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  1. #26
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    This review is from a Bryston/PMC owner who had the top stuff from these guys. The better HE/Tube systems are not warm not analytical - they're "right" and it's hard to improve on that and very few companies get there. This fellow was in a similar boat as you http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/O...al/345133.html
    Great post right there... highly worth the read, thanks RGA!

    cheers,
    elapsed
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  2. #27
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Yeah

    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    Great post right there... highly worth the read, thanks RGA!

    cheers,
    elapsed
    A beautifully written epistle for the Audio Note religion.

    elapsed, rush out and sell your Fidelity Acoustics speakers and all that Naim solid state rubbish you've got.

  3. #28
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    A beautifully written epistle for the Audio Note religion.

    elapsed, rush out and sell your Fidelity Acoustics speakers and all that Naim solid state rubbish you've got.
    LOL... yeah... that was more fanatical devotion than a useful review... but it did have some good points... at the end of the day, it's all about enjoying the sound not just technical measurements, PRAT, Detail, resolution, imaging, dynamic impact, whatever...

    As I will say till I die... if you don't like the way it sounds, don't buy it!!!

  4. #29
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    Well see I made the purchase based only on the added resolution and detail I was hearing, not the musicality. The decision to buy was made in under a minute, on impulse (I can admit that the name brand had something to do with the purchase as well), and had nothing to do with the MA speakers. I then went on to purchase the speakers I now own without auditioning with the Krell, and the synergy was just awful. It was an expensive lesson! I then traded the Krell for a Naim integrated (the same one I originally auditioned my speakers with), and set myself on the right path again.

    Which takes us to another point.. more detail does not equate more musicality. I've been saying this all along on the SACD vs CD and vinyl discussion. And on top of that, it's so much easier to build a system around synergy from the ground up, you stop worrying about the equipment so much and can just relax and enjoy the music, which is what it's about in the first place! I wish I'd known these things when I first started building my system.

    cheers,
    elapsed
    I think many of us have made similar mistakes.... My first budget 'audiophile' setup was bought with a short audition, based really on reviews.... I bought a NAD C352 Integrated, NAD C521bee CD Player and Mission V63 Towers... all of those products were the best value for my money (according to reviews)... I had that setup for 2 years, and while it was never fatiguing or irritating.... I just found it boring and uninvolving... not warm or sweet... later on, when I started trading out component for Rotels and Marantz and auditioned B&W, Revel, Monitor Audio and Musical Fidelity, I learned that for the same money I spent on my initial setup, I could have put together something I would have enjoyed far more....

  5. #30
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    A beautifully written epistle for the Audio Note religion.

    elapsed, rush out and sell your Fidelity Acoustics speakers and all that Naim solid state rubbish you've got.
    Lol that's the funny thing about Naim, it's the only system that I have ever listened to that actually plays music, none of this hifi nonsense. I've yet to hear any other system that gets my toes tapping. Sounds very similar to the tube analogy

    cheers,
    elapsed
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  6. #31
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBSTORMIN
    Does someone make tube CD players? I would like to start there and see if I like the sound. If so, could you recommend a few I could look for used?
    Such has been available for some time. I bought a used Manley Sigma Delta DAC from the mid 90s for the vintage system which uses a tube line stage and has gain controls. I use it to drive a Threshold amp directly dispensing with one active gain stage. It offers much better resolution than the *lower* distortion op amps built into the CD players I've used with it.

    There is much discussion over "tube sound". Indeed, you can find many earlier examples (usually using poor passive components and weak power supplies) that have a distinct personality. Most modern tube gear does not. Listen to any number of current preamp designs like the VTL 6.5/7.5 or an Audio Research REF3 and tell me those are colored. I used to obsess over THD stats when I was a teenager back in the 70s. Then I heard an Audio Research SP-3a1 compared to the vastly *lower* distortion Crown IC-150. There was no comparison between those models when listening to music. I quickly learned that such simplistic analysis provides little useful information when dynamic music content is concerned. Distortion with tube line stages typically runs in the 0.1% range anyway.

    rw

  7. #32
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    A beautifully written epistle for the Audio Note religion.

    elapsed, rush out and sell your Fidelity Acoustics speakers and all that Naim solid state rubbish you've got.
    I suppose it may look that way but an awful lot of audiophiles who own Audio Note are in their 60s and have owned a lot of other stuff. It's an end of the road company for most. From all the Naim and Musical Fidelity and Bryston that gets traded in for Audio Note at Soundhounds in Victoria at least to those people there was a reason and since it doesn't seem to ever go the other way around it may not be such bad advice you gave to Elapsed. While I always recommend an audition first - I have heard Naim, Bryston, MF over the last 2 decades. I'll stand by my preference.

    And maybe it would be advisable for you to actually listen to a complete set-up for a few hours. I have heard most of the stuff that you own and I would be willing to bet you'd join the "religion" if you bothered to listen instead of taking ignorant uninformed pot shots on internet forums about stuff you've never heard.

    That was my point from the review I posted. Here is a long time audiophile who has lived and breathed high power solid state professional speakers used in MANY recording studios all around the world. Not someone who posts all the time - rarely in fact. And then along comes something that makes him inspired. Fanaticism is the better word not religion - no one buys Audio Note because of words - in fact the words probably hinder them more than anything. Something makes you a fan because of the performance. One is a fan of Bonds because he hits better than anyone else, or a Ferrari because it's an elite automotive machine.

    It's a shame you slam what you have not heard. Being a fan of gear may be unusual but since there is so little that is very good when it does come along you want to sing about it. Audio Note is one of the few that generates that passion and usually has people trading stuff and selling stuff to get it and very very rarely the other way around.

    I'm not saying it's best because I've not heard everything - but for someone who wants to hear what SET amps are capable of, what the best Tube DACs are capable of, what elite turntables are capable of, what two way easy to drive loudspeakers are capable of, I will make the case that Audio Note falls in the "Elite" camp. Certainly one may prefer stuff from other companies or technologies - but I was responding to someone interested in trying tube gear. Audio Note makes tube gear - they're considered the top or at the very least the handful of top tube gear makers on the planet by every audio publication in print or not and by their competitors. That is worth auditioning and is a better representation of the best tubes than Jolida or the like in my view. Not because Jolida is bad but they don't make the elite stuff.
    Last edited by RGA; 12-30-2008 at 06:44 PM.

  8. #33
    Ajani
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    I forgot to add that the part of the 'review' that I found to be really silly is where he talks about his $30K Bryston setup but deliberately doesn't mention how much the audio note gear he auditioned and bought costs.... From what I've seen online, Audio Note gear is not remotely cheap, so he may have spent even more on his new setup...

  9. #34
    RGA
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    Ajani

    That's a fair point - no one said he spent half the money or anything. The fact remains that better gear in fact does cost money even though many people who can't afford it like to insist that whatever they can personally afford is the best and that others who spend more are just nuts and not getting any value. It makes them feel better about themselves and their financial limitations but it's hardly the truth.

    I work out a level three system being on par with his other gear. About $13k for the cd player combo and depending what else he chose for the front end $30k-$40k for the system would seem about right depending if he also purchased a vinyl rig and which preamp he chose.

    Though it should be noted that the system that actually came to his house was considerably less money and that is what he evaluated. The fact that he may have spent more for himself is something else.

    I personally feel (total subjective opinion) a level two system would have been enough to be more musically satisfying than Bryston PMC and that would run $9-$15k.

    The prices have gone up a fair bit due to the dollar too so the new prices here http://www.amherstaudio.com/ are considerably higher than at the time of that review.

    Bob was a reviewer for Positive feedback and a dealer and he liked AN so much that he dropped the reviewing and became a dealer for them.

    Another person I have talked to and we seem to share the same hearing of things: To IBSTORMIN - The AN Tube DACs I feel is worth auditioning because you may feel the same way

    "My journey to Audio Note's digital products, which is how I met the company, began, in its serious stage with a Krell MDT2 & SBP64X, zigged wildly to a Sonic Frontier SFT1 & SFT2-II, zagged partway back to a Naim CDX/XPS and then on to a CDS2, sampling a Meridian, a better Krell, a BAT, an Audio Aero, a Wadia, and an Accuphase along the way! The arrival at Audio Note was a delightful surprise that dramatically altered my expectations and increased my happiness. It is the first digital front end I have heard that does full justice to both new state of the art recordings and early 60's jazz. And perhaps more important, every AN digital front end I've heard so far outperforms comparable SACD players, comparing separate CD and SACD recordings. Yes, CD's on the AN rigs beat SACD's on the SACD players."
    Last edited by RGA; 12-31-2008 at 08:50 PM.

  10. #35
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Ajani

    That's a fair point - no one said he spent half the money or anything.
    I still feel he should have listed the price of the gear he auditioned and what he eventually bought, or left out the cost of the Bryston gear he previously owned...


    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The fact remains that better gear in fact does cost money even though many people who can't afford it like to insist that whatever they can personally afford is the best and that others who spend more are just nuts and not getting any value. It makes them feel better about themselves and their financial limitations but it's hardly the truth.
    That's so true... too often we hear people claiming that any amount above what they spent is a waste of money...

    On the other hand we also see what I consider to be totally untrue: the claim that anything below the ultra-expensive luxury gear, that some audiophiles own, is rubbish, low-fi, noise makers etc.. etc... Good sound can be had fairly cheaply, but you can always get better sound by spending lots more money...

    How much you should spend on audio is really based on whether you think a particular upgrade is worth the money... I've found that I generally have to triple my budget for any component, to see substantial improvements in sound quality.... How much I'm willing to spend is then more a result of my available cash than anything else....
    Last edited by Ajani; 01-01-2009 at 10:25 AM.

  11. #36
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    On the other hand we also see what I consider to be totally untrue: the claim that anything below the ultra-expensive luxury gear, that some audiophiles own, is rubbish, low-fi, noise makers etc.. etc... Good sound can be had fairly cheaply, but you can always get better sound by spending lots more money...
    I beg to differ, I've heard several systems in dedicated auditioning rooms, ranging from $50,000 to $250,000 that I think are outclassed by my (modest in comparison) system. And all too often, that money could be much better allocated towards a better room. From my experience the law of diminishing returns for a stereo system kicks in around $5,000, anything better and you'll need to double your budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    How much you should spend on audio is really based on whether you think a particular upgrade is worth the money... I've found that I generally have to triple my budget for any component, to see substantially improvements in sound quality.... How much I'm willing to spend is then more a result of my available cash than anything else....
    I'll agree with you there that I can get substantial gains by tripling my budget for any component, but quite honestly I can't see myself ever upgrading my components again, I've extremely content with my present system. I couldn't imagine spending $11,000 on a CD player to get an improvement over my current system. The only fun I may have in the future is small tweaks (interconnects, power cables, turntable platter, etc), or upgrading my speakers.

    cheers,
    elapsed
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  12. #37
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    I beg to differ, I've heard several systems in dedicated auditioning rooms, ranging from $50,000 to $250,000 that I think are outclassed by my (modest in comparison) system. And all too often, that money could be much better allocated towards a better room. From my experience the law of diminishing returns for a stereo system kicks in around $5,000, anything better and you'll need to double your budget.
    Actually, I think we're still making the same point (for the most part)... when I talk about spending more money... I don't mean just tossing around cash... Buying a $15K amp from a brand you don't like (sonically) is probably going to give you a far less satisfying sound than a $2K amp from a brand you really like... What I was referring to was spending money on brands you really like... so in your case, upgrading from your current Naims to maybe the $30K Naim stuff... I'm sure it'll sound better, but is the extra money worth it to you?

    $5K is a reasonable point to talk about diminishing returns... but I've moved away from believing that there is a specific point at which price to performance lessens... For $2K I could put together a satisfying Tower, Integrated and CD Combo, for $5K I could put together a better one, for $15K even better... + You need to keep in mind that all this depends on the size of the room I plan to use the setup in and my required volume levels... with a smaller space and lower volume requirements I can get away with Towers that are not truly full range or even bookshelves and more modest amplification... while if I have a very large room, then I'd likely need to spend a lot more for larger speakers and powerful amplification...

    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    I'll agree with you there that I can get substantial gains by tripling my budget for any component, but quite honestly I can't see myself ever upgrading my components again, I've extremely content with my present system. I couldn't imagine spending $11,000 on a CD player to get an improvement over my current system. The only fun I may have in the future is small tweaks (interconnects, power cables, turntable platter, etc), or upgrading my speakers.

    cheers,
    elapsed
    I hear you on that... I can't imagine spending more than what your setup costs (MSRP).... well not unless I win the lottery, in which case $20K speakers might seem like a reasonable use of money....
    Last edited by Ajani; 01-01-2009 at 11:36 AM.

  13. #38
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    I hear you on that... I can't imagine spending more than what your setup costs (MSRP).... well not unless I win the lottery, in which case $20K speakers might seem like a reasonable use of money....
    Well now winning the lottery is a whole other story.. in that case I'd run out and purchase Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage loudspeakers, with a new Naim 282/250 system and a fully loaded Linn LP12. Now that would be the last system I'd ever own! But honestly my current system makes me smile just as much as I would spending 6x as much on this upgrade, plus it feels great having saved for 3 years to build it.

    cheers,
    elapsed
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  14. #39
    RGA
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    The money issue aside and individual perceived value aside in general more expensive systems sound better than less expensive systems. Of course I agree that if you don't really care for the sound of a particular amp line and a particular speaker then their $50k set-up you may like less than a $5k set-up from someone else. That happens for everyone.

    Ajani the poster did not list the price for the good reason's he mentioned - owning a 20k GBP rig which back then was $45k Cad that he built up before he was married and then dropping large coin with the wife possibly reading is not a big deal since level 3 Audio Note is pretty easy to look up. The stuff that arrive at his house was pretty inexpensive and about 1/4 the money of his then current gear.

    Diminishing return is something few companies get around. I have found that for every upgrade in the AN world at least the upgrade has been rather substantial. A level three is miles better than level two which is in another league completely from level 1 or level zero.

    But these upgrades are wholesale system changes or mostly. That is why I am more of a system approach kind of person. You could add a $20k amp to your system and not hear much of a difference merely because many other factors in the chain are not good enough to resolve the improvement in the new amp.

    Even within AN lines they don't recommend going too far with particular components because the improvement won't be resolved by lower level gear. Having heard it they're correct - so if they can't do it within their own line - I don't see how most anyone else using mixed and matched set-ups can possibly get there. what with completely different design beliefs goals, technological skills and miss matches abound.

    Some components have higher degrees of change than others too it should be pointed out. More expensive turntable rigs yield a far far higher level of improvement to most cd players or SS amplifiers. The difference in sound from a 3b to 14b is less sonic and more about power and with efficient speakers the sonic differences may be negligible despite spending a lot more money. YBA's Integre DT was not bettered sonically by their $10k separates but they could drive inefficient speakers.

    Tube amps are a little more deceptive because of the variety of designs. The SORO is $2k more than the OTO and they sound very different - some like the SORO much better in which case the laws of diminishing returns is blown to the weeds. But many also prefer the darker silkier OTO in which case spending more for them doesn't get them more and in fact to them gets them less.

    I am of the view that I would rather spend $15k on something that is truly great rather than spending $3k on something that may very well be 80% of the 15k system but that really doesn't do it for me. People always talk of high stereo prices but will be fine with spending $40k on a car where a $15k would have been just as good at doing what cars were meant to do - point a to point b. The $15k is likely to do it better in fact if the Lemon Aid is correct (and they usually are).

    $20k on a speaker that could provide 30 years of entertainment value ain't such a bad thing.

  15. #40
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Here you go.. an author whom I respect who loves both solid-state (Naim of course) and tube: http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl51.html

    More articles by The Vinyl Anachronist here, all great reads: http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinylanachronist.html

    cheers,
    elapsed
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  16. #41
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Another person I have talked to and we seem to share the same hearing of things: To IBSTORMIN - The AN Tube DACs I feel is worth auditioning because you may feel the same way
    RGA, does this mean you are also cursed with a "Golden Ear"?

    Norm

  17. #42
    RGA
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    I am more of a value for the dollar kind of guy. And I get the irony since I very much like Audio Note and they're one of those silly makers of cost no object nearly million dollar 2 channel stereo companies if you went whole hog.

    I can be perfectly happy listening to my iPod and $40 AKG 26p headphones. The whole audiophile epidemic is just that - it's boys with toys (and some girls sprinkled into the mix).

    I recently reviewed Grant Fidelity which is up my ally - excellent sound for a great price. I am more about high musical satisfaction and less anal audiophile terminology.

    I suppose though the more you hear the less able you can go back. Most folks start with SS and some kind of hard to drive speakers - the ones who eventually go to SET and HE speakers rarely if ever go back. Most people are unfortunate and have no dealers carrying such systems which is a shame. Perhaps tubes scare them (and there are some good reasons for that) and HE speakers tend to be considerably uglier and more expensive to do well. But luckily affordable Tubes from the likes of Grant Fidelity and ASL are out there.

  18. #43
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
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    Worth a try?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    I'd suggest trying something like this:

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-X-10v3-Tube-B

    It's a cheap way to get tube sound in your system and if you don't like it, you can sell it for the price you paid for it....
    Ajani suggested this and RGA was just praising Grant Fidelity. I do not have much money right now to spend on upgrades and not sure what I want. I see Grant Fidelity has a store on E-bay and has a special on what looks to be similar, their B-283 Tube Processor regularly $219 for $150.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tab%3DWatching

    Which would you suggest I try - Musical or Grant?

  19. #44
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    Here you go.. an author whom I respect who loves both solid-state (Naim of course) and tube: http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl51.html

    More articles by The Vinyl Anachronist here, all great reads: http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinylanachronist.html

    cheers,
    elapsed
    Who is this Mark Phillips guy anyway?

    I sampled his articles ... I was going to say "same old vinyl gospel", but then noticed they were some years ago, so maybe it wasn't so old back then.

  20. #45
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Don't think so

    Quote Originally Posted by IBSTORMIN
    Ajani suggested this and RGA was just praising Grant Fidelity. I do not have much money right now to spend on upgrades and not sure what I want. I see Grant Fidelity has a store on E-bay and has a special on what looks to be similar, their B-283 Tube Processor regularly $219 for $150.
    Don't get me wrong. I use tubes in the required gain stages in both my music systems. Triodes running class A are excellent output devices. On the other hand, I cannot imagine how any additional and otherwise superfluous stage can *fix* the sins of that which precedes it. A perfect gain stage can only render the circuit unchanged. Any *correction* itself would necessarily be added distortion. My suggestion would be to improve the quality of the building blocks, not add band aids.

    rw

  21. #46
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Seems to me

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Don't get me wrong. I use tubes in the required gain stages in both my music systems. Triodes running class A are excellent output devices. On the other hand, I cannot imagine how any additional and otherwise superfluous stage can *fix* the sins of that which precedes it. A perfect gain stage can only render the circuit unchanged. Any *correction* itself would necessarily be added distortion. My suggestion would be to improve the quality of the building blocks, not add band aids.

    rw
    'Stat, you answered the question. The tube 'buffers" do what tubes do in general: they add low-order harmonic distortion to the signal. This type of distortion has been proven to sound pleasant. It adds the things tubes are praised for: warmth, body, harmonic richness, depth, an "organic" quality -- or the semblance of these things. Also, where relevant, tubes' low order distortion masks the unpleasant, high order distortion present in s/s amps that use a lot of negative feedback. I strongly suspect they this distortion works to mask certain nasty digital effects such as jitter.

    Thus a significant portion of the tube advantage can be obtained inserting a simple tube circuit basically any where in the signal path, even if that tube circuit is just unity gain buffer. I have explained all this before but people don't listen. (Let me remind everyone that I'm a tube user myself.)

  22. #47
    RGA
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    That is unfortunately over simplified because everyone on another forum using the GF device and who has also heard good Tubes will tell you the GF device is not even remotely as good. But it certainly may very well be a good cheap way to "improve" the sound of SS. So rather than knock all Tube designs for being euphonic and masking the "true accurate path" of SS why not attack SS by saying that it's so damn unlistenable that a $200 Tube stage can make SS sound remotely tolerable.

    I have had Bryston, Arcam and numerous SS amps in my home. There is not a single aspect of sound reproduction that my tube amp does not win in with the exception of noise floor and power in numbers and even there you'd need measuring equipment to tell. It is clearer in the treble has deeper richer bass, transient attack is faster, clearer, more open and decay is 3 dimensional. See the post of the Brystom PMC owner.

    Unfortunately not all tube amps are created equal and the differences are far higher than SS. Some tube amps sound veiled and hissy and mushy. Some are not and it sounds like you have heard none of the "some are not" spectrum.

    Why SET? (well besides the fact that they sound far better for a fraction of the price?

    "Once, having established that all audio signals can be expressed as a change in amplitude over some period of time, or DeltaA/DeltaT, the function of all sound system equipment can be easily defined. For instance, an amplifier performs simple multiplication resulting in an output signal which can be expressed as G(DeltaA/DeltaT) or GDeltaA/DeltaT, where G is the gain of the amplifier and DeltaA/DeltaT is the input signal. From this representation it can be seen that all changes in amplitude must be magnified by the same factor (i.e. the Gain of the amplifier) and the time base (DeltaT) must remain unchanged, independent of all other considerations. This leads to the discovery of the only two families of real distortions that can and do exist in audio systems.

    Such amplitude distortion can assume two forms, harmonic and non-harmonic. Harmonic distortion (the most commonly and easily measured anomaly in audio components) is generally caused by non-linearities in the electrical characteristics of the amplification devices. Such distortion is "harmonic", as the number of zero crossings in the error wave form in an integral multiple of the number of zero crossings in the fundamental. Additionally, the value of the distortion signal will always be zero at the zero crossing point of the fundamental. A small amount of this type of distortion is inaudible as it does not drastically alter the shape of the waveform and does not affect the zero crossing point.

    Non-harmonic amplitude distortions are generally caused by network anomalies. Such phenomena as slew rate limiting, clipping, and transient distortions result in non-harmonic distortion components which not only alter the shape of the signal waveform, but can change the zero crossing point, as these elements may have some real value, when the input signal is at zero.

    This leads to the second major family of distortion; time base distortion. Time base distortion occurs when the DeltaT term of the signal equation is altered. The zero crossing point displacement described above is a form of time base distortion. Modulation of pulse width, or a change in the delay time between signal "events" also constitute time base distortions. These distortions are the most audible as our auditory system can more easily detect duration and delay than amplitude.

    [Good SE Tube amplifiers] do not make use of any kind of feedback. As a result, they were neither designed for vanishingly small harmonic or low intermodulation distortions, but instead for minimal non-harmonic and time base anomalies.

    [Good SE Tube amplifiers] are all using directly heated power triodes in their output stages, and miniature double triodes in their high-gain and driver stages. Their function were defined before their circuitry was conceived, as constant multiplication of amplitude over a totally non-varying time base, with a view to maintaining power output into a varying load.

    During the development of these amplifiers using direct heated power triodes, most accepted amplifier design practices had to be ignored, as investigations into their implementation showed circuits with variability of gain with amplitude, time and signal duration, as well as variability of time delay with amplitude, signal duration and signal delay. What has resulted are amplifier circuits which operate optimally and non-varyingly for all signal and load conditions. Where compromises have been necessary between maximally linear amplitude response, and optimum time base performance, the design parameters have always been adjusted to favour the latter. With the superior linearity and load characteristics of the directly heated power triode, whose circuit configurations naturally lend themselves to the defined functions.

    The design practices most obviously eschewed in the development of [Good SE Tube amplifiers] (using direct heated power triodes) is the use of negative or local feedback. Negative feedback, quite simply, is the application of an inverted portion of an amplifier's output signal to its input terminals. This "extra" signal is subtracted from the input and serves to reduce the effective amplifier gain (as the input signal is then smaller). In addition, steady state distortion is thought to be reduced as the out-of-phase distortion components contained in the feedback signal cancels out some of the errors created by the amplifier circuitry.

    This scheme presents two very obvious problems. Firstly, all amplifiers introduce some delay to passing a signal from its input, to its output and then back to its input. During this delay period, a feedback amplifier is operating at its natural (referred to as "open-loop") gain. It is not until this initial delay period is over, that the circuit begins to exhibit its intended operating ("closed loop") gain characteristics. There must be, by the very definition of a feedback system, some change in the gain factor G, during the transition from open to closed loop operation. This gain modulation would probably not be audible by itself, as the propagation delays of most good amplifiers are quite small, except that the increased gain of the amplifier during the initialization period results in a decreased maximum input capability before overload. Simply put, an amplifier which utilizes 20 dB of feedback (a relatively modest amount by modern standards) and requires an input of two volts to clip during closed loop operation, would overload with only two tenths of a volt input during the forward delay period. Once the amplifier is overdriven, it may take many times its delay period to become fully restored to normal operation. The distortion created by this condition has been commonly referred to as Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM), Dynamic Intermodulation Distortion (DIM), and Slew Induced Distortion (SID).

    In addition to this obvious form of feedback induced distortion, there exists another more subtle effect of signal regeneration. Because all amplifiers have some forward propagation delay, the fed back portion of the output signal will always lag behind the input. There is therefore a constant introduction of "out of date" information into the amplifier. Under transient conditions (which is what music is; transients), this results in the presentation of an error correction signal intended to reduce the distortion of an input signal which has already passed through the amplifier and is either already out of the circuit or well on the way out of the circuit. The signal present at the input by the time the feedback has arrived may bear no relation to the previous signal and thus will not be properly acted upon by the regenerated information. The current input signal is then distorted once, through the subtraction of an erroneous feedback waveform, and again by the amplifier. Additionally, the error signal present in feedback is passed through the amplifier and again fed back, with all of the newly created distortions, to make yet another trip through the circuit, until it is allowed to decay through successive attenuation. Thus, a distortion signal which originally may have lasted only a few microseconds, can pass through the amplifier enough times for its effective duration to have exceeded the threshold of human audibility. The mechanism originally designed to reduce audible distortion, actually, under transient conditions, serves to regenerate, emphasize and, in fact, create distortion.

    Because Good SE Tube amplifiers operate totally without signal feedback, such distortion regeneration does not take place. The circuits have been designed for maximum linearity without corrective mechanisms, and thus responds as easily to transient signals as it does to steady state waveforms. The amplifiers make no attempt to reverse the path of time in order to correct their own errors. Those distortions created by these circuits (which are almost entirely harmonic in nature) are allowed to pass only onto the loudspeaker, and not back to the input.

    Despite the absence of feedback, the forward propogation delay of all our amplifiers has received much attention. All our output transformers have been designed using this criterion, obviously with a keen eye on cost. It is obvious that if this delay is not absolutely invariant, for all conditions, the DeltaT component of the input signal will not be accurately preserved. Thus, those factors which determine delay have been carefully observed and stabilized. In addition, the operation of all amplification stages at nearly constant power, independent of signal conditions, i.e. Class A operation at every stage, greatly contributes to the symmetry and linearity of our circuits.

    It is, however, not enough for an amplifier to operate linearly by itself. In order to minimize audible distortions, the device must be able to operate as well into a real loudspeaker as it does into a laboratory resistive load.

    In order to adequately control the cone excursions of the loudspeaker and to optimize power transfer, the effective output impedance of the amplifier should be as far below the impedance of the load as possible. The ratio of these two impedances is referred to a damping factor, usually referenced to an eight ohm speaker. Thus, a damping factor of eighty reflects an amplifier output impedance of one tenth of one ohm. The design of the output transformer is extremely critical, and taps on the output are normally provided to match the load impedance best possible.

    A problem in the normal expression of damping factor is that its measurement is performed using steady state signals. This results in a factor relying quite heavily on the action of an amplifier's feedback. The damping ability of an amplifier under transient conditions, before the feedback mechanism has been able to reach, is only accurately expressed as the steady state damping factor divided by the feedback factor. Thus, an amplifier with twenty decibels of feedback and specified damping factor of one hundred, has a damping value of only ten under transient conditions. This not only reduces the amplifier's ability to control the cone movement, but allows voltages created in the speaker voice coil to mix with the output signal and enter the amplifier's feedback system. In this condition, distortions created by the speaker's motion are not only unattenuated, but are emphasized through feedback regeneration."

    [Good SE Tube] no-feedback amplifier's damping ability remains constant at all signal conditions.
    Last edited by RGA; 01-05-2009 at 02:22 AM.

  23. #48
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    A good read

    Thanks, RGA, that quote brought together the things I've heard about SET designs.

    At risk of over simplification, tubes make excellent voltage amplification devices and are will suited to applications such as preamplfiers and analog stages of, say, CD players. As main amplifiers, SET designs very limited in total power output of 30-40 watts being the maximum; or "purer" designs to perhaps 10-12 watts as alluded to in the quoted article -- I'm not sure of the particulars. Most people are not willing to live with that limitation as it is too restrictive of the type of loudspeaker that can be used. (A SET device might make a great headphone amp, I guess).

    High power tube amplifiers exist but these designs start to loose the advantages described in the quote. Nevertheless these designs can be very fine, (such as E-Stats VTL amps), but they certainly don't have the advantage of low cost that you mentioned.

    Meanwhile solid state amps can be designed with minimal feedback or even none at all. I gather designs that use zero feedback in the output stages are fairly common, (for example the Monarchy amp that I'm using).
    Last edited by Feanor; 01-05-2009 at 05:13 AM.

  24. #49
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    My experience doesn't support the lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Also, where relevant, tubes' low order distortion masks the unpleasant, high order distortion present in s/s amps that use a lot of negative feedback... I have explained all this before but people don't listen. (Let me remind everyone that I'm a tube user myself.)
    So how does the "good" distortion mask the bad distortion? Especially given the fact that the magnitudes of distortion for line stages are typically in the 0.01-0.03% range if not lower. Unless of course this buffer design, unlike any line stage, has added deliberately high levels of distortion to achieve this effect. The theory would also suggest that this masking effect would hide the *real" distortion profile of sources upstream of the tubes. A Toshiba 3950 still sounds harder and less dimensional than a GamuT CD-1 through those VTL amps. I hear significant differences in apparent hardness of various CDs through the Manley Sigma Delta DAC / linestage.

    If you recall, I have an Audio Research preamp, but use it solely for vinyl. Since the GamuT has sufficient drive to power the amps directly and bypass the unit altogether, I can truly compare what it does to the signal. What I find is that is that the preamp shrinks the image width (likely due to the volume/balance control as its measured separation is relatively poor) and reduces resolution as I find every gain stage does to an extent. The theory would suggest that things would be better, not worse, with the unit in the path.

    It adds the things tubes are praised for: warmth, body, harmonic richness, depth, an "organic" quality

    Or choice "B", preserves such qualities when they are present in the recording. I have numerous examples of CDs and vinyl alike in my collection that do NOT exhibit those desirable traits when run through either music system containing tube components. The Best of the Hollies, for example, has always sounded thin, flat, one-dimensional and a bit hard regardless of the system on which I play it. I listen to it solely for sentimental reasons as it brings back pleasant memories from my childhood. Unfortunately, this is just one example of the "bad-stuff-sounds-worse-on-good-gear" phenomenon. I forgot exactly what piece it was, but something I brought to Sea Cliff once sounded almost unlistenable with its sins laid bare on the spectacular all tube system there.

    I don't find that any really good tube gear can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

    rw

  25. #50
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    At risk of over simplification, tubes make excellent voltage amplification devices and are will suited to applications such as preamplfiers and analog stages of, say, CD players. As main amplifiers, SET designs very limited in total power output of 30-40 watts being the maximum; or "purer" designs to perhaps 10-12 watts as alluded to in the quoted article -- I'm not sure of the particulars. Most people are not willing to live with that limitation as it is too restrictive of the type of loudspeaker that can be used. (A SET device might make a great headphone amp, I guess).
    Yep... probably one of the most convenient places to put tubes is in a Preamp or analog stage of a CD Player... that's what Musical Fidelity does... that way they get some of the benefits of tubes, but the power etc.. of solid state...

    One day I hope to listen to a low powered SET and a pair of HE Speakers.... I suspect that kind of system might be to my liking...

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