Pssst, letting you in on a little secret: You Don't Need a CD Player!

[Florian]

Well Mike, the answere is simple!

0 and 1's are not always 0 and 1's.

I heard for myself first a CD on a Krell KPS20T and then using the same cables, the same DAC etc... we switched to the Goldmund Mimesis CD36 and the difference was night and day. NIGHT AND DAY!!!

How can this be when all 0 and 1's are the same?

I dont know, but there is a huge difference and one day you might experience the same. And this is the reason why E-Stat, Joe, Bernd, myself etc... know what we seek and why we seek it.

-Flo

[JoeE SP9]

One problem I didn't mention is the unreliability of Windows itself. As long as Windows is prone to lockups freezes and blue screens of death it is unusable for me as a music server system. I am looking into building a Linux box to try this. Burning CD's that I already have to DVD-R's seems kind of redundant. If you're getting rid of the CD's I understand. I am in the market for used CD's. State title and price.

[Florian]

LOL....I have ZERO problems with my Windows box :-) Did you cheap out on the hardware and ram? ;-)

But i still use my CDP and TT

[JoeE SP9]

Well Mike, the answere is simple!

0 and 1's are not always 0 and 1's.

I heard for myself first a CD on a Krell KPS20T and then using the same cables, the same DAC etc... we switched to the Goldmund Mimesis CD36 and the difference was night and day. NIGHT AND DAY!!!

How can this be when all 0 and 1's are the same?

I dont know, but there is a huge difference and one day you might experience the same. And this is the reason why E-Stat, Joe, Bernd, myself etc... know what we seek and why we seek it.

-Flo

I agree with you 100% Flo. I'm an engineer and I hear things my education and experience tell me should not be. That's why my motto is "The ears decide". Sometimes I think that should say her ears decide. Some of the most accurate observations of sound quality have come from my own mother and my ladyfriends. They don't care about the gear but the sound is very important. When they stop telling you to turn it down you're on the right track going in the right direction.

[Mike Anderson]

One problem I didn't mention is the unreliability of Windows itself. As long as Windows is prone to lockups freezes and blue screens of death it is unusable for me as a music server system.

These days, Windows is pretty stable. I can't remember the last time my computer locked up or gave me a blue screen.

Burning CD's that I already have to DVD-R's seems kind of redundant.

You've obviously never had to rip and tag 800 CDs!

Plus, I live in earthquake country, so I like to have one copy of my stuff stored off-site.

[Feanor]

...
Please remember that most people simply don't have that kind of money to drop on a CD player or DAC. People have families, mortgages, kids who want to go to college, retirement funds, etc, and vew few of us can afford to indulge our hobbies to that degree. It's hard enough for me to justify a Benchmark, the Pathos Logos and Maggies.
...

I'm one of those people with a dozen other, high-demand priorities. But there's something else too. Like I said a while ago, I'm utilitarian by nature as well as by necessity -- I can't ignore diminishing returns.

And there's more. My hi-fi objective is to grow and enjoy my music collection. For me it's not just about perfectionist sound. Yes, I love great sound but I can accept certain compromises. So maybe my Audiophile USB doesn't have the greatest DAC in the world, but it's good enough. The Audiophile USB + external hard drive + USB hub + cables = $450: I could afford that

Then again on my modest $8k main system I really cannot hear the difference between my computer configuration and my, albeit modest, CDP. For the convenience and power gained, the "compromise", (effectively none), is well worth it. .

[PHiX]

I agree with you 100% Flo. I'm an engineer and I hear things my education and experience tell me should not be. That's why my motto is "The ears decide". Sometimes I think that should say her ears decide. Some of the most accurate observations of sound quality have come from my own mother and my ladyfriends. They don't care about the gear but the sound is very important. When they stop telling you to turn it down you're on the right track going in the right direction.

Apparantly women do have better ears than men, men just want to have the best toys technically, but women are the ones who can really tell the difference since their ears can handle a larger frequency range.

[Feanor]

Well Mike, the answere is simple!

0 and 1's are not always 0 and 1's.

I heard for myself first a CD on a Krell KPS20T and then using the same cables, the same DAC etc... we switched to the Goldmund Mimesis CD36 and the difference was night and day. NIGHT AND DAY!!!
...

-Flo

One man's night-and-day is another man's twilight.

[Florian]

To Feanor;

Noone is arguing against the SB or against a computer music server. But to claim that the SB will eliminate a good CD Player and that "I" as an example could improve my sound "sonically" by using a computer based player is laughable and arguable.

I have nothing agains the SB, but on my personal system and my parents system the differences between CD Transports is quite big! And 0 and 1's do not sound the same :-)

So, i encourage the SB and the capabilitys or a PC/Mac based system but it will not replace a good cd player in all systems.

-Flo

[Florian]

One man's night-and-day is another man's twilight.

Yes, but then i was not the one who talked about a pc/mac based music server in absolute terms ;-)

[shokhead]

Apparantly women do have better ears than men, men just want to have the best toys technically, but women are the ones who can really tell the difference since their ears can handle a larger frequency range.

You mean they are not human?

[ericl]

Florian,

What type of PC Audio hardware did you use to come to the conclusion that pc audio is inferior? as you know, it is key. internal soundcards won't do it. There are many USB-DACs starting to come out (you might try wavelength audio's brick). There are also high options for converting USB to SP/DIF for use with your own DAC (empirical audio - heard incredible resolution at his display at CES ).

Also, you have to bypass window's kmixer for best sound. This requires special hardware and drivers, not available with typical soundcards...

[Mike Anderson]

Here's the thread I posted on the other Forum about this topic:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670

Of course these folks may be biased towards the Squeezebox, but they're also very smart technically.

Suffice it to say so far that you can do very, very good with a good DAC. Whether it's the equivalent of a $10k CD player can be debated, but even there the differences must be extremely subtle.

[Florian]

Aaah, this is getting tiresome. As soon as someone doesnt agree with others it is talked to death. Everyone ignores the experience that Joe and I had, that just the xchange of CD Transports transformed the sound. If changing from a Krell KP20T to a Goldmund CD36 had a very audible difference in sound, and all they do is read 0 and 1's then something is going on!

We used the Tag McLaren AVR32 with 192khz dacs. The Apple Ibook ran the wireless connection to a MC Airport and then digitally straight into the Tag McLaren. That Tag is way above any preamp used by our members with PC based audio storage. The CD where ripped in pure uncompressed format. We used CDex for the Job and then compared them to normal CD's using the VRDS T-1 Transport also into the Tag McLaren.

The difference was obvious in the soundstage depth, micro details and harmonic correctness. Something simply didnt sound right. Speakers used where Apogee Scinitllas. Arguably one of the absolut highest resolution speaker on this planet.

-Flo

[Florian]

Here's the thread I posted on the other Forum about this topic:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670

Of course these folks may be biased towards the Squeezebox, but they're also very smart technically.

Suffice it to say so far that you can do very, very good with a good DAC. Whether it's the equivalent of a $10k CD player can be debated, but even there the differences must be extremely subtle.

You guys do not understand. We dont care about the technical aspect, as Joe as an Eng. said, he heard differences eventough there shouldnt be any technically. So have i, and my friends. We dont need Technical Mumbo Jumbo, all we need is high resolution equipment and good ears.

And thats the end for me on this issue.

-Flo

[ericl]

Aaah, this is getting tiresome. As soon as someone doesnt agree with others it is talked to death. Everyone ignores the experience that Joe and I had, that just the xchange of CD Transports transformed the sound. If changing from a Krell KP20T to a Goldmund CD36 had a very audible difference in sound, and all they do is read 0 and 1's then something is going on!

We used the Tag McLaren AVR32 with 192khz dacs. The Apple Ibook ran the wireless connection to a MC Airport and then digitally straight into the Tag McLaren. That Tag is way above any preamp used by our members with PC based audio storage. The CD where ripped in pure uncompressed format. We used CDex for the Job and then compared them to normal CD's using the VRDS T-1 Transport also into the Tag McLaren.

The difference was obvious in the soundstage depth, micro details and harmonic correctness. Something simply didnt sound right. Speakers used where Apogee Scinitllas.

-Flo

So you're comparing an unmodified, $129 airport express to a Krell transport?? Sure, those are very comparable products.

[ericl]

And thats the end for me on this issue.

-Flo

Yes, first get some experience on the subject and we can talk about it more. Your traditional gear is expensive, but that doesn't mean you have any idea of what you're talking about when it comes to different subjects.

[Florian]

So you're comparing an unmodified, $129 airport express to a Krell transport?? Sure, those are very comparable products.

No, you and the others are comparing it. I said right from the start that these are not compareable, not price wise and performance wiese either. But you guys cant accept that and argue with me that this SB is soo good that i can forget my CDP.

And that is simply wrong!

[Florian]

Yes, first get some experience on the subject and we can talk about it more. Your traditional gear is expensive, but that doesn't mean you have any idea of what you're talking about when it comes to different subjects.

I wouldnt start about network technology and computers with me, if i where you with all respects. I have been featured twice in germanys PC Games and PC Picture with my Phase Change cooling and Watercooled Designs. I designed the Network used by Zettler (Germanys largest Calander maker, CBL Chemical Laboratorys and Eisele Enviromental Protection). I know what i am talking about, and i said multiple times that i welcome this design but it cannot replace my equipment, no matter how fancy these designs are.

And Joe agrees with me too, you are the ones who cannot accept the fact that there are differences in reading out CD's, and if a Krell and Golmund get different read outs then so will the PC CD Rom.

Simple!

[ericl]

I wouldnt start about network technology and computers with me, if i where you with all respects. I have been featured twice in germanys PC Games and PC Picture with my Phase Change cooling and Watercooled Designs. I know what i am talking about, and i said multiple times that i welcome this design but it cannot replace my equipment, no matter how fancy these designs are.

And Joe agrees with me too, you are the ones who cannot accept the fact that there are differences in reading out CD's, and if a Krell and Golmund get different read outs then so will the PC CD Rom.

Simple!

Of course I accept that there are differences. I disagree with the rest of the group on this and many subjects. This is the whole point behind why computer audio is better. You are no longer reading the data off the CD, the point at which jitter is often introduced. The argument for PC audio is that, done right, it is the most jitter free transport available. And it is easier to do it for less money than with a CD.

Also, experience with "water-cooled PCs" still doesn't equal PC audio hardware experience. Funny, you use our inexperience with ultra high end equipment to beat us over the head day in day out, but now, your experience with networking (??) means you are an authority on PC Audio? Can you explain that to me?

You need a high-end USB-SP/DIF converter or better yet, a USB-i2S-DAC and to bypass windows mixer to really hear what PC audio is capable of.

read
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/frComputer_Audio.html (you should try one of his products)
http://wavelengthaudio.com (or one of his)

also, stop acting like a pompous jackass for once in your life.

cheers

eric

[Florian]

Funny how the only people on this forum who have this problem with me are the once who are against high priced audio gear. I was never against this unit, and i never claim knowledge in the PC Audio Area. You questioned my knowledge, without knowing anything about me. What would you have said if a had made custom PC audio solutions in the past?

You dont, and thats what pisses me off. You always asume, you never ask or know.

also, stop acting like a pompous jackass for once in your life.

I'll stop when you go back and read what i wrote!

Of course I accept that there are differences.

Boom! There you go! If the read outs are different from CD Drive to CD Drive, then the information will be tainted before even going to the drive (ripped) and then still tained when it reaches the USB DAC. Is it better or equal to a certain price range? Maybe! But is it better then what i heard so far? No! Practical? Yes! A perfect solution for all Audiophiles? No!

End of Story!

Addon: More pieces = more distortion, more cables, more equipment in the signal path. Why dont we ask Bernd, E-Stat, Joe and others what they think of that?

[Mike Anderson]

This is the whole point behind why computer audio is better. You are no longer reading the data off the CD, the point at which jitter is often introduced. The argument for PC audio is that, done right, it is the most jitter free transport available. And it is easier to do it for less money than with a CD.

Exactly.

And all this is in addition to the powerful music management capabilties you get with the computer (which are not even disputable).

[ericl]

I've got a USB Tube DAC from Scott Nixon and I am working on a review:
http://scott-nixon.com/dac.htm
It's pretty great. I am very excited about it.

Also, we have a section on computer audio, which needs some updating:
http://www.audioreview.com/pcaudiocrx.aspx

[GMichael]

You are no longer reading the data off the CD, the point at which jitter is often introduced.
eric

This got me thinking. My CD/R has a hard drive that a lot of my CD's are recorded onto. So do I get this same advantage because I'm playing back from an HD? Or is it a wash because the HD info was recorded from a CD to begin with?

[shokhead]

I belive its against the law to mix computer in with HT.