Some interesting reads

[Feanor]

OK Ajani, there are a few quotes I could have used, just happened to pick yours. From my experience, I'll have to disagree with you from what I hear in my Integra amps. From what you are saying, maybe it is not so in all lines? The amps in Integras line from the 80's might not be the quality you are referring to but are all rated at less than .003 THD. If rated at the same THD, when using the same speakers with the meters showing output at 10 watts which is well below capacity on both amps, why does the M-508 (200 watts) sound cleaner with more detail than the M-504 (165 watts)? Both use the exact same chasis/same layout just everything is bigger in the M-508. Is it transformer/capacitor size?

I've been observing component manufacturers', (mostly Japanese), for 35+ years. Their standard approach has been to build a product range of receivers, (amps, or whatever), at various price points.

At each higher price point they typically upgrade several things, that is not just features and power, but also design sophistication and component quality/capacity -- thus it isn't at all surprising the sound quality improves as you go up the product range.

[RGA]

Several years ago I auditioned some sort of tube amp with meters (I forget the brand) but it was running at 12 watts in the peaks and hovering at 1-5 watts at very loud levels on Monitor Audio loudspeakers.

IBSTORMIN

"why does the M-508 (200 watts) sound cleaner with more detail than the M-504 (165 watts)?"

Depends at what volume. If this is happening at medium volumes where both amps are operating without huffing and puffing you have answered your own question and watts is not the reason why it sounds better but some other reason, better quality parts.

People refuse to acknowledge that parts quality is important but they are. Better wiring, better capacitors, a better transformer shield, better power supply, better volume pot. If all things are equal the watts don't matter.

Consider this: a 3db gain(which is barely audible and only audible at the highest end of the volume spectrum) in spl requires a doubling of the amp power. In other words a 100 watt amp will give you a 3db gain over a 50 watt amp (with the same speakers). That's all - That's all that watt rating does.

I had a Pioneer receiver around $400 and a top of the line Pioneer Elite Receiver. The Latter if you read the spec sheet would make the engineers at Bryston proud. 125Watts RMS continuous 20hz-20,000Khz .00025%THD all discrete amplifier with copper underbelly and the sexy rosewood side panels. Brought home a Bryston hooked it up and it was so shocking an improvement that the Pioneer despite better specs and more watts was up for sale shortly thereafter. The Pioneer Elite though was a lot better than the cheapie receiver I had replace it with. And I was using Wharfedale Vanguard horn Ring Dac speakers which were 95db sensitive and didn't dip much under 10 ohms - they don't get much easier to drive. In theory both receivers and the Bryston had impeccable distortion numbers and all three had more than enough power - the first receiver was rated at 100 watts.

My OTO at a mere 10 watts not even half way up will make you leave the room in pain from the volume level. The fact is we just don't use that many watts - even on modest 87-90db speakers. Where "some" low power amps have difficulty is in the varying impedance of speakers - amps with better power supplies are better able to handle these things.

Your Integra example is similar to the Pioneer and Marantz and Denon models I've tried. And so it should be - you buy a higher model it bloody well should sound better and just in case it doesn't they give you more features (usually useless ones) a better remote control, and of course a big sticker advertising a higher watt rating. After all the target market for receivers is typically big box chains where consumers really don't know much. Higher numbers is always better they think so one sticker says 400 watts and the other says 80 so guess which one they will buy?

Sadly some of these same people get into higher end audio but they still bring that mentality with them and equate size and watt numbers with quality of sound when really the very best case scenario they'll get a gain in volume levels at levels that are damaging to the hearing anyway. If it's all about volume buy boom car.

[IBSTORMIN]

Another possibility (considering the age of the amps) is simply that one or both are no longer working at their best (so they could have sounded the same back in the 80s, but have deteriorated enough to sound different)...

By the way, the Integra I am referring to is Onkyo Integra.

I have three, well....two now because I just sold one, M-504's and they all sound the same. Dual mono 50 lb chasis with low distortion. I was going to ask what design these are but if no-one has heard of them, Oh Well. The M-504 sold for $870 in the 80's and sells for $500 used on E-bay now. The 508 was $1200, is more rare and the last one went for $985. I'd like to talk to someone who has compared these to what you guys are talking about so I know if I am wasting my time lusting over other equipment of if I should go ahead and lust.

I guess, after reading what Feanor said, it isn't just about power, the bigger amps can sound better. Going up in power in some lines DOES upgrade the sound. Might be what those Maggie people have experienced when they say it takes alot of power to make them sound their best. It is not just a more powerful amp but a better built one.

[IBSTORMIN]

Depends at what volume. If this is happening at medium volumes where both amps are operating without huffing and puffing you have answered your own question and watts is not the reason why it sounds better but some other reason, better quality parts.

That's why I spoke of them both showing 10 watts output when I compared the sound.

Consider this: a 3db gain(which is barely audible and only audible at the highest end of the volume spectrum) in spl requires a doubling of the amp power. In other words a 100 watt amp will give you a 3db gain over a 50 watt amp (with the same speakers). That's all - That's all that watt rating does.

I get a 4db gain just by using a balanced XLR connection instead of RCA with my M-588F.

I had a Pioneer receiver around $400 and a top of the line Pioneer Elite Receiver. The Latter if you read the spec sheet would make the engineers at Bryston proud. 125Watts RMS continuous 20hz-20,000Khz .00025%THD all discrete amplifier with copper underbelly and the sexy rosewood side panels. Brought home a Bryston hooked it up and it was so shocking an improvement that the Pioneer despite better specs and more watts was up for sale shortly thereafter. The Pioneer Elite though was a lot better than the cheapie receiver I had replace it with. And I was using Wharfedale Vanguard horn Ring Dac speakers which were 95db sensitive and didn't dip much under 10 ohms - they don't get much easier to drive. In theory both receivers and the Bryston had impeccable distortion numbers and all three had more than enough power - the first receiver was rated at 100 watts.
My OTO at a mere 10 watts not even half way up will make you leave the room in pain from the volume level. The fact is we just don't use that many watts - even on modest 87-90db speakers. Where "some" low power amps have difficulty is in the varying impedance of speakers - amps with better power supplies are better able to handle these things.

Is part of the difference high current designs?

[RGA]

High current is a marketing term - some of the best sounding amps are not high current - in fact I'd go one further and say if it says High Current then it's best avoided because it's marketing and if they need to do that on their box then they're afraid of just letting you listen with your own ears.

You and others are making a good point if you stay "within" the line. Generally when you move up any amplifier line (Solid State anyway) the sound quality will improve - again if the quality of sound improves then it will be clearer at louder levels but it's not the watt number doing that for reasons I've already stated.

And of course it does not explain it when you go across company lines like a Sugden A21a which is arguably the best sounding Solid State amplifier under $5,000 with a mere 25 watts and "halves" that at 4ohms (ie; not high current).

Maybe this article will help clear it up a bit http://www.1388.com/articles/sugden/index.html

[IBSTORMIN]

High current is a marketing term - some of the best sounding amps are not high current - in fact I'd go one further and say if it says High Current then it's best avoided because it's marketing and if they need to do that on their box then they're afraid of just letting you listen with your own ears.

I always thought HIGH CURRENT is the reason Onkyo, H/K, Marantz, Denon and the like have more power than a Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood and the like with the same wattage rating. Somthing about them running at 30-40 amps instead of only around 10 so a 100 watt high current amp can achieve more volume than a 100 watt low current amp. I think I read it in H/K literature. And you are right, not the best sounding amps but mid-fi instead of budget.

[IBSTORMIN]

I get a 4db gain just by using a balanced XLR connection instead of RCA with my M-588F.

YES, I am quoting myself and NO, I'm not going crazy. Been that way a long time now.

This just made me think that it's not totally about power but design. If I can change the way the signal flows from my pre-amp to my power amp and get a 4db gain with balanced cables, the amps you are describing have changed the flow INSIDE the amp to get more volume with less power. YES???

[nightflier]

Power has nothing to do with sound quality - it may very well be the case that the Receiver's high models required a better transformer in order to meet the higher watt rating. In which case it was not the higher power in itself but an improved transformer, or better shielding or lowered noise floors.

There are a number of dissenting opinions on this. One such opinion is from John Ulrich at Spectron. I don't remember the exact article he published on this, but if I remember right, he made a very good case about sound quality being very much a function of an amp's power output.

In my personal experience, especially with the MMGs (& yes I know that's Magnepan's lowest model), I got noticeably better sound with my Spectron and PS Audio amps than with lower-powered amps. The PS Audio (GCA-250) was actually less impressive. I also had a pair of PSA Classic 250 monos on hand, but the Spectron still sounded more controlled and precise on dynamic swings. Is that because of the Spectron's extra power? Perhaps. Or was it because it is (was) a more expensive amp? Perhaps. Or was it because digital switching is a better technology? Perhaps.

I'm also not discounting the current-output argument, which I think I agree with. And higher up the model/price ladder, the current output (whether advertised of not), makes an audible difference in dynamics, particularly when listening to orchestral music with sudden and wide dynamic changes (Mahler, Khachaturian, Hovhaness, etc.). The Spectron amp in particularly is adept at handling this, but I am still wondering if it is because the amp has better power storage capacity or more efficient and faster power output capacity. I'm no engineer so I can't answer those questions, but from reading Spectron's website, it's because the technology is simply better. Of course, that's their own propaganda.

Consequently, Ulrich's article suggested that especially when handling inefficient speaker loads, it becomes technically very complicated to design an amp using tube or solid state amplification that can keep up. His argument is that the only solution to driving large electrostats and similarly power-hungry speakers is digital switching. While I don't have the experience with enough gear to agree or disagree, the logic behind that does make sense. Even Bryston's big guns must (1) draw a tremendous amount of power, (2) be able to store that internally, and (3) be capable of delivering that power very fast and efficiently. This has to be both expensive and complicated, but also will produce tremendous heat. What if more power is needed? Double up on these, I suppose, but at some point diminishing returns demand different technology.

Again, I have very limited experience with inefficient speakers and high-powered amps, but I can say, without reservation that my 500W Spectron amp has yet to be matched, and I've tried a ton of others. Given that this amp was once an expensive amp as well, I have to imagine that it was very well designed as well. A new Spectron amp should be worth the expense, theoretically. For example, their Premiere 7 can output 500W into seven isolated channels, that's 3500 watts! Into 2 ohms it can deliver 1100 into 7, or 7700 total watts. Pretty soon, you're talking about real power, LOL. So is that worth $8K? Well, are the alternatives less expensive? And if so, can they do this with the same specs while staying cool as a cucumber? One things I can say is that PS Audio (I've auditioned many of their amps) doesn't seem to do that, and they are the largest seller of digital switching amps, I believe. Don't get me wrong, they are good, but just not as good sounding to my ears.

[Feanor]

YES, I am quoting myself and NO, I'm not going crazy. Been that way a long time now.

This just made me think that it's not totally about power but design. If I can change the way the signal flows from my pre-amp to my power amp and get a 4db gain with balanced cables, the amps you are describing have changed the flow INSIDE the amp to get more volume with less power. YES???

In fact if you feed a fully balanced amp a balanced signal you will get 6 dB extra gain vs. a single-end input. However gain should not be confused with power. The amp will not be able to deliver any more power than before, the limitation being the power supply.

[RGA]

Nightflier

Well without seeing the article I can't say but in 20 years the best amps IME have been low powered Single Ended designs and for the same money in virtually every instance sound better than high powered SS units at 2, 5, 10,times their price. I am talking my subjective listening experience and articles from manufaturers magazines and audio engineers are about that contradict the findings of other magazines audio engineers etc. UHF magazine for example wrote a book and in their amp section recommended AGAINST owning amplifiers with a damping factor above 40 sighting poor sound regardless of technology.

Power is power regardless of technology. An amplifier's job is to make a small signal it gets into a louder version without loss. You could creat a 500Watt SET amplifier if you wished iof cost, size, and heat were not an issue - and you would get the same volume level of a 500 watt SS amp.

If Spectron was correct then all higher watt SS amps would sound better than 1.5 watt SETs and since the vast majority of all 1.5 Watt SET owners sold high watt SS amps then clearly that is not the case. And the Vast majority of people who own high watt SS amps have yet to hear good Low power SETs. Most people have never even heard a tube amp. And being a Push Pull tube amp does not really sound the same as an SE.

For example my amp comes in a more powerful PP design but the SE design is the one that has won the day - it simply sounds a lot better.

Again I won't disagree with any of the omments about driving LE speakers - it makes sense that more powerful amplifiers would sound better with those speakers. I just see no need for LE apeakers since the only thing they do is lessen your choice of amplifier and they bring no advantages to the table whatsoever.

[IBSTORMIN]

In fact if you feed a fully balanced amp a balanced signal you will get 6 dB extra gain vs. a single-end input. However gain should not be confused with power. The amp will not be able to deliver any more power than before, the limitation being the power supply.

If you get more volume with the same power, you don't need more power. RGA said it takes twice as much power to get a 3db gain. So are you saying a 50 watt balanced configuration pre-amp/amp with a 6db gain will give the Speaker Volume of a 200 watt single end input?
50 watts x 2 = 100 watts for a 3db gain, 100 watts x 2 = 200 watts for another 3db gain.

[blackraven]

There are some speakers that benefit from a high current design. Magnepans are one of them. High current and high power do make them sound better. Try turning the volume up and see how fast the Magnepans shut down an underpowered amp.

[Feanor]

If you get more volume with the same power, you don't need more power. RGA said it takes twice as much power to get a 3db gain. So are you saying a 50 watt balanced configuration pre-amp/amp with a 6db gain will give the Speaker Volume of a 200 watt single end input?
50 watts x 2 = 100 watts for a 3db gain, 100 watts x 2 = 200 watts for another 3db gain.

'Stormin, sorry, it that's exactly what I'm not saying. 6 dB extra gain is like cranking you volume control from 12 o'clock to 2 PM, but it doesn't increase the overall power the amp can deliver -- that will still be limited to 100 wpc or whatever the specification. Power is limited by current the power supply can deliver and how much of that output section can handle, not by the gain, (i.e. input voltage), applied. Downstream, speakers don't know about gain: they only know about the power they're getting.

[emaidel]

There are some speakers that benefit from a high current design. Magnepans are one of them. High current and high power do make them sound better. Try turning the volume up and see how fast the Magnepans shut down an underpowered amp.

I have to agree completely. It wasn't until I used a high-current design amp with my Dahlquist DQ-10's that they opened up and sounded as good as they do. The first was the short-lived dbx mega-amp, the BX-1, whose design was, according to dbx engineers, purposely high current. While the amp was troublesome, and eventually died, the DQ-10's never sounded better.

My current amp is the high current Adcom GFA-5800 which works splendidly with the DQ-10's, and even better than the dbx BX-1. It'll be a sad day in my household when the 5800 passes on.

[nightflier]

My current amp is the high current Adcom GFA-5800 which works splendidly with the DQ-10's, and even better than the dbx BX-1. It'll be a sad day in my household when the 5800 passes on.

No argument here. Having owned a number of Adcom amps, I can say unequivocally that it really takes an act of god to humble or hurt them. Best bang-for-the-buck on the used market, too.

By the way, here is the article I was referring to. It was actually not written by Ulrich, but by Simon Thacher, when he was still at Spectron:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...708/index.html

[RGA]

If you get more volume with the same power, you don't need more power. RGA said it takes twice as much power to get a 3db gain. So are you saying a 50 watt balanced configuration pre-amp/amp with a 6db gain will give the Speaker Volume of a 200 watt single end input?
50 watts x 2 = 100 watts for a 3db gain, 100 watts x 2 = 200 watts for another 3db gain.

I think you're mixing up preamp gain and what I said about increased volume.

Let's break it down. Say you have a 50 watt amp and your friend has a 100 watt amp. And you are both using the same 90db senstivie speaker.

1Watt = 90db (90db is considered loud and most people listen to their stereo at 65-75db so most of the time neither of you is even using 1 watt of your amps power. (that is why they sell 1.5 watt amps because even on these speakers you won't be pushing the amp).

But let's say your speaker has impedence dip and you do like to play loud and you sit further back needing more volume to pass over a larger distance. SPL is lower the further you are from the seakers after all.

2watt - 93dB
4watt - 95db
8watt - 98db
16watt - 101db
32watt - 104db
64watt - 107db (now the first amp is beyond it's limit so with those speakers you are likely going to get around 105db SPL maximim)
128watts 110db (your friend's 100 watt amp is beyond limit so you might get 108-109db max)

Now lets say your other friend spends bazllions of dollars and brings his 300 watt krell
254watts - 113db
508watts - 116db (Friend might get to 115db which his big tough amp) But UMM how many speakers do you know of can even handle 500 watts - whatever the speaker is rated for is it. Most speakers can handle 250 watts or less (usually a lot less) so in fact while the amp is willing the speaker is not. So you're likely going to get a mere 112db which is still louder than any sane person could want.
1016watts - 119db

105db is deafening and will seem like rock concert level in your home. If the speakers have good bass output your windows will rattle. The 100 watt amp guy gives you and extra 3db of SPL which is barely if at noticed. The 300 watt guy will be noticed but:

Let's say RGA brings his 10 watt and a set of 110db sensitve Horns
1 watt - 110db - already louder than either the 50 watt and 100 watt guy's stereo.
2 watt - 113db - louder in all likelyhood to the vast majority of LE speakers
4watt - 116db - (a hair louder than the 300 watt stereo owner's theoretical number if you could find speakers that could handle 300 watts) with the typical 90db speakers - unlikely
8 watt - 119db - Wins.
16watts - 122db So my amp with those speakers will pound the snot out of the 300 watt "typical" 90 db speaker owner.

But again all of this is fun with numbers - 80db is pretty darn loud - 90db is LOUD.

Where High Current comes in is when the speaker dips to 4ohms from 8ohms the speaker essentially requires double the watts to achieve the frequency (usually bass or upper treble) so if in the example above my 8 watt amp is playing at a whopping 119dbspl and the speaker halves the impedence at 30hz the speaker will ask for 16watts but my amp is only 8 so audible distortion will begin because the amp is pushed beyond limits. Tube amps however have a far nicer way of distorting and low powered amps like SETs are far less likely to cause speaker damage because they can't feed more distorted power than they have to the tweeter or woofer voice coils. SS amps running in distortion and you'll need new speakers and possibly a new amp.

All of the above is at a distance of one meter wth even load behaviour to make it simpler. At distance and varying loud the numbers change depending on the designs of the loudspeakers.

My speakers are 93db sensitive but don't dip under 5ohms. I have a 4ohm tap so this is a dead easy speaker for my amp to work with and no worry over impedance drops.
1 watt - 93db
2watt - 96db
4watt - 99db
8watt - 101db
16watt - 104db (My tube amp is rated at 10 watts but the speaker amp combo for whatever reason only the makers know achieve this SPL)
32 watts - 108db (which is max for the speaker before it compresses)
64watts - 111db
128watts - 114db (The speaker is only capable of handling 80 watts so in theory 112db is it)

dB guide

Source of sound

Krakatoa explosion at 100 miles (160 km) in air = 180 dB

Simple open-ended thermoacoustic device [6] = 176 dB

M1 Garand being fired at 1 m = 168 dB

Jet engine at 30 m = 150 dB

Rifle being fired at 1 m = 140 dB

Threshold of pain = 130 dB
Hearing damage (due to short-term exposure) approx. 120 dB

Jet at 100 m = 110 – 140 dB

Jack hammer at 1 m = 100 dB
Hearing damage (due to long-term exposure) approx. 85 dB

Major road at 10 m = 80 – 90 dB

Passenger car at 10 m = 60 – 80 dB
TV (set at home level) at 1 m = approx. 60 dB
Normal talking at 1 m = 40 – 60 dB
Very calm room = 20 – 30 dB
Leaves rustling, calm breathing = 10 dB

Auditory threshold at 1 kHz =0 dB

[IBSTORMIN]

'Stormin, sorry, it that's exactly what I'm not saying. 6 dB extra gain is like cranking you volume control from 12 o'clock to 2 PM, but it doesn't increase the overall power the amp can deliver -- that will still be limited to 100 wpc or whatever the specification. Power is limited by current the power supply can deliver and how much of that output section can handle, not by the gain, (i.e. input voltage), applied. Downstream, speakers don't know about gain: they only know about the power they're getting.

OK. I switch cables and get a 6db louder output from my speakers as if I turned up the volume without turning up the volume = I don't have to buy a more powerful amp to achive the sound level I can now get. Is my correlation of 4 times the power EQUIVALENT what you are not agreeing with?

[Ajani]

OK. I switch cables and get a 6db louder output from my speakers as if I turned up the volume without turning up the volume = I don't have to buy a more powerful amp to achive the sound level I can now get. Is my correlation of 4 times the power EQUIVALENT what you are not agreeing with?

Gain is different from Power.... Essentially the 6 DB gain just means that the volume is set to say 11 rather than 9 with the balanced connections, but the maximum volume on either RCA or Balanced is still 24.... so you haven't achieved 4 times the power (you have the same power but have basically just pressed the volume up button on the remote).... The only way gain would increase power is if the RCA outputs are unable to provide sufficient gain to drive the amp to it's maximum power output.... in that unlikely scenario, RCA would never let you reach the maximum volume of 24 (so maybe 22), while RCA would let you hit the max 24....

[Feanor]

OK. I switch cables and get a 6db louder output from my speakers as if I turned up the volume without turning up the volume = I don't have to buy a more powerful amp to achive the sound level I can now get. Is my correlation of 4 times the power EQUIVALENT what you are not agreeing with?

To be sure, if you provide 6dB more gain, you amp will try to deliver 4x the power. No disagreement here. I am (or was) concerned that you were misunderstanding; as RGA said ...

I think you're mixing up preamp gain and what I said about increased volume.

With the extra 6dB your amp will attempt put out 4x the power, but if that is beyond its capability, it will clip. Extra gain does not increase the maximum power your amp is capable of outputing.

Do we agree now?

[IBSTORMIN]

Do we agree now?

I was slightly confused but showed myself with your guys help, where my thinking went wrong. My amp has big meters on the front that show output. I thought when I switched from RCA to XLR that the wattage stayed the same and the same wattage was making my speakers louder by 6db. Maybe too low on the scale to see. I set it to peak at 1 watt and when I switched over to XLR it was peaking at between 3-4 watts. My 4 times as much theory seems right but I realize with it's using more power it will run outa steam. It IS a 200 watt amp so I'd deafen myself first. I stand corrected (actually I'm sitting down so I sit corrected). Thanks for your help! You guys are educating me in things I have wanted to know for a long time. I apreciate it!

Norm

[IBSTORMIN]

I think you're mixing up preamp gain and what I said about increased volume.

Let's break it down. Say you have a 50 watt amp and your friend has a 100 watt amp. And you are both using the same 90db senstivie speaker.

1Watt = 90db (90db is considered loud and most people listen to their stereo at 65-75db so most of the time neither of you is even using 1 watt of your amps power. (that is why they sell 1.5 watt amps because even on these speakers you won't be pushing the amp).

But let's say your speaker has impedence dip and you do like to play loud and you sit further back needing more volume to pass over a larger distance. SPL is lower the further you are from the seakers after all.

2watt - 93dB
4watt - 95db
8watt - 98db
16watt - 101db
32watt - 104db
64watt - 107db (now the first amp is beyond it's limit so with those speakers you are likely going to get around 105db SPL maximim)
128watts 110db (your friend's 100 watt amp is beyond limit so you might get 108-109db max)

For scrolling purposes in the forum, I did not copy the whole post.

RGA - KEEP IT UP! I like the education. Thanks. So you start with what your speaker is rated spl @ 1 Watt. My speaker owners manual says:
Sensitivity: 96dB @ 2.83 V and 1 m(anechoic conditions). What exactly does that mean?

[IBSTORMIN]

There are two of the Musical Fidelity X-10v3 on E-bay right now and I was going to buy one. Last night I sat down just to listen for the first time in a long time. I just bought some new XLR cables from Blue Jeans with Belden wire instead of the Canares I had been using. Something has been wrong and I did not get the totally relaxed feeling I used to get while listening as I have a stressful job, other things besides my job so I'm just too busy. Music is my therapy and last night, for the first time in a long time I got totally relaxed and REALLY ENJOYED my music. It sounded WONDERFUL. It might just be that I have been too busy and have not had a chance to do that for awhile but, I decided I am happy with what I have and am not going to buy the buffer. I think it will take away the clearer highs I was enjoying last night that the new cables gave me. The $55 fix! Thanks again for your help.

[Feanor]

... Something has been wrong and I did not get the totally relaxed feeling I used to get while listening as I have a stressful job, other things besides my job so I'm just too busy. Music is my therapy and last night, for the first time in a long time I got totally relaxed and REALLY ENJOYED my music. It sounded WONDERFUL. It might just be that I have been too busy and have not had a chance to do that for awhile
...

I find my mode has significant impact on how good the music sounds (in addition to how much I enjoy it). If I'm stressed and tired it never sounds as good. It makes me question how accurate my appraisals are at any given time.

How big a factor in sound quality is personal mode with other AR members??

[blackraven]

One comment I'd like to make about power concerning Magnepan speakers. I ran my 1.6's with my Adcom AVR which puts out 260wpc of high current power at 4ohms. It was plenty to drive my Maggies reasonably loud. But when I switched to my Parasound which is 400wpc at 4 ohms the Maggies had a fuller sound at all but the lowest listening levels. I used to drive the 1.6's with a 120wpc high current amp and jumping up to the Adcom and then the Parasound, I noticed a difference in the depth of the music with each jump in power. In addition, I have put my 2 previous amps in shutdown protection mode and I have yet to have that happen with my Parasound.

[IBSTORMIN]

One comment I'd like to make about power concerning Magnepan speakers. I ran my 1.6's with my Adcom AVR which puts out 260wpc of high current power at 4ohms. It was plenty to drive my Maggies reasonably loud. But when I switched to my Parasound which is 400wpc at 4 ohms the Maggies had a fuller sound at all but the lowest listening levels. I used to drive the 1.6's with a 120wpc high current amp and jumping up to the Adcom and then the Parasound, I noticed a difference in the depth of the music with each jump in power. In addition, I have put my 2 previous amps in shutdown protection mode and I have yet to have that happen with my Parasound.

Just makes me ask again....is it power or quality on the bigger amps? I notice the same difference on my Infinity speakers so it isn't just a Maggie thing. I hear Maggies are all about clarity on mids & highs, which also seems to come alive in my speakers as I upgrade, it is probably just more apparent in Maggies. Just makes me ask - Is there a point where the Maggies seem too bright, no warmth?