Sampling of Audio Gear

[RGA]

SS amps are measured at full power where they measure best - they measure worse at low to medium volumes where 99% of people actually listen. SET measures their best at low power and their worst at high power - guess which makers chose the standard?

SET amplifiers are the most linear amplifying devices with no crossover distortion - all Push Pull designs and all class A/B designs suffer poor linearity. Why don't you see that measurement on the spec sheet - again look who picked the standard.

Most tube amps still have lower distortion than most speakers - so it's irrelevant and only occurs when pushed HARD. If one has efficient speakers then the amp will never need to be pushed hard. I would far rather own an amplifier that distorts at high levels than one that distorts at low levels. SET amplifiers sound more transparent, clear, open than any SS amp I have ever auditioned - and it's not particularly close.

Instead of reading the BS - why not listen to the actual amplifiers. Event he top SS designers in a blind test believed that a tube amp was more "realistic" and there is so much ad copy from SS saying things like "valve like sound or tube like realism" or CD player makers trying to say their cd player is more "like vinyl" which in both cases admits to the superiority of the other technology.

Vinyl has downside - on cheaps players they aren't great and vinyl wears, needles wear, and some vinyl is badly printed to start with.

I have Frank Sinatra on LP and several CD's - The LP version easily beats the CD. But then I'm not using a Sears turntable.

A quote I enjoy because I find it to be true.

all transistor amplifiers sound poor for the simple reason that transistors are inferior amplifying devices. The word “semiconductor” really means what it says and it says it all, “half”-conductor, sonically this could be translated to mean half the signal! Which is really what it sounds like. Pure and simple, transistors are highly un-linear and need a lot of correction (feedback of some sort) to have a bandwidth wide enough to be able to reproduce any music signals, they are not natural voltage amplifiers. Likewise both the pentode or tetrode requires corrective feedback to lower the load sensitivity and improve bandwidth, they are less un-linear than transistors being high impedance devices that require matching from an output transformer. Thus they sound better when used well, especially when used single-ended or in pseudo triode mode by connecting the grids together.../...we, at least understand that the test equipment is easily fooled by technical trickery such as feedback or over sampling.

[E-Stat]

SS amps are measured at full power where they measure best - they measure worse at low to medium volumes where 99% of people actually listen...Most tube amps still have lower distortion than most speakers - so it's irrelevant and only occurs when pushed HARD.

That's a tad bit over generalized IMHO. I do agree that small signal performance is crucial. My very first "serious" amplifier was an AR Integrated. It performed exactly as you say - great at full tilt, but resolution went out the window at low levels. I have also experienced that with some tube AB amps as well. The 70s Conrad-Johnson MV-75A also fit that mold. OTOH, there are a number of SS amps that do not exhibit that behavior. My Threshold Stasis is actually two amps sharing the same input and output. One is a low power class A amp that is good for the first 4 watts / channel or so where the cascode AB current amp begins to take over. Fortunately, I rarely need more than that much power in the garage driving double Advents. Naturally, I have a DAC with a tube output stage driving it directly.

Pure and simple, transistors are highly un-linear and need a lot of correction (feedback of some sort) to have a bandwidth wide enough to be able to reproduce any music signals, they are not natural voltage amplifiers.

Here again, you really need to be careful about such sweeping commentary. The Pass First Watt F3 is a notable exception. Feedback is absent because it is a single stage single ended class A design. Read this.

rw

[RGA]

[QUOTE=E-Stat]
Here again, you really need to be careful about such sweeping commentary. The Pass First Watt F3 is a notable exception. Feedback is absent because it is a single stage single ended class A design. Read this.


You are correct that there are some exceptions - I know of exactly two Pass Labs and Sugden and it's interesting that these are also my two favorite Solid State manufacturers and only the non feedback class A zero feedback designs. But one or two exceptions my generalization is more than fair.

[E-Stat]

You are correct that there are some exceptions...

I merely point out that the technology exists. Over time, switchers will certainly be around but I'm hopeful that more companies will grasp the more innovative ways of finding inherently linear solid state circuits that operate like the Pass designs.

rw

[frahengeo]

Instead of reading the BS - why not listen to the actual amplifiers.

One should be able to narrow down their search by reading Reviews and Specs, then go listen to a handful that had favorable specs/reviews/features that met one's needs. There are far too many models available to do listening tests on all. So far, some say numbers mean something, some say it means nothing.

Again, if this sound is not measurable, then how do the manufacturers ensure quality. How do they verify that serial number xxx1 performs the same as serial number xxx2, xxx3, etc. in a particular fleet?

Out of curiosity, how did you select your gear? How were you sure that what you chose was the best option for your price range? Did you simply go to the local hifi shop, auditioned what they carried, picked your favorite, and never looked back?

[Luvin Da Blues]

Out of curiosity, how did you select your gear? How were you sure that what you chose was the best option for your price range? Did you simply go to the local hifi shop, auditioned what they carried, picked your favorite, and never looked back?

Hang out here long enough and you'll realize that Audio Note IS the only gear worth owning.

[frahengeo]

Hang out here long enough and you'll realize that Audio Note IS the only gear worth owning.

How? Using the ol' Jedi Mind Trick?

So where is your Audio Note gear?

[Luvin Da Blues]

How? Using the ol' Jedi Mind Trick?

So where is your Audio Note gear?

You should do a search for all of RGA posts, he's our local Audio Note (one note?) fan boy.

[frahengeo]

You should do a search for all of RGA posts, he's our local Audio Note (one note?) fan boy.

Yeah. I'll take your word on that one. I did search this particular brand. Silver this and silver that...appeared expensive.

[hifitommy]

that may work for some here. join the local audio society or club and attend the meetings. here in socal we have the LA/Orange County audio society. we visit dealers and manufacturers and also have presentations in a buena park hotel on occasion.



the clip below is for our next meeting in sept at manley labs (free beer!). eveanna will conduct a tour of the factory and give extensive explanations of many features of the products they make.

>
Dear Members and Friends,
Coming in September: The Grand Tour of Manley Labs in Chino!!!!!
You asked for it! It's the Event you have been waiting for! It just does not get better than this!!
Sunday, September 20th, 2-5pm: We'll tour Manley Labs with our own wonderful EveAnna Manley, President and CEO, as our exclusive guide!
It's a fabulous facility...tons to see! Unbelievable goodies! All made right there in house!!
The amazing EveAnna Manley has announced an incredible raffle of a pair of gorgeous MANLEY RETRO 100 AMPLIFIERS http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/retro10099.html Thank you!!!!!!
Just received from Chip Winston of Cable Research Labs: The CRL Copper Phono Cable, $895!! Thank you Chip and CRL!! The wonderful cable will be in the raffle along with the goodies from Manley!! WOW!
Great lunch! Beer! Superb and fun Raffle! Everybody will have a super time. Not to be missed!
Manley Laboratories, Inc.
13880 Magnolia Ave. Chino, CA.
1-909-627-4256
www.manleylabs.com
Please save the date. Visitiors, members, and guests are welcome! EveAnna is our 2009 Founder's Award Winner. Please congratulate her in person!!
Bob Levi
President
Los Angeles and Orange County Audio Society
America's Premier Audio Society with over 500 Members!
www.laocas.com 1-714-281-5850 <

you may even hear something. our previous meeting was at acoustic image whare we heard some VERY nice equipment, vinyl included.

only one whom has not heard a DECENT (not spelled astronomically priced) vinyl setups will understand what the superiority is all about. lets just say that a $500 player will suffice to open your eyes. tubes too. there are many components that exhibit none of the stereotypical soft/fuzzy/warm/mushy sound that some believe is present in all tubed designs.

if after youve taken real time to hear these things and you dont care, go back to the bose mindset. digital will be 'good enough' for you. it isnt for me. i realy like my CDs, SACDs, and DVDAs but LP playback has more "there" there. tubes enhance that.

[RGA]

You should do a search for all of RGA posts, he's our local Audio Note (one note?) fan boy.

I have no problem with the notation of being a fan boy - sometimes some things are worth becoming a fan of.

[Luvin Da Blues]

I have no problem with the notation of being a fan boy - sometimes some things are worth becoming a fan of.

No offense meant, just a little dig. As much as I like Audio Note gear, and this could be my personal taste, I also realize that there is other gear I would enjoy having just as much, if not more.

[E-Stat]

One should be able to narrow down their search by reading Reviews and Specs, then go listen to a handful that had favorable specs/reviews/features that met one's needs.

Once again, the specs really don't provide any useful information because sometimes *better* numbers result in worse audible performance. Read this article by Nelson Pass on the pitfalls of measurements and high use of negative feedback.

Another challenge begins with the speaker. You really need to start here because some speakers have special requirements that simplistic specs don't begin to address. There is absolutely nothing found in standard measurements that addresses my need for an amplifier that can drive the reactive load of an electrostatic speaker. Zilch. Or that really quantifies the ability for an amp to drive the 2.3 ohm load of the double Advents in my garage system. For that, you really need to have an understanding of the amplifier's design and - quite frankly - the result of field experience. I found out about Threshold amps through a speaker rep because they were specifically designed to handle electrostats. One of the company founders had Dayton-Wrights himself and the 800A was tasked to be able to drive their notoriously nasty load.

rw

[RGA]

One should be able to narrow down their search by reading Reviews and Specs, then go listen to a handful that had favorable specs/reviews/features that met one's needs. There are far too many models available to do listening tests on all. So far, some say numbers mean something, some say it means nothing.

Again, if this sound is not measurable, then how do the manufacturers ensure quality. How do they verify that serial number xxx1 performs the same as serial number xxx2, xxx3, etc. in a particular fleet?

Out of curiosity, how did you select your gear? How were you sure that what you chose was the best option for your price range? Did you simply go to the local hifi shop, auditioned what they carried, picked your favorite, and never looked back?

Of course measurements and specs mean SOMETHING - but it is important to know which specs will give you an indicator of being effective and downright not working. The manufacturer needs consistency so that a given woofer measures sufficiently with the crossover and tweeter to get the sound they desire. These companies have sophisticated measuring tools - just because the end result may have a higher measured distortion doesn't mean anything - they will ensure that all their amps measure the way they want them or need them to measure.

Why don't measurements matter much - well a measurement - if it matters - will correlate directly with the professional reviewer's listening experience. There is more to it than one single measurement. A speaker with a flat frequency response may look good on the graph but it may sound terrible. Conversely a speaker with dips and spikes - depending where they are may be far more desirable. And Stereophile is a prime example of this - they measure everything - some of it measures to what the editor believes to be EXCELLENT and some it pretty much off the mark - yet the reviewer's listening of it has no correlation other than individual aspects. For example my speakers have a shelved down treble, and higher than average box resonances (though that is intentional and specifically chosen to operate with these resonances). On a measurement without listening that shows up as pretty darn wonky. Yet the Stereophile reviewer after auditioning hundreds and hundreds of loudspeakers over the last 40 years and a big Quad panel owner ended up buying the speaker.

There is nothing particularly great about the measurements of this speakers and one can hear the deficiencies - but at the same time when all factors are taken in to consideration the pluses far outweigh the minuses. The speaker was designed to be listened to at a certain distance in room and was designed factoring in corner loading floor bounce etc. measuring that speaker in the center of a room in an anechoic environment at 1 meter is frankly idiotic.

In fact I will use Audio Note as the example because frankly I can't think of a system that would measure WORSE. Their speakers use little internal damping - no damping materials in the tweeter either. They use no speaker treatments to curb refraction. The amplifiers are high distortion SET - this is the highest distortion amplifier type. Now you have two oddball measurements - but wait let's add their zero times oversampling cd player technology which uses no error correction of any kind and no filters - the distortion here is as high as CD players get.

You're not just talking amplifier distortion but you ADDING the CD player distortion and the weird speaker measurements - yet people tend to leave Bryston and PMC (some of the best measuring stuff available for AN and not the other way around).

And that is generally true of single ended amplifiers - the SET was not sold in North America before Audio Note came out selling on these shores in 1990. So virtually everyone who has gone SET - left something else - and this kind of amplification is beginning to see larger and larger sales the more people "listen" to them.

What people have to do is stop reading spec sheets and watt ratings. I can play at leave the room volume levels with a pair of 93db speakers and a generously rated 10 watt amp. 4.2 undistorted.

It sounds deeper more fleshed out and has much better transients (attack) and decay than a Bryston anything. When you look at specs it should not be the case - the Bryston should kill my amp - believe me I could have purchased a bryston separates package for the same price - the Bryston combo had a 20 year warranty - is easier to use - bigger and badder with the specs. My amp has a lowly 1 year warranty and plain jane looks. For me to sacrifice the warranty, resale value and ease of use the sound has to be so far and away better because if it was close I would have bought the Bryston combo (or countless other SS amplifiers). Plus like many measurement lovers, there is nothing the OTO does from a typical measurements perspective that beats a Bryston - and frankly the Bryston gear even win in terms of build quality! But from one piano key press - it was completely game over for the Bryston - if you're buying sound the OTO was easily better - if you're buying audio as an appliance the Bryston is the clear choice.