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  1. #1
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    Smile Newbie building System Please Help

    Hi before I ask hopefully I got this in the right forum. I used to have an audio setup using Martin Logan and all krell components. That cost a lot and didn't have the range of sound I was looking for. Very nice and bright but no lows. I was moving from place to place and had to sell it off.

    I want some help building a system with a reasonable pricetag. So no large and huge monoblocks or anything. I still have bi-wire and a power cleaner and cabinet for my audio setup.

    I'm not sure what to do here. I want great music and ok surround sound if that's possible without sacrificing too much. I had an amp and pre-amp before. I was looking at a receiver and was wondering what does a receiver do? Does it have an amp? Is this receiver a good receiver?
    Onkyo TX-NR1000 7.1

    I was looking into speakers and was leaning toward Vienna Acoustics Mozart series speakers. I will start with just the two fronts and a center channel.

    Before I ask anymore questions I'd like to start with these. I will try to read through some stickies and answer them myself if I can. Thanks ahead of time.

    Regards,

    JP

  2. #2
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    A receiver is an amp and a preamp combined, obviously each has to be compromised in order to have them both in the same chassis.

    That Onkyo is very nice, one of the better receivers out there. However I'd still go with seperates. I'd start with an Outlaw Audio 990 preamp and get an amp depending on your budget. Of course you can get an Outlaw amp to match it if your budget allows and that would be great, but a nice used 7 channel amp can be had for around $1000.

    By getting seperates you won't compromise your preamp or amp, and by getting the Outlaw 990 you won't compromise your surround sound or your stereo sound.

  3. #3
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    Question Separates

    I see your point and have been told quite a few times about separates for amp/preamp solution. The model you point out is nice but the one thing I do not like is the fact the Video is DVI and not HDMI. Investing in DVI instead of HDMI isn't a great idea for me I think.

    Do you have any recommendations for a pre-amp with HDMI??? How about amps?

    Thanks again for the response though.

  4. #4
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    Even better question though, If I get the Onkyo receiver now, can I buy a 7.1 channel amp for my speakers. Kinda just use the Onkyo for a really nice preamp?

  5. #5
    Forum Regular likeitloud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenook
    Even better question though, If I get the Onkyo receiver now, can I buy a 7.1 channel amp for my speakers. Kinda just use the Onkyo for a really nice preamp?
    Don't know your budget, but there a plenty of multi-channel amps out there by the
    likes of; Rotel, Outlaw, Adcom, Nad, they don't come cheap. If you lean more
    to music than DVD playback, a 2/3ch amp will bring a smile to your face for
    much less money, the reciever can handle the rest. If your really cranking DVD-A,
    SACD, and cranking StarWars, by all means get the 5.1/6.1 Amp from any
    manufacture mentioned.
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  6. #6
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenook
    I see your point and have been told quite a few times about separates for amp/preamp solution. The model you point out is nice but the one thing I do not like is the fact the Video is DVI and not HDMI. Investing in DVI instead of HDMI isn't a great idea for me I think.

    Do you have any recommendations for a pre-amp with HDMI??? How about amps?

    Thanks again for the response though.
    The reason they chose not to use HDMI is because HDMI is such a moving target as they try to get the specs finalized. Any HDMI you buy today is going to be outdated soon anyway.

    Plus with DVI, you can get a $3 adapter and run HDMI cables.

  7. #7
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    Smile Advice

    Wow thanks for the great advice. I think that's a wonderful idea. Use a three channel amp along with the Onkyo. Yer a genius.

    As for the HDMI thing, that's cool because Onkyo will sell cards to upgrade to new standards. Which is fantastic. Not as expensive as the pro stuff but close.

    What three channel amp do you guys recommend? I want better music than surround. Surround will sound great either way. I would greatly appreciate some detailed feedback on this quesiton if you have owned or used multiple amps before. I don't think I'll go Krell again if I can help it though.

  8. #8
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    ??

    Anybody?

  9. #9
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenook
    Anybody?
    I dont know how much you are willing to spend, but you as a previous owner of ML and Krell, most of price tags shouldnt give you a heart attack.

    So you are most interested in HT setup?
    If so, why not go the separate pre-power raoute

    That'll always give you more upgrade options.

    I can't help it so I'm gonna ask here. Instead of spending $2000+ on a HT receiver, why not get a high quality Integraged amp with really nice source player of your choice? If you wanna entertain/be entertained with Boooooooom, Baaaaaang, Shoooooooone, I'm sure you dont really need SF Mozart. If you stick with 2-channel audio, you'll endup with much better system.
    If your budget will allow you to spend $1000+ on a center channel, then go for it!!!
    One more, I really gotta ask here. Do you own a turntable and crates of records?

  10. #10
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    No no more turntables for me.

    I'm very very new to the HT setup. I only had a three-channel amp and preamp for my Krell system with bi-wire configuration. I'm delving into new territory here.

    I know what a HT receiver is and seems like the all-in-one solution.

    What exactly is an integrated amp? I don't even know that. Sorry for my ignorance. I'm very green. Been five years really since I built any audio system. What do you mean by source player?

  11. #11
    Bill L
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenook
    No no more turntables for me.

    I'm very very new to the HT setup. I only had a three-channel amp and preamp for my Krell system with bi-wire configuration. I'm delving into new territory here.

    I know what a HT receiver is and seems like the all-in-one solution.

    What exactly is an integrated amp? I don't even know that. Sorry for my ignorance. I'm very green. Been five years really since I built any audio system. What do you mean by source player?
    Most simply put, an integrated amplifier is a combination of amplifier and preamplifier in one unit. There is no radio. If it had a radio it would then be called a receiver.

    The most common integrated amps accept inputs from cd players/cd recorders, dvd players/dvd recorders, and (less commonly these days) turntables. Fancier integrated amps will accept signals from Ipods, mp3 players, etc and have extras like HT bypass etc.

    Source player simply means the source of the signal, or where the signal originates from, such as a cd or a vinyl record.

  12. #12
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/a5/a5int.html
    http://sumikoaudio.net/primare/products/i30.htm
    http://www.accuphase.com/e-308_e1.htm

    I'm just throwing random brands out here.
    Onkyo 989/1000 will have great deal of power behind your speakers. But why would you want to pay for all the fancy functions. More functions usually means you'll never use it because they are useless. You'll endup paying for that. Alot of DSP/virtual surround modes will just add unnatural sound to your system. They just sound like crap. One of the main idea of integrated amp is to eliminate as much function, wires, etc as possible to retain great sound.
    If you are going to go with Mozart Grand, then you MUST go with Maestro Grand, http://sumikoaudio.net/va/prod_maestro.htm to match your front 2 speakers. If you go with something else, different sound character will annoy the hell outta you. Try searching for Center Channel question in HT forum.
    From my experience, you dont necessary have to match your surround speakers with Fronts and a center, but chances are you'll be playing with SACD/DVD-A. For that matter, you would have to go at least with Haydn Grand. Mozart will be great sounding speakers for you, but if you watch action flicks, you will need a sub or two to enjoy HT to fullest. You'll be missing alot without it.

    So lets say you'll go with those speakers with a $1000 sub. You will end up spending in mid $6000 range(all in basic cabinet finish). I'm not even talking about HQ wires.(probably $1000). Multichannels will set u back quite a bit.
    If you are not concerned about that price, then that's great, you'll end up with a superb system.
    But if you take all the available funds to 2-ch only, you'll have more options and possibly much more involving sound(whatever your flavor). If you love that Vienna Acoustic sound, then wouldn't you rather have Beethoven Conert Grand for less amount($4500-5000)? Also you wouldn't have to add a powered subwoofer to your system. So you could save up to around $2000? Ut ohhhh... enough doe to get back into vinyl? Hehehehehehe. Okay I wont go there.

    I do understand that you wont be acquiring everything at one, you are willing to build your system piece by piece and I believe that is a GREAT idea.

    I just wanted to share my idea/experience.
    Either way all of this sounds very fun for you.

    Peace and Love
    -JRA

  13. #13
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    I am curious as to how someone who once owned Krell amplification and Martin Logan speakers calls himself a newbie. I also wonder why someone would get rid of Krell electronics for an Onkyo or any other receiver. Getting rid of ML speakers for some small boxes really boggles the mind.
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  14. #14
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    I am curious as to how someone who once owned Krell amplification and Martin Logan speakers calls himself a newbie. I also wonder why someone would get rid of Krell electronics for an Onkyo or any other receiver. Getting rid of ML speakers for some small boxes really boggles the mind.
    I believe he's just new to this site. Hey Shenook, we really dont have much idea of your audio knowledge. I'm afraid I'm giving you some advise you already knew about for years and years. How about updating your profile including your current equipments.

    I've never heard Krell and ML in a same setup, but if you thought they sounded terrible maybe audio just isn't a right passion/hobby for you

  15. #15
    Forum Regular likeitloud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    I am curious as to how someone who once owned Krell amplification and Martin Logan speakers calls himself a newbie. I also wonder why someone would get rid of Krell electronics for an Onkyo or any other receiver. Getting rid of ML speakers for some small boxes really boggles the mind.
    Kinda wondering about that myself, it don't fly, all this onkyo talk reminds me of
    somebody, but I learned my lesson, I ain't gonna go there.
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  16. #16
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    I am curious as to how someone who once owned Krell amplification and Martin Logan speakers calls himself a newbie. I also wonder why someone would get rid of Krell electronics for an Onkyo or any other receiver. Getting rid of ML speakers for some small boxes really boggles the mind.
    Yep, I was thinking the same thing. It somehow doesn't gel. MLs and Krell is pretty much up the ladder. I am sure they did have integrated amps five years ago.

    Peace

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  17. #17
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    I don't mean the Martin Logan & Krell components sounded terrible. It was just a bit bright sounding. I did not spend the money for monoblocks and I got the martin logans from a local dealer for around $5k at the time which was a great price. I still have my Transparent cables which cost me $1200 and my Krell KAV 300CD player. The CD player suddenly stopped working. The tray will accept media and eject and spin but will not play. I haven't taken it in cause I thought just buying another CD player of better quality was a better idea. Maybe get the Krell fixed later. If anyone knows a place in San diego that fixes them please let me know. Please let me know if it's even worth it or not.

    I also have my power cleaner and very nice stereo cabinet. Cabinet can handle a ton of weight and is classy looking. So I can reuse that for my new system.

    I bought the Krell system and ML's on a complete whim. They were broken in at the store here in San Diego (Demo Unit) and picked it up and tried to hook it up to a Harmon Kardon receiver. That receiver didn't pull them well. Hence the forum search and the option to find krell Components.

    continued....

  18. #18
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    The amp I had was a Krell Kav 250A three channel and the preamp model was Krell but forget the model number. The preamp had the knobs and seemed so old school to me. No remote to even change the volume.

    Since then I've not touched audio. I am a techie but have not been a true audiophile like you all. I decided to get the Azuntech X-Meridian Soundcard. I want to use the optical out on this since it's way better than creative-xfi junk. Seems I need a receiver or something to handle the digital out. So hence the search for the Onkyo.

    I didn't want to go back to Krell cause I'm sure they will provide it but the system I want in the Krell world will cost way more than what I am looking at now. I just want a system that does very well with music and just ok with surround.

    The decision isn't just about money. I just want a decent system without wasting $$ for overkill. I get more good info in forums and think everyone in here are more than knowledgeable to direct me in the right direction.

    I like the fact the Onkyo has HDMI though.

    It was suggested above that I go with a two channel and go with the Beethoven Concert Grand. Is the quality between the Beethoven and Concert Grand that much different?

    If I get a two channel Amp, would that mean I could not get a centerchannel?

    Thanks all ahead of time. I can see your reservations of someone moving down from Krell but I honestly didn't know what I was buying previously and again it was a whim purchase on the speakers.

    Thank you everyone thus far.

  19. #19
    Suspended 3-LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenook
    I didn't want to go back to Krell cause I'm sure they will provide it but the system I want in the Krell world will cost way more than what I am looking at now. I just want a system that does very well with music and just ok with surround....I can see your reservations of someone moving down from Krell but I honestly didn't know what I was buying previously and again it was a whim purchase on the speakers.

    Sell the Krell stuff on E-bay...high ticket items like yours seem to rake in a small fortune on E-bay. Then you'll have plenty o' bank to get whatever you want. I've had Onkyo gear in the past and was quite pleased with it, but I haven't owned or heard any new gear lately. Besides, I'm a DIY speaker nut who listens to stereo only, and I prefer seperates. If money is no object, then seperates are "all that_and a bag of chips, baby".

  20. #20
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    He sold them back in the day.

    Dear Shenook,
    What equipements did you own prior to your high end gears on a whim?
    We dont know the model of ML you used to own, but if lower frequency is important to you, I'm not sure if any of the Vienna Acoustics speakers will satisfy you. I'm sure someone can comment on this, but I just dont think 6, 7" woofers are capable of producing sub 40hz frequencies with authority.

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