RTA and the ECM8000 mic, perhaps running through from a few locations within the room, and be done with it.

    Mike's (who has since moved on apparently) instructions say to run through the GEQ/PEQ settings and make initial changes before running AUTO EQ?

    The icycolors link seems to indicate that several adjustments need to be made to the unit before doing anything else in order to get it to output a proper signal from the get-go?

    My system is simple: AIFF files played through iTunes on and iMac that's connected via optical to the Behringer which is connected via optical to a Benchmark DAC1 which is connected to a pair of Dynaudio BM5AmkII active monitors via balanced XLRs. This is a nearfield setup in a small room (11'x10'x9')

    Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  22. #47
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    Resurrecting this thread!!!

    I haven't been on this forum for a while but I did just pick up a DEQ2496. I haven't gone through the setup process yet but after reading the manual, then this thread, then the manual with this thread, then the link provided to the icycolors website I'm a bit confused!

    I want to use this unit to iron out my system's frequency response. I was under the impression that all I would have to do was run the AutoEQ function with RTA and the ECM8000 mic, perhaps running through from a few locations within the room, and be done with it.

    Mike's (who has since moved on apparently) instructions say to run through the GEQ/PEQ settings and make initial changes before running AUTO EQ?

    The icycolors link seems to indicate that several adjustments need to be made to the unit before doing anything else in order to get it to output a proper signal from the get-go?

    My system is simple: AIFF files played through iTunes on and iMac that's connected via optical to the Behringer which is connected via optical to a Benchmark DAC1 which is connected to a pair of Dynaudio BM5AmkII active monitors via balanced XLRs. This is a nearfield setup in a small room (11'x10'x9')

    Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  23. #48
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    Hello Bill.

    I hope this is not too late.

    I bought my Behringer DEQ2496 in 2004 and have software version 1.4. As far as I can tell from the icycolors site there doesn't seem to be a great deal of difference between this and the 2.5 version.

    Anyway, your question was about setting up the DYN pages as described by icycolors. This is new to me and I've never done it. I only worked with the GEQ and PEQ but none of the other options.

    You will get good results that way. I may investigate this DYN suggestion but I'm not worried about it and at the moment anyway, I don't understand it.

    I would suggest that, as you are using a nearfield set-up, as I am, you put the microphone exactly where your ears will be. I just pointed it straight ahead.

  24. #49
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    Nov 2003
    Location
    Chester County, PA
    Posts
    206
    Thanks Hipper! I haven't had as much time lately to fiddle with it but after running through the process a couple of times and consulting this thread and the manual I think I've gotten a handle on it.

    I'm sure once the hot humid weather sets in and I search out some air conditioning I'll mess with it more.

    Bill

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