Some interesting reads

[IBSTORMIN]

Yep... I was a tad lazy in my earlier explanations & I probably should have added that: If the low powered amp is fully up to the task of driving a particular pair of speakers, then you shouldn't hear any difference by adding more power....

OK Ajani, there are a few quotes I could have used, just happened to pick yours. From my experience, I'll have to disagree with you from what I hear in my Integra amps. From what you are saying, maybe it is not so in all lines? The amps in Integras line from the 80's might not be the quality you are referring to but are all rated at less than .003 THD. If rated at the same THD, when using the same speakers with the meters showing output at 10 watts which is well below capacity on both amps, why does the M-508 (200 watts) sound cleaner with more detail than the M-504 (165 watts)? Both use the exact same chasis/same layout just everything is bigger in the M-508. Is it transformer/capacitor size?

[Ajani]

OK Ajani, there are a few quotes I could have used, just happened to pick yours. From my experience, I'll have to disagree with you from what I hear in my Integra amps. From what you are saying, maybe it is not so in all lines? The amps in Integras line from the 80's might not be the quality you are referring to but are all rated at less than .003 THD. If rated at the same THD, when using the same speakers with the meters showing output at 10 watts which is well below capacity on both amps, why does the M-508 (200 watts) sound cleaner with more detail than the M-504 (165 watts)? Both use the exact same chasis/same layout just everything is bigger in the M-508. Is it transformer/capacitor size?

I'm not familiar with the Integra amps (though I tried to do some brief research on Google).... If both amps are using only 10 watts and they still sound different, then my first guess would be that they don't have exactly the same (or same quality) internal components... i.e. The M-508 is probably more than just an M-504 with an extra 35 watts of power.... Another possibility (considering the age of the amps) is simply that one or both are no longer working at their best (so they could have sounded the same back in the 80s, but have deteriorated enough to sound different)...

Keep in mind that having the same chassis, layout and THD does not guarantee that all the internal components are the same...

[RGA]

Several years ago I auditioned some sort of tube amp with meters (I forget the brand) but it was running at 12 watts in the peaks and hovering at 1-5 watts at very loud levels on Monitor Audio loudspeakers.

IBSTORMIN

"why does the M-508 (200 watts) sound cleaner with more detail than the M-504 (165 watts)?"

Depends at what volume. If this is happening at medium volumes where both amps are operating without huffing and puffing you have answered your own question and watts is not the reason why it sounds better but some other reason, better quality parts.

People refuse to acknowledge that parts quality is important but they are. Better wiring, better capacitors, a better transformer shield, better power supply, better volume pot. If all things are equal the watts don't matter.

Consider this: a 3db gain(which is barely audible and only audible at the highest end of the volume spectrum) in spl requires a doubling of the amp power. In other words a 100 watt amp will give you a 3db gain over a 50 watt amp (with the same speakers). That's all - That's all that watt rating does.

I had a Pioneer receiver around $400 and a top of the line Pioneer Elite Receiver. The Latter if you read the spec sheet would make the engineers at Bryston proud. 125Watts RMS continuous 20hz-20,000Khz .00025%THD all discrete amplifier with copper underbelly and the sexy rosewood side panels. Brought home a Bryston hooked it up and it was so shocking an improvement that the Pioneer despite better specs and more watts was up for sale shortly thereafter. The Pioneer Elite though was a lot better than the cheapie receiver I had replace it with. And I was using Wharfedale Vanguard horn Ring Dac speakers which were 95db sensitive and didn't dip much under 10 ohms - they don't get much easier to drive. In theory both receivers and the Bryston had impeccable distortion numbers and all three had more than enough power - the first receiver was rated at 100 watts.

My OTO at a mere 10 watts not even half way up will make you leave the room in pain from the volume level. The fact is we just don't use that many watts - even on modest 87-90db speakers. Where "some" low power amps have difficulty is in the varying impedance of speakers - amps with better power supplies are better able to handle these things.

Your Integra example is similar to the Pioneer and Marantz and Denon models I've tried. And so it should be - you buy a higher model it bloody well should sound better and just in case it doesn't they give you more features (usually useless ones) a better remote control, and of course a big sticker advertising a higher watt rating. After all the target market for receivers is typically big box chains where consumers really don't know much. Higher numbers is always better they think so one sticker says 400 watts and the other says 80 so guess which one they will buy?

Sadly some of these same people get into higher end audio but they still bring that mentality with them and equate size and watt numbers with quality of sound when really the very best case scenario they'll get a gain in volume levels at levels that are damaging to the hearing anyway. If it's all about volume buy boom car.

[IBSTORMIN]

Depends at what volume. If this is happening at medium volumes where both amps are operating without huffing and puffing you have answered your own question and watts is not the reason why it sounds better but some other reason, better quality parts.

That's why I spoke of them both showing 10 watts output when I compared the sound.

Consider this: a 3db gain(which is barely audible and only audible at the highest end of the volume spectrum) in spl requires a doubling of the amp power. In other words a 100 watt amp will give you a 3db gain over a 50 watt amp (with the same speakers). That's all - That's all that watt rating does.

I get a 4db gain just by using a balanced XLR connection instead of RCA with my M-588F.

I had a Pioneer receiver around $400 and a top of the line Pioneer Elite Receiver. The Latter if you read the spec sheet would make the engineers at Bryston proud. 125Watts RMS continuous 20hz-20,000Khz .00025%THD all discrete amplifier with copper underbelly and the sexy rosewood side panels. Brought home a Bryston hooked it up and it was so shocking an improvement that the Pioneer despite better specs and more watts was up for sale shortly thereafter. The Pioneer Elite though was a lot better than the cheapie receiver I had replace it with. And I was using Wharfedale Vanguard horn Ring Dac speakers which were 95db sensitive and didn't dip much under 10 ohms - they don't get much easier to drive. In theory both receivers and the Bryston had impeccable distortion numbers and all three had more than enough power - the first receiver was rated at 100 watts.
My OTO at a mere 10 watts not even half way up will make you leave the room in pain from the volume level. The fact is we just don't use that many watts - even on modest 87-90db speakers. Where "some" low power amps have difficulty is in the varying impedance of speakers - amps with better power supplies are better able to handle these things.

Is part of the difference high current designs?

[IBSTORMIN]

I get a 4db gain just by using a balanced XLR connection instead of RCA with my M-588F.

YES, I am quoting myself and NO, I'm not going crazy. Been that way a long time now.

This just made me think that it's not totally about power but design. If I can change the way the signal flows from my pre-amp to my power amp and get a 4db gain with balanced cables, the amps you are describing have changed the flow INSIDE the amp to get more volume with less power. YES???

[Feanor]

YES, I am quoting myself and NO, I'm not going crazy. Been that way a long time now.

This just made me think that it's not totally about power but design. If I can change the way the signal flows from my pre-amp to my power amp and get a 4db gain with balanced cables, the amps you are describing have changed the flow INSIDE the amp to get more volume with less power. YES???

In fact if you feed a fully balanced amp a balanced signal you will get 6 dB extra gain vs. a single-end input. However gain should not be confused with power. The amp will not be able to deliver any more power than before, the limitation being the power supply.

[RGA]

Nightflier

Well without seeing the article I can't say but in 20 years the best amps IME have been low powered Single Ended designs and for the same money in virtually every instance sound better than high powered SS units at 2, 5, 10,times their price. I am talking my subjective listening experience and articles from manufaturers magazines and audio engineers are about that contradict the findings of other magazines audio engineers etc. UHF magazine for example wrote a book and in their amp section recommended AGAINST owning amplifiers with a damping factor above 40 sighting poor sound regardless of technology.

Power is power regardless of technology. An amplifier's job is to make a small signal it gets into a louder version without loss. You could creat a 500Watt SET amplifier if you wished iof cost, size, and heat were not an issue - and you would get the same volume level of a 500 watt SS amp.

If Spectron was correct then all higher watt SS amps would sound better than 1.5 watt SETs and since the vast majority of all 1.5 Watt SET owners sold high watt SS amps then clearly that is not the case. And the Vast majority of people who own high watt SS amps have yet to hear good Low power SETs. Most people have never even heard a tube amp. And being a Push Pull tube amp does not really sound the same as an SE.

For example my amp comes in a more powerful PP design but the SE design is the one that has won the day - it simply sounds a lot better.

Again I won't disagree with any of the omments about driving LE speakers - it makes sense that more powerful amplifiers would sound better with those speakers. I just see no need for LE apeakers since the only thing they do is lessen your choice of amplifier and they bring no advantages to the table whatsoever.

[IBSTORMIN]

In fact if you feed a fully balanced amp a balanced signal you will get 6 dB extra gain vs. a single-end input. However gain should not be confused with power. The amp will not be able to deliver any more power than before, the limitation being the power supply.

If you get more volume with the same power, you don't need more power. RGA said it takes twice as much power to get a 3db gain. So are you saying a 50 watt balanced configuration pre-amp/amp with a 6db gain will give the Speaker Volume of a 200 watt single end input?
50 watts x 2 = 100 watts for a 3db gain, 100 watts x 2 = 200 watts for another 3db gain.

[IBSTORMIN]

Another possibility (considering the age of the amps) is simply that one or both are no longer working at their best (so they could have sounded the same back in the 80s, but have deteriorated enough to sound different)...

By the way, the Integra I am referring to is Onkyo Integra.

I have three, well....two now because I just sold one, M-504's and they all sound the same. Dual mono 50 lb chasis with low distortion. I was going to ask what design these are but if no-one has heard of them, Oh Well. The M-504 sold for $870 in the 80's and sells for $500 used on E-bay now. The 508 was $1200, is more rare and the last one went for $985. I'd like to talk to someone who has compared these to what you guys are talking about so I know if I am wasting my time lusting over other equipment of if I should go ahead and lust.

I guess, after reading what Feanor said, it isn't just about power, the bigger amps can sound better. Going up in power in some lines DOES upgrade the sound. Might be what those Maggie people have experienced when they say it takes alot of power to make them sound their best. It is not just a more powerful amp but a better built one.

[Feanor]

OK Ajani, there are a few quotes I could have used, just happened to pick yours. From my experience, I'll have to disagree with you from what I hear in my Integra amps. From what you are saying, maybe it is not so in all lines? The amps in Integras line from the 80's might not be the quality you are referring to but are all rated at less than .003 THD. If rated at the same THD, when using the same speakers with the meters showing output at 10 watts which is well below capacity on both amps, why does the M-508 (200 watts) sound cleaner with more detail than the M-504 (165 watts)? Both use the exact same chasis/same layout just everything is bigger in the M-508. Is it transformer/capacitor size?

I've been observing component manufacturers', (mostly Japanese), for 35+ years. Their standard approach has been to build a product range of receivers, (amps, or whatever), at various price points.

At each higher price point they typically upgrade several things, that is not just features and power, but also design sophistication and component quality/capacity -- thus it isn't at all surprising the sound quality improves as you go up the product range.