New Preamp or Long Cables/Interconnects?

[Ajani]

So, how do you plan to do this? How are you going to run these extra long cables/IC's? Will you bring out the DAC to your listening seat during a session?

I'm thinking of running the ICs around the room (direct would be shorter but look nasty and need to be under a rug or taped down to avoid being a tripping hazard) and have the DAC1 & Squeezebox permanently on my coffee or side table....

Having moved the amp under my coffee table to experiment last night, I see that the way your friend uses the passive volume control could work as well (but I'd need to use at least 8 feet of IC from DAC to PVC and another 8 ft back to the amp)....

[poppachubby]

Well, I want to hear what Joe or Ralph has to say about "the cost" of the attenuator. Slightly rolled highs in the case of the IC's is no biggy, not IMO. I can't see it being much worse for the control.

The thing I didn't mention, was that he was using 30 AWG silver core in a triple helix twist, both ways. VERY expensive, perhaps this makes it possible, I don't know. As I said before, this guys system is absolute magic, so he's doing something right. You mentioned your problem and I thought of his set up right away.

[Feanor]

)...

So now I'm trying to decide between Blackraven's long speaker cable suggestion and the general suggestion of getting long interconnects...

Given fully balance connections, long IC (vs. long spearker cable), is the way to go, IMO.

[E-Stat]

Would you recommend RCA or Balanced? (I believe Balanced are supposed to be better for long runs - not sure though)...

If your source and amp use a truly balanced design (many do not), then I'd opt for balanced. On the other hand, they might not be necessary with sufficiently low cap cabling.

rw

[E-Stat]

15 - 20ft is quite a distance. But truly, how much stands to be lost through this method? A measurable amount no doubt, but I wonder how audible.

DACT has a convenient Excel based calculator that can determine the amount of HF roll off. Look here. Using twenty feet of Blue Jeans LC-1 @ 12.2 pF / ft would run 244 pF. Plugging in that value and the 23kohm input looks pretty flat to 20 khz. I doubt one would hear any difference when the gain control is used at the upper end of its range. Extreme attenuation, however, would change the scenario.

With my DACT attenuators, they are used in the optimal -10 to -4 db range. Responding to your other post, I spent just over $300 on my project. Naturally, one does not have to get a fancy black anodized aluminum box. That was entirely a cosmetic enhancement and looks like an old Mark Levinson JC-2. I spent $4 on the enclosure for my last Radio Shack based attenuators.

Pair of CT-1s: $200
Par-Metal cabinet: $80
Cardas jacks: $30
Feet: $10
Cable: free!

I get remarkably neutral and transparent results with the GamuT CD-1 driving the VTL tube amps directly. I am not a fan of using deliberately warm or overtly "tubey" sounding components. Nor do I find any value in inserting an otherwise superfluous tube buffer stage just to color or mask the results.

rw

[rob_a]

If your source and amp use a truly balanced design (many do not), then I'd opt for balanced. On the other hand, they might not be necessary with sufficiently low cap cabling.

rw

From what I have heard, Emo's xpa-2 does not have true balanced XLR in-puts.

[Ajani]

If your source and amp use a truly balanced design (many do not), then I'd opt for balanced. On the other hand, they might not be necessary with sufficiently low cap cabling.

rw

The source might be, but I doubt the amp is truly balanced (as the X-Series amp manual only refers to the XPA-1 Monoblocks as being "fully balanced")...

Though this is not a fair comparison as the IC's are from different brands (one consumer and one pro): I find that I prefer the sound of my Audioquest RCA Cables to my Rapco Balanced Cables...

[audio amateur]

I suspect IC's will probably be more susceptible to RFI etc with long runs vs. speaker wire. If you run long IC's, I suggest using some that are well shielded.

I wouldn't add any more components in the chain. I'd either go with long IC's or long speaker wires.

[Ajani]

Having had the DAC1/Classic on my coffee table for a day and the XPA-2 under the table, I'm sold on having the DAC1 within arm's reach... A benefit I hadn't considered but quickly realised is that I can easily switch to my headphones from the speakers.... And the DAC1/Classic looks pretty cool on the coffee table... The amp under the table is not quite as visually appealing... I really want it in between the speakers on an amp stand (then I can pretend to be a serious audiophile with an expensive setup).....

I wish I had a Squeezebox Touch now...

[poppachubby]

Thanks for the info E. Perhaps an 8 ft run wouldn't be too bad after all Ajani.

[Smokey]

I suspect IC's will probably be more susceptible to RFI etc with long runs vs. speaker wire.

Your suspicion is right. ICs are high impedance connection which make them more susceptible to noise than speaker wires which are low impedance connection. Also extra long ICs will add excessive capacitance to the signal path.

[blackraven]

Your suspicion is right. ICs are high impedance connection which make them more susceptible to noise than speaker wires which are low impedance connection. Also extra long ICs will add excessive capacitance to the signal path.

Exactly and that in itself may roll of high frequencies . 20-25 feet of speaker wire will not impact the sound and will be cheaper than long runs of IC's. I could under stand if you had an under powered amp trying to drive low sensitivity speakers with long runs of speaker cable, but with over 300wpc and over 45 amps you should be able use 50ft runs with out any noticable drop off in sound using heavy guage wire. And if you did hear a difference than I would have great reservations about the quality of the Emotiva.

[Feanor]

Your suspicion is right. ICs are high impedance connection which make them more susceptible to noise than speaker wires which are low impedance connection. Also extra long ICs will add excessive capacitance to the signal path.

Smokey, while I believe you're essentially correct in these statement, I doubt their practical significance over a distance of 20 feet.

Balanced I/Cs, (which are the only kind I've suggested), greatly reduce the problem of noise (EMI/RFI) captue by the cables. Ajani, check out Blue Jeans Cable's 'Balanced Audio' discussion and selection, (here). Note the low capacitance of their Belden F1800 recommendation.

What is more, speaker cables in general make more difference to the sound that I/Cs, IMO. Add the extra length to the equation and the selection becomes both more difficult and potentially cost.

[Feanor]

Exactly and that in itself may roll of high frequencies . 20-25 feet of speaker wire will not impact the sound and will be cheaper than long runs of IC's. I could under stand if you had an under powered amp trying to drive low sensitivity speakers with long runs of speaker cable, but with over 300wpc and over 45 amps you should be able use 50ft runs with out any noticable drop off in sound using heavy guage wire. And if you did hear a difference than I would have great reservations about the quality of the Emotiva.

How do you figure speaker wire is cheaper?

Even if you comparing "cheap" wire, e.g. Belden 5T00UP (10 ga.) speaker wire terminated with banana plugs with Belden 1800F (balanced) I/C terminated with Neutrik XLR connectors, the price is almost exactly the same from Blues Jeans. Granted prices are all over the map when you get into expensive/exotic cable.

While it's true capacitance and EMI/RFI capture are relatively minor issues with speaker cable, inductance and resistance are problems that can adversely affect bass response in a way that is not compensated by amplifier power.

[Ajani]

How do you figure speaker wire is cheaper?

Even if you comparing "cheap" wire, e.g. Belden 5T00UP (10 ga.) speaker wire terminated with banana plugs with Belden 1800F (balanced) I/C terminated with Neutrik XLR connectors, the price is almost exactly the same from Blues Jeans. Granted prices are all over the map when you get into expensive/exotic cable.

While it's true capacitance and EMI/RFI capture are relatively minor issues with speaker cable, inductance and resistance are problems that can adversely affect bass response in a way that is not compensated by amplifier power.

Speaker cable would only be cheaper if they are not terminated.... But since I'd prefer Banana Plugs, they'd actually be more expensive (Emotiva/BJC).....

Unless we are talking about ultra cheap (low quality) speaker cable...

[blackraven]

How do you figure speaker wire is cheaper?

Even if you comparing "cheap" wire, e.g. Belden 5T00UP (10 ga.) speaker wire terminated with banana plugs with Belden 1800F (balanced) I/C terminated with Neutrik XLR connectors, the price is almost exactly the same from Blues Jeans. Granted prices are all over the map when you get into expensive/exotic cable.

While it's true capacitance and EMI/RFI capture are relatively minor issues with speaker cable, inductance and resistance are problems that can adversely affect bass response in a way that is not compensated by amplifier power.

I would buy unterminated 10g BJC's. Its dirt cheap and you can terminate them yourself. I bought 30ft and termiated it myself. I'm assuming Ajani has some basic skills to apply the Banana plugs.

25'x2 BJC's balanced is $107.

25x2 BJC speaker wire is $50 + $14 for the Banana's.

Read the 17th post http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24329.0

http://www.audioholics.com/education...do-they-matter

[Ajani]

I would buy unterminated 10g BJC's. Its dirt cheap and you can terminate them yourself. I bought 30ft and termiated it myself. I'm assuming Ajani has some basic skills to apply the Banana plugs.

25'x2 BJC's balanced is $107.

25x2 BJC speaker wire is $50 + $14 for the Banana's.

Read the 17th post http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24329.0

http://www.audioholics.com/education...do-they-matter

Of most interest to me is that BJC recommends not terminating the cables.... I think I'll just use the bare wire then.... Bare wire is easy to use with my amp terminals and saves me te cost of spades or bananas....

[poppachubby]

Of most interest to me is that BJC recommends not terminating the cables.... I think I'll just use the bare wire then.... Bare wire is easy to use with my amp terminals and saves me te cost of spades or bananas....

They aren't the only ones. If your amp/speakers can accept the guage you're using, go bare for sure. I use 12 AWG and have to use pins for my Marantz 1515. Consider "tinning" as an alternative to plugs or pins.

BTW, I know BJC is all the rage around here, but I have a great line locally on Ultralink.

It's their Challenger-II series, 12 AWG. Wonderfully constructed and is most certainly competitive with the BJC. I can get it for 1.40/ft CDN. I have seen closeouts online, 30 ft. for $65/70 plus shipping. This is still a good price but forces you to buy a minimum amount.

If you like, I can hook it up for you and send it down to JAM. Let me know how many feet and I can put a quote together for you. Rich uses Ultralink and can attest to its quality.

The other consideration is along the lines of what AA was saying. Aside from IC's needing shielding, the speaker cable is best to be properly shielded for long runs. The Challenger-II has a tough dielectric for each channel, and a jacket for both.

http://cableadvisor.com/ultralink-au...ker-cable.html

[poppachubby]

Oh and I can get the Matrix series 12 AWG for 1.20/ft. Also quite nice, but not shielded as thoroughly.

Afterthought;
My mom is in Runaway Bay for 3 weeks, I should have sent it down with her. How perfect would that have been?

[Smokey]

Smokey, while I believe you're essentially correct in these statement, I doubt their practical significance over a distance of 20 feet.

Balanced I/Cs, (which are the only kind I've suggested), greatly reduce the problem of noise (EMI/RFI) captue by the cables.

If the IC connection is not balance, would you still use 20 feet of IC?

I tend to agree with Blackraven that speaker output is more forgiven about cable shortcomings that IC output

[E-Stat]

If the IC connection is not balance, would you still use 20 feet of IC?

So long as the capacitance is low, my experience has been positive with relatively long runs like that. Back in '77, I had the Acoustat X full range electrostat. Since they had power amps in the bases, one necessarily needed to use long IC runs. Originally I used some Belden RG-58 stuff and later used some lower cap Audio Technica cable. Today, I use low cap Belden 1694 between my computer audio card and the in-house system receiver.

rw

[audio amateur]

I'm assuming Ajani has some basic skills to apply the Banana plugs.

lol! I'm pretty sure a 10 year old could do it

[Ajani]

lol! I'm pretty sure a 10 year old could do it

An 8 year old does this (At 0:42 mark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGqQuSEJjZc

Don't think I'd want to try it though....

[Feanor]

I would buy unterminated 10g BJC's. Its dirt cheap and you can terminate them yourself. I bought 30ft and termiated it myself. I'm assuming Ajani has some basic skills to apply the Banana plugs.

25'x2 BJC's balanced is $107.

25x2 BJC speaker wire is $50 + $14 for the Banana's.

Read the 17th post http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24329.0

http://www.audioholics.com/education...do-they-matter

BR, I never doubted you could do the math. And it's easy to added banana connectors; even I have done it on many occassions. Also, bare wire is fine unless you connect/disconnect fairly often

My basic point was that the difference in price is relatively insignificant.

[Ajani]

I may have to reconsider my options here... I calculated cable length based on running the cables around the floor (which means they'd be under the doormat for the entrance - which is not a great idea unless I find flat cables... and If I use flat ones then I might as well just run them direct to me under a rug - about 8 ft)... If I run them over the door I need around 40 ft of cable/IC....

Anyway, this is a pic of the room at the moment: