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  1. #1
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    This re. AV123's owner ....


  2. #2
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I have been keeping an eye on this thread over at AH.

    http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=63537

    Looks like the chit is hitting the fan for this guy. Guess I'll never get those matched surrounds and center channels.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  3. #3
    Ajani
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    Shock of shocks; A HiFi manufacturer involved in a scam....

    Nice to see that it's not only the big companies who are willing to ripoff consumers...

    Hopefully this will serve as a reminder to people to be careful with your money, don't trust a brand because it is popular nor because it is small-scale (and you assume just about the passion of making good gear)...

  4. #4
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Shock of shocks; A HiFi manufacturer involved in a scam....

    Nice to see that it's not only the big companies who are willing to ripoff consumers...

    Hopefully this will serve as a reminder to people to be careful with your money, don't trust a brand because it is popular nor because it is small-scale (and you assume just about the passion of making good gear)...
    I still love the speakers I bought from him almost 3 years ago. I won't be parting with them any time soon.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    That he is involved in this doesn't mean the gear is bad...

  6. #6
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    That he is involved in this doesn't mean the gear is bad...
    No it doesn't but:

    1) Read some of the complaints from AV123 customers re warranties, defects, etc...

    2) Do you really trust that someone who would steal money donated to charity, is going to sell you a product that is good value for your money?

  7. #7
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I still love the speakers I bought from him almost 3 years ago. I won't be parting with them any time soon.
    As long as you're happy with them and they're not giving you any trouble, then there is no reason to...

  8. #8
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    2) Do you really trust that someone who would steal money donated to charity, is going to sell you a product that is good value for your money?
    You'd be surprised, but a lot of people who act in dispicable ways are very good at what they do. Now, given the nature of his acts, one may well think twice about the way he has priced his products.
    It's not to say that I would buy from him, having read this.

  9. #9
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    You'd be surprised, but a lot of people who act in dispicable ways are very good at what they do. Now, given the nature of his acts, one may well think twice about the way he has priced his products.
    It's not to say that I would buy from him, having read this.
    The problem is that 'arguably' the main reason people buy from small online HiFi companies is because they believe they will get much better value for their money, than they would buying a popular brand from a dealer.... So if the small guy is ripping you off, then you might as well just buy from a dealer...

  10. #10
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    The products from av123 have amazing value and the only issues with quality and defects have mainly been with one of their products, the MFW-15 sub and that has been fixed.

    His issues with the raffle fraud has nothing to do with the products at av123. The bang for the buck on av123 products is unsurpassed and I hope that av123 will work through this issue and be around for a long time.

    As for Mark, I have dealt directly with him and he has been amazing. If what he has been accused of is true then I think he will have to pay dearly and I guess he deserves it. And if he has had bad dealings with people I feel bad for those people and I hope they get compensated somehow.

    I just wanted to stop the bashing of the av123 products, as there's no way they should be tied in with this issue, as most of the products have been created by great designers and audiophiles. If you have any info about their products you'll know who I'm talking about. Mark himself is an audiophile who knows his stuff, however, if allegations are true, he definitely has issues which are pretty disturbing.

    I know it's hard to separate the two now, as Mark was the captain of av123, but thankfully for those who have purchased av123 products, the gear they received is great.

  11. #11
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by devuonoste
    The products from av123 have amazing value and the only issues with quality and defects have mainly been with one of their products, the MFW-15 sub and that has been fixed.

    His issues with the raffle fraud has nothing to do with the products at av123. The bang for the buck on av123 products is unsurpassed and I hope that av123 will work through this issue and be around for a long time.

    As for Mark, I have dealt directly with him and he has been amazing. If what he has been accused of is true then I think he will have to pay dearly and I guess he deserves it. And if he has had bad dealings with people I feel bad for those people and I hope they get compensated somehow.

    I just wanted to stop the bashing of the av123 products, as there's no way they should be tied in with this issue, as most of the products have been created by great designers and audiophiles. If you have any info about their products you'll know who I'm talking about. Mark himself is an audiophile who knows his stuff, however, if allegations are true, he definitely has issues which are pretty disturbing.

    I know it's hard to separate the two now, as Mark was the captain of av123, but thankfully for those who have purchased av123 products, the gear they received is great.
    "if" the allegations are true, then Mark deserves serious jail-time and AV123 will (and frankly, should) go under... Separation of the scam from AV123 is impossible as it was not an unrelated project that Mark did, but was in fact done through the AV123 website and resources (and clearly many persons who donated were AV123 customers)....

    And the fact that he was willing to ripoff charity money legitimately raises the question of whether he was also willing to ripoff paying customers... It's not bashing, but a valid concern...

    I suspect that most of his customers would not have purchased from him in the first place, had such a scandal happened before...

  12. #12
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    I agree with most of what you are saying.

    The only thing I'm saying is that the products from av123 are amazing and worth much more than what they are selling for and that's a fact.

    His alleged ripoffs in no way affect the quality of the products that were sold at av123. Were his profit margins too small and did he have to resort to scams to fund av123 to keep it going? Not sure what went on behind the scenes, but all I know is that he tried hard to get av123 customers all they deserved and more.

    Unfortunately if all allegations are true he hurt many along the way and that is not right. I am not defending Mark if allegations are true because I think that only a person with poor ethics would do something like that.

    But to say their products are of not good quality and not worth the money because he had some shaddy dealings on the side, even if they were done while he was working at or through av123, is not right.

    I agree that many people would not buy from him if they knew the allegations before hand. I just hope that av123 can distance themselves from Mark and that they can still keep their business alive and be able to continue providing customers with great products and service. I know they will have difficult times ahead because av123 will be associated with MLS and that's too bad, because they had a good thing going.

  13. #13
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by devuonoste
    I agree with most of what you are saying.

    The only thing I'm saying is that the products from av123 are amazing and worth much more than what they are selling for and that's a fact.

    His alleged ripoffs in no way affect the quality of the products that were sold at av123. Were his profit margins too small and did he have to resort to scams to fund av123 to keep it going? Not sure what went on behind the scenes, but all I know is that he tried hard to get av123 customers all they deserved and more.

    Unfortunately if all allegations are true he hurt many along the way and that is not right. I am not defending Mark if allegations are true because I think that only a person with poor ethics would do something like that.

    But to say their products are of not good quality and not worth the money because he had some shaddy dealings on the side, even if they were done while he was working at or through av123, is not right.

    I agree that many people would not buy from him if they knew the allegations before hand. I just hope that av123 can distance themselves from Mark and that they can still keep their business alive and be able to continue providing customers with great products and service. I know they will have difficult times ahead because av123 will be associated with MLS and that's too bad, because they had a good thing going.
    You raise an interesting point:

    Let's assume that he delivered only great value for the money products to customers, BUT in order to do so he ripped off charities and suppliers (as is claimed)... Is that not also an unethical way to do business; If he gave me a great deal by cheating someone else?

  14. #14
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    For sure, I agree with you 100%.

    I certainly am not defending what he allegedly has done, and in my last email I know it may sound like he only allegedly did the scams to provide great service and products to his av123 customers but I know if he really did all of this the main person he was thinking of was himself.

    My only point is that the products at av123 are great. I think Mark had a reputation in the audio industry for delivering products with amazing value and I'm sure that he wanted to maintain that; therefore, the quality and value of his products wasn't something he'd risk.

    If what he did is true I certainly have lost a ton of respect for him, though.

  15. #15
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    No it doesn't but:

    1) Read some of the complaints from AV123 customers re warranties, defects, etc...
    Yeah, I've been watching them steadly go downhill over the last couple of years. It started with a few complaints and then kept growing. I was lucky that I bought from a line that they have had little to no trouble with. It was their new subs and LS line that got them in trouble. After that, the floor fell out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    2) Do you really trust that someone who would steal money donated to charity, is going to sell you a product that is good value for your money?
    H.ll no! But who knew 3 years ago?


    As some of the old timers here can attest to, when I first bought my speakers I was shouting from every rooftop how great they were. I wanted all my friends to know what a great deal they could get and recommended them every chance I got. But can anyone remember the last time I recommended them? It's been quite a while. As soon as I started reading what others were going through, there was no way I could be involved with someone else getting caught up with a problem.
    So far, mine are still sounding great with no trouble. I'll keep my fingers crossed that they stay that way. From what I've read, they were built by a contractor who has long since stopped doing work for AV321.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  16. #16
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Yeah, I've been watching them steadly go downhill over the last couple of years. It started with a few complaints and hes kept growing. I was lucky that I bought from a line that they have had little to no trouble with. It was their new subs and LS line that got them in trouble. After that, the floor fell out.




    H.ll no! But who knew 3 years ago?


    As some of the old timers here can attest to, when I first bought my speakers I was shouting from every rooftop how great they were. I wanted all my friends to know what a great deal they could get and recommended them every chance I got. But can anyone remember the last time I recommended them? It's been quite a while. As soon as I started reading what others were going through, there was no way I could be involved with someone else getting caught up with a problem.
    So far, mine are still sounding great with no trouble. I'll keep my fingers crossed that they stay that way. From what I've read, they were built by a contractor who has long since stopped doing work for AV321.
    I remember when you got yours and all the positive reviews of AV123 back then... and the subsequent decline of AV123... You're probably one of the lucky ones who got it before things really turned sour....

    It is sad to HiFi brands go astray, but I see this as a reminder to people not just to assume that a small business is somehow better or less greedy than a big one.... You've got to be careful with what you buy regardless of the source...

    Lexicon produced many high quality products before the OPPO scandal...

  17. #17
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    I remember when you got yours and all the positive reviews of AV123 back then... and the subsequent decline of AV123... You're probably one of the lucky ones who got it before things really turned sour....

    It is sad to HiFi brands go astray, but I see this as a reminder to people not just to assume that a small business is somehow better or less greedy than a big one.... You've got to be careful with what you buy regardless of the source...

    Lexicon produced many high quality products before the OPPO scandal...
    You were here in July of 2007? Maybe under a different handle, or maybe you know me from another site?

    It's too bad what is going on here. They really do/did make some great speakers.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  18. #18
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    You were here in July of 2007? Maybe under a different handle, or maybe you know me from another site?

    It's too bad what is going on here. They really do/did make some great speakers.
    I've been here from about 2001 (had about 3 different titles during that time - generally because I'd take a long break and my account wouldn't log in when I returned)...

  19. #19
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    GM, didn't you blow out a speaker or something like that and had to send one back for repair? That went smoothly as well IIRC.

    Too bad about AV. Good thing the guy's last name isn't Toyoda huh?

  20. #20
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    I just want to clarify, something that GMichael said. The only reason the LS line got them in trouble was due to lengthy wait times for delivery, which is bogus, as some LS9 owners had to wait for longer than a year to receive their speakers that were paid for in advance. I know that is definitely not right but I just want to say that there are no quality issue with the LS speakers and the only significant quality issues have been with their subs. Their Rocket, X-series, LS Series and their ELT series have been pretty much trouble free.

    Too bad the actions of one man or the alleged actions of one man can cause such a fiasco.

  21. #21
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    GM, didn't you blow out a speaker or something like that and had to send one back for repair? That went smoothly as well IIRC.

    Too bad about AV. Good thing the guy's last name isn't Toyoda huh?
    I burnt out the tweeters with a frequency sweep. They sent me new tweeters at no cost. I couldn't have asked for better service. At the time, it was normal for them to take such good care of everyone.
    Then they ran into some trouble with amps failing in their subs. The replacements had more trouble and it all went south. They started taking pre-orders where you would be charged now for speakers later, but at a discount. Later turned into much later (and even never) for some people. Then the charity auctions began. More and more it seemed like they were scrapped for cash and QC was a thing of the past. Some people spent $6k on the new LS line to find that some of the drivers were never connected or connected out of phase. More and more threads were being started by people who weren't getting any replies through normal channels. The writing was on the wall for anyone to read. Buy at your own risk.
    It's a shame though. It is not how it was a few years ago. They really used to bend over backwards for their customers. "But when money got tight, they started to fight, and they just didn't count on the tears."

    The audio comunity is loosing a once good source for great speakers.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  22. #22
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    GMichael, I agree with the you on some of the issues they had but I have talked and heard from many LS speaker owner, and I'm one of them, yes I'm biassed but I have only heard of the issue with the drivers not being hooked up ONE time. With anything you buy there's always the chance that someone made a mistake. Obviously some mixup happend with that order but thankfully, that doesn't happen very often.


    I know av123 has a tough time ahead but I think they will distance themselves from MLS and in the future I hope they will be a force to be reckoned with. I know there's not a lot of confidence in them now, which is understandable, due to the issues at hand and I don't expect many will buy from them, and I will surely wait until the smoke has cleared and hopefully it does, because it would be nice to have av123 around so they can expand on the many thousand happy customers they have had up until these issues with MLS.

  23. #23
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    Also forgot to mention that I have the Rocket Line, the LS line, the X-series line and I have never had any problems and have had the best customer service I have ever had and I know there are thousands like me that feel the same way. I do feel bad for some that may not have had the same experience and I think they are mainly MFW owners but most of that has been remedied and I hear nothing but good things about the performance of the MFW. I don't have an MFW but if the issues are definitely behind them then I may purchase down the road.

    I'm certainly not going to spend my money until these issues with MLS have been cleared up and I hope the av123 bashing will be kept to a minimum because really the issue at hand is his alleged fraudulent actions and NOT the quality of the products with av123.

  24. #24
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devuonoste
    GMichael, I agree with the you on some of the issues they had but I have talked and heard from many LS speaker owner, and I'm one of them, yes I'm biassed but I have only heard of the issue with the drivers not being hooked up ONE time. With anything you buy there's always the chance that someone made a mistake. Obviously some mixup happend with that order but thankfully, that doesn't happen very often.


    I know av123 has a tough time ahead but I think they will distance themselves from MLS and in the future I hope they will be a force to be reckoned with. I know there's not a lot of confidence in them now, which is understandable, due to the issues at hand and I don't expect many will buy from them, and I will surely wait until the smoke has cleared and hopefully it does, because it would be nice to have av123 around so they can expand on the many thousand happy customers they have had up until these issues with MLS.
    I've read some great reviews on the LS line. My guess is that the LS4 (I think that was the smaller ones) would be about the closest I could get to matching my Mini's for surround. Still, not the same though.
    Did you get the PR finish? I love those.
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  25. #25
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    Is the PR finish, Piano Rosewood or are you poking fun at me and thinking I am one of av123's Public Relations rep? :-)

    In any case I have the Satin Rosewood and they are amazing. The LS4's have not been created yet, or are not available to customers yet, as far as I know. Not sure how they would be with the Mini's although it would be funny to have a speaker that is probably more dynamic and impactful than the mini for surround duty.

    Obviously you're not going to be in the market for av123 products now but in the future if they are still around and these issues behind them, which I hope happens, I would call Kyle and he can let you know what your best option is. If you're just poking fun disregard my comments. :-)

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