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  1. #76
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Now you must be smoking something!
    Or you are Geoff.

    It's not his findings, methodology or his results that I find dopey. It's the fact hat there's nothing in the world of HT that anyone SANE (or not doped up) would do that would include putting 4 subs in the positions he did. To what purpose did he do this? And then call it some kind of study?! On man this is really funny!
    Or really? Then you obviously don't read Sound and Video Contractor magazine which recommended such placement for large rooms based on the white paper submitted by Todd Welti of Harmon Kardon. As a matter of fact, you probably don't read any trade magazine on HT and sound room installation as this positioning has been promoted for a couple of years now. Nousiane research debunks that approach as a way of getting high SPL's at low frequencies.

    You need to go to Hometheatershack where guys are building all kinds of crazy size subwoofers to see just what kind of craziness folks are doing. You are not going to find much of this craziness hanging around here all the time(even though it is a great place to hang out), you need to visit other websites and see exactly what other folks are doing, it might surprise you. I saw an installation in SVC magazine a couple of months ago that utilized 8 subwoofers(two subs stacked) at each of the four mid mid wall positions in the room. So yes, they do that kind of craziness out there.
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  2. #77
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    OK while I hate digging around for this crap, but here's a analysis of the DD18. Obviously the DD18 is several generations better than the old F1800, but the response curves should be similar, even if the DD18 is much more capable in delivering more SPL at astonishingly low distortion.

    http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...s-and-analysis
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  3. #78
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Or you are Geoff.

    Or really? Then you obviously don't read Sound and Video Contractor magazine which recommended such placement for large rooms based on the white paper submitted by Todd Welti of Harmon Kardon. As a matter of fact, you probably don't read any trade magazine on HT and sound room installation as this positioning has been promoted for a couple of years now. Nousiane research debunks that approach as a way of getting high SPL's at low frequencies.
    .
    Well if he did it to debunk the "stoned" theory of the four subs of the then I would say it was a worthy effort. Perhaps Welti was the Amsterdam dropout in this case?

    FWIW; I STILL think a lot of cannabis is consumed in this particular form of research.
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  4. #79
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    ...but it does not change the fact that that ANY subwoofer would suffer a LF penalty and higher distortion from mid wall positioning.

    ...there is a LF penalty with mid wall placement, and the distortion of the driver is increased as a result of long cone movements.

    The point is that mid wall placement of any sub has a LF penalty, and with that penalty comes more distortion at lower frequencies...

    ... mid wall placement will cause the sub to work harder at acheiving high output at low frequencies.
    I guess if you feel you must overdrive a system, then you will get those results no matter how many times you say it to yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I always have to ask the question multiple times with you, as you never seem to give an answer that applies to the question.
    Then you don't understand the scientific principle. Very well.

    rw

  5. #80
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    OK while I hate digging around for this crap, but here's a analysis of the DD18. Obviously the DD18 is several generations better than the old F1800, but the response curves should be similar, even if the DD18 is much more capable in delivering more SPL at astonishingly low distortion.

    http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...s-and-analysis
    Why would you assume their curves would be the same? The jump from the F-1800 generation to the DD-18 is huge when it comes to performance. The servo and limiters are adjustable with the DD-18, and the F-1800 had no such benefit. The driver was improved(and is different from the F-1800), as was the cabinet, the amp is a DASH amp as oppose to a B class amp with the F-1800.

    There is so much that is different from these two subs that one cannot use the other to classify performance levels.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 08-31-2010 at 08:14 PM.
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  6. #81
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I guess if you feel you must overdrive a system, then you will get those results no matter how many times you say it to yourself.
    If he used a 10% distortion figure as a benchmark, how in the hell would he be overdriving a sub? I can tell you are responding more out of emotion than out of actually reading what he wrote. Using that distortion figure as a benchmark(which is actually the industry standard) actually makes sure you are not overdriving the sub, which would skew the results.


    Then you don't understand the scientific principle. Very well.

    rw
    His paper passed peer review, so what you have to say about is means nothing. Refute it by doing your own testing, and submit your own white paper, or grow up and accept the results. It is that simple. Your bad mouthing him(or me) is not going to change the fact that he is published, has been peer reviewed, and you haven't.
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  7. #82
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Well if he did it to debunk the "stoned" theory of the four subs of the then I would say it was a worthy effort. Perhaps Welti was the Amsterdam dropout in this case?
    Actually no, his paper touched on a different subject matter than Nousiaine and Toole's. His paper was about sub placement without exciting the rooms modes and nodes(hence the mid wall placement).It was not about getting the best performance from your sub. It was the online press, and the average online joe who took the paper as a challenge to Nousaine and Toole's work. So if anyone was smoking something, it was everyone BUT Nousaine and Toole.

    FWIW; I STILL think a lot of cannabis is consumed in this particular form of research.
    LOLOL, ahh come on Geoff.
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  8. #83
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Why would you assume their curves would be the same? The jump from the F-1800 generation to the DD-18 is huge when it comes to performance. The servo and limiters are adjustable with the DD-18, and the F-1800 had no such benefit. The driver was improved(and is different from the F-1800), as was the cabinet, the amp is a DASH amp as oppose to a B class amp with the F-1800.

    There is so much that is different from these two subs that one cannot use the other to classify performance levels.
    I would assume a difference, but not to the point where the curve is lopsided. ALL subs have higher output above 20Hz, even 18" monsters. The f1800 didn't have some "magic driver" response that allowed it to produce it's highest output at 12Hz, hence the paper you've quoted is obviously flawed in at least that parameter.
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  9. #84
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the TerribleI
    If he used a 10% distortion figure as a benchmark, how in the hell would he be overdriving a sub? I
    Very good question you ask about your own comments. I would be very interested in your explaining what you mean by:

    "and higher distortion from mid wall positioning.
    and the distortion of the driver is increased
    and with that penalty comes more distortion"


    Which is it? He used the 10% distortion figure (as you find in the graphs) or he overdrove them to higher levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    His paper passed peer review...
    That and a buck will still get you a cup of coffee. So did E. Brad Myers when he *proved* that you cannot hear the difference between 44.1 and SACD.and failed to provide details of his test as well.

    rw

  10. #85
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Very good question you ask about your own comments. I would be very interested in your explaining what you mean by:

    "and higher distortion from mid wall positioning.
    and the distortion of the driver is increased
    and with that penalty comes more distortion"


    Which is it? He used the 10% distortion figure (as you find in the graphs) or he overdrove them to higher levels.
    Jeeze, I thought you were such an audio expert, these mundane terms would be common knowledge to you. The concept is pretty simple, and I have already explained it once already(now do you get why I have to repeat things over and over to you). A sub tucked into a corner benefits from 9db gain from boundary reinforcement from the surrounding walls. You get that gain without even touching the volume button, becauase the driver is efficiently couple with the surrounding surfaces. The gain increases as the frequency decreases. A mid wall placement only benefits from a 3db gain, because the only wall it "see's" is the floor. It's gain does not increase with the decrease in frequency because it only couples efficiently with the floor, and no other boundary. If I am going to reproduce a 25hz sinewave at 100db, that would be far easier to do with a corner loaded sub, than one sitting in the middle of the wall because of the gain afforded from corner placement. That means because of the gain, the speaker amps and driver work less to acheive the 100db goal. A speaker sitting mid wall has no effiecient gain to help it acheive 100db at 25hz, so the burden is fully on the driver and amp to do the heavy lifting. As the frequency decreases, the driver has to move further, and the amp has to push harder to get to 25hz, let alone produce the 100db. Hence, an increase in distortion. What he is saying is the 10% distortion benchmark is reached quicker with the mid wall placement, than it was for the corner placement. The corner placed sub was louder at lower frequencies before reaching 10% distortion than the mid wall placement was. At no time did he overdrive the sub(for the second damn time)


    That and a buck will still get you a cup of coffee. So did E. Brad Myers when he *proved* that you cannot hear the difference between 44.1 and SACD.and failed to provide details of his test as well.

    rw
    But was Myers white paper supported by other white papers? Apparently not. But Nousaine white paper coincides with Floyd Toole's white paper, and both have remained unchallenged all the way till now.

    Nousiane did provide details in his white paper, so your insistence that he didn't is just plain wrong. What you are reading on his website is an excerpt from that white paper(I have had to repeat that multiple times as well).
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  11. #86
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    A sub tucked into a corner benefits from 9db gain from boundary reinforcement from the surrounding walls...
    Obviously, along with additional coloration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    What he is saying is the 10% distortion benchmark is reached quicker with the mid wall placement, than it was for the corner placement.
    If you undersize the subs and push them too far, that would be correct. Overdriving will most certainly increase distortion. His output level measurement, however, were performed at the same distortion level for each test. Which is why your repeated comments about added distortion are irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    But Nousaine white paper coincides with Floyd Toole's white paper, and both have remained unchallenged all the way till now.
    There is no challenge to the assertion that placing subs in the corner provide higher output if you don't care about optimum sound quality. Yet, Noussaine doesn't understand the scientific principle of providing details required to replicate a test.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Nousiane did provide details in his white paper, so your insistence that he didn't is just plain wrong.
    By all means, replace speculation with data. The paper on Nousaine's website that has been linked to in this thread multiple times most certainly does not. Best of luck to you providing substance to your claim.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 09-01-2010 at 10:35 AM.

  12. #87
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Obviously, along with additional coloration.
    You are going to get it anyway if a sub touches any surface. I already said this before.


    If you undersize the subs and push them too far, that would be correct. Overdriving will most certainly increase distortion. His output level measurement, however, were performed at the same distortion level for each test. Which is why your repeated comments about added distortion are irrelevant.
    An 18" velodyne sub is hardly an undersize sub, so that comment is a pile of BS. The comment on added distortion comes from the fact that he tried to get the subs output to be identical at their respective positions, and doing so drove the mid wall sub well past 10% - hence the added distortion.


    There is no challenge to the assertion that placing subs in the corner provide higher output if you don't care about optimum sound quality. Yet, Noussaine doesn't understand the scientific principle of providing details required to replicate a test.
    Buy the AES paper, and you will see that he did indeed provide all the details that anyone needs. Optimum sound quality comes from equalizing the sub once all response deviations are identified. It is alot easier to equalize a sub placed in a corner, than one sitting away from walls, or even at mid wall position. I know this for a fact. This is why Toole and Nousaine recommends corner placement. You are sure not going to get optimum sound quality by overdriving a sub trying to reproduce deep bass at high levels.


    By all means, replace speculation with data. The paper on Nousaine's website that has been linked to in this thread multiple times most certainly does not. Best of luck to you providing substance to your claim.

    rw
    Why don't you just buy the white paper, since all of your assumptions(because that is what they are) are based out of total ignorance so far. Since you are challenging the data, it is up to you to provide evidence that refutes his paper. Good luck with that!
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  13. #88
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    I would assume a difference, but not to the point where the curve is lopsided. ALL subs have higher output above 20Hz, even 18" monsters. The f1800 didn't have some "magic driver" response that allowed it to produce it's highest output at 12Hz, hence the paper you've quoted is obviously flawed in at least that parameter.
    It did have room gain though, so there is nothing flawed in that paper. Since you are assuming, then it is your comments that are flawed.

    In reading Richard Hardesty measurement of the sub(which by the way were pretty close to J. Johnsons), the limiters and servo are pretty agressive in the F-1800, and they are used to keep the distortion levels of the sub below 5%, which obviously would restrain the sub total output.

    I would suggest you measure one using the 10% distortion benchmark, that way you can challenge the data out of experience instead of out of assumption.
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  14. #89
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I already said this before.
    Like the Oracle at Delphi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    The comment on added distortion comes from the fact that he tried to get the subs output to be identical at their respective positions, and doing so drove the mid wall sub well past 10% - hence the added distortion.
    I didn't realize he was stupid enough to not understand that the corner sub could always play louder with its added gain. Hint: select a sub that will play sufficient levels at whatever distortion threshold you desire or keep your gain levels in check. Which is what the graphs reflect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    ...since all of your assumptions(because that is what they are) are based out of total ignorance so far.
    My observations are based entirely on reading his paper called "Multiple Subwoofers" found here. You might want to actually follow the link and read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Since you are challenging the data, it is up to you to provide evidence that refutes his paper. !
    The only thing I refute is your assertion that placing a sub anywhere other than a corner necessarily increases distortion. It does not. It is driving a sub past its optimum range which increases distortion. If you're smart enough to not clip your amp, then you should do OK with your subs, too.

    rw

  15. #90
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    It did have room gain though, so there is nothing flawed in that paper. Since you are assuming, then it is your comments that are flawed.

    In reading Richard Hardesty measurement of the sub(which by the way were pretty close to J. Johnsons), the limiters and servo are pretty agressive in the F-1800, and they are used to keep the distortion levels of the sub below 5%, which obviously would restrain the sub total output.

    I would suggest you measure one using the 10% distortion benchmark, that way you can challenge the data out of experience instead of out of assumption.
    I have the same type of servos on my subs, (which are smaller) and I got a 107dB reading at approximately the same distance that he got a 90dB reading. My conclusion, and I will stand by it 100%; is that either his dB meter was in error (the most likely scenario IMHO), or his sub was broken. There's no was that sub puts out more dB under 20Hz than above.
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  16. #91
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    I have the same type of servos on my subs, (which are smaller) and I got a 107dB reading at approximately the same distance that he got a 90dB reading. My conclusion, and I will stand by it 100%; is that either his dB meter was in error (the most likely scenario IMHO), or his sub was broken. There's no was that sub puts out more dB under 20Hz than above.
    Geoff,
    Nowhere in your posts have you stated a distortion figure, nowhere(Hardesty, Johnson, and Nousiane did). So for you to say that you are standing by a non benchmark figure, suggests nothing when the industry uses 10% figures as that benchmark. You also haven't provided anything in the way of room size, so that can be compared to both R. Hardesty's and J. Johnson's room. You also have not mentioned the measuring system you used(That is important so one can distinguish who's is accurate, and who's is probably not). You haven't stated where your subs are positioned as well, so for you to stand by all of these information holes is quite puzzling to me. The other guys that have measured this subwoofer have addressed all of these issues, and their results are quite frankly very close.
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  17. #92
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Like the Oracle at Delphi?
    I am not impressed by 'cuteness" being displayed by a grown man.


    I didn't realize he was stupid enough to not understand that the corner sub could always play louder with its added gain. Hint: select a sub that will play sufficient levels at whatever distortion threshold you desire or keep your gain levels in check. Which is what the graphs reflect.
    Perhaps he did and was just countering the mis-application of Welti white paper. He selected the sub that was(at the time) one of the most powerful LF producers on the market. Part of his methodology was to remove distortion as a limiting factor within the test. In others words, the test was not designed to overdrive the sub, but to get the maximum output with in the industry standard of 10% within that room. In his white paper he measured room more to the size of the average listening room according to a survey. While the SPL levels were higher for both positions in those size rooms, the LF penalty remained for the mid wall position. When trying to equalize the level of the subwoofers in their respective places, he still found a higher measured distortion level with the mid wall placement. This is why having the white paper(as opposed to the pre-test evaluation missing the subwoofer model and the additional rooms) is valuable when trying to engage in this discussion. You are currently blindly fishing for flaws based on excerpts, which causes your assumption gear to go into overdrive.


    My observations are based entirely on reading his paper called "Multiple Subwoofers" found here. You might want to actually follow the link and read it.
    Bring the assumption gear into low, you are assuming I have not read it, I posted it in the first place..duh!. As I have said for the fourth time now(this is why I repeat stuff to you), the is a just an exerpt to his formal white paper. He did say thisparaphrased)

    This experiment should be replicated in a 20x15x8' room(Found to be the most common room size in North America based on a 250 person survey) helping to ensure a wider application

    In his white paper he did exactly that, and outlined in great detail his measureing techniques, his equipment, the sub, and the measurements of mutliple rooms to support his assertions.


    The only thing I refute is your assertion that placing a sub anywhere other than a corner necessarily increases distortion. It does not. It is driving a sub past its optimum range which increases distortion. If you're smart enough to not clip your amp, then you should do OK with your subs, too.
    Well, the results of Nousiane white paper disputes your assertions, and he has measurements to prove it, and you do not. So who I am to believe....the arm chair judge, or the guy who actually did the experiment, was judge by his peers(of which you are not), and passed the judgement unrefuted.

    The amount of power required from the amp at any given frequency within the 80-20hz region is substantial. When you put a subwoofer in a place where the amp does not have to work as hard to achieve X level, that sub will have lower distortion than a sub that must rely solely on the abilities of the amp and driver to reach that same X level. This is common knowledge for subwoofer placement, and you don't seem to know this. Interesting...

    When a sub can rely on a 9db boost from corner placement at its lowest operating point without touching the volume control (which means less stress on the amp, and shorter excursions from the driver which does not increase distortion), it will not have to work as hard as a subwoofer that has no boost at its lowest operating point(and would require a lot of power from the amp, and long excursion from the driver). This is also pretty common knowledge as well, and it is interesting you don't know this.

    There are two things you can do here that will educate you profoundly on the interaction between boundaries and subwoofer. Rent a RTA(with at least 1/12 resolution), a tone generator, and a high quality lab grade microphone - I use the MLSSA system from DRA labs. Secondly, go to your sub and move it into a corner(if it is not already there), and measure the frequency response, the distortion levels, and the reference output(the loudest the sub goes before 10% distortion). Move the sub to the center of the front wall, and do the same thing. Record the results, and see if there is a LF penalty at frequencies below 40hz(if your sub can reach that low), and see if you try and match volume levels of the different positions if distortion rises below 40hz. If you results are dramatically different from Toole's and Nousaines(we are talking overall trends, not minutia that you like to bloat up), them submit a white paper that challenges theirs to AES committee for peer review.

    Anything short of that is a bunch of hot air that is nothing more than conjecture, assumption, untested personal theory. If you are so strong in your convictions, test them out instead of theorizing about them. The reason I agree with both publishers is because I have experienced their theory in real life while working as a installer specializing in audio system calibration and voicing. So there is the challenge, assume or educate, the choice is yours.
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    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  18. #93
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Well, the results of Nousiane white paper disputes your assertions, and he has measurements to prove it, and you do not.
    Sorry, I'll have to let the farce end here. Only an idiot doesn't understand clipping or overdriving a speaker. Smart people operate speaker and amps within their designed range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    The amount of power required from the amp at any given frequency within the 80-20hz region is substantial. When you put a subwoofer in a place where the amp does not have to work as hard to achieve X level, that sub will have lower distortion than a sub that must rely solely on the abilities of the amp and driver to reach that same X level. This is common knowledge for subwoofer placement, and you don't seem to know this. Interesting...
    You: Doctor, it hurts when I crank my subwoofers to high distortion levels.
    Dr.: Don't do that.

    Your comments remind me of warning labels you find on irons that say: Don't wear garment while using this product. I enjoy your humor.

    rw

  19. #94
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Sorry, I'll have to let the farce end here. Only an idiot doesn't understand clipping or overdriving a speaker. Smart people operate speaker and amps within their designed range.


    You: Doctor, it hurts when I crank my subwoofers to high distortion levels.
    Dr.: Don't do that.

    I enjoy your humor.

    rw
    Exactly what I thought.....all hot air, assumption, and no action.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  20. #95
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Dec 2003
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    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    ...and no action.
    If you discover that you are overdriving an component into high distortion, what action would you take?

    A. Write a paper about it
    B. Add equalization boost
    C. Turn it down

    rw

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