Michael Fremer article follow up or Put together your audiophile system

[hifitommy]

theres no sense in being childish about it. smoking wont hurt you. until you find out that it DOES.

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, you should have applied for one of PS Audio's free DVDs on the history of electricity. I doubt they are still available but you could check with www.amusicdirect.com to see. Ignorance is one thing but to make a stand on it is another. You should accept enough of us have had some improvement and keep an open mind. Even with higher end gear I once thought as you do. I was given a power cord to try and the improvement was very noticeable. It was more than subtle on my CD player and phono stage, my Krell amp was more subtle, on my Linn amp though, again the difference was not so subtle. On the Linn it wasn't what I'd call dramatic but it was enough I think most any one could tell. So my experience leads me to believe the power cords are most helpful with digital and lower signal level gear. My phono stage is what I'd call in the expensive range, what the aftermarket power cable done for it was, dramatic. If your power cord was detachable you should borrow one to try. I'd bet you would be afraid of the results.

[pixelthis]

Pix, you should have applied for one of PS Audio's free DVDs on the history of electricity. I doubt they are still available but you could check with www.amusicdirect.com to see. Ignorance is one thing but to make a stand on it is another. You should accept enough of us have had some improvement and keep an open mind. Even with higher end gear I once thought as you do. I was given a power cord to try and the improvement was very noticeable. It was more than subtle on my CD player and phono stage, my Krell amp was more subtle, on my Linn amp though, again the difference was not so subtle. On the Linn it wasn't what I'd call dramatic but it was enough I think most any one could tell. So my experience leads me to believe the power cords are most helpful with digital and lower signal level gear. My phono stage is what I'd call in the expensive range, what the aftermarket power cable done for it was, dramatic. If your power cord was detachable you should borrow one to try. I'd bet you would be afraid of the results.

HARDLY.
One thing my camp has had to put up with over the years is the rich fantasy life of those
who beleive in voodoo as opposed to fact.
The rationalists couldnt sway your type from speaker cables costing more than a second
car, and I doubt if we can sway you from wasting your money on power cables
and other such nonsense, which have even less " grounds" than audio cables.
In other words there is NO WAY that a "power cord" change could affect your gear.
If you think so fine, more "power" to you, but I have meger funds and cant waste
my money on fantasies.
I read a story once about a pilot, following his instruments he felt upside down
and going straight to the ground.
He panicked and started flying the way he thought he should as his senses
were telling him. He started ignoring his instruments, in other words.
HE FLEW STRAIGHT INTO THE GROUND.
In repeated debates with you on the subject, you don't seem to get one fact,
so I am going to repeat it...
THERE IS NO...Irepeat...NO way a power cord can affect the way a piece of audio gear can sound.
MAYBE ITS A LARGER GUAGE, giving the impression that there has been a change due to increased current, but otherwise you might as well be talking about faries on
the moon as far as I am concerned.
You think there is an "improvement"? Fine.
But I arrested a guy once who thought SATAN was watching him with a sattelite,
and that CASTRO WAS IN LEAGUE with him to send this guy to a dog food factory.
And I didn't beleive that guy, either.
To quote the lead vampire from the movie "30 days of night"...
"Oh, the things they beleive!".

[pixelthis]

Which makes me curious about one thing, mainly, what is the supposed
instrumentality by which a power cord is supposed to "change" things?
In other words what did the marketing dept put in their ad copy to explain
this miracle(which is what it would be, that being what defies natural law)?

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, you'd be almost humorous if you weren't so pathetic. You're like the blind guy that walked the same way to work every day, one day I told him to stop there's a big hole, he says I walk this way every day and kept going then fell in the hole. He was unaware of the water department digging in that area. Ooooops.

Or, better yet you're like the guy who insisted on keeping with the square wheel because round couldn't be better. You never tried it but you relied on your feeble mind. So went to your grave never realizing the rest of the world had things better.

If I told you why power cords can make a difference you wouldn't understand any way.

[Luvin Da Blues]

.... like the blind guy that walked the same way to work every day, one day I told him to stop there's a big hole, he says I walk this way every day and kept going then fell in the hole.
.

Does a fish have any concept of fire?

[E-Stat]

If you think that a power cord produces any effect that will surrive the filter caps in a power supply...

"Surrive the filter caps"? Non-experiential speculation does generate some interesting conclusions.

rw

[pixelthis]

Pix, you'd be almost humorous if you weren't so pathetic. You're like the blind guy that walked the same way to work every day, one day I told him to stop there's a big hole, he says I walk this way every day and kept going then fell in the hole. He was unaware of the water department digging in that area. Ooooops.

Or, better yet you're like the guy who insisted on keeping with the square wheel because round couldn't be better. You never tried it but you relied on your feeble mind. So went to your grave never realizing the rest of the world had things better.

If I told you why power cords can make a difference you wouldn't understand any way.

In other words you dont have a clue as to why a power cord would improve anything.
Because there is no reason.
You have imagined such an improvement and therefore it exists.
Do you have any imaginary friends also?
Ever see the movie "beautiful mind"?
Something like that going on here?

[pixelthis]

"Surrive the filter caps"? Non-experiential speculation does generate some interesting conclusions.

rw

Its apparent that you have no "experience" with electronics.
IF your power cord does change raw electricity in some mysterious fashion
that changes sound in a audio device in yet another mysterious fashion...
YOUR GEAR IS BROKEN.
Caps, diodes, transformers, sheilding, voltage regulators, various other things, all have a much more massive effect on the current and voltage going into your gear than
the straight copper wire coming out of the wall socket.
And that copper wire is covered by regulations, it cant diff too much from norm.
You can make speaker wire and interconnects from silver, coat hangers if you want,
but a power cord has to be a certain guage with a certain amount of insulation.
not much you can do to it, and nothing that will affect what comes out the
other end of your power supply, whose job is to step up or down voltage and current,
filter and regulate it and make sure it is what your gear needs to work.
The whole idea of a power cord affecting sound of any sort of gear is silly on its face,
but if that is the case then you need to replace all of your cords, I guess they dont have one of these "special" cords hooked up to a power strip.
There is little enouigh difference in amps, a power cord sure wont make any difference.
Heres an interesting article , although I am sure you will dissmiss it, seeing as to how the scientific method is used.

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/rece...d-quality.aspx

[hifitommy]

and ignorant. that is a fact YOU need to take heed of. the more you say, the more obvious you make it.

its like a kind sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling over and over: "I CAN'T HEAR YOU, LALALALALALALA!"



remember, you're in public.

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, that article is either taken out of context or the DBT was rigged. For one thing the Futterman and other power amps need preamps while the Pioneer receiver would not, how did they deal with that for instance. Even if it was in print in S&V I don't believe it. When I took my teenage son to Circuit City some years back to buy his first receiver even he heard the difference between a Pioneer and Onkyo. The Pioneer sounded like crap with out the bass boost and worse than that with it. He had the money to buy the 100 watt Pioneer but borrowed the difference from me and bought a 48 watt Onkyo. There is no way in hell a Pioneer any thing, let alone one of their receivers going to match the bass response and control of that Levinson they were talking about. If people couldn't pick up on that there had to be something wrong. I've never heard a Futterman but being tube would lead me to believe there had to be some audible difference that any one should have been able to pick up on, a warmth in vocals or less harsh high end.

Maybe the source was Big Bird singing and they used megophones for speakers.

[E-Stat]

Its apparent that you have no "experience" with electronics.
IF your power cord does change raw electricity in some mysterious fashion
that changes sound in a audio device in yet another mysterious fashion...
YOUR GEAR IS BROKEN.

There's nothing mysterious about current transfer and filtering - at least to the rest of us. Speculation only carries you so far.

...but a power cord has to be a certain guage with a certain amount of insulation.

You really don't know what you don't know. Power cords can greatly exceed the bare norm. Mine are 6 gauge and have multiple shielding strategies - unlike the "basic" cords you envision.

not much you can do to it, and nothing that will affect what comes out the
other end of your power supply

You just can't imagine any way.

The whole idea of a power cord affecting sound of any sort of gear is silly on its face,

Only to the Devry Tech crowd.

but if that is the case then you need to replace all of your cords, I guess they dont have one of these "special" cords hooked up to a power strip.

You're actually beginning to understand things. Good.

Heres an interesting article , although I am sure you will dissmiss it, seeing as to how the scientific method is used.

The "scientific method" supports neither the unproven assumption that ABX boxes don't affect the sound themselves (shared grounds combine the inputs of both amps -otherwise there would be huge *pops* during switching) AND your sophomoric extrapolation of the results of a single test to the rest of the universe. Do you know how old the Stereo Review test was?

That we have a different point of reference can be easily demonstrated. Try this. Good luck!

rw

[mlsstl]

Hate to point out the bleeding obvious, but this thread has become the proverbial dog chasing its own tail. ;-)

[pixelthis]

Hate to point out the bleeding obvious, but this thread has become the proverbial dog chasing its own tail. ;-)

Thats the way these things always end up.
YOU NOTICE that NOBODY has given a reason as to why a power cord would change
anything, E_STAT says a bunch of stufff about "sheilding", etc, nothing of which would make any difference.
But nobody can show a causative factor that would change the sound of anything.
Thats because there IS no such thing.
But if it makes em happy , them by all means waste your money.
But at the end of the day its just like the spinners on hubcaps.
Neet, BUT THATS ABOUT IT.

[E-Stat]

Thats the way YOU NOTICE that NOBODY has given a reason as to why a power cord would change
anything, E_STAT says a bunch of stufff about "sheilding", etc, nothing of which would make any difference.

You're simply not paying attention. I'll repeat: It's about current delivery and shielding. I'll be more specific for your benefit. Shielding for both radiated and transmitted RF. You asked another poster about the results. Simple. Lower noise resulting in better low level resolution and more explosive dynamics for high powered amps. Admittedly, a typical HT receiver won't benefit the same as will my 300 watt 250 joule mono amps that draw ten amps each from the wall.

But nobody can show a causative factor that would change the sound of anything.

No, it's simply because such information is outside your experience! In Nelson Pass' latest dot five versions of his highly acclaimed amps, he has added even more RF filtering to address one of the underlying issues. He's been designing leading edge amplifiers for thirty years. Charles Hansen of Ayre includes his "Ayre Conditioner" power conditioning circuitry in all his new products. What has changed over the years is the electronic backdrop of the typical home environment. I've had discussions with Luke Manley of VTL and Jud Barber of Joule Electra on this topic as well. Ole Lund Christensen of GamuT also recognizes that which you do not in this discussion. Admittedly, this is not the kind of topic you'll find in stuff purchased at Best Buy. I'm really quite unconcerned whether or not you comprehend the concepts. As for me, I prefer to enjoy the results.

So, how did you do on the hearing acuity test?

rw

[Mr Peabody]

PS Audio has added a THD meter to the front of their new version of the Quintessence, you can see what the signal looks like coming in and going out. If Pix really cared he could pick up some good info from their website as to what these products are designed to clean and why they are in the signal. It's a shame he didn't get one of their DVD's on the history of electricity. Not a commercial at all more like a program for Discovery.

[JoeE SP9]

From Coal To Coltrane is one good DVD. It does seem like something PBS or Discovery would do. Although, I'm sure they wouldn't have made the sound so good. I've played it for friends and the thunderstorm sounds have prompted more than one to ask if it's raining outside.

[drmorgan]

Thats the way these things always end up.
YOU NOTICE that NOBODY has given a reason as to why a power cord would change
anything, E_STAT says a bunch of stufff about "sheilding", etc, nothing of which would make any difference.
But nobody can show a causative factor that would change the sound of anything.
Thats because there IS no such thing.
But if it makes em happy , them by all means waste your money.
But at the end of the day its just like the spinners on hubcaps.
Neet, BUT THATS ABOUT IT.

I'm sure someone is overlooking that voltage is pressure and when released into a large cable such as a #6 it provides room for them to become less unruly and the the special amplifier monitor comes out and puts them perfectly end to end so they may arrive prepared to orchestrate, properly.

The power cord thing is of course NUTS, but there is something to the need for special cables to the speakers from the traditional zip cord.

Just speculation, but what if the amp maker for reasons only they know design to go beyond 20k (save money) and these spurious artifacts on the way out or back create some sort of field that impacts the quality of the outgoing?

Very, very mysterious or humorous. Not sure which at this point. I do know that the so called new and improved stuff saves them money Vs the old designs and with all this value added stuff required or you'll hear the those voices (remember when the groups said messages were in records played at lower speed or backwards?). This has left science, circuits, electricity and gone off to the 'gotta have faith' room in the sky somewhere or how.

[E-Stat]

I'm sure someone is overlooking that voltage is pressure and when released into a large cable such as a #6 it provides room for them to become less unruly...

Someone understands that amperage is flow and when playing dynamic musical content, the instantaneous current demand is much higher and doubling the basic requirement provides benefit.

rw

[pixelthis]

Someone understands that amperage is flow and when playing dynamic musical content, the instantaneous current demand is much higher and doubling the basic requirement provides benefit.

rw

What someone doesnt understand is THATS WHAT THE POWER SUPPLY DOES.
If your power cord is too "small" it will get a little warm...
THATS IT.
ALL your power cord does is provide current and voltage to whatever device its hooked up to, anything it does to that power is going to be minor compared to the many changes the power supplie(s) will put it through.

[pixelthis]

PS Audio has added a THD meter to the front of their new version of the Quintessence, you can see what the signal looks like coming in and going out. If Pix really cared he could pick up some good info from their website as to what these products are designed to clean and why they are in the signal. It's a shame he didn't get one of their DVD's on the history of electricity. Not a commercial at all more like a program for Discovery.

Pioneers like ben franklin, Edison, etc, developed electricity, Nikolai Tesla
made it dance.
and I AM NOT INTERESTED IN a bunch of marketing gobbledegook that
MEANS NOTHING.
Electricity, what you need to understand is the history of electronics,
and the best book I have seen is kings of the air, an exelent read.
BTW during my three years in ELECTRONICS CLASS we had several occasions
to hook a scope up to a wall outlet, never saw anything but 120 volts AC.
Its really funny to read the ad copy of a lot of these "power" shysters, to hear them talk you would think we lived in a third world country, with electricity full of nasty artifacts.
Well, occasionally some nasty bits do sneak in, thats why power supplies have
filters.
But for the most part the power supply of the USA is the best in the world,
you just dont need this crap .
Baisically its a hammer without a nail.

[E-Stat]

What someone doesnt understand is THATS WHAT THE POWER SUPPLY DOES.

We have a completely different frame of reference as to what constitutes high performance. And the ability to hear fine differences. So, how did you do on the distortion test? -18 db?

rw

[JoeE SP9]

One of the main things I learned in 4 years of learning to be an Electrical Engineer was, we don't know everything about electricity. We don't even know what it really is. We have tools and formula's that enable us to use it and describe it's properties. However, we still don't know what it is.

As for monitoring the AC from the wall; while monitoring turn an air conditioner on and of, turn some digital devices on and of, dim or brighten the lights with a standard dimmer. Every one of these things will cause a deformation of the AC sine wave. This is quite easy to observe especially with a scope that has capture and storage. Capture and store a portion of the trace while turning devices on and off. Observe the stored waveform. You may need to magnify the trace to see it but you will see deformation of the AC sine wave.

Many of the things I plainly hear with my system such as the difference cables and wires make were inaudible until my gear got good enough. This is not a "dig" at those who don't have the same gear, merely a statement of fact. It's quite simple, better gear means more revealing.

Both of my Haflers have fully regulated power supplies. Consequently they are just about immune to AC noise and hash. Choke type power supplies also have a high degree of freedom from AC noise and hash. Most gear having neither fully regulated or choke type power supplies can and does show artifacts in the DC rails. Those artifacts come directly from the AC. This can easily be seen by putting a scope probe on the DC rails.

Frankly I'm rather skeptical about some of the claims attributed to power cords. I won't issue blanket statements about their efficacy until I have tried a variety of them myself. I used to think all interconnects sounded the same. I was actually quite vocal and loud about there being no difference. After hearing differences demonstrated I had to revise my thinking. In the next few months I'll be trying different power cords. If there are audible differences I will probably purchase a couple. If I hear no differences the last thing I'll do is denigrate others who believe they here a difference. I certainly won't interject worthless comments about not being interested in a thread discussing what I don't believe. After all there is no such thing as the "Audio Police".

[Mr Peabody]

JoeE, hopefully you have a detachable cord on your phono stage. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I have had good luck personally with Transparent and MIT but PS Audio and Shunyata seem to be a couple top respected power cord providers.

[JoeE SP9]

I had an IEC connector installed in my SP-9 the last time it was serviced locally. That's why it was being serviced. I didn't have the proper size punch. My two amps in Hafler cases have also been fitted with IEC connectors. I'm all set.
The Cable Company and their subsidiary Used Cable are in New Hope PA. The used cables and wires are what I'll be looking at. They always have a decent selection of interconnects and cables for 35% to 60% of list. It's a half hour drive from Phila. I'll take my girlfriend and make a day of it. The entire town of New Hope is a tourist attraction.

Example
PS Audio Xstream Power Plus SC 2 Meter length List $279 Price $149