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New Stereophile Reviewer irritates Totem and Musical Fidelity
This month's Stereophile had a follow up review of the Totem Forests by Erick Lichte. Erick is a new reviewer for the mag, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading his first review (a follow up review of the Musical Fidelity 550K Superchargers)...
His review of the MF 550K was well... ummm... he didn't recommend the product in any capacity:
http://www.stereophile.com/solidpowe...mf/index5.html
That review has been credited with killing sales of the Superchargers in North America...
His latest review of the Totem Forests is not as scathing as the MF one, but it's not an 'instant recommendation' either... and it was met with a rather nasty letter in the manufacturer's comments from Totem... The review is not online yet, but you can check out discussions of it and the letter from Totem, on the Stereophile forums:
http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/s...ge=0#Post79549
For those who have never read a less than stellar review for a popular product in a North American Hi-Fi mag, I suggest you read both articles... It's great to see fresh perspective and a little controversy in Hi-Fi reviews every now and again...
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WOW I didn't know they still put out a magazine. I can't find it in any stores in my area.
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Wow a reviewer that does not care if what the says causes a company not to pay to advertise in their mag. I remember back when Stereo Review was like that as well before the Sound and Vision Magazine started and the whole advertising buys you good reviews thing. I am not saying it did not exist back then too they just were not so damn obvious about it like they are now. I mean a speaker could be as ugly as a Ford Pinto, Sound like Sh*&, and be priced higher than hell and the magazines will still say it is a good product because the company advertises in their mag. I see right through that when it happens and I am not saying all magazines or online publications do this but it does happen and it is insultingly obvious when it does and it gives this hobby and publications about this hobby a bad name and it makes me sick when it does.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
This month's Stereophile had a follow up review of the Totem Forests by Erick Lichte. Erick is a new reviewer for the mag, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading his first review (a follow up review of the Musical Fidelity 550K Superchargers)...
His review of the MF 550K was well... ummm... he didn't recommend the product in any capacity:
http://www.stereophile.com/solidpowe...mf/index5.html
That review has been credited with killing sales of the Superchargers in North America...
...
I'm not sure I follow. The MF 550K review seemed quite positive to me: what did I miss?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I'm not sure I follow. The MF 550K review seemed quite positive to me: what did I miss?
The last paragraph:
Quote:
Musical Fidelity's 550k Supercharger is a neat idea, and I really wanted the pair of them to transcend my system's limitations. But using them either as standalone amplifiers or to Supercharge my own amp, I found their tonal balance too bright and forward of neutral to preserve the magic of the less powerful amp strapped to them, or of the recording itself. The whole point of the Supercharger is to let your system play louder than it would be able to otherwise, but turning them up to the levels suggested by Musical Fidelity made their unforgiving sound only more prominent. While the 550K Superchargers could play loud, in other important musical ways, that was exactly what they couldn't do.
He didn't recommend the product as either a Supercharger (as they were marketed) or even as a standalone amplifier... which is the exact opposite of the previous reviews of the 550K in Stereophile....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
The last paragraph:
He didn't recommend the product as either a Supercharger (as they were marketed) or even as a standalone amplifier... which is the exact opposite of the previous reviews of the 550K in Stereophile....
Ah! Right you are. Comments like "bright" and "forward" wouldn't sell me an amp.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Ah! Right you are. Comments like "bright" and "forward" wouldn't sell me an amp.
That's the trademark of a lot of the MF amps under the Kw series. Anyone who's used one of them can tell you that they can really output power into the treble. It's just what a lot of even really good speakers can use. Maybe not the reviewer's Revels, or my Maggies, but a lot of speakers could do with a dB more energy into the top octaves. I know first hand, as right now I'm using an MF A3cr to drive my big CSW T500's in my HT setup, and the extra dB of treble energy really suits them, not to mention that the dual mono design can dump a load of current when called on. It is really all about synergy. Got a laid back speaker? A MF amp might be just the ticket.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Ah! Right you are. Comments like "bright" and "forward" wouldn't sell me an amp.
That would be bad enough if the 550K were just being sold as monoblocks, but keep in mind that the purpose of the 550K was to "supercharge" your system... so you would keep your existing low powered amp, and connect the speakers output of that amp to the inputs of the 550K, and then connect the 550k outputs to your speakers... The claim was that the 550K would preserve the sound quality of your flea-watt SET amp, while adding 550 Watts of power... So the last thing anyone thinking of buying the 550K for that purpose would want to hear, is that it will make your delicate tube amp sound "bright" and "forward"...
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I think the whole premise is flawed from the begining. If you like the sound from 2.5w flea power amps, then your into a kind of euphony that isn't served by power, or the speakers that can use it. Any SS amp is going to sound "bright" and "forward" compared to it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
I think the whole premise is flawed from the begining. If you like the sound from 2.5w flea power amps, then your into a kind of euphony that isn't served by power, or the speakers that can use it. Any SS amp is going to sound "bright" and "forward" compared to it.
Well said (Missed these kinds of post during your hiatus...)
As for the reviews - I can't find the comments from Totem, but I don't really think this is a big deal. If the review sort of griped over something that designer was passionate was not the case, or not fair, of course they're going to complain. And as for the reviewer, well, I kind of hate the whole process. A lot of reviewers put positive-only spins in their articles and you sort of have to read between the lines to get info out...other reviewers pick and choose a few products here and there to sacrifice so they can make a name for themselves in the review industry as a hard-ass gear-slayer, it's a cheap trick to try and establish some street cred fast. Not saying that's the case here, but I am saying how would we know?
I wouldn't make a very good reviewer. I tend to find "warm" anything boring and unrealistic so I would probably have half the audiophile world on my doorstep with torches and pitchforks.
As for Totem - they make some damn good speakers - the Rainmaker and Dreamcatcher are solid performers. The Rainmaker is scary good for the size and price. I'd put it up against my Paradigm Studio 40's in every are except bass - but my Studio 40's wouldn't sound as good in smaller room, that's for sure! The Arrow is stil competitive and sounds good. The Forest is one that I think is a good speaker, but just a tad too expensive for what it offers. Might be time for them to update their product line a bit - some of the older models have lost their competitiveness.
It doesn't help either that once upon a time Totem could export their speakers when the Canadian dollar was trading at 70 cents to the US dollar....Totem's lost 30-40% on the currency exchange since the Forest came out.
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I think it's great that someone finally gives an honest review. I used to get the mag for about 10 years and was skeptical of the fact that 99.9% of the reviews were just a bunch of ass kissing. Nobody ever said a product was crap and they would not buy it.
But, I also never give too much credit to those golden ear few that reviewed every piece of equipment with the same classical music. My hearing, likes and dislikes, are going to be way different than those getting paid to help sell gear through reviews that are more an advertisement and endorsement of a product even if it was no big deal.
Also, every product they review will sound different in your home coupled with the gear that most of us can afford. I have yet to see personal systems using vacuum cleaner hose size cabling but have heard the systems in the old Soundex.
Give this guy a raise for telling it like he heard it and not just kissing ass as usual.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Well said (Missed these kinds of post during your hiatus...)
As for the reviews - I can't find the comments from Totem, but I don't really think this is a big deal. If the review sort of griped over something that designer was passionate was not the case, or not fair, of course they're going to complain. And as for the reviewer, well, I kind of hate the whole process. A lot of reviewers put positive-only spins in their articles and you sort of have to read between the lines to get info out...other reviewers pick and choose a few products here and there to sacrifice so they can make a name for themselves in the review industry as a hard-ass gear-slayer, it's a cheap trick to try and establish some street cred fast. Not saying that's the case here, but I am saying how would we know?
I wouldn't make a very good reviewer. I tend to find "warm" anything boring and unrealistic so I would probably have half the audiophile world on my doorstep with torches and pitchforks.
As for Totem - they make some damn good speakers - the Rainmaker and Dreamcatcher are solid performers. The Rainmaker is scary good for the size and price. I'd put it up against my Paradigm Studio 40's in every are except bass - but my Studio 40's wouldn't sound as good in smaller room, that's for sure! The Arrow is stil competitive and sounds good. The Forest is one that I think is a good speaker, but just a tad too expensive for what it offers. Might be time for them to update their product line a bit - some of the older models have lost their competitiveness.
It doesn't help either that once upon a time Totem could export their speakers when the Canadian dollar was trading at 70 cents to the US dollar....Totem's lost 30-40% on the currency exchange since the Forest came out.
Why thank you my DIY genius friend! And you've touched about all the points regarding the Totem review perfectly. I can't agree more!
The loss of value for the US dollar, in addition to the prolonged recession has really pinched the Canadian audio manufacturing. Vince might have blown up on the reviewer (which is his right), but I think there's more there than meets the eye. With the perfect storm of economic trouble, the last thing they need is a reviewer picking on the fact that the speakers didn't ship with the sand for ballasting!?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
I think it's great that someone finally gives an honest review. I used to get the mag for about 10 years and was skeptical of the fact that 99.9% of the reviews were just a bunch of ass kissing. Nobody ever said a product was crap and they would not buy it.
Give this guy a raise for telling it like he heard it and not just kissing ass as usual.
Very few poor products ever get reviewed so I think the occasional bad review is about all your going to get.
Stereophile has been pretty good about posting "not-so-nice reviews" but on the whole the idea is to review products that you would want to buy, not to steer you away from crap. Stereophile has a varied bunch of reviewers too, so you really gotta take it from a guy that has your tastes. I pretty much like anything that Atkinson like, but I take anything Fremer likes with a grain of salt. Other people like Fremer's taste (euphoniacs) but that's OK, audio is a big enough place for all of us. Oh, and even though I don't have Fremer's taste in audio, the guy could hear a pin drop at the crescendo of the 1812 Overture and tell you how far you dropped it. These guys didn't get their jobs caused they "kissed ass" on manufactures, they got it because they know audio and can articulate about it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
Stereophile has a varied bunch of reviewers too, so you really gotta take it from a guy that has your tastes.
That's it in a nutshell. Unless you know the reviewer's biases and tendencies, it's really a bunch of crap. There's far too many variables to put alot of trust into a review. It's the few shadier variables that keeps me sceptical.
Bottom line is, if you are gearing up to spend thousands of dollars on a high end unit, you will be auditioning or using a more reliable source for info. I think the reviews can be helpful with a smaller decision, with less at stake.
With that in mind, reviews make for interesting reading (sometimes) and that's about it. I will make decisions based on what I know, not what someone else tells me, unless I know their preferences.
I find it funny how some guys just can't bring themselves to say "nope, don't know anything about it" or "never heard it". Instead, they will begin spouting every review they've ever read on the piece, as though it's gospel. Aside from technical specs, these are all just opinions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
I find it funny how some guys just can't bring themselves to say "nope, don't know anything about it" or "never heard it". Instead, they will begin spouting every review they've ever read on the piece, as though it's gospel. Aside from technical specs, these are all just opinions.
Now there's a statment that rings true!
To be honest I'm always fighting with myself about what I should comment on. I've owned a lot of gear over the years, but still I find myself wanting to comment on stuff I've never owned. As you've seen in the OB thread I was teasing the OP about the OB crowd, but really I'm very interested in the theory behind it. I've heard some OB cathedral radios and they are the bomb. Absolutely more enjoyable than any Bose wave radio could ever be.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Atwater-Kent-92-...item5882d86a3d
I've actually been thinking about making one of these myself. That would put me square in the DIY and OB crowd!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
I've actually been thinking about making one of these myself. That would put me square in the DIY and OB crowd!
I just read a review about you joining this crowd. Stereophile said it would be ok.
Yes, OB is fascinating. I think alot of people don't want to acknowledge it because in turn, you're admitting that your $2000 floorstanders are not a value. Personally, I am more excited about audio lately than I have been in some time. Actually, the last excitement "peak" was when I got my soundcard, and for $30 CDN at that!
Between the solid core cables I have been making and the tube amp, the OB/DIY horn should be the last piece of the puzzle, I hope. I really like the idea of spending my time upgrading through my own means. I think I may throw some money at the speaker issue just to get going, and then slowly build some full range horns.
It's really win/win. Infact it's win/win/win/win.....the best sound reproduction for a tube amp, for a lesser price by way of a design that I choose and build. Now THAT'S a hobby! The excitement is even distracting me from a TT upgrade, which had been on my mind fully.
Geoff, did you check these out BTW? A little off topic! Hey c'mon it's Xmas. Similar to the Tekton...http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT
think I may get these to start. Great value.
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1 Attachment(s)
BTW, here's the latest version of my solid core cable.
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Reviews serve two main purposes for me.
First, they are simply general readings about a subject that interests me. That's the same motive I have for reading and participating in online audio forums. Sometimes it is just entertainment, other times I'll learn something I didn't know and still others I'll find the writer has an opinion that differs from mine. Occasionally I'll even come to the conclusion that the fellow doesn't know what he's talking about.
The second and less frequent role of a review is helping find potential candidates if I'm in the market for a new piece of equipment. This is less frequent for the simple reason that I don't switch equipment all that often. It is certainly helpful to be familiar with the writings and preferences of a reviewer, but even having prior points in common with a reviewer doesn't mean I'm willing to let him choose things for me.
The latter is important for good reason. To use speakers as an example, there are well over a thousand speaker makes and models on the market right now. It would be impossible for a person to critically audition all of them. Even people who do this for a living have models they haven't heard and many more they've heard in only a cursory manner.
It is very useful to pare that large field down to a smaller list of reasonable candidates. Sure, some of that paring can be done without reviews on simply a cost, size or appearance basis, but that still leaves a lot of prospects. Well written reviews can help a person reduce the list of candidates to a manageable level. And, at that point, what most people should do is listen for themselves.
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The problem with the negative review as I see it is threefold.
1) They are viewed as being more credible which is not necessarily the case. Negative is seen as objective while positive is seen as subjective. The negative review does stand out more though. Every critic likes or dislikes products. Generally magazines will send products to reviewers that the reviewer already tends to like (at least in terms of design).
2) People who want the negative review becuase it is supposedly mroe objective may not like what they read. For instance John Marks hates Magnepan loudspeakers. JM is one of the two or three main reviewers at Stereophile. You don't ever see him review them. His tastes though simply don't run to panels. So instead they give the guy who loves panels the magnepans and Quads to review. What purpose does it serve to have JM dump on a design he doesn't like? It will piss off Magnepan owners probably, and the manufacturer. The people who agree with JM about the speakers may view Stereophile as being more "objective" but see number one. He doesn't like the design and then gives it a negative review - it simply is his preference.
The Maggie owner will be far more interested in reading a panel review from Doug Schroeder of Dagogo - who has owned a lot of panel speakers - you want someone to compare "apples to apples" and a guy who already likes the sound of panel speakers in general. That reviewer can tell you the plusses and minuses of one panel at a given price level versus another.
3) Reviews of product components are in isolation - dependant on the listening environment and the associated gear. Bryston IMO sound horrific with my Audio Note J speakers - but they sound quite good on my Wharfedales. Reading between the lines of the reviews Bryston can be a mixed bag depending on the system. Stereophile also didn't rave about the Bryston 7B - I think from the same reviewer.
But here is an example of reviewer's hearing the same music in the same system with the same cd player and how differently they perceived the results. This is a review of my CD player - http://www.audiodesignguide.com/cdplayer/cd6.html
That is why no matter what the reivew positive or negative the bottom line is that you won't knwo until you listen. The review taking some heat from Stereophile however may be good for certain people - if you tend to agree with his likes/dislikes he mnay be someone to follow.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
That's it in a nutshell. Unless you know the reviewer's biases and tendencies, it's really a bunch of crap. There's far too many variables to put alot of trust into a review. It's the few shadier variables that keeps me sceptical.
Bottom line is, if you are gearing up to spend thousands of dollars on a high end unit, you will be auditioning or using a more reliable source for info. I think the reviews can be helpful with a smaller decision, with less at stake.
With that in mind, reviews make for interesting reading (sometimes) and that's about it. I will make decisions based on what I know, not what someone else tells me, unless I know their preferences.
I find it funny how some guys just can't bring themselves to say "nope, don't know anything about it" or "never heard it". Instead, they will begin spouting every review they've ever read on the piece, as though it's gospel. Aside from technical specs, these are all just opinions.
pappa-C I agree with you completely.
There are a few guys over on the Musical Fidelity Forum at HTguide forum that loves the 550k. While I do readpro- reviews I do keep it in the back of my mind that the guys doing the review may have certain biases, just as we have certain biases.
Hey this hobby is expensive and certain biases come with spending our hard earned loot. Before I bought my speakers I read all kinds of trash about them that if I would have believed what was said 100% I would never have taken the chance, but I thought I would see if the pro-reviews where true, I could send them back within the 30 days. Well the negative pro-reviews I read where nothing like the way the speakers performed. But that's not to say some guys don't know what they are talking about, because some do. I took a chance on the Analysis Plus interconnect Cables and Speaker wire from the positive pro-reviews I read. They said the cable was warm, and articulate and detailed with a great sound stage and other good stuff. This was from professional reviews. But it was the consumer reviews that sold me. It is they whom I trust more. I can get a better feel from the consumer how gear will perform. So I took the chance and found the pro reviews as well as the consumer to be correct on the A+ cable...so I trust what the consumer says about the 550K...and the best part about consumer reviews on some of these forums is that you can email them with questions about product. I've even asked a few of my buddy s here about gear and I trust what you guys have to say. I got positive feed back from, Ajani about Rotel which was correct, I got feed back form Blackraven about cables, and feed back from RR that I did not believe about the Emotiva which was correct and I was wrong, and I got feed back from Mr.Peabody. So if I have a chance of getting a review from the consumer or the pro-review I almost always take what a consumer says over the pro review. But the best review is your own.
frenchmon
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Originally Posted by RGA
The problem with the negative review as I see it is threefold.
1) They are viewed as being more credible which is not necessarily the case. Negative is seen as objective while positive is seen as subjective. The negative review does stand out more though.
Well said...go to any web-forum and find a positive review....you'll see a few fan-boys of brand x congratulate the wise decision, but otherwise, an unremarkable thread. But say you dislike a piece of gear and you'd better be ready to fight a flame war.
The review process is complicated by more than just the gear chain too. An Audiologist acquaintance of mine once told me that the shape of a persons ears can have a profound effect on their sensitivity to certain frequencies - several dB...and that's just FR. He opined that human hearing variances would account for a bigger difference than room acoustics and even the choice between some gear. People who live and die by anechoic chambers are only considering half the equation.
Kinda makes the whole process a crapshoot unless you find a reviewer with similar preferences. Fun to read though.
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Kex
Quite true and the other addition to that is that preferences to what we hear and gravitate to extends with our very "taste" in music. Some people are moved toward the sound of different instruments musicians, singing voices etc. One person loves rap or metal another can only accept opera and classical while each will hate the other's taste. Music is a series of tones at different speeds and levels.
All that said, a critic can and should be able to let you know within a subgroup which is good and which is spectacular. So you find the critic who "hears it like you" and then the reviewer can be valuable to let you know what is the better buy. So if you like High Efficiency horn speakers with lower powered triode amps then the reviewer who loves that stuff may be able to tell you which is the best $1500 - $3,000 amp to look into while maybe avoid the one that is "dry or overly neutral" read "bright and annoying". Obviously if the critic BOUGHT such a system then chances are he likes it a lot more than Quad and Krell. Thus, if you love Quad chances are he's not the critic for you.
My problem is I happend to have Quad, a Tannoy Dual Concentric, Audio Note so far in my top three favorite speakers LOL. I'm becoming a speaker slut.
And it may get worse - I am going to CES in January 6-11 and I will be auditioning many new to me speakers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
With the perfect storm of economic trouble, the last thing they need is a reviewer picking on the fact that the speakers didn't ship with the sand for ballasting!?
I've agreed with just about everything you and RGA have said in this thread except that point... That is patently untrue of the reviewer's complaint...
He validly said that the speakers don't sound good without the sand... So despite what Totem says; the sand is not optional... Whereas his reference and other comparable speakers in the Totem's price range sound good without that much effort... he also seemed to think the product was due for an update from Totem... also valid considering how old Totem's products are... So the complaint is not that Totem didn't ship the products filled with sand, but why the product should need sand to sound decent in the first place...
I've heard Totem's line and while they sound good, I think they are well overdue for updating... and hopefully a less than stellar review will give their product designers a much needed kick in the @$$ and get them back to work... rather than posting crap like this on their website:
Quote:
Ultra sophisticated crossover
Hard wired
Bypass capacitors
Ultra expensive
Lovingly hand-assembled
Result
Non obsolescence
Soul moving
Seriously: Non obsolescence??? How arrogant do you have to be in order to believe that your product will never be obsolete???
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
There are a few guys over on the Musical Fidelity Forum at HTguide forum that loves the 550k. While I do readpro- reviews I do keep it in the back of my mind that the guys doing the review may have certain biases, just as we have certain biases.
The 550K was also raved about by Hi-Fi mags around the globe... including Stereophile... in Fact John Atkinson (Stereophile's Editor) owns a pair, and was the one who recommended that Erick try them for his follow up review...
And yes, just like all of us on this site, reviewers have their own biases (likes and dislikes might be a better choice of words than biases)... So as RGA said, you have to know which reviewer's share your listening preferences when you choose what reviews to rely on...
Normally Stereophile gets the right products to the Reviewer who will most appreciate them.... But Clearly since this guy is new, they haven't quite hit the nail on the head with him... which makes for some fascinating reading in the meantime...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Reviews of product components are in isolation - dependant on the listening environment and the associated gear. Bryston IMO sound horrific with my Audio Note J speakers - but they sound quite good on my Wharfedales. Reading between the lines of the reviews Bryston can be a mixed bag depending on the system. Stereophile also didn't rave about the Bryston 7B - I think from the same reviewer.
Something I should point out is in the current issue of Stereophile, the harshest review is not the new reviewer's follow up on the Totem Forests, but is Michael Fremer's review of the Bryston 7BSST2... However, there is a remarkable amount of difference in the classy response from the Bryston CEO in the manufacturer's comments versus the response from Totem....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
But it was the consumer reviews that sold me. It is they whom I trust more. I can get a better feel from the consumer how gear will perform.
.................................................. ...........................................
So if I have a chance of getting a review from the consumer or the pro-review I almost always take what a consumer says over the pro review. But the best review is your own.
I can't say I agree with that... it reminds me of a recent post in the WHF forums where one of the forum members says he no longer gets excited by products raved about by forum members, since every time he auditions one of those products he finds them average at best...
Just like with pro reviews, consumer reviews are only really useful if you have similar listening preferences (and equipment/room acoustics) as the reviewer...
All reviews whether pro or consumer should be used as a helpful way of identifying products that you should audition... Never rush out and buy products based solely on reviews (unless you have an option to return them or have no other choice)...
My first real Hi-Fi setup (NAD CD & Integrated Amp with Mission Towers) was raved about by various Hi-Fi mags... and I bought it after a very brief audition based really on the strength of the reviews... While it never sounded bad at anytime and did a lot of 'Hi-Fi' stuff correctly, I found it booooooring and soon lost interest in listening to music on it...
My current setup is comprised of highly rated gear on the pro side, but I've seen very few persons who have/use my particular combination... and in fact, many persons (some who have never tried it) claimed on forums that it would sound bright and overly analytical... Had I followed that advice, I would have missed out greatly...
But of course, you might hear my first Hi-Fi setup and think it sounds brilliant... then hear my current one and think it sounds "bright and overly analytical"...
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Originally Posted by Ajani
I can't say I agree with that... it reminds me of a recent post in the WHF forums where one of the forum members says he no longer gets excited by products raved about by forum members, since every time he auditions one of those products he finds them average at best...
Yes I do trust the consumer more than the pro. But one has to learn to discern what level of consumer is giving the opinion of the product, and its easy to distinguish from someone who has been in the hobby for a while and someone who is new at the hobby. Some know what to listen for in a product and can describe what they hear and feel and some just don't have the skill level to do it. It is from this discernment that I make a judgment call on the consumers opinion.
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Just like with pro reviews, consumer reviews are only really useful if you have similar listening preferences (and equipment/room acoustics) as the reviewer...
True about the usefulness, but I'm more concerned with the performance of the product and how it behaves... not really into the room acoustics of the review because of knowing the characteristics of my two channel listening room . I listened to the Monitor Audio RS6 and the new Paradigm Studio 6, and to my surprise both speakers sounded similar with the MA bigger in bottom end and the Studio 6 a little more detailed in the mids with a smoother tweet . All the while I could determine how both would perform in my two channel room.
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All reviews whether pro or consumer should be used as a helpful way of identifying products that you should audition... Never rush out and buy products based solely on reviews (unless you have an option to return them or have no other choice)...
Agreed, and I always make sure there is a return path, but with my Analysis Plus cable and speaker wire, I got it below retail cost from a local retailer who has no over head cost due to the fact he closed his store and sells out of his home, so no returns on cable of any sorts...his other gear is a different story. But the pro and consumer reviews where pretty much in harmony on the Analysis Plus cable. So I felt it was a safe buy.
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My first real Hi-Fi setup (NAD CD & Integrated Amp with Mission Towers) was raved about by various Hi-Fi mags... and I bought it after a very brief audition based really on the strength of the reviews... While it never sounded bad at anytime and did a lot of 'Hi-Fi' stuff correctly, I found it booooooring and soon lost interest in listening to music on it...
Sounds like a learning experience...we all go through some sort of learning curve.
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My current setup is comprised of highly rated gear on the pro side, but I've seen very few persons who have/use my particular combination... and in fact, many persons (some who have never tried it) claimed on forums that it would sound bright and overly analytical... Had I followed that advice, I would have missed out greatly...
But of course, you might hear my first Hi-Fi setup and think it sounds brilliant... then hear my current one and think it sounds "bright and overly analytical"...
Ahhh Ajani my friend. That's part of the fun of this hobby. Picking your own pieces to get the sound you want. Most would think my system sounds bright because of what others have said about Rotel and Canton speakers. But they are not inherently bright....throw in in warm cable and the Xray and its sorta on the warm and detailed side of things. I too don't know any one with the combination of gear that I have. Now others may not like the sound of my gear either, but it reaches into my soul and makes me feel good...I love passionate music. This hobby is very personal.....You build your system to make it sound the way you want it to sound ...and we keep tweaking and adding and discarding till we get there. Mine is set for now, and I love it...it has become a part of me.
frenchmon
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Originally Posted by frenchmon
Yes I do trust the consumer more than the pro. But one has to learn to discern what level of consumer is giving the opinion of the product, and its easy to distinguish from someone who has been in the hobby for a while and someone who is new at the hobby. Some know what to listen for in a product and can describe what they hear and feel and some just don't have the skill level to do it. It is from this discernment that I make a judgment call on the consumers opinion.
I don't think we have any disagreement on the other points, but I don't see why this one is any different with consumer versus pro reviews... If what you are looking for is an accurate description of the sound, rather than a judgement on whether you should buy the product (based on the reviewer's preference) then pro reviews can do a great job of that... For example, MF's review of the Bryston Amp this month gave a very detailed review of the amp... and regardless of his overall opinion, someone should be able to determine the characteristics of the Bryston from the review... All you need to do is ignore the overall verdict of "run out and buy one now" or "I preferred X brand" and look at the description of the sound... That's how I came to purchase my Benchmark and AKGs in the first place (as I was not able to audition before hand)... I read enough pro reviews to get a real idea of the sound of the products (since that description is 'normally' fairly consistent, regardless of whether the reviewer loved or bashed the product)...
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
A lot of reviewers put positive-only spins in their articles and you sort of have to read between the lines to get info out...other reviewers pick and choose a few products here and there to sacrifice so they can make a name for themselves in the review industry as a hard-ass gear-slayer, it's a cheap trick to try and establish some street cred fast. Not saying that's the case here, but I am saying how would we know?
Why that 'cheap trick' can work so well is because for many Audiophiles, dismissing reviews as being just the result of advertising bribery, is a medal of honor... I find it sad how many Audiophiles would never even read a review in a major mag, but mouth off opinions about how "worthless" reviews are...
I think the best way to combat both "read between the lines reviews" and "hard-ass gear-slayer reviews" is to educate more audiophiles about the correct way to use, and not use reviews...
Reviews, both the subject aspects and the technical measurements, can be of real use to any audiophile, as long as you don't make them a substitute for your own auditioning...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
Why that 'cheap trick' can work so well is because for many Audiophiles, dismissing reviews as being just the result of advertising bribery, is a medal of honor... I find it sad how many Audiophiles would never even read a review in a major mag, but mouth off opinions about how "worthless" reviews are...
I think the best way to combat both "read between the lines reviews" and "hard-ass gear-slayer reviews" is to educate more audiophiles about the correct way to use, and not use reviews...
Reviews, both the subject aspects and the technical measurements, can be of real use to any audiophile, as long as you don't make them a substitute for your own auditioning...
Yeah, they can be of use for sure. I usually learn about gear in magazine reviews. If a piece really sparks my curiosity I usually follow up with some consumer review searches, then an in-store audition.
For the most part, I find reviews to be 3 parts entertainment, 1 part information now. Some of the measurement data is valuable, and opinions of one person, possibly in comparison to that reviewer's reference gear, have some value, too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
Why that 'cheap trick' can work so well is because for many Audiophiles, dismissing reviews as being just the result of advertising bribery, is a medal of honor... I find it sad how many Audiophiles would never even read a review in a major mag, but mouth off opinions about how "worthless" reviews are...
I think the best way to combat both "read between the lines reviews" and "hard-ass gear-slayer reviews" is to educate more audiophiles about the correct way to use, and not use reviews...
Reviews, both the subject aspects and the technical measurements, can be of real use to any audiophile, as long as you don't make them a substitute for your own auditioning...
As John Marks said recently on Audio Asylum - there is no bribary - reviewers can get discounts on gear - usually at manufacturer cost if they want it - but consider that that applies to ALL manufacturers - everything is still at a level playing field - in other words even if I could get a $5k retail amp for $1500 that is true for pretty much all $5k amps. Secondly, once the product is used by the reviewer it can no longer be sold as a "new" item so it is now "used" - what is the manufacturer going to do with it?
And even then there are often stipulations that the manufacturer would want if a reviewer did buy the unit - like not allowing the reviewer to sell it for a year to hurt resale etc. Now some reviewers may in fact be taking money - but I seriously doubt it. Why? Because most stuff is actually pretty good - good enough to be able to find someone who will Like it and positively review it.
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Originally Posted by RGA
As John Marks said recently on Audio Asylum - there is no bribary - reviewers can get discounts on gear - usually at manufacturer cost if they want it - but consider that that applies to ALL manufacturers - everything is still at a level playing field - in other words even if I could get a $5k retail amp for $1500 that is true for pretty much all $5k amps. Secondly, once the product is used by the reviewer it can no longer be sold as a "new" item so it is now "used" - what is the manufacturer going to do with it?
And even then there are often stipulations that the manufacturer would want if a reviewer did buy the unit - like not allowing the reviewer to sell it for a year to hurt resale etc. Now some reviewers may in fact be taking money - but I seriously doubt it. Why? Because most stuff is actually pretty good - good enough to be able to find someone who will Like it and positively review it.
I've heard that all reviewers big and small attend an annual, secret conference deep in the Rocky mountains. Dressed in black robes, they are all taught this mantra that RGA has uttered on this post. LOL.
If there was bribery, I would think it would come in the form of scale. More infamous and trusted the reviewer, bigger the "bribe".
I know the instrument world operates like this, at several levels of endorsement. The little and barely known guy might get a guitar at cost for lending his name. Eddie Van Halen would get squillions of dollars, free merch, limos, coke, whores, etc.
Personally, I'm not too paranoid. It comes down to bias and opinion for me. I still read reviews and watch for new and interesting products. However, just watching the boards here and at AA is helpful too.
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Reading this was quite refreshing. I am reminded of a very good AND brutally honest reviewer for the hometheater magazine Widescreen Review. Richard Hardesty is a analytical and profoundly thorough reviewer who had no problem telling high end speaker designers that their speakers look good, but do not sound very good. He used measurements to accompany what he heard in his listening room. After pissing off several of Widescreen Reviews advertisers, he was asked to toned down and de-emphasize the negative things, and play up the good things. He refused, and end up leaving Widescreen Review. It took years for that rag to make up for his loss.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
As John Marks said recently on Audio Asylum - there is no bribary - reviewers can get discounts on gear - usually at manufacturer cost if they want it - but consider that that applies to ALL manufacturers - everything is still at a level playing field - in other words even if I could get a $5k retail amp for $1500 that is true for pretty much all $5k amps. Secondly, once the product is used by the reviewer it can no longer be sold as a "new" item so it is now "used" - what is the manufacturer going to do with it?
Like you, I just don't see any great reason for reviewers to take bribes, or any evidence of it either... But that claim is still preached like Gospel, by so many persons who don't even read reviews... Persons who have never even had a discussion with a reviewer on a forum or at trade show etc, but somehow think they have 'inside knowledge' of the workings of the industry....
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
And even then there are often stipulations that the manufacturer would want if a reviewer did buy the unit - like not allowing the reviewer to sell it for a year to hurt resale etc. Now some reviewers may in fact be taking money - but I seriously doubt it. Why? Because most stuff is actually pretty good - good enough to be able to find someone who will Like it and positively review it.
Yep... I'm sure that many of the active members on this site would all be accused of taking bribes if we were reviewers, just because of the raves we'd give of favorite brands... Mr. Peabody for his love of Conrad Johnson & Dynaudio, me for Revel and Monitor Audio, E-Stat for those Soundlabs, Feanor, and Geoffcin for Maggies, Blackraven for Maggies and Van Alstine, Pix for B&W, Kex for Emotiva, etc... Just about any brand has loyal followers...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
I don't think we have any disagreement on the other points, but I don't see why this one is any different with consumer versus pro reviews... If what you are looking for is an accurate description of the sound, rather than a judgement on whether you should buy the product (based on the reviewer's preference) then pro reviews can do a great job of that... For example, MF's review of the Bryston Amp this month gave a very detailed review of the amp... and regardless of his overall opinion, someone should be able to determine the characteristics of the Bryston from the review... All you need to do is ignore the overall verdict of "run out and buy one now" or "I preferred X brand" and look at the description of the sound... That's how I came to purchase my Benchmark and AKGs in the first place (as I was not able to audition before hand)... I read enough pro reviews to get a real idea of the sound of the products (since that description is 'normally' fairly consistent, regardless of whether the reviewer loved or bashed the product)...
Ajani...lets just say the consumer is doing it as a passion rather than a pay check. I hope I haven't miss led you...I do take into consideration the pro's but kindly notice I did say I trust the consumer more . The pro's help sell magazines, so its possible that somethings have been fudged...I'm just say-in.
frenchmon
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poppachubby
Ultimately you have to ask the main reason why a company wants something reviewed. Answer - advertising.
There is no way around the fact that there is a conflict of interest at the outset. The magazine needs advertising dollars and to get it they offer the magazine "reviews" of their products. Presumably a good review is needed or the manufacturer won't send products (without products the reviewer has nothing to review) and if it is a sales magazine then they have ntohing to sell.
Also, if you're a magazine known for negative reviews like UHF then many companies won't send stuff to the magazine. B&W and Paradigm for instance are big enough not to want to RISK a negative review - they want sure things. One of the brit magazines gave Paradigm a 2 out of 5 rating and a Bryston Integrated amp a 3 out of 5 rating. That is very rare to see something get less than 4.
When I review stuff I try to see what the target market is - I reviewed a Trends headphone amp that another online magazine reviewed rather harshly. I felt the other magazine was quite unfair to it because they were comparing it to headphone amps at double or more the price and not looking at it as a travel unit for computers which to me is what it is aiming for. It should not be better than headphone amps at twice the price - or I should say headphone amps at twice the price ought to be better - they are after all twice the price.
Stereophile is often accused of bias towards advertising but case in point - they have been rather negative now on Bryston, Musical Fidelity, and Totem. All advertisers. Art Dudley bought Audio Note AN E loudspeakers he loved them so much they replaced his Quad panels and Lowther single drivers in his main system - Audio Note doesn't advertise. In fact 40% of the stuff that Stereophile recommends are not advertisers in their magazine.
While I do not give negative reviews - or have not - it's because I really don't want to spend 2-3months listening to something that stinks. I would rather tell you about good stuff that is maybe a little off the radar. Being one of the few Canadian critics I would prefer auditioning less known Canadian Companies - I was the first reviewer to review Grant Fidelity and I think the stuff is very inexpensive for the high quality sound and build on tap. I don't own anything from them and it has actually cost me money to review the stuff with drviing etc. The Audio Note stuff I owned before becoming a reviewer and paid retail.
Trends amp I shipped to another magazine who will review them.
Gee I\m not doing so well out of this. Going to Vegas - 100% on my dime. Sheesh I need an agent or something. I do it because I enjoy doing it - it's a hobby and a passion - I would hope that other critics do it for those reasons. And thinking over items at cost. Really if you buy "used" that will be lower than a new item at cost. Soundhounds in Victoria just sold A McIntosh MA7000 amplifier for $2k Canadian - new list is $8800 - a reviewer price would probably be over $3k (I'm guessing - could be $5-6k) - it was in mint shape.
Granted I have not been a reviewer that long so perhaps I am incredibly naive to what is going on - but when I look at most reviewer's stereos it's not like they're that costly. A lot of readers have pricier gear than even the big guys at Stereophile. Fred Crowder of Dagogo is probably too rich to be bought off - he owns $192,000.00 Acapella Triolons before ever becoming a critic. That guy is not going to be swayed by a free dinner or some cables.
Of course guys like Peter Aczel of The Audio Critic are crooks that give the audio press a bad name - but what can you do. They're out there.
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Thanks for the reply Rich. As always, very informative. I know nothing about the reviewer "world" except that yes, it seems to be hobbyists in these roles. I thoroughly enjoyed your reviews at Dagogo, they seemed sincere and forthright.
My last post was more joke than anything else, I'm sure you sensed that.
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RGA:
One of the best points I've read in favor of why there should not be too many negative reviews, is from your staff profile on Dagogo:
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Two people can listen to the same stereo of rap music, one person will love the sound and will be dancing around the room grooving to the beat, while the second person will run screaming from the room as if his or her ear was punctured by a dentist’s drill.
If I am the second person in this example it would make little sense for me to be reviewing rap music because it would come from a very jaded perspective. The rap lover would be able to better point out the strengths and weaknesses of the differing rap artists. Likewise, a panel speaker lover would be better able to tell you which panel loudspeakers are the best choices than the reviewer who loves horns and dynamic driver speakers and doesn’t truly care for panels.
I 100% agree with that point... If I don't like Dynaudio speakers, then what would be gained from having me review Dynaudio? Better to let a Dynaudio expert like Mr. Peabody do the review...
BTW, you need to update the link in your signature as it takes you to the Dagogo home page. Your page is:
http://www.dagogo.com/View-Staff.asp?hStaff=10
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When I am evaluating a peice of equipment or recoeding, I try to always remember the reason I became an audiophile in the first place. We are all after the persuit of the live performance. Back in the day, the EQ was used to overcome speaker and room limitations. DACs were intended to smooth out the square wave of the digital signal and recreate the nuances and smoothness of the analog signal, without the hiss. Just sit in the sweet spot, close your eyes, listen, listen, listen. If you feel like the musicians are right there in the room with you, then you have confirmed the reason you are an audiophile too. I think the best evaluations of any equipment or recording is based on the combination of amps, wires, speakers, recordings, room, humidity.....the list can go on and on. In the end, what is best is actually what is best for you and your listening habits and budget. High dollar does not always equal high quality.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
RGA:
I 100% agree with that point... If I don't like Dynaudio speakers, then what would be gained from having me review Dynaudio? Better to let a Dynaudio expert like Mr. Peabody do the review...
Well that's one of the more absurd things you've posited so far. Dynaudio is a BRAND of speaker, not a category. The whole idea of reviewing a product is to review it against other products of similar build and function.
Now, if you were to say that Mr Peabody likes and is deeply knowledgeable about full range towers, and then finds the Dynaudio Contour S5.4 to be one the best that he's ever heard, that is something I would take notice of as a good review. But to say someone should review a product just because he's a fanboy of the brand is absolutely wrong.
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