Point to expensive hifi?

[Florian]

There is a reason why i say "nothing happend the last 20 years"

I want a Audio Research Reference setup on my Divas

[Woochifer]

There is a reason why i say "nothing happend the last 20 years"

I want a Audio Research Reference setup on my Divas

Quite the contrary, plenty has happened over the last 20 years, with by far the biggest impact among the entry level components.

20 years ago, you still had a sizable portion of the speaker market devoted to imitating the JBL L100 (and these generally sounded far worse than the L100s, which had a very credible sound with a lot of the recordings from that era). Speakers of the quality of today's Paradigm Mini Monitor or Energy C-1 or B&W 600 series or other typical speakers selling anywhere near the $300 mark will far outperform what you typically saw at that price point in 1985 ($300 in 1985 dollars would equal about $550 in today's dollars). For the money, the level of performance that you get today is generally better than what that same amount of money would have bought you in 1985.

Even with vintage audio components, consider that a 75 wpc Marantz 2275 receiver would have cost you $600 in 1976. In today's dollars, that would equate to over $2,000 -- just think of how good a set of two-channel components you can buy today for that amount of money. It's easy to nitpick about how much better built things were in the old days, but in equivalent dollar terms, things from the old days also cost a lot more. If you're willing to pay that amount for the same type of audio gear, then you'll find even better quality for the most part today.

Also, the quality of the CD players has evolved dramatically in the meantime. The Meridian CD players that were made in 1985 already got outperformed by Philips' bitstream players by the early-90s, and if you mod one of those Philips players, forget about any comparisons to the Meridian. And let's not even mention how a $20 CD player will outperform the original Sony CDP-101 ($800 in 1982, more than $1,600 in today's dollars).

And in the meantime, let's not forget what else has occurred with the DVD, and multichannel audio, and DVD-A, and SACD, and 96/24 PCM, and DTS 96/24, etc. Plenty has changed since 1985, and for the most part I'm glad that it has.

[Florian]

I was refering to speakers in the Ultra High End sector. Nothing happend there, the old speakers like Apogee DIVA, Apogee Grand, Duntech S. 2001, Genesis 1.1 are still the best speaker systems in the world and are quite old. And my speakers actually gained in value I agree a lot has happend in the last 20 years in terms of electronics, but my friends goldmund ref3 TT or Forsel Airtight are still the best TT's in the world. In the Ultra High End, not much changed at all.

-Flo

[Woochifer]

I was refering to speakers in the Ultra High End sector. Nothing happend there, the old speakers like Apogee DIVA, Apogee Grand, Duntech S. 2001, Genesis 1.1 are still the best speaker systems in the world and are quite old. And my speakers actually gained in value I agree a lot has happend in the last 20 years in terms of electronics, but my friends goldmund ref3 TT or Forsel Airtight are still the best TT's in the world. In the Ultra High End, not much changed at all.

-Flo

In YOUR opinion, those are the best in the world. (Can't really make a universal proclamation unless you have actually heard every speaker or TT in the world.) Sure, good components will always be good components. But, at the same time, the level of performance that you can buy for the money has gone up in nearly all facets of consumer electronics.

Remember that the original topic of this thread discussed CD players. And in that category, plenty of "ultra high end" CD players from 20 years ago can't hold a candle to what midlevel CD players will deliver today. Also, in the "ultra high end" category, you now have 384/24 resolution outboard DACs, DVD-A, SACD, and a whole slew of new bass management and room calibration tools that were unavailable to consumers 20 years ago.

[Florian]

In YOUR opinion, those are the best in the world. (Can't really make a universal proclamation unless you have actually heard every speaker or TT in the world.) Sure, good components will always be good components. But, at the same time, the level of performance that you can buy for the money has gone up in nearly all facets of consumer electronics.

Nope, not my opinion. The opinion of many of the best reviewers on the planet. Who is here to contest the speakers i listed? Tell me a speaker better than the Infinity IRS-V, Apogee Grand/DIVA, Gensis 1.1 or ML Statment E2? Or who is here to contest a Goldmund Ref3 or a Forsel Airtight?

-Flo

PS: I stick by my opinion, nothing really changed exept a few more filters and faster dacs.

[Geoffcin]

Nope, not my opinion. The opinion of many of the best reviewers on the planet. Who is here to contest the speakers i listed? Tell me a speaker better than the Infinity IRS-V, Apogee Grand/DIVA, Gensis 1.1 or ML Statment E2? Or who is here to contest a Goldmund Ref3 or a Forsel Airtight?

-Flo

PS: I stick by my opinion, nothing really changed exept a few more filters and faster dacs.

You seem to be mistaking size with quality. Speakers like the Infinity IRS-V were NOT any better than the smaller models of their IRS line except for the fact that they could fill a larger room, go a couple of Hz lower, and could get to a nominally higher volume. The Emit tweeter, while a very good unit, has some serious issues, and was NOT the best high frequency driver of it's day, or today for that matter. The woofer stacks of the IRS-V also has some issues. Positioning a beast like that required a lot of tweaking. New large designs from Wilson and others are MUCH better overall IMHO about doing what "unlimited size" speakers do well.

The large, (but not immense) German made Acendo speaker that I recently heard at HE2005 would also eat the IRS-V for lunch on nearly any parameter you could think of, and that was a 3-way speaker with a ribbon tweeter and transmission line loaded woofer.

Home Entertainment 2005 show report; part 2

I've been lucky enough to see the evolution of CD from it's inception, and I absolutely agree with Woochifer on this: The idea that CD tech has not improved over the last decade is absurd, and can be easily demostrated to anyone with just a cursory demo.

I will agree with you though that TT tech has reached it's zenith many years ago, and has no where else to go.

[Florian]

I dont mistake size with quality ;-)

The goal is to recreate a life event in a room, and you need a large speaker with that. The IRSV and the emits were very critical when it comes to heat and moisture but is still a reference in many ways. If you compare the MIDFI (now)(B&W, Klipsch, Kenwood, Jamo etc...) to 20 years ago a lot has happend. But not much changed in the ultimate goal in my book

-Flo

[Woochifer]

Nope, not my opinion. The opinion of many of the best reviewers on the planet. Who is here to contest the speakers i listed? Tell me a speaker better than the Infinity IRS-V, Apogee Grand/DIVA, Gensis 1.1 or ML Statment E2? Or who is here to contest a Goldmund Ref3 or a Forsel Airtight?

-Flo

PS: I stick by my opinion, nothing really changed exept a few more filters and faster dacs.

Of course it's your opinion and your opinions of those reviewers. If you say these reviewers are the "best reviewers on the planet," what's your basis for coming to that conclusion? Have you read everything from every reviewer on the planet? Is there some universally agreed upon criteria for what constitutes the "best reviewers on the planet"? If I read what they say and think they're full of crap, am I therefore lying because of your universal declaration to their credentials? To me, reviewers are just as human as anyone else is, and subjective evaluations are just that.

You speak to what you hear as if it represents universal truth, and like I said, unless you've heard every speaker, turntable, and CD player that's ever been built, then your opinion is nothing more than your opinion, and an incomplete one to boot. Trying to extend a subjective personal opinion to represent some version of universal truth is both arrogant and ignorant.

I've heard the Apogee Full Range and Duettas repeatedly, and to me, they weren't all that special. The Infinity IRS was an extraordinary speaker to my ears. Again, this is MY opinion, and I don't expect others to share that view, nor presume that what I hear is more factually correct than what someone else perceives.

If you don't think CD players have changed over the past 20 years, tell me, have you actually compared high end CD players from that era to more recent midmarket units? Better bring your ear plugs because most CD players from 1985 were not especially pleasant to listen to.

[Florian]

Take a C.E.C driver or a old Krell Studio drive with a X64 dac and tell me that the new stuff is better? Ofcourse its all on personal basis but if you ask 100 reviewers they will definetly tell you that the Genesis 1.1 IRS V and Apogee FR and DIVA are among the very best speakers on the planet. Unless you ask Mr. AN of course.....

Question directly to you, do you think that the IRS-V, Fullrange, DIVA and Gen 1.1 are not amongst the very best in the world. I know some of you guys are generally against speakers you cant afford, but come on. Do you really believe they are not amongst the very best`?

-Flo