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Should 'Audiophile' Brands Be Sold In Electronics Mega-Stores?
Ok, it's a Friday and I'm bored, which means Poll Time!!!! So what do you think?
Should 'Audiophile' Brands Be Sold In Electronics Mega-Stores?
There's so much talk about whether or not dedicated HiFi is dying, so should traditional audio brands take a new stance? Should they consider moving away from the snotty small boutique shops and start offloading their entry level products on the major electronic stores (Best Buy, Future Shop, or even local 'mass market' stores)?
Brands such as B&W, Revel, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, Kef, NAD, Cambridge Audio, PSB etc... all have products that would fit into the price range of gear sold at mass market stores... So do you think they should attempt to increase both sales of entry level gear and market recognition by making the switch?
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Sure, as long as the sales guy is able to sell the product without employing the sock-it-to-'em tactics that Best Buy, Circuit City use to appeal to the masses....
Um, I just stepped in big pile of contradiction there, didn't I?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auricauricle
Sure, as long as the sales guy is able to sell the product without employing the sock-it-to-'em tactics that Best Buy, Circuit City use to appeal to the masses....
Um, I just stepped in big pile of contradiction there, didn't I?
Yes you did, and you betta wipe your feet before coming into the forum, or you will hear from Pixie.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auricauricle
Sure, as long as the sales guy is able to sell the product without employing the sock-it-to-'em tactics that Best Buy, Circuit City use to appeal to the masses....
Um, I just stepped in big pile of contradiction there, didn't I?
Hmmm, I've found the salesmen in boutique shops to employ frustatingly stupid tactics as well....
Also, I probably should have mentioned in my initial post that a few brands already do this... such as Martin Logan and Klipsch (which maybe why Klipsch doesn't seem to get much respect for their Synergy and reference ranges)...
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some of them are here (not in all 'mass market' stores), B&W and Denon mostly, but also Focal and so...
the salesmen know next to nothing about the products though...
I don't think many people would buy true 'audiophile' products in mega stores, after all, why would you buy something that costs 3 or 4 times more than anything else in the shop, while the salesman can't 'tell' you why it's better...
and most likely, you can't even decide for yourself that it's better, because you cannot properly audition it...
add to that that some high end manufacturers don't want their products being sold in a store where the salesmen don't have any knowledge about their product...
Keep them spinning,
Bert.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basite
some of them are here (not in all 'mass market' stores), B&W and Denon mostly, but also Focal and so...
the salesmen know next to nothing about the products though...
I don't think many people would buy true 'audiophile' products in mega stores, after all, why would you buy something that costs 3 or 4 times more than anything else in the shop, while the salesman can't 'tell' you why it's better...
and most likely, you can't even decide for yourself that it's better, because you cannot properly audition it...
add to that that some high end manufacturers don't want their products being sold in a store where the salesmen don't have any knowledge about their product...
Keep them spinning,
Bert.
Good points... though I wouldn't suggest they sell their really expensive gear in the store... only products that are in or at least near the price range of gear already in the store... (unless the store has a proper, dedicated listening room for better gear)...
I think the best examples are 2 stores in Toronto: Bay Bloor Radio and Kromer Radio (I'm sure both would be highly offended at being called mass market stores, but by comparision to boutique audio shops, they fit the bill)... Both stores sell a range of products from car stereos, Ipods and mass market receivers, dvd players etc... to quality 2channel gear from Arcam, Totem, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, NAD, PSB etc... Hmmm... maybe I should call them "in between" stores... Stores big enough to sell mass market gear and draw crowds, but small enough to maintain properly trained salesmen...
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I have no problem with Big Box stores selling high-end anything if they do it right.
I don't have much faith in their ability to do it right under their one-size-fits-all policy framework, and I don't think they go out of their way to create the best conditions for selling audio gear.
But if they did, it'd be great - many smaller cities and towns would never have an audio store that could carry some high end lines, but a big-box store could make a go of it if they did it right.
At the end of the day I buy the product, not the distribution channel.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Yes you did, and you betta wipe your feet before coming into the forum, or you will hear from Pixie.
Oooooooooooooooooh.....
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Bay Bloor Radio
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Originally Posted by Ajani
Good points... though I wouldn't suggest they sell their really expensive gear in the store... only products that are in or at least near the price range of gear already in the store... (unless the store has a proper, dedicated listening room for better gear)...
I think the best examples are 2 stores in Toronto: Bay Bloor Radio and Kromer Radio (I'm sure both would be highly offended at being called mass market stores, but by comparision to boutique audio shops, they fit the bill)... Both stores sell a range of products from car stereos, Ipods and mass market receivers, dvd players etc... to quality 2channel gear from Arcam, Totem, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, NAD, PSB etc... Hmmm... maybe I should call them "in between" stores... Stores big enough to sell mass market gear and draw crowds, but small enough to maintain properly trained salesmen...
I live and worked on Toronto for a good many years and knew Bay Bloor very well. You have typified it quite accurately. They always carried a good range of products. The last time I visited was about five years ago but the tradition lived on at that time.
The original owner, Saul Mandelson, and his son employed a number of career salesman. In fact at that last visit I spoke with a guy who I knew worked there for at least 25 years. Of these guys it may be said that they weren't as arrogant or opinionated as the typical boutique types, yet they knew the products they were selling.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I live and worked on Toronto for a good many years and knew Bay Bloor very well. You have typified it quite accurately. They always carried a good range of products. The last time I visited was about five years ago but the tradition lived on at that time.
The original owner, Saul Mandelson, and his son employed a number of career salesman. In fact at that last visit I spoke with a guy who I thw had worked there for at least 25 years. Of these guys it may be said that they weren't as arrogant or opinionated as is often the case at the boutique types, yet they knew the products they were selling.
My first week in Toronto, I bought a NAD Amp/CD Combo and a pair of Mission floorstanders from Bay Bloor Radio.... It's a good example of the kind of stores I'd like to see more of....
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I haven't seen that kind of videostore in America yet, and think that the Canadian model is the best thing that the boutique brands can hope for. IMHO, Audiophilia is not the vibrant market it once was. Mebbe I should find another forum for this comment, but it has always been a niche market and, with the increasing popularity of ready-to-go music sources, the quick fix will trounce traditional, sedentary sources unless they (a) position their markets for more accessibility, (b) adopt some of the quick-fix technology to their own line, and (c) broaden their appeal and spruce up the snob-status-symbol image. Again, IMHO, the plug and play format is extremely appealing, and is winning over a very eager, young, techie base that may quite overshadow the eager, yet generally older crowd whose interest in things musical and technological may no longer be relevant....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auricauricle
I haven't seen that kind of videostore in America yet, and think that the Canadian model is the best thing that the boutique brands can hope for. IMHO, Audiophilia is not the vibrant market it once was. Mebbe I should find another forum for this comment, but it has always been a niche market and, with the increasing popularity of ready-to-go music sources, the quick fix will trounce traditional, sedentary sources unless they (a) position their markets for more accessibility, (b) adopt some of the quick-fix technology to their own line, and (c) broaden their appeal and spruce up the snob-status-symbol image. Again, IMHO, the plug and play format is extremely appealing, and is winning over a very eager, young, techie base that may quite overshadow the eager, yet generally older crowd whose interest in things musical and technological may no longer be relevant....
Agreed... I've always said that if Audio Companies really want to ensure that they have profitability (or even jobs) in the future, then they need to look beyond just appealing to wealthy middle-aged to retired vinyl lovers with their $10K+ Speakers... and start trying to appeal to the younger ipod/computer generations... and they need to let go of the snotty attitudes and the retarded notions that unless you are willing to sell your house, wife and children's souls to get the most expensive planar/turntable system possible, that you don't care about sound quality... younger generations want BOTH sound quality and convenience... There is opportunity for these audio companies to make money and not be totally niche market, but they need to start living in the present to see the opportunities...
The good news is that several Audio Companies are producing products designed to embrace modern trends... aka USB inputs and Music Servers... too bad most of these companies are pricing these products out of the range of the people who would actually buy them...
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Sorry, couldn't vote in the poll as the two choices kinda had that end-of-the-week brain fart quality to them. (no offense)
Still I think your overall point in the opening post is a great topic.
Honestly, I don't think it matters whether the audiophile brands get into stores or not. Their core market is dying, and they're not relating to the emerging markets very well.
I can't see how increasing their overhead and putting demo units out (which ultimately lose value) really gets them anything.
There's a fancy, upscale mall nearby that had a Bang and Olafson store in it. Perhaps not audiophile in the mind of many, but certainly high priced. It didn't last a year, despite having a wide range of products and an excellent listening environment. All I ever saw in there were old men. (Yes, even older than me at the time.)
Not too far away was a Magnolia, that had a number of high end offerings as well as several entry and mid level products. This was before the Best Buy assimilation and destruction of the brand. That store had four terrific listening rooms and good staff. All I ever saw in there were old men. It closed after 18 months.
Lest you think that this highly affluent zip code had only old men living in it, there was also a Bose Store, which was perpetually filled with young adults spending lots of cash. It looked like the most popular destination in the mall until the Apple Store opened up.
Point is, I don't think the average consumer, well-heeled or not, is going out of his or her way to seek out audiophile style equipment. They're happy with good enough.
Companies like Bose and JBL, as well as some "resurrected" brands like Altec Lansing, are making a killing in the iPod/MP3 player ecosystem, while others ignore the market. When those convenience consumers finally decide to get a stationary system, they won't be looking to brands they never heard of.
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Originally Posted by filecat13
Sorry, couldn't vote in the poll as the two choices kinda had that end-of-the-week brain fart quality to them. (no offense)
Still I think your overall point in the opening post is a great topic.
:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:
Ummm... thanx...
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Originally Posted by filecat13
Honestly, I don't think it matters whether the audiophile brands get into stores or not. Their core market is dying, and they're not relating to the emerging markets very well.
I can't see how increasing their overhead and putting demo units out (which ultimately lose value) really gets them anything.
There's a fancy, upscale mall nearby that had a Bang and Olafson store in it. Perhaps not audiophile in the mind of many, but certainly high priced. It didn't last a year, despite having a wide range of products and an excellent listening environment. All I ever saw in there were old men. (Yes, even older than me at the time.)
Not too far away was a Magnolia, that had a number of high end offerings as well as several entry and mid level products. This was before the Best Buy assimilation and destruction of the brand. That store had four terrific listening rooms and good staff. All I ever saw in there were old men. It closed after 18 months.
Lest you think that this highly affluent zip code had only old men living in it, there was also a Bose Store, which was perpetually filled with young adults spending lots of cash. It looked like the most popular destination in the mall until the Apple Store opened up.
Point is, I don't think the average consumer, well-heeled or not, is going out of his or her way to seek out audiophile style equipment. They're happy with good enough.
Companies like Bose and JBL, as well as some "resurrected" brands like Altec Lansing, are making a killing in the iPod/MP3 player ecosystem, while others ignore the market. When those convenience consumers finally decide to get a stationary system, they won't be looking to brands they never heard of.
Interesting point on the Bose Store... The top floor of Bay Bloor Radio is a Bose Store... so they pretty much have all the reasons average consumers would go into an electronics store covered....
The really sad part is that audiophiles waste so much time bashing Bose and (to a much lesser extent) JBL and Klipsch for catering to the mass market, while failing to realize that long after these "Boutique Stores" and Brands are out of business, Bose will still be making money.... Time to stop hating and start competing...
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Yeah, time to dig in the heels.....Somehow or another, Klipsch and Bose have managed to weather it out, in spite of themselves. I'm not going to get into a Bose or Klipsch bash, but do want to underscore your point that the market is heading towards the young and the hip. I haven't read any stereo-mags in awhile, but have had my "feelers" out long enough to recognize a trend, and I think it indicates that the old-men-in-the-salons phenom is fading away...grudgingly, but still fading.
It's a shame that the standard has come to a point that "good enough" flies. While there will always be, no doubt, people whose ears are highly tuned instruments and whose attention span will enable them to detect the very nuances that make great musical performance, this market will--IMHO--continue to lose ground.
So, what, Oh Best Beloved, do we do to keep us off the slippery slope?
Or are we doomed to plug in the I-Pod when we settle into our electric wheelchairs as we speed toward the local liquor store....?
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Originally Posted by Ajani
The really sad part is that audiophiles waste so much time bashing Bose and (to a much lesser extent) JBL and Klipsch for catering to the mass market, while failing to realize that long after these "Boutique Stores" and Brands are out of business, Bose will still be making money.... Time to stop hating and start competing...
One of the things I like about JBL is its long history and the fact that it's still covering the high end as well as the low end. If I had $60*, I could buy a pair of JBL speakers and a subwoofer. If I had $6000, I could buy a full-sized home theater system (Studio L Series) or some really nice stereo speakers (pair of Array 1000 or Performance Series). If I had $60,000, I could buy a pair of some of the best speakers in the world (Everest II). Okay, I could get on the waiting list anyway.
The volume of sales on the low end stuff helps to prop up the sales of the high end stuff, and there's a natural bridge for the low end buyer to come back to a known brand for the next purchase.
On a couple of other forums, I'm surprised at the growing number of posters who are coming on line and reporting that they just got their first "high end system," a set of JBLs from the low end of the loudspeaker range but high priced to them at nearly $1000 for five speakers and a sub. A few months later they're back asking about the next line or the line above that.
I suspect a lot of people get into a brand and keep moving up the chain. If there's no place for a customer to build brand affinity when he or she starts a the bottom, there'll be no brand loyalty later on. Studies show that brand loyalty is a big deal to many young consumers, and brands that don't build affinity early in a shopper's buying history have a hard time converting them later, especially if there's inconvenience attached, such as having to search for a place where the product is sold.
*In fact I did that with the JBL Creature 2. Didn't even need an amp or preamp. Just plug in the iPod and I've got a good sounding stereo system with a sub. All the kids at school love it (or they would if it were 40 years ago and I were still in high school).
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Originally Posted by filecat13
Not too far away was a Magnolia, that had a number of high end offerings as well as several entry and mid level products. This was before the Best Buy assimilation and destruction of the brand. That store had four terrific listening rooms and good staff. All I ever saw in there were old men. It closed after 18 months.
If you're living in L.A., you would not have seen a pre-Best Buy owned Magnolia location, so I don't know what you mean by "assimilation and destruction of the brand." Best Buy acquired Magnolia back in 2000, and their expansion into California occurred only because Best Buy had the deep pockets to finance that expansion. Magnolia's entry into the California market basically knocked both Good Guys and Tweeter out.
Most of the standalone Magnolia locations remain in place because they serve the home installation market where the margins remain healthy. The issue on the retail side is that audio stores simply can't stay in business by only selling components anymore.
If anything, I think BB has smartly leveraged the Magnolia brand by moving Magnolia ministores into their Best Buy stores. This expands access to higher end brands, while still keeping some separation from the mass market offerings on the Best Buy floor.
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Originally Posted by filecat13
Point is, I don't think the average consumer, well-heeled or not, is going out of his or her way to seek out audiophile style equipment. They're happy with good enough.
And this is nothing new. That's how the market has always been. Back in the 70s, the majority of consumers were purchasing cheap portable record changers and all-in-one compact systems, the 80s were dominated by boomboxes and Walkmans, the 90s saw the emergence of mini-systems and portable CD players, and this decade it's all about the iPod.
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This poll is ignoring one crucial reason why so-called "audiophile" brands stayed out of big box stores in the first place -- the relationships with the dealers themselves. An audio company cannot simply dump their entry level products into the big box chains without potential repercussions from their independent dealer network.
filecat13 cited JBL as an example of a company that makes entry level speakers and high end products. Well, when was the last time you actually saw a U.S. dealer that carried any of the JBL high end products? At one point, JBL had one of the biggest independent dealer networks of any audio company. But, when JBL began selling their products at big box stores, those dealers dumped JBL in droves. Their rationale was very simple -- why should I promote my competition?
This coincided with the rise of the Canadian speaker companies like Paradigm, Energy, PSB, et al. Many of JBL's former dealers picked up these brands and others like B&W to provide the same entry level to high-end coverage that JBL offered. These dealers are given territorial exclusivity, and in return, these independent dealers help promote the brand and provide a certain level of service.
When JBL went mass market, their brand equity took a nose dive, because those stores offered inadequate demo facilities and indifferent service. And those stores did not carry anything beyond JBL's entry level lines. Overseas, JBL still has a decent reputation precisely because there are still stores that carry their high end offerings (and many of their speakers are tailored to the local markets and built in Denmark).
With the decline in the number of independent audio stores and regional specialty chains, I think that there is recognition by some companies that they have to get in with the Best Buys and Circuit Cities. This is why companies like Klipsch and Yamaha began separating their specialty lines from their other lines. Klipsch now only sells their Synergy line at Best Buy, while Yamaha created the HTR designation for their receivers.
The danger with overreliance on these big box chains is that they can drop a brand, and that company would suddenly lose more than half of their dealer network. Just look at what happened to Harman International. Circuit City had carried the Harman brands (h/k, JBL, and Infinity) for decades, yet they dropped Harman in favor of the D&M brands (Denon, Boston Acoustics).
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Nothing stops the big box stores from carrying these products now except for a couple minor issues.
1. They don't want to.
2. The customers don' want it.
3. The sellers don't want it.
Imagine Joe Ordinary: "Why is this Conrad Johnson $5,000 when the $159 Pioneer has the same watts, more knobs and those cool blinking lights?"
Salesman: Picking his nose and scratching his butt, " I dunno, I'm just here on summer break and they made us promise not to say anything useful." "I own the Pioneer, it's just great!" "Over here are some $139 speakers you could listen for yourself and decide."
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Originally Posted by Auricauricle
Yeah, time to dig in the heels.....Somehow or another, Klipsch and Bose have managed to weather it out, in spite of themselves. I'm not going to get into a Bose or Klipsch bash, but do want to underscore your point that the market is heading towards the young and the hip. I haven't read any stereo-mags in awhile, but have had my "feelers" out long enough to recognize a trend, and I think it indicates that the old-men-in-the-salons phenom is fading away...grudgingly, but still fading.
Bose is a different animal from other companies because they're the only audio company that does a lot of national TV advertising. They're well known because of this, and because if you're comparing a Bose system with standard TV speakers, this is the improvement that most consumers hear.
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Originally Posted by Auricauricle
It's a shame that the standard has come to a point that "good enough" flies.
As with my response to filecat13, I will say that the standard was never higher than "good enough" to begin with for the majority of the market. And in fact, I think that the audio quality right now for the majority of the market is head and shoulders above what the average listener was listening to 20 years ago.
For all of the bashing on MP3s, would anybody rather listen to prerecorded cassettes and Walkmans?
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Originally Posted by Auricauricle
While there will always be, no doubt, people whose ears are highly tuned instruments and whose attention span will enable them to detect the very nuances that make great musical performance, this market will--IMHO--continue to lose ground.
How can the market lose ground when most of it never occupied the high ground to begin with? If your focus is on the high end, it's not like you have a dearth of choices there. Even with the midlevel market, the quality of the gear in the affordable price points is actually better than ever, if you consider inflation. For example, my dad's Marantz 2275 receiver cost $600 back in 1976, which is the equivalent of more than $2,000 today. Think it would be hard to find a superior option at that price or even at $600 today?
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Let's not forget that most "audiophiles" (which was the classification in the title of the thread) don't want to buy their speakers amongst the unwashed. For real equipment fanatics this would be unaceptable. Think cars; there's a difference between a Hyundai and a restored '57 Chevy...and in some circles there's certainly more esprit de corps and status in the latter.
Also, from a supply-side you have to have the production capability to insure timely replenshment to the retailer. That's an awful lot of specialized product to fill the shelves of several thousand B&Ms.
...and all that stuff Woochie said too.
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Nope. Am I the only one that's noticed that once a "High End" product hits the mass market----it turns into "run-of-the-mill"? And that's not being "snobby", it's just being realistic. "Mass Market" generally means huge volumes of mediocre (Quickly and cheaply made.) products sold at low prices. "High End" generally means limited production, with extra care taken in design and manufacture, using premium, close tolerance parts.
You can keep costs down somewhat by manufacturing overseas, but high end gear is still going to be more expensive than mass market.
Now, I'm not saying that the mid-level of the industry hasn't made good gear. They certainly have, and at a price more folks can afford. And that's a wonderful thing.
But, I think putting true highend gear on the shelves at Best Buy will do little more than show the mass market consumer that the best gear in the world is still out of their reach. And do little to nothing for high end sales figures.
If you take a high end product and produce it at high volumes with cheaper parts,
so that the Circuit City shopper can afford it, ------is it still "high end"?
In my estimation, the answer is no.
Dave
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Well said, Dave. And welcome to the forums.
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Originally Posted by dread31
Nope. Am I the only one that's noticed that once a "High End" product hits the mass market----it turns into "run-of-the-mill"? And that's not being "snobby", it's just being realistic. "Mass Market" generally means huge volumes of mediocre (Quickly and cheaply made.) products sold at low prices. "High End" generally means limited production, with extra care taken in design and manufacture, using premium, close tolerance parts.
You can keep costs down somewhat by manufacturing overseas, but high end gear is still going to be more expensive than mass market.
No I haven't noticed. What brands are you thinking of specifically? Among the lines carried by Best Buy, I can't think of one that was at any point once exclusively in the high end domain and became a mediocre mass market product.
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Originally Posted by dread31
Now, I'm not saying that the mid-level of the industry hasn't made good gear. They certainly have, and at a price more folks can afford. And that's a wonderful thing.
But, I think putting true highend gear on the shelves at Best Buy will do little more than show the mass market consumer that the best gear in the world is still out of their reach. And do little to nothing for high end sales figures.
That's why Best Buy smartly placed its higher end gear inside of the Magnolia ministores, which are found inside of select BB locations. Magnolia stores carry Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, McIntosh, Primare, and Krell, among other brands.
The problem with your assertion is that the number of high end audio stores is dwindling, and Best Buy in particular has been positioning itself within the higher end market thru its Magnolia subsidiary. It's at a point where manufacturers have fewer and fewer retail options available, and in many communities, the Magnolia ministore is the only place within 100 miles where consumers can sample anything beyond the mass market brands. It takes a big population base to support a high end audio store, which leaves a lot of outlying areas with no options whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by dread31
If you take a high end product and produce it at high volumes with cheaper parts,
so that the Circuit City shopper can afford it, ------is it still "high end"?
In my estimation, the answer is no.
Again, please cite an example. I can't think of anything sold at Circuit City that fits this description of a former high end product cheapened by mass production.
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Hey Woochie,
I can't speak for Dread, but I don't really consider Magnolia a part of Best Buy per se. Subsidiary, yes but clearly they're a separated entity...different payrolls, distribution and replenishment systems, etc. Hence, not every BB having a Magnolia in it.
Mebbe we need to clarify "Electronics Mega-Stores". I was thinking of Best Buy proper, CC, Fry's and so forth
---sticks
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Carver, perhaps? Didn't Bob sell the company to someone who tried to market the brand at Circuit City, et al? Did they not try to use cheaper parts to bring the prices down? Did it not fail? This comes to mind, because I'm one of those who ran to CC and bought some of this stuff, thinking I was getting a deal. It was s**t, to put it bluntly.
Now, granted, not all of the original Carver products were necessarily "high end".
But, they weren't exactly cheap either.
Some use the example of JBL as an example of this model working.
JBL sells their "mass market" products at "mass market" retailers.
Are their "audiophile" or "high end" products proudly displayed at the
local big box retailer? Can anyone go to BB or CC and pick up a set of Everests?
No.
And I doubt that McIntosh will be selling many MA7000s at Best Buy either, not at the current price level. And...............................How do you bring that down?
Dave
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When they opened a Magnolia here, separate building and staff from the local Best Buy, I thought ho boy, selection and a discount.
They were carrying the smaller Martin Logans, I think I was Parasound equipment all Monster wires. Wow, did it sound awful, hardwood floor hard walls and ceilings made worse by a collection of glass front plasma screens.
When I tried to explain to the salesman, I got blank looks and "it sounds fine to me". The kicker was they wanted full list price. For that price I'll go to the local brick and mortar High End shop and get a good setup, some selection, a little advice, a willingness to mix and match brands for my taste and a little repair facility.
Magnolia still carries some audiophile stuff, but they want to sell you HDTV , they've got hundreds of them, lousy prices. Oh yeah serious overpriced car audio all bass and tweet, never heard of midrange.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
When they opened a Magnolia here, separate building and staff from the local Best Buy, I thought ho boy, selection and a discount.
They were carrying the smaller Martin Logans, I think I was Parasound equipment all Monster wires. Wow, did it sound awful, hardwood floor hard walls and ceilings made worse by a collection of glass front plasma screens.
When I tried to explain to the salesman, I got blank looks and "it sounds fine to me". The kicker was they wanted full list price. For that price I'll go to the local brick and mortar High End shop and get a good setup, some selection, a little advice, a willingness to mix and match brands for my taste and a little repair facility.
Magnolia still carries some audiophile stuff, but they want to sell you HDTV , they've got hundreds of them, lousy prices. Oh yeah serious overpriced car audio all bass and tweet, never heard of midrange.
Yep. me too. Honestly, I wouldn't mind paying a little more just for the better service and the opportunity to talk to someone who knows what the heck he (Or she) is talking about.
Don't know about the rest of you folks, but I, for one, am tired of putting up with crappiness in the name of saving few sheckels.
Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dread31
Carver, perhaps? Didn't Bob sell the company to someone who tried to market the brand at Circuit City, et al? Did they not try to use cheaper parts to bring the prices down? Did it not fail? This comes to mind, because I'm one of those who ran to CC and bought some of this stuff, thinking I was getting a deal. It was s**t, to put it bluntly.
Now, granted, not all of the original Carver products were necessarily "high end".
But, they weren't exactly cheap either.
That's one example, and one that does not apply to the current business model for CC or BB.
The Carvers that were sold at CC were the same ones that were carried by the local high end salons, albeit a more limited selection of models. They did not use cheaper parts -- Carvers were just badly designed from the outset.
Their so-called magnetic field amps were banned for retail sale in L.A. County by the Fire Marshall because they failed the UL certification tests. That capacitor-less design ran cool and produced huge wattage numbers (the 5 lb. cube amp could be monobridged to output 400 watts on a test bench), but it was also a fire hazard of the highest order and not the best sounding amp in its price range. Carver wound up going in an entirely different direction thereafter with a full lineup of tube and hybrid gear (which I recall came about well after Circuit City dropped the line), which was much better received than their more gimmicky magnetic field amps.
The Circuit City deal happened way before Bob Carver sold the company. Bob Carver went on to start up Sunfire, which is still around.
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Originally Posted by dread31
Some use the example of JBL as an example of this model working.
JBL sells their "mass market" products at "mass market" retailers.
Are their "audiophile" or "high end" products proudly displayed at the
local big box retailer? Can anyone go to BB or CC and pick up a set of Everests?
Read my earlier posts. JBL continues to make high end products, but they always made a full lineup that went from the entry level all the way up to the high end. JBL's problem is that they no longer have a U.S. dealer network in place that sells those products. Dealers dropped them in droves when they began selling their entry level products in big box stores. JBL did not start making inferior versions of their high end products, they merely went into stores that would not carry their high end lines.
Your assertion was that once a brand goes mass market, everything gets mass produced and their quality takes a hit. I just don't it.
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Originally Posted by dread31
And I doubt that McIntosh will be selling many MA7000s at Best Buy either, not at the current price level. And...............................How do you bring that down?
The Magnolia mini stores inside of Best Buy allow you to special order anything that the standalone Magnolia stores carry (at least the ones in my area do), which includes the full McIntosh lineup, as well as B&K, Primare, Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, and Sonus Faber. Not sure about Krell, but those are carried by the standalone Magnolia stores as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
When they opened a Magnolia here, separate building and staff from the local Best Buy, I thought ho boy, selection and a discount.
They were carrying the smaller Martin Logans, I think I was Parasound equipment all Monster wires. Wow, did it sound awful, hardwood floor hard walls and ceilings made worse by a collection of glass front plasma screens.
When I tried to explain to the salesman, I got blank looks and "it sounds fine to me". The kicker was they wanted full list price. For that price I'll go to the local brick and mortar High End shop and get a good setup, some selection, a little advice, a willingness to mix and match brands for my taste and a little repair facility.
Magnolia still carries some audiophile stuff, but they want to sell you HDTV , they've got hundreds of them, lousy prices. Oh yeah serious overpriced car audio all bass and tweet, never heard of midrange.
The emphasis at the Magnolia ministores is home theater. That's why you don't see any two-channel gear on display. Frankly, I'm surprised that the demo room at the Santa Rosa location was all hard surfaced. Every other Magnolia store I've visited has one acoustically treated demo room where they keep the larger Martin Logan and Vienna Acoustics speakers, along with the front projection setups.
As far as list price goes, did you inquire on the price or did you just look at the price tag and conclude that's all they'll sell it for?
I'm on Magnolia's mailing list and BB's reward program. That's how you get private sale invitations, rebates, and discount coupons. It also doesn't hurt to ask -- those coupon deals are in the computer, and depending on who helps you, they might punch it in and give you at least 10% off. You could also check into their open box items, since the 30-day return is one thing that a high end store typically won't offer.
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Originally Posted by Woochifer
That's one example, and one that does not apply to the current business model for CC or BB.
The Carvers that were sold at CC were the same ones that were carried by the local high end salons, albeit a more limited selection of models. They did not use cheaper parts -- Carvers were just badly designed from the outset.
Their so-called magnetic field amps were banned for retail sale in L.A. County by the Fire Marshall because they failed the UL certification tests. That capacitor-less design ran cool and produced huge wattage numbers (the 5 lb. cube amp could be monobridged to output 400 watts on a test bench), but it was also a fire hazard of the highest order and not the best sounding amp in its price range. Carver wound up going in an entirely different direction thereafter with a full lineup of tube and hybrid gear (which I recall came about well after Circuit City dropped the line), which was much better received than their more gimmicky magnetic field amps.
The Circuit City deal happened way before Bob Carver sold the company. Bob Carver went on to start up Sunfire, which is still around.
Read my earlier posts. JBL continues to make high end products, but they always made a full lineup that went from the entry level all the way up to the high end. JBL's problem is that they no longer have a U.S. dealer network in place that sells those products. Dealers dropped them in droves when they began selling their entry level products in big box stores. JBL did not start making inferior versions of their high end products, they merely went into stores that would not carry their high end lines.
Your assertion was that once a brand goes mass market, everything gets mass produced and their quality takes a hit. I just don't it.
The Magnolia mini stores inside of Best Buy allow you to special order anything that the standalone Magnolia stores carry (at least the ones in my area do), which includes the full McIntosh lineup, as well as B&K, Primare, Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, and Sonus Faber. Not sure about Krell, but those are carried by the standalone Magnolia stores as well.
Right. Exactly. The lower line stuff goes to the low end stores. The higher end stuff goes to highend, or "standalone" Magnolia stores.
The question was, "Should audiophile brands be sold in electronics megastores?"
To my mind, BB and CC are the "megastores". Here on the East Coast, Magnolia
has just recently come on the scene. The only one I have seen is very small, and really doesn't seem to have much.
The Best Buy nearest me has a Magnolia inside, and there is very little high end inside the Magnolia. The lower end of the line products of high end companies perhaps.
Special order it? Why, when there are other dealers in the area who may have what I'm after in stock?
If I wanted to order something I can do it myself. Except for the brands who do not sell over the internet, I will concede.
Anyhow, maybe I'm just biased because I've been dealing with the local independent stores for most of my life. And I like it that way. I know the salesmen, the managers and even the owners of some of these stores. And all of them know the products they sell very well. It just seems to me that everytime I go into a big box store, and try to talk about the gear, I'm talking to some kid who still has everything to learn, and doesn't really care. He's just trying to get some quick college money and a month from now some other clueless kid will be in his place.
It's not that I have anything against them, everyone has to start somewhere.
So I enjoy hanging out at the local HiFi shop and talking about gear with people who know what their talking about and actually give a damn.
My answer is still and always will be----no.
So sue me.
Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dread31
Right. Exactly. The lower line stuff goes to the low end stores. The higher end stuff goes to highend, or "standalone" Magnolia stores.
The question was, "Should audiophile brands be sold in electronics megastores?"
To my mind, BB and CC are the "megastores". Here on the East Coast, Magnolia
has just recently come on the scene. The only one I have seen is very small, and really doesn't seem to have much.
And your assertion is that once a "high end" brand goes into a big box store, then its quality automatically goes downhill. Last time I checked, BB and CC were not carrying any high end or former high end brands (unless you're counting JBL or Klipsch as high end), aside from whatever the Magnolia ministores stock. So, the precedent for this is quite limited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dread31
The Best Buy nearest me has a Magnolia inside, and there is very little high end inside the Magnolia. The lower end of the line products of high end companies perhaps.
And aren't those the very same high end companies that you presume will go through a precipitous decline in product quality once they are exposed to a mass market environment?
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Originally Posted by dread31
Special order it? Why, when there are other dealers in the area who may have what I'm after in stock?
Aside from demo units and the more popular items (usually in the lower price ranges), everything carried by the audio stores in my area all need to be special ordered as well. Carrying in-box inventory for every model (or even most models) in a store's lineup is just not feasible for independent stores, especially if they're dealing with five-figure items like Dynaudio's Evidence Master or Krell monoblock amps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dread31
Anyhow, maybe I'm just biased because I've been dealing with the local independent stores for most of my life. And I like it that way. I know the salesmen, the managers and even the owners of some of these stores. And all of them know the products they sell very well.
And I've been dealing with independent stores for the better part of 25 years as well. While I like giving them the business whenever I can, I also don't view them thru rosy lenses either. You call out the big box stores for having clueless personnel (in my experience, that's often but not always true). Of course, I can also generalize based on my experiences dealing with snobby and elitist attitudes at many high end stores. In some cases, it's almost like they don't want to deal with me at all unless I pass their litmus test as to what constitutes acceptable sound quality.
And some of the advice that I've gotten at high end stores is highly suspect (i.e., focus on the cables without mentioning anything about room acoustics). Ironically, the only salesperson I've ever met who knew anything about parametric subwoofer equalization worked at Magnolia.
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Originally Posted by Woochifer
The emphasis at the Magnolia ministores is home theater. That's why you don't see any two-channel gear on display. Frankly, I'm surprised that the demo room at the Santa Rosa location was all hard surfaced. Every other Magnolia store I've visited has one acoustically treated demo room where they keep the larger Martin Logan and Vienna Acoustics speakers, along with the front projection setups.
As far as list price goes, did you inquire on the price or did you just look at the price tag and conclude that's all they'll sell it for?
I'm on Magnolia's mailing list and BB's reward program. That's how you get private sale invitations, rebates, and discount coupons. It also doesn't hurt to ask -- those coupon deals are in the computer, and depending on who helps you, they might punch it in and give you at least 10% off. You could also check into their open box items, since the 30-day return is one thing that a high end store typically won't offer.
It is probably true that much of the presentation is up to the local store manager. I was disappointed enough that I've never tried other Magnolia locations.
Our store has a room full of HDTV another room with 5 channel receivers and a small home theater demo room (with no place to sit). A not too serious selling effort.
I did enquire about pricing on a Samsung DLP they dropped the list from $3,100 (at that time) to $2,900 if I bought the $350 stand. The set was on line at the time for $2,100 without the need to buy the stand. While I understand that there is more overhead to maintain a building and employees, I thought they were high. That set dropped to $1,700 on line the next week with a few places offering free shipping.
If I'm going to pay near top dollar, I expect knowledgeable service and advice. I was told that I would be forced to buy a new set anyway when broadcast went all digital. I live in a fringe area so I have satellite. They knew this and pressed the lie that even satellite users would need a converter box or a new TV.
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Think about the brat blowing bubblegum....
It seems to me that at one time or another, the interest in things audiophile was pretty much confined to the cognosceti, who regularly attended concerts, etc., and wanted to reproduce what they heard (to an extent) at home. Because (this is the way my reasoning is going this moment, so stay with me) greater fidelity was needed, the supply was made available. Because most of the people who went to these concerts were very well educated they were generally well-heeled and able to afford top-tier stuff to produce the desired recreation.
As the years went by, increasing numbers of people went to college and education was available for a wider array of humanity, and the base of available consumers shifted from the savvy, well-heeled to the not-so-savvy, middle-class. So more products were made to meet these demands. Good music, but not as much attention to high-quality: just good enough products to placate the masses.
As the class of people with fair knowledge of music, etc., expands the market will correspondingly refect their needs. Having not cut their teeth in the great halls or not knowing the difference between a piccolo and a bassoon, they have no standard by which to guide their taste but the latest Disney Movie a la Broadway or Pirates of the Carribean Icecapades.
In the meantime, the others, who know better will always have a market available. Just as now, with the burgeoning mainstream taking over the market, the number of goods available will get smaller and more expensive.
And then, the reverse will pop back out. The masses will get wealthier, giving them the ability to go to The Met. Increasing quality will be expected, and manufacturers, only happy to please will produce products that suit.
Only to wait for the next round of rabble rousers to inspire the next incarnation of the mediocre.
(A little too much wine here, but a thought to fire accross the bow, in any case!)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
Our store has a room full of HDTV another room with 5 channel receivers and a small home theater demo room (with no place to sit). A not too serious selling effort.
Sounds like they axed out one of the two demo rooms that typically go into the other Magnolia locations I've seen. Too bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
I did enquire about pricing on a Samsung DLP they dropped the list from $3,100 (at that time) to $2,900 if I bought the $350 stand. The set was on line at the time for $2,100 without the need to buy the stand. While I understand that there is more overhead to maintain a building and employees, I thought they were high. That set dropped to $1,700 on line the next week with a few places offering free shipping.
Careful though with online prices, because they typically come from unauthorized vendors if the price difference is that large (i.e., no warranty support, and no guarantee that the product is factory sealed or even U.S. spec). You can check on how much the store's willing to come down if you show them the online price quote. In that respect, you might have better luck with an independent store in dealing down. But, don't expect a B&M retailer to totally match an online price, since an authorized unit with a full warranty is not the same thing as an unauthorized unit whose sourcing after leaving the factory is unknown.
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Originally Posted by hermanv
If I'm going to pay near top dollar, I expect knowledgeable service and advice. I was told that I would be forced to buy a new set anyway when broadcast went all digital. I live in a fringe area so I have satellite. They knew this and pressed the lie that even satellite users would need a converter box or a new TV.
Call out the manager on that. That kind of BS ain't right, and doesn't help anyone. I know that the other BB locations down in SoCal had been staffing the Magnolia sections with more experienced sales reps. This certainly doesn't sound like the location close to you has done the same due diligence.
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Originally Posted by Woochifer
If you're living in L.A., you would not have seen a pre-Best Buy owned Magnolia location, so I don't know what you mean by "assimilation and destruction of the brand." Best Buy acquired Magnolia back in 2000, and their expansion into California occurred only because Best Buy had the deep pockets to finance that expansion. Magnolia's entry into the California market basically knocked both Good Guys and Tweeter out.
Most of the standalone Magnolia locations remain in place because they serve the home installation market where the margins remain healthy. The issue on the retail side is that audio stores simply can't stay in business by only selling components anymore.
If anything, I think BB has smartly leveraged the Magnolia brand by moving Magnolia ministores into their Best Buy stores. This expands access to higher end brands, while still keeping some separation from the mass market offerings on the Best Buy floor.
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Didn't say that I did.
There was a brand new Magnolia on PCH in Torrance, completely built out in a vacant strip mall space almost immediately after BB acquired Magnolia. It was a pretty good place to go, even if there were mostly old men in there. It was so quiet at times, that I would buy some little thing just to feel like I'd paid something for the use of the building.
On weekends and evenings, things were a bit busier. Without much apparent effort from the parent company, the store slowly cultivated a clientele, and it became busier.
Within a year, the BB three miles down the road on PCH was being renovated for an in-store Magnolia. That's what I mean by "assimilation." When it opened, it was a mockery of the Magnolia brand. Having specialists in different color shirts and having a different supply line can't cover poorly designed listening areas and the stain of flat screens on every square foot of wall space.
None of the types of mid-hi-end equipment on display in the salons of the full store were in evidence. The mix of products was a joke. Sure, you could order anything; you just couldn't see it, touch it, or hear it beforehand.
Shortly after the BB in-store Magnolia opened, the full sized Magnolia was history. Now you know what I mean by "assimilation and destruction."
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silly silly silly post.
What fine circuitus nonsense.
really, it makes as much sense as an expensive call girl on a street coner with her thumb out, tweeter tried it, look at how it worked out
for them
Big box stores are good for a few things, but for stuff you consider critical, you are just going to need to go to a small dealer, and why you would choose to miss out on that experience is beyond me.
Audio dealers dont get into it for the money (not unless they are really stupid) they get into it for the love.
I cant afford Mcintosh, or even Marantz, mostly, but I can sit and listen to them, or a pair of fifty thousand dollar speakers, and I don't even have to buy anything(at least, not today).
We have made great progress in the quality of the music experience,
the crap the great unwashed listen to today is way better than the crap they used to listen to(small steps)
And we who really like audio, just sitting and listening, well, thats what makes it special, siting on a couch in a small shop listening to
the latest gear and talking shop with the owner and other customers.
You could put the gear in a "big box" store, but not that experience.
Remember, when this started enthusiasts had to build their own gear somethimes, and sometimes still do.
They sell the essentials of life in a Walmart, but never what is
essential:1:
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My answer to this question, like that of a couple of others, is an emphatic, "No." Aside from the fact that that the "space-for-brains" employees at megastores haven't got a clue as to how to explain anything about the benefits of such gear, those stores who do have the wherewithall to explain and demonstrate such merchandise would be totally outraged to see the same gear they spend all their time and effort selling and demonstrating, being sold by some cretin at a megastore based solely on price.
Many manufacturers tried to expand their distribution by taking goods that didn't belong into such stores, only to see the merchandise sit, have their existing dealer base tell them to get lost, and then get massive returns from those megastores claiming that the goods were "unsaleable." And all of this is after the manufacturer has dumped tons of money into advertising and promotional expenses demanded by those retailers. It's a "lose - lose" situation all around.
dbx did this in the 90's, due to an arrogant belief on the part of the then president of the company, and he all but bankrupted the company in the process.
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Right on
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Originally Posted by emaidel
My answer to this question, like that of a couple of others, is an emphatic, "No." Aside from the fact that that the "space-for-brains" employees at megastores haven't got a clue as to how to explain anything about the benefits of such gear, those stores who do have the wherewithall to explain and demonstrate such merchandise would be totally outraged to see the same gear they spend all their time and effort selling and demonstrating, being sold by some cretin at a megastore based solely on price.
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I agree total and finally got a round to voting "No way" myself.
In the end likes of Best Buy are not interested in selling stuff that (1) cannot be sold in volume, and (2) requires any degree of sales person expertise or time with the customer. Price is not the issue per se -- if every day someone will walk and without question in plunk down $5k for 60" HDTV or a Bose system, they're fine with that.
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Look what happened to the solidly built, "silverface" equipment that so many mid-level manufacturers such as Sansui, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc. made in the 1960' through about the early eighties, ------------when the big box megastores appeared.
I believe we refer to it as the era of "BPC", (Black plastic crap.).
Isn't that right, Fellas? Well, those of us old enough to remember, anyhow.
Some of these brands have ceased to exist altogether.
Why? Because producing at the demand levels and price points that the megastores required forced manufacturers to cut costs. To manufacture offshore, (Even the Japanese had to move production to lower cost countries.), and use cheaper materials. Hence------The Era of Black Plastic Crap.
Now, granted, this equipment wasn't "audiophile" or "high end" to begin with. Nor was it sold in high end salons. Mostly in appliance stores, or depatrment stores of the day.
True, true.
If that is the "current business model", then the current business model is crap. We've seen it before, we will see it again.
If the high end tries to meet the high volume-low price model of BB, CC, etc. They will be forced down the same road. I pray it never happens.
If you lie down with dogs---you get up with fleas.
I still say------No.
Dave
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