Next Gen of Audiophiles Hiding in Plain Sight???

[Ajani]

Some music just lends itself better to headphones. Completely different presentation.

Same thing with Vinyl, CD, SACD, Tubes, Solid State, Electrostats, Horns, Cone Speakers, etc... Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses... And depending on your musical tastes and listening preferences, one or the other would serve you best....

I really wish I could afford a real nice set of cans/headamp but I've spent too much on the main rig for now. Maybe next year.

Despite my love of headphones, I'd certainly put together a reference listening room with a pair of Soundlabs/Revel Ultima Saloons if I had the chance... I'd probably even setup a vinyl rig for the fun of it... Variety is always good... Just ask Tiger Woods

[poppachubby]

Man, I respect your love of reviews and reviewers, but I won't be lead around by the nose. It's the same with music critics, just opinions.

Yes we differ on the headphone topic. I must ask, if all you wear is headphones, are you concerned for your hearing at all? I'm not being facetious here, really. Even at moderate volumes, they can do a world of damage to your ears.

This would be my biggest point why headphones are a limited method.

Anyhow, yes, we will agree to disagree. More importantly than this point, was your original point that I was trying to speak to. About the new generation? You seem to think I want to argue the virtues of cans, but I don't really.

I have several pairs and am a huge fan actually. I also have a few amps. Besides recorded music, I am a musician and have been using headphones since I was a young teen, 13.

The real point I am trying to make is that I don't see the Ipod/headphone zealot making the leap. I mean why would they? Look at how much you enjoy your headphones...

[audio amateur]

We tend to listen louder w/ headphones/earphones unconsciously, but as long as you stay below 90dB you're fine. 90dB is pretty loud, even with headphones.

Chubbs, I'm good man. I've just finished the first term of my final year, getting ready to hit back home (Geneva) tomorrow. I'm pretty excited. I will be around tonight (my time) so I should be connected

[Feanor]

We tend to listen louder w/ headphones/earphones unconsciously, but as long as you stay below 90dB you're fine. 90dB is pretty loud, even with headphones.

Chubbs, I'm good man. I've just finished the first term of my final year, getting ready to hit back home (Geneva) tomorrow. I'm pretty excited. I will be around tonight (my time) so I should be connected

Hummm ... I think you're kidding yourself if you think long listening sessions at 90 dB are harmless over months and years. Too loud.

I listen (to my speakers) at an average level of < 70 dB, though occassional peaks can be 12+ higher. With headphones I might rarely go another 3-6 db at most. But personally I have no desire to listen at 90 dB.

[poppachubby]

Hummm ... I think you're kidding yourself if you think long listening sessions at 90 dB are harmless over months and years. Too loud.

I listen (to my speakers) at an average level of < 70 dB, though occassional peaks can be 12+ higher. With headphones I might rarely go another 3-6 db at most. But personally I have no desire to listen at 90 dB.

Hey Bill, I should have the Golden Tube up and running after the holidays. Do you think we can run it into your Mag's?

Joe was really pushing the Magnepan sound with a tube amp, but I have read alot to the contrary. I can promise you the amp will be tip top electrically and won't pose any threat to your gear. I have got an excellent technician on the case. After he gets it right, he will be doing the regular biasing that's required, until I can get my head around it.

I'm super pumped to hear your system...

[audio amateur]

Hummm ... I think you're kidding yourself if you think long listening sessions at 90 dB are harmless over months and years. Too loud.
.

I'm not kidding anyone. I did say under 90dB. I only stated that 90dB was loud as a reference point and I don't usually have any desire to listen at 90dB either.

[audio amateur]

I listen (to my speakers) at an average level of < 70 dB, though occassional peaks can be 12+ higher. With headphones I might rarely go another 3-6 db at most. But personally I have no desire to listen at 90 dB.

My average is probably only a little higher because I don't solely listen to classical, and generally classical pieces tend to be quieter over all, when you average quiet passage and peaks. This makes them less loud than your average music.

[audio amateur]

I'm super pumped to hear your system...

Don't get too pumped, apparently Maggies only sound good on Classical & acoustic music

Although I'm sure some nice jazz will sound good. It's nice of Bill to have you over. Hope you enjoy

[Ajani]

Man, I respect your love of reviews and reviewers, but I won't be lead around by the nose. It's the same with music critics, just opinions.

Which is why I also listen for myself... And having heard both a wide range of traditional speaker/amp combos, I know that headphones are capable of true high end sound at far cheaper prices....

So since both my experiences and numerous user and professional reviews reach the same conclusion, I don't care whether you regard headphones and DACs as high end...

Yes we differ on the headphone topic. I must ask, if all you wear is headphones, are you concerned for your hearing at all? I'm not being facetious here, really. Even at moderate volumes, they can do a world of damage to your ears.

This would be my biggest point why headphones are a limited method.

Using a lawnmower can damage your hearing...

it really comes down to whether you make conscious efforts to be safe... In the case of headphones (and speakers as well) listen at reasonable levels... I don't like rock concert volume levels...

Anyhow, yes, we will agree to disagree. More importantly than this point, was your original point that I was trying to speak to. About the new generation? You seem to think I want to argue the virtues of cans, but I don't really.

I have several pairs and am a huge fan actually. I also have a few amps. Besides recorded music, I am a musician and have been using headphones since I was a young teen, 13.

The real point I am trying to make is that I don't see the Ipod/headphone zealot making the leap. I mean why would they? Look at how much you enjoy your headphones...

The problem is that in addressing my point about the new gen, you are arguing the virtues of cans... Since in my initial post I made it clear that no "leap" was required, as high end sound can be attained using headphones... You then made it clear that you feel a "leap" (to speakers and amps) is required as you think that headphones are not real high end...

If your argument was just that you don't think persons setting up headphone rigs will eventually switch to speakers, then we would have no disagreement... As some might other might not and no-one really knows how many would...

As for you using loads of cans: that merely means you have some use for them, as an alternative for when it is inconvenient or impossible to use loudspeakers... That in no way means you have any real regard for them... There are Audiophiles who have cheap iPod docks and table radios in their kitchens and bathrooms, that does not mean they regard those devices as real hifi...

As for my love of headphones, that doesn't prevent me from also buying a traditional amp/speaker setup... Right now I use my headphone rig for serious listening, but I have a decent pair of M-Audio Active speakers for other listening situations.... I've even been considering setting up a higher quality Monitor/Amp combo (Revel Performa M22/Naim Nait 5i-2) as an alternative to my headphone setup... Also, many members of head-fi have both a quality headphone rig and a loudspeaker setup (even though their primary love is often the headphones)....

[Ajani]

Don't get too pumped, apparently Maggies only sound good on Classical & acoustic music

No, they sound good on nothing... and people who use them (especially Feanor) only do so because they have never heard a traditional cone speaker...

[poppachubby]

Using a lawnmower can damage your hearing...

it really comes down to whether you make conscious efforts to be safe... In the case of headphones (and speakers as well) listen at reasonable levels... I don't like rock concert volume levels...

MMM hmmm. As I agree with you on making efforts to be safe, it's completely pointless if you don't know what safe is. I have been to hearing specialists in the past. You would be surprised at what can affect your hearing. Even at a "reasonable level", long term usage of headphones will chip away at your hearing. If you really are listening to your cans daily for hours, it could be a benefit to be 100% certain of the science. As a teenager, I foolishly compromised roughly 20% of my hearing, between live gigs and headphones.

As for you using loads of cans: that merely means you have some use for them, as an alternative for when it is inconvenient or impossible to use loudspeakers... That in no way means you have any real regard for them... There are Audiophiles who have cheap iPod docks and table radios in their kitchens and bathrooms, that does not mean they regard those devices as real hifi...

Have you ever used a pair of headphones to reproduce an actual note of music from an intsrument? Quite different than replaying an audio source. Yes, you could say I have a "use" for them. At this point, I don't use loads. My K240S are up to most tasks and lately, my K66 leave the house with me.

As I already mentioned, my original use for headphones was for practising on my bass guitar. It was after this that I began to use them for audio. I have probably owned 50 different pairs since that time. Do you suppose someone with no regard for cans would be actively seeking a pair of AKG K240 Sextett, late production? For years now infact.

If you're talking about a set-up similar to yours, well of course its hi-fi. It's also thousands of dollars. You have researched well and have achieved great synergy, with all things being thought out to achieve a goal. This is my point...

I think a typical portable user, with earbuds,cansniff out the lack of fidelity. For the small percentage who care, they may upgrade to some decent cans, I would guess in the $100 range. Maybe they'll even buy a dac or portable amp, again in the $100 range. Is that all it takes to be considered hi-fi? This is where my leap comes from. Even if it's a leap to a $1K set of cans.

[Feanor]

Hey Bill, I should have the Golden Tube up and running after the holidays. Do you think we can run it into your Mag's?

Joe was really pushing the Magnepan sound with a tube amp, but I have read alot to the contrary. I can promise you the amp will be tip top electrically and won't pose any threat to your gear. I have got an excellent technician on the case. After he gets it right, he will be doing the regular biasing that's required, until I can get my head around it.

I'm super pumped to hear your system...

I'd like to hear the Maggies driven by a tube amp. I don't expect there'd be any problems driving them with the Golden Tube -- at least not at reasonable volumes. Unfortunately it will be me who decides what reasonable volumes are.

The Maggies are 4 ohms and other than that they aren't a difficult load. Does the GT have 4 ohm taps?

[poppachubby]

Afraid not Bill. It's very basic, however super nice gold pre amp inputs and banana speaker jacks.

I'll bring over a nice stack of jazz. The last thing I'm cvoncerned about is high volume. I am concerned with clarity, seperation and stage from an analog source.

[Feanor]

My average is probably only a little higher because I don't solely listen to classical, and generally classical pieces tend to be quieter over all, when you average quiet passage and peaks. This makes them less loud than your average music.

This probably true in general despite that with classical while the fortissimos are much louder, the pianissimo are also much quieter.

So since there are classical crazies, just like rock crazies, who try to achieve concert hall volumes at home, it might not be invariably true.

[audio amateur]

This probably true in general despite that with classical while the fortissimos are much louder, the pianissimo are also much quieter.

So since there are classical crazies, just like rock crazies, who try to achieve concert hall volumes at home, it might not be invariably true.

That's the annoying thing.To hear the soft passages you to have the volume control turned up, which means the dynamic passages are often quite loud. When there are people around, you're constantly on the remote control... Some pieces you just can't enjoy unless you're alone.

[Ajani]

If you're talking about a set-up similar to yours, well of course its hi-fi. It's also thousands of dollars. You have researched well and have achieved great synergy, with all things being thought out to achieve a goal. This is my point...

I think a typical portable user, with earbuds,cansniff out the lack of fidelity. For the small percentage who care, they may upgrade to some decent cans, I would guess in the $100 range. Maybe they'll even buy a dac or portable amp, again in the $100 range. Is that all it takes to be considered hi-fi? This is where my leap comes from. Even if it's a leap to a $1K set of cans.

I'm not talking about users whose journey ends at slapping a pair of $50 iGrados on their iPhone... Even though that would sound good enough for most of the mass market... I'm talking about the number of headphone users who spend large amounts of time and care assembling a decent rig (or several)...

My setup costs $2K, which might seem like a lot to members of this site... but as I keep telling you: check out Head-Fi.org and you'll see that there are more members than I can count, who own setups far more expensive than mine.... not to mention that a large number of the members own multiple high quality headphone rigs... And Head-Fi has more active members than any of the typical audiophile forums I've been on... So when you start to consider how many of them have quality rigs, you'll see why I can refer to them as another generation of audiophiles...

The last thread I read on Head-Fi was about guys who combine Grado PS1000 Cans ($1,700) with Cary Exciter Amps ($2,800)...

One of the things that makes Cans so addictive to many is because of the ability to not only assemble a quality rig for a relatively cheap cost, but to setup several quality rigs (variety)... With traditional loudspeakers, the cost and space requirements generally prohibits having more than one reference setup...

[Feanor]

Afraid not Bill. It's very basic, however super nice gold pre amp inputs and banana speaker jacks.

I'll bring over a nice stack of jazz. The last thing I'm cvoncerned about is high volume. I am concerned with clarity, seperation and stage from an analog source.

I see that now that I've gone back and looked at you pictures of the amp. The GT and most tube amps use output transformers; most often they provide 4 and 8, and sometimes 16 ohm taps from these transformers. It's a bit unusual to see one without. For the sake of the amp more than the speakers, it would be wise to read what GT says about 4 ohm loads.

[pixelthis]

Since reviews of headphones from just about all the major Hi-Fi mags regard them as being genuine high-end at incredibly cheap prices (relative to speakers), I think my point of view that they are Hi-Fi is more than justified...

Your point that "A dac and headphones can be considered Hi-Fi" is based solely on your own prejudices....

Sam Tellig's review of the AKG K701's in Stereophile pretty much sums up why many persons respect headphones greatly:

"Why mess around with speakers costing tens of thousands of dollars when you can have this?"

I have no issue if you want to spend every last cent you earn on Loudspeakers, amplification and room treatments, but that in no way diminishes the quality of a headphone setup...

Since clearly you just don't regard headphones as being real hi-fi based on your own prejudices, I won't spend any further time debating the subject with you... Enough experts rate headphones highly, that I don't need to convince you... I'll continue to enjoy my high quality rig and you can continue to enjoy yours...

OUCH!
Somebody got his toes stepped on!
I have a 80$ set of cans and thats all I need, and I listen quite a bit to them.
But "canned" music has a distinct sound, and to each his own, but nothing will ever beat a
decent set of bookshelves(speakers).
As for the "next gen" of audiophilliacs, will they ever know what its like to build a receiver from a kit?
A true piece of audio gear is wood and metal, or at least metal.
I laugh when I SEE SOMEONE pay five grand for a SET amp when I could build one with
second hand parts, a schematic, and a soldering iron.
But that is probably in the past, a rack of gear lovingly collected by hook or crook, second hand, new, repaired.
"Sigh".

[Ajani]

OUCH!
Somebody got his toes stepped on!

It's the same (well mine is probably a more civilized reaction) that you see when some clown tells another audiophile that his carefully researched, auditioned, setup and expensive Naim gear is not real Hi-Fi...

OR

That his B&W 802D are just overpriced mass market junk that can be bettered by a $2K set of PSB speakers or a pair of Maggie MMGs....

OR

That his $30K CD Player has a harsh digital sound that could be bettered by a $1K turntable....

OR

That his reference Tube Integrated Amp is crap, because it don't measure as well as a cheap Solid State Receiver...

Trying to define High End as being limited to our individual sonic preferences is shear stupidity and is the cause of most disagreements I've seen between audiophiles...

I have a 80$ set of cans and thats all I need, and I listen quite a bit to them.
But "canned" music has a distinct sound, and to each his own, but nothing will ever beat a
decent set of bookshelves(speakers).

Yes Cans have their own advantages and disadvantages... It's a matter of preference... Their are many Can users who would never switch to a pair of speakers, as they much prefer the sound of Cans...

As for the "next gen" of audiophilliacs, will they ever know what its like to build a receiver from a kit?

Some do... There are many DIYers on Head-Fi...

[Feanor]

It's the same (well mine is probably a more civilized reaction) that you see when some clown tells another audiophile that his carefully researched, auditioned, setup and expensive Naim gear is not real Hi-Fi...

OR

That his B&W 802D are just overpriced mass market junk that can be bettered by a $2K set of PSB speakers or a pair of Maggie MMGs....

OR

That his $30K CD Player has a harsh digital sound that could be bettered by a $1K turntable....

OR

That his reference Tube Integrated Amp is crap, because it don't measure as well as a cheap Solid State Receiver...

Trying to define High End as being limited to our individual sonic preferences is shear stupidity and is the cause of most disagreements I've seen between audiophiles...
...

Yes Cans have their own advantages and disadvantages... It's a matter of preference... Their are many Can users who would never switch to a pair of speakers, as they much prefer the sound of Cans...
...

Some do... There are many DIYers on Head-Fi...

It's a problem I have; the inability to politely nod and smile when people utter nonsense. It's been career-limiting for one thing.

Yes, I guess it is crassly rude to dismiss the supposed benefit of a person's gigabuck system as being a matter of taste or, worse, imagination. Civility is important.

Civility should perhaps be paramount when it comes to hifi systems but maybe not so much when it comes to global warning or healthcare.

[poppachubby]

It's the same (well mine is probably a more civilized reaction) that you see when some clown tells another audiophile that his carefully researched, auditioned, setup and expensive Naim gear is not real Hi-Fi...

OR

That his B&W 802D are just overpriced mass market junk that can be bettered by a $2K set of PSB speakers or a pair of Maggie MMGs....

OR

That his $30K CD Player has a harsh digital sound that could be bettered by a $1K turntable....

OR

That his reference Tube Integrated Amp is crap, because it don't measure as well as a cheap Solid State Receiver...

Trying to define High End as being limited to our individual sonic preferences is shear stupidity and is the cause of most disagreements I've seen between audiophiles...



Yes Cans have their own advantages and disadvantages... It's a matter of preference... Their are many Can users who would never switch to a pair of speakers, as they much prefer the sound of Cans...

None of these things are relevant here. I'm starting to think you enjoy being a martyr. It has been acknowledged that your set up is indeed hi-fi. I don't think the guy upgrading his Ipod headphones is hi-fi, whether he has a dac/amp or not. I also don't think that will particularily lead him anywhere or prompt him to buy anything later in life. We have agreed, our philosophies are different. Just like you don't want to hear about analog having a "soul", and want to see numbers and whatever else. Fine. Let's get back to the topic, the one that YOU posted.

You keep citing Head-Fi, but if you look at Head-Fi's numbers, they really aren't that encouraging. Approx. 115 000 members. Audioreview has 65 000, and we know they aren't all flag waving audiophiles. Head-Fi's percentages are probably even worse.

Even assuming that every single member of Head-Fi is a guerilla headphone enthusiast, against the population of even just the Americas.....so what!?! I think if you want numbers to satisfy your point, you should probably look at a place like Best Buy's receipts.

They have had a banner year, although I don't know how it breaks down in terms of sales. Headphones possibly? More likely cell phones and gadgets...

[Ajani]

None of these things are relevant here. I'm starting to think you enjoy being a martyr. It has been acknowledged that your set up is indeed hi-fi. I don't think the guy upgrading his Ipod headphones is hi-fi, whether he has a dac/amp or not. I also don't think that will particularily lead him anywhere or prompt him to buy anything later in life. We have agreed, our philosophies are different. Just like you don't want to hear about analog having a "soul", and want to see numbers and whatever else. Fine. Let's get back to the topic, the one that YOU posted.

You keep citing Head-Fi, but if you look at Head-Fi's numbers, they really aren't that encouraging. Approx. 115 000 members. Audioreview has 65 000, and we know they aren't all flag waving audiophiles. Head-Fi's percentages are probably even worse.

Even assuming that every single member of Head-Fi is a guerilla headphone enthusiast, against the population of even just the Americas.....so what!?! I think if you want numbers to satisfy your point, you should probably look at a place like Best Buy's receipts.

They have had a banner year, although I don't know how it breaks down in terms of sales. Headphones possibly? More likely cell phones and gadgets...

My point was fine... since, my reply that Pix was commenting on, occurred well before your backtrack 'acknowledgment' that my setup is hifi...

Your initial comment that I took issue with was:

My comments are simple. Sure. OK. A dac and headphones can be considered Hi-Fi. But I find it ironic for someone like yourself, who reveres this hobby so much, to really beleive that this is good enough.

Since my setup is a DAC and Headphones, It is obvious to anyone why I would be insulted by that post... So you shouldn't be acting shocked at my earlier reactions... Your post was as offensive to a DAC/Headphone user like myself, as the examples I cited earlier about Naim, B&W, CD Players and Tubes would be to their respective owners...

My points have all been made regarding the next gen of audiophiles, and anyone is free to agree or disagree with them as they please... But there is nothing left for you and I to debate... You see Doom and Gloom, while I'm embracing a bright future in Hi-Fi... Almost everyday I see more hi-fi products and new albums that are tempting me to empty my wallet... So as far as I'm concerned, these are great times....

[RGA]

People often say things on forums they would not say in real life - the forum is not the best place for discussion - a face to face discussion is best. The internet is the end of the art of human interaction.

As for headphones - and many topics in hi-fi - I do not see why we have to get into "either or" scenarios. Vinyl or CD debates - tons of music is on each format and not available on the other. So rather than worry if a Rega P3 at $700 is better than a CD player at $1500 - just buy BOTH technologies to the level you're comfortable with and do not make proclamations about the superiority of one over the other until you have heard the finest examples of both.

With headphones - they offer a different sound. The great thing about them though is they get around the foibles that many beginning audiophiles suffer. Young people often don't have the financial resources to dedicate a room to audio spending large on a high end system with room treatments. The headphone has no room issues - you can listen in the worst room in the world and you get the same results.

You can listen wherever whenever and as loud as you like.

I am a headphone buff and while in Korea was able to listen to some amazing headphone systems including my second go around with the Stax Omega II and Orpheus set-ups. The AKG 1000 I auditioned at Soundhounds and they connected it up to a Wyatech Labs SET amplifier.

It's simply with the headphones I don't feel the need to spend that much money but some do and that's fine.

I enjoy the more budget headphone systems because for me I use the headphones more when I'm not at home or traveling for long periods. What I demanded from a home stereo was that on sound quality it must beat the HD 600s/Grado RS1, AKG 700s of the world. Very few systems do - they need to be as clear in the listening chair and have the bass treble and resolution etc. Thus headphones can also serve as a check when buying a stereo.

I think you're money goes much further with headphones. Buy a good USB headphone amplifier/DAC and a nice set of headphone and for under a grand you can probably get to where most $5k systems only dream of getting to. That said if you like having parties and guests over to listen to some tunes you need the stereo.

I am going to the CES in Vegas - and I know I want to stop by and here the new flagship Senns and AKG's (I still wish they didn't get rid of the AKG 1000. It's not the tamest thing I've heard - but it is open and has a level of "impact" sound that is different from most cans I've heard. Butt ugly though.

[Ajani]

People often say things on forums they would not say in real life - the forum is not the best place for discussion - a face to face discussion is best. The internet is the end of the art of human interaction.

As for headphones - and many topics in hi-fi - I do not see why we have to get into "either or" scenarios. Vinyl or CD debates - tons of music is on each format and not available on the other. So rather than worry if a Rega P3 at $700 is better than a CD player at $1500 - just buy BOTH technologies to the level you're comfortable with and do not make proclamations about the superiority of one over the other until you have heard the finest examples of both.

With headphones - they offer a different sound. The great thing about them though is they get around the foibles that many beginning audiophiles suffer. Young people often don't have the financial resources to dedicate a room to audio spending large on a high end system with room treatments. The headphone has no room issues - you can listen in the worst room in the world and you get the same results.

You can listen wherever whenever and as loud as you like.

I am a headphone buff and while in Korea was able to listen to some amazing headphone systems including my second go around with the Stax Omega II and Orpheus set-ups. The AKG 1000 I auditioned at Soundhounds and they connected it up to a Wyatech Labs SET amplifier.

It's simply with the headphones I don't feel the need to spend that much money but some do and that's fine.

I enjoy the more budget headphone systems because for me I use the headphones more when I'm not at home or traveling for long periods. What I demanded from a home stereo was that on sound quality it must beat the HD 600s/Grado RS1, AKG 700s of the world. Very few systems do - they need to be as clear in the listening chair and have the bass treble and resolution etc. Thus headphones can also serve as a check when buying a stereo.

I think you're money goes much further with headphones. Buy a good USB headphone amplifier/DAC and a nice set of headphone and for under a grand you can probably get to where most $5k systems only dream of getting to. That said if you like having parties and guests over to listen to some tunes you need the stereo.

I am going to the CES in Vegas - and I know I want to stop by and here the new flagship Senns and AKG's (I still wish they didn't get rid of the AKG 1000. It's not the tamest thing I've heard - but it is open and has a level of "impact" sound that is different from most cans I've heard. Butt ugly though.

Very well said RGA....

Another part of the appeal of headphones for many young persons is the ability to experiment... While I'd be afraid to drop say $2K on a low powered tube/class A amp to drive speakers, I'd have no problem trying out a $300 tube/class A headphone amp...

Interestingly, your point about needing a home stereo setup that beats the HD 600s/Grado RS1, AKG 700s of the world, is one of the major issues that has prevented me from buying another home stereo so far... I know that the only setups I've heard that sound as good or better than my existing headphone rig, greatly exceed my existing budget...

So even though I now have the freedom and room to setup a stereo again... I really don't want to buy something below the quality of my headphone rig, else I won't use it that often (like my M-Audio active speakers which I pretty much use as background music/when guests come over - while they sound fantastic for the price, they are nowhere near the same quality as my cans)...

I think we need to stop debating what is real hi-fi (as we all have our preferences) and just enjoy that there are so many alternatives.... Nothing (well, other than money ) prevents someone from enjoying both a CD Player and a Turntable... or even a powerful Krell Integrated and a low powered SET amp... Headphones and Speakers...

[Ajani]

People often say things on forums they would not say in real life - the forum is not the best place for discussion - a face to face discussion is best. The internet is the end of the art of human interaction.

I forgot to address this point... Yes, sometimes people are more 'extreme' with their opinions online than in real life... but another major factor is that people often neglect to re-read their e-mails/posts before they click 'send'.... Sometimes what you think you've said in a message is totally different from what you've actually said...