• 06-19-2009, 05:36 PM
    JoeE SP9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Auricauricle
    And I think that at this point, there should be a discussion on the "passion" versus "rational" oriented issues of audiophilism. I subscribe to the point of view that while there is a level of excellence to aspire to, decisions made as to equipment used ultimately strikes a visceral chord. Call it performance or sentiment, the effect is the same and that is where the apple falls, my dear Newton!

    I am sure my recent additions will not deliver the same delivery of performance, spec-wise, as current gear. On the other hand, I anticipate being quite thrilled with them nevertheless.

    The rest is just gravy.

    Auric;
    The T-101 was bought in 1982 for $200. It's definitely vintage. I was just trying to say that I don't look down on vintage gear.

    That said:
    You won't hear me saying that the pinnacle of audio design was the 60's, 70's, or 80's. To suggest that the design and manufacture of audio equipment has not improved since then is like saying that designers and engineers such as Nelson Pass, Jim Bongiorno, Dan D'Agostino and Bob Carver are deceiving the buyer. That's a flat out insult to them and anyone who purchases and uses any of their products.
  • 06-20-2009, 05:43 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by drmorgan
    Alas the '70's to '80's were, from my experience when the best of the best had been invented and introduced. Since then it more about spin than sound reproduction. Tubes were left behind for a reason (the wear, unlike solid state).

    Interesting. Even the folks at McIntosh admit their product from that era was lacking. Stuff like the C28/2105 was pretty insipid. The C2300 and MC2301 are far better.

    rw
  • 06-20-2009, 07:10 AM
    Mr Peabody
    I'd like to mention one other thing in case I gave the wrong impression on ARC. Years back an ARC system driving Martin Logan speakers was one of the best auditions I've ever heard, not the, best, but one of those I'll never forget. It's that audition that eventually led me to tubes. It wasn't the accuracy of the system, that's what I thought I wanted at the time, but it was the most hauntingly real presentation I've ever heard. A friend of mine said it best when he described it as "putting the flesh on the bone". Parts of the presentation you knew weren't that accurate but I felt the singer was right there, I could reach out and touch them. So although I found the units I auditioned not to my liking I know some components by ARC are very good.

    To me solid state and tubes can both be very accurate but each in a different dimension or aspect of a performance. Face it, no matter how much of a tube fan you are they just aren't going to deliver the transient response and control of drums and other instruments like a Krell, Levinson or Pass, amps of that nature. However, these amps to my experience cannot deliver the organic aspect of the same instruments. It's like SS gets the shape edges and definition while tubes gives more of the body or resonance of the instrument. Vocals may be a better example, SS may have the performance accurate but it doesn't allow the image to come off the paper so to speak, tubes gives more life into the performer, easier to close your eyes and feel that performer in the room. There are trade offs of each and a person has to decide which is important to them. Can any one who has experienced both SS and tube high end systems relate, or agree/disagree?

    I also think what keeps some audiophiles on a continual search or the "upgrade merry-go-round" we aren't sure what we want or looking for until we hear it. It was like that for me. I thought i wanted accuracy and kept upgrading, switching etc. Then I began to switch in some tube gear and liked where it was going. When I hooked up my current Conrad Johnson I knew I had found what I was looking for. I think the urge to experiment or hear other products will always be there to some extent but for now the CJ has me content.
  • 06-20-2009, 08:59 AM
    Auricauricle
    I would like to think that most of the "regulars" here are canny enough not to be swayed by sales gimmicks and other ploys to make decisions as to their preferences and purchases (per post 80). Such comments are either made in jest or to address that population of consumers (not audiophiles) who don't spend much time in rationally and logically oriented forums like this one.

    At the same time, if I ever insinuated that an era represented the pinnacle of achievement for certain equipment, such an announcement was based on sentiment, not as a statement as fact. I do acknowledge and am cognizant to know that advances in high-fidelity are continuous. I also maintain the seemingly contradictory point of view, which avers that sometimes this progression proceeds in fits and starts, making progress linear, but not perfectly so.

    The argument that the "upgrade merry-go-round" is based on the lack of awareness of what one is looking for is an interesting one. On the surface, this may be true: the music listening experience does have an intangible quality, and the essence of that quality is as elusive as quicksilver. At the same time, there is a "knowing" that is deeper, and strikes us at our core of cores. Fortunately, with experience and having discussions like this one with people who share our perplexity, the search can bear fruit. Whether it is found in tubes, SS, CJ or SACD or whatever, the fruit is real, and it is so sweet is it not?
  • 06-20-2009, 10:19 AM
    Mr Peabody
    Not knowing what we want is not a slam, it's more we can't know what everything sounds like, we are limited by what's distributed in our area, the internet has helped with that, budget constraints and other factors. We find something we think we like but the satisfaction dissipates so we want to try something else. So we are on a search, journey. Of course, I guess all of this stems on what motivates one to pursue or even purchase an audio system. If it's just a person who buys for prestige or just because they think they should have one, none of this would apply.
  • 06-20-2009, 03:07 PM
    Auricauricle
    And it was not perceived as a slam. It hearkens to that intangible thing that makes the quest worthy, eh?

    Of course, after awhile, the madness must desist.

    Yeah....Right!
  • 06-20-2009, 07:23 PM
    JoeE SP9
    Auric, you are not the one who thinks 70's and 80's gear is the pinnacle of audio design. That said, I must admit there is some pretty good vintage stuff out there. It's just that the highest of the "Fi" is higher than it was in the 70's or 80's and there is no question about that.
  • 06-21-2009, 09:23 PM
    drmorgan
    From the old man in a cave
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    Auric, you are not the one who thinks 70's and 80's gear is the pinnacle of audio design. That said, I must admit there is some pretty good vintage stuff out there. It's just that the highest of the "Fi" is higher than it was in the 70's or 80's and there is no question about that.

    I have been auditing new and improved fairly regularly and drove 80 miles to hear speakers that I'd not found as good as a long time back. Klipsch's LaScallas driven by high end McIntosh stuff. The other system in the family room were Bozak B310ís that had been acquired on Craigs list, but driven by new design McIntosh stuff.

    The Klipsch's were everything I'd expect from a great speaker and more. The CD was awesome and brought back memories from long ago when we'd heard the artist in a jazz club in NYC. That kind of thing remains in you mind. The Bozaks were not doing it with the same CD on a slightly older player. I suggested he change to the old 300 per channel amps just put in the garage. Got a call Monday stating that the Bozaks (built in 1960 something and biamp'd at some point) are as good or better than his Klipsch's. Those amps are the old designs like the Dead still have (Iíve visited and seen them locally, but hooked up to JBLís also old designs).

    I think one reason that people have to do all sorts of protection with AC and speaker cable has to do with the designs today being about low costs and light weights to save shipping and manufacturing costs. In addition these new units seem to be rather similar inside as if someone is licensing from a source and they turn them out in China and assemble here in different names.

    Looking back to Klipsch's site I see they're still building the high end as they did and others are as well. Thus the technology for speakers remains pretty much the same. I looked a Genesis in Seattle a while back and they're building like the good stuff in late Ď69s and early '70s from what I can see. The new stuff is pricey. Seems to make it they had to do an end around (analog to digital, to analog and the result is vulnerable to noise the dog hears and we have to protect it from as it comes back in as distortion or such.

    The only reason I have stuck with the antiques has been the ability to reproduce being there. In the seventies a host of outfits came along with supposed new ideas and you wont find them now. The stuff died they were acquired and if the name lives it is held along with ten others in a holding company (thinking of Harmon for example and earlier, Superscope) ... I think these new and improved methods won't stand up as long as the monsters of old.

    Technically they deliver, but they also deliver for the add on and after market repair folks. How is that helpful? A personal factor is they donít seem to take me to the venue as the old stuff can given quality speakers.

    These articles touch on the methods and the results:

    http://www.audioholics.com/education...s-d-amplifiers
    http://www.audioholics.com/education...one-amplifiers
    http://www.audioholics.com/education...ital-amplifier
  • 06-21-2009, 11:42 PM
    pixelthis
    ALL I am saying is that if you spend all of your treasure and effort chasing
    Unicorns instead of Deer your family is going to starve.
    Money you waste on cables that are spec'ed to clean room standards,
    "power cords" with more copper than Arizona, etc, could be better spent on
    the quality gear you espouse.
    My receiver is mid to higher end BTW, and drives my old speakers quite well.
    And while I am moving towards a huge investment this year, they are few and far between,
    I need to save my cash for retirement, so I can get the Alpo instead of the stuff
    walmart sells from the rendering plant.
    So I am not inclined to waste money chasing rainbows that, having some electronics education, I know doesnt exist.
    I would rather spend my money on amps, prepros, etc, instead of the cables made out of fairy dust.
    ESPECIALLY POWER CABLES!!!
    You can argue at least that impedance and resistance can cause some slight effect in
    audio cables, but power cables are a total crock.
    A total crock squared:1:
  • 06-22-2009, 05:25 AM
    Mr Peabody
    Pix, we all know what an asset your electronics training has been. Keep up the good work.
  • 06-22-2009, 07:50 AM
    CanMex
    Welcome to the forum Rudy!

    I think by now you have read enough to either enlighten or confuse both your mind and senses and come to realize that your question leads to a plethora of answers and advice. What would really be of help is to better understand a few things if you have the time to answer a few simple questions:

    1) General music selection?
    2) Can you describe in your own words the type of sound you are looking for? (I realize this is subjective but try to use your best terminology)
    3) Budget? This will help a lot in making some suggestion.
    4) Size and type of room?
    5) "Wife" factor? Decor, size, volume of sound...I think you get the picture!
    6) Complicity? I prefer the simple approach but many are looking to fill a room with components.
    7) Source preference? Vinyl? CD? etc
    8) How will you be listening to the system?

    If you can take the time to answer these questions as best you can I will be happy to make some recomendations based on my past and current experiences as I have been obsessed with this for the past 24 years and have run the gambit of manufacturers.
  • 06-22-2009, 09:05 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by drmorgan
    Looking back to Klipsch's site I see they're still building the high end as they did and others are as well. Thus the technology for speakers remains pretty much the same.

    Their technology remains the same.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by drmorgan
    I think these new and improved methods won't stand up as long as the monsters of old.

    A new guard of literally dozens of speaker companies have been around for decades that have established higher levels of resolution and performance. Perhaps your memory is jaded as to the limitations of the Concert Grands. Seen the review and measurements in Stereophile? As the review indicates, they have their strong points, but are severely outclassed by current speakers. There's no top octave. Have you ever heard of companies like Magnepan, Nola, Wilson, Avant Garde, Quad, Sound Lab, Revel, Avalon, VMPS, Martin-Logan, etc., etc.? Which ribbon or electrostatic speakers have you heard?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by drmorgan
    These articles touch on the methods and the results:

    I agree regarding switching amps - which have been around since the 70s. I suspect you are not aware of companies like Pass Labs whose designer has been crafting leading edge amplifiers for over thirty years. Most of his designs are Class A.

    rw
  • 06-22-2009, 09:14 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    ESPECIALLY POWER CABLES!!!
    You can argue at least that impedance and resistance can cause some slight effect in
    audio cables, but power cables are a total crock.

    In the spirit of your many pictorial commentaries, here's my contribution illustrating your attitude:

    http://publicintellectual.files.word...07/ostrich.jpg

    There was a case in the UK when a "customer" complained to their advertising bureau about claims made for some power cables.

    1. ... because he believed the PowerKord cable would have little effect on conducted electromagnetic interference;

    2. ... because he believed the Signature PowerKord cable would have little effect on measurable distortion in hi-fi equipment, and

    3. ...because he believed the advertised spike-protecting devices would have little effect on the noise floor in hi-fi equipment. "

    I confess that I don't understand the attitude of those who base their strong convictions entirely on speculation. Experience-free. The case was closed when those "beliefs" were proven incorrect. Read this.

    rw
  • 06-22-2009, 09:37 AM
    Rudy Gireyev
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CanMex
    Welcome to the forum Rudy!

    Ola CanMex. :) Sorry couldn't resist. :) Thank you, I truly feel like I've been welcomed to the forum with all the responses in this thread.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CanMex
    I think by now you have read enough to either enlighten or confuse both your mind and senses and come to realize that your question leads to a plethora of answers and advice.

    So far nothing confusing has come up, to me personally. In this particular thread some folks seem to have caught on to what I'm after and others, well, not so much. Most likely I've not phrased myself in a way that is clear enough for everyone to perceive as to what I'm after. Less likely, although somewhat possible is that my previous posts have not been read, or not read fully. No matter. I'll try again, see below.
    In this thread all the discussions have been beneficial, and even the "cables" discussion started out really well, however, half way through it, lost the informative aspects and had simply turned into an arm wrestling match. Seeing how folks on both sides are intelligent and adult, I'm hoping someone will realize that by not replying to that particular "thread" within a "thread" the sleeping dogs will be allowed to fall back asleep. :wink5: :confused: :thumbsup:
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CanMex
    What would really be of help is to better understand a few things if you have the time to answer a few simple questions:

    1) General music selection?
    2) Can you describe in your own words the type of sound you are looking for? (I realize this is subjective but try to use your best terminology)
    3) Budget? This will help a lot in making some suggestion.
    4) Size and type of room?
    5) "Wife" factor? Decor, size, volume of sound...I think you get the picture!
    6) Complicity? I prefer the simple approach but many are looking to fill a room with components.
    7) Source preference? Vinyl? CD? etc
    8) How will you be listening to the system?

    If you can take the time to answer these questions as best you can I will be happy to make some recomendations based on my past and current experiences as I have been obsessed with this for the past 24 years and have run the gambit of manufacturers.

    I can most certainly answer all of the questions you have posed above, however, seeing those questions leads me to believe that we are not in synch as far as what I am after with this thread. This is not really another one of those "Put my system together for me" threads, or even "Help me put together my system". In fact if you look at the very title of this thread it says "...... Put together your audiophile system". Notice I've stressed the word your system as opposed to mine.
    What I'm looking for from this thread is to benefit from other peoples experience of auditioning audiophile gear over the years. Of course, the only way other peoples experience (i.e. opinion/review) of audiophile gear is going to be useful to me is if I know:
    1. What their musical tastes are like.
    2. What are their tendencies/prejudices
    3. Of the gear they tested what won and what lost and why.

    Now I realize that I'm asking for a lot, and I totally understand why some of the regulars have chosen not to post. As I can literally see a post taking a few days to put together, not necessarily due to its length, but rather due to its depth and openness.
    In asking for this I feel I can benefit much more than simply seeing a list of recommended components, having no background and framework to see where they come from, and where they fit.
    Your 24 years sound quite "delicious" to me and I'm quite looking forward to your post, and anyone else's that has not posted yet.

    Lastly, lest I forget, :) Auric thanks for your post above.

    Rudy
  • 06-22-2009, 10:08 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    In the spirit of your many pictorial commentaries, here's my contribution illustrating your attitude:

    http://publicintellectual.files.word...07/ostrich.jpg

    There was a case in the UK when a "customer" complained to their advertising bureau about claims made for some power cables.

    1. ... because he believed the PowerKord cable would have little effect on conducted electromagnetic interference;

    2. ... because he believed the Signature PowerKord cable would have little effect on measurable distortion in hi-fi equipment, and

    3. ...because he believed the advertised spike-protecting devices would have little effect on the noise floor in hi-fi equipment. "

    I confess that I don't understand the attitude of those who base their strong convictions entirely on speculation. Experience-free. The case was closed when those "beliefs" were proven incorrect. Read this.

    rw

    E-Stat, please don't misconstrue that I am one who believes that cable differences can't exist. But since you ask why people do this, I will tell that it is because they hold the basic skeptics' position that:
    • The burden of proof lies with those who believe what has not demostrated with verifiable evidence or testable theory, and
    • Anecdotes and subjective impressions are, ipso facto, not verifibable evidence.
    And maybe you aren't right in supposing that these people have no personal experience. Rather perhaps they are as good as their principles and just don't "trusted their own ears". Personally I have often stated that I though I heard a small difference but that I couldn't be certain.
  • 06-22-2009, 10:35 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    Rather perhaps they are as good as their principles and just not "trusted their own ears". Personally I have often stated that I though I heard a small difference but that I couldn't be certain.

    To each his own. I am innately skeptical as well. Between magic dots, rocks, telephone teleportation devices, etc. there's a bunch of well creative products out there. Hopefully, those who form strong opinions, however, will have those based that upon multiple instances of exposure. Or view empirical data like my attachment. I first heard Kimber Palladians over at JWCs a number of years ago. Power cord make an audible difference? What? He later lent me his set to hear in my system for a week. It was only after that experience that I found the value in them. Not all are created equally and the results are highly system dependent depending upon a number of factors.

    rw
  • 06-22-2009, 02:38 PM
    CanMex
    "To each his own..."
    Rudy,

    I am out of time today bit will do my best to post my reply tomorrow..as you said it will not be easy but will try to make it as simple and to the point as possible.

    Saludos
  • 06-22-2009, 04:48 PM
    JoeE SP9
    drmorgan:
    If you believe what the people at audioholics believe about cables amps and gear in general well, that's your choice. I'm not all that surprised you consider them the fount of knowledge. You have preconceived ideas and their writings fit with your beliefs.
    There's no point trying to discuss anything with someone who thinks the art and science of audio has not advanced in the last 20 years. I certainly hope that as I get older my mind will not close itself to new or alternative ideas.
    Did you bother to clip a scope probe to the DC supply rails of an amp and turn the AC on and off? The scope traces would be very illuminating. Since you obviously haven't we'll just agree to disagree about AC noise among other things.
    As long as you're happy with your system that's all that really matters. Please don't suggest that your "Luddite" attitude is in any way congruent with mainstream thought. My audio buddies, both ex-wives, lots of posters here and many others believe in and hear differences in wires, cables and even amplifiers. But then, we also believe that time did not stop in the 80's.
    You can continue to believe your "vintage" Bozak's and equally vintage "Mac" gear is as good as today's current state of the art gear. The sad truth is you're wrong about speakers, electronics and wires/cables. No amount of referring to audioholics will
    change that.
    Most of us who hear differences in wires didn't want to and didn't believe in it. Only when hearing it for ourselves did we believe. You can continue to live in the past. It is your choice. The rest of us will step lightly into the future. Along the way we will steadily improve our systems. Your system which is the "ultimate expression" of audio will stay the same. After all, nothing better has been made since the 80's.
  • 06-22-2009, 05:57 PM
    hifitommy
    yeah, if you hear it, its real for you
    i do, although i havent explored power cabling yet as most of my equipment has captive cords.

    i guess that when i go upscale frome where iam now, i will borrow some and if i hear the diffs like i do in interconnests and speaker wire, i will invest frugally. that is-used or CHEEEEP.

    it amuses me when people denigrate us for our choices when they dont even have equipment that can elucidate the diffs between CD players (something that a friend waved at me until i proved him wrong). he had the equipment but had made up his mind and then POOOF, he had to get a separate d/a with tubes.

    point and laugh if you will at us but it is you that is missing out like that bird ralph displayed.
  • 06-22-2009, 06:45 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Thanks for that link E-stat. That's the first thing I've seen in print to support our position. Then again, it's not that hard just to try for one's self.

    DrMorgan's views remind me of another older gent who was here for awhile. Some one help me out here, what was his name? DM seems to take things in stride though where this other guy got every one on his case but he was totally in the past about everything from cars to watches to clothes to actors and people.
  • 06-23-2009, 02:14 PM
    pixelthis
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    In the spirit of your many pictorial commentaries, here's my contribution illustrating your attitude:

    http://publicintellectual.files.word...07/ostrich.jpg

    There was a case in the UK when a "customer" complained to their advertising bureau about claims made for some power cables.

    1. ... because he believed the PowerKord cable would have little effect on conducted electromagnetic interference;

    2. ... because he believed the Signature PowerKord cable would have little effect on measurable distortion in hi-fi equipment, and

    3. ...because he believed the advertised spike-protecting devices would have little effect on the noise floor in hi-fi equipment. "

    I confess that I don't understand the attitude of those who base their strong convictions entirely on speculation. Experience-free. The case was closed when those "beliefs" were proven incorrect. Read this.

    rw


    And I guess that the judge who ruled was an expert in electroniucs.
    Any power cable is going to have adequate "sheilding", and keeping out RF isnt
    "improving" the sound, just doing its job.
    Not to mention that the old RF Bugaboo is a "haint" designed to scare the ignorant.
    ESPECIALLY WITH TODAYS DIGITAL CIRCUITS, which don't let anything
    past that doesnt belong.
    As for your picture its very cute, I prefer this one for those who choose to waste their money on fairy tales.:1:
  • 06-23-2009, 02:17 PM
    pixelthis
    [QUOTE=Mr Peabody]Pix, we all know what an asset your electronics training has been. Keep up the good work.

    THANKS:1:
  • 06-23-2009, 02:56 PM
    Auricauricle
    1 Attachment(s)
    Uh-huh.
    Hmph! I just post here.....
  • 06-23-2009, 03:03 PM
    02audionoob
    1 Attachment(s)
    Me, too
    I just post here, too.
  • 06-23-2009, 04:32 PM
    Auricauricle
    Lift up yer mugs, Lads! To the scallawags!
  • 06-23-2009, 04:52 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    ESPECIALLY WITH TODAYS DIGITAL CIRCUITS, which don't let anything past that doesnt belong.

    Actually, you have that bass ackwards. It is digital switching supplies in particular that spew garbage back into the AC. Class D switching amps are among the worst offenders!

    rw
  • 06-23-2009, 05:06 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Thanks for that link E-stat. That's the first thing I've seen in print to support our position.

    You're welcome but many folks find non-experiential speculation more compelling. :)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    DrMorgan's views remind me of another older gent ...

    I, too was thinking that Melvin had returned! I just have to smile anytime I hear someone say their own system is as good as the very best (given they come at a Ferrari Enzo pricetag). I would certainly never say that! Obviously, he has never heard HP's review system. Obviously, he has never heard Ray Kimber's incredible multi-channel system. And so on and so on. What is sad is that someone actually believes that to be true with such a low reference point. Far, far better exists.

    rw
  • 06-23-2009, 05:23 PM
    hifitommy
    well i havent heard the spectron musican amps
    but i have heard the channel islands d200s driving a pair of $70k von schweickert speakers to a satisfying level of excellence. for $2300 i was damd impressed with them through the VSs.

    i DO plan to go to the spectron factory here in LALA land to hear what john ulrich, the inventor of class d amplification has accomplished.

    howbout you ralph? have you heard either the CIAs or the spectron?
  • 06-23-2009, 06:09 PM
    RGA
    I am not sure why so many make assumptions (I did to) about a lot of things regarding cables power conditioners etc. The theory holds that power conditioners are useless and I was a huge skeptic of them as well. I have tried a few they did nothing so I was on the Power conditioners/cords are a fraud.

    I auditioned a pricey power cord with Marantz receivers and with the conditioner the noise floor audibly dropped significantly. WITHOUT music playing - this is just the noise from the wall - there is no test required to hear HISS and then having the HISS disappear. If anyone doesn't think that has an impact on the music is plain ignorant.

    That said the Bryston I auditioned ALREADY had no audible noise - and the power conditioner did nothing for that amplifier - music on or off.

    So I just figured that well the Bryston is an expensive pro amp and they are probably using higher quality shielding - the half the price receiver is packing in lots of components and wiring and probably using cheap parts.

    But I got a review system from Grant Fidelity and they shipped their power conditioners and cords (not expensive by the way - certainly not relative to most out there). It did not do too much to improve my Audio Note OTO - I felt it improved the OTO but I doubt I'd pass any sort of blind test on the matter. That said the combination greatly improved my Cambridge Audio CD 6. And again - WITHOUT music playing it lowered the noise floor - you hear a hiss without - and with it it is gone. With music playing the treble hash disappeared and it was quite an enlightening experience to hear my cd player - one that I have owned for 10 years improve significantly with just the addition of some power cords and a conditioner.

    Having said that I also own a highly raved about Tara Labs Prizm interconnect that to be honest sounds no better than the cheap ass wire that came with the CD6. I've also used a Belkin and Monster power conditioner and neither did anything.

    And here's the point. You can take a blind test and it is very possible the new expensive unit will sound no better than the cheap stuff. We can't assume everything will be an improvement because it costs more or looks better. But it is a great disservice to have a couple of tests and then assume that in every circumstance every power conditioner (including all the ones that were never tested) won't work.

    I am not confident that even the Power conditioner I used will absolutely work in everyone else's home - your power may be better than that which is coming to my home. Your specific CD player may be a lot better at blocking out crap than my CD 6. Ditto for amps. And the GF may just do what it is supposed to do while others are a sham.

    Being skeptical should not be a crime - if people want to rely on DBT's and not their own experience it's up to them. But at the same time most every regular on any forum has been presented with and read the arguments for blind tests - if we choose to ignore them because we see numerous overriding problems with the science then stop beating the dead horse.
  • 06-24-2009, 10:06 AM
    drmorgan
    I got off topic, sorry...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rudy Gireyev
    Thanks to all that have replied so far, and that are going to reply. :)

    02audionoob Thanks for the impartial suggestions. If I may I have some follow up questions regarding your choices.
    1. What made you select these components over others that you have auditioned?
    2. Why did you select these particular speakers? Were they the best just before the point of diminishing returns began to be crossed, or was there another reason? Were they good with any amp or this particular amp? What are their characteristics warm, natural, bassy .... etc?
    3. What are the characteristics of the amp warm, natural, bassy .... etc? What made it stand out when compared to other amps you auditioned?
    4. Any other insight you may be willing to offer.

    Doc Sage - I heartily agree with every word of your posting. In the many days I've spent reading and researching, this message has come through quite clear. I also appreciate you adding it here as you never know the background of another person. Rest assured I plan on auditioning extensively before plunking down that kind of cash. ;) :) However, in the audio world there are two almost distinct variables of a piece of equipment that have to be taken into account. First one is how it sounds on its own and second how it pairs up with some other specific piece of equipment. A perfect example would be one set of speakers sounding spectacular with one amp and downright awful with another. Now auditioning may reveal to me the first variable, that is how a certain piece of equipment sounds compared to another in that particular store on that particular day. However, to find that perfect synergy between two components (or more) requires outside help. There's just too many iterations here. This is what brought me to post on this board and to phrase my questions the way I did. And the more questions are answered the more helpful the advice will be.

    O'Shag Howdy to a fellow Angelino. Actually the two things you are asking for were left out of my original post on purpose. ;) :) In your post in this thread, as well as another thread you've indicated that one need not spend ridiculous (not an actual quote) amounts of money to get an audiophile system. However, you never identified what that system would contain. This thread is your opportunity to do so. :) Ideally if you could follow my original post as close as possible when defining the system that would help me the most. However, I'll appreciate whatever you have to offer.
    Lastly, I might as well put the musical style horse to rest. I don't have a musical style that I listen to. I will listen to anything that I like, from just about anywhere in the world. There's really only two kinds of music for me. Music I understand, and music I don't understand.

    Mr. P Huge thanks for the extensive background with your selections. I remember reading about your gym system. Although something that "single purposed" would not work for me, the discussion around it provided a valuable background. I also liked the way you defined a "Starter Audiophile" system and "Standard Audiophile" system. :) I understand your question about my budget, however, I did not give it on purpose. The system you are putting together is _your_ system, and the budget is _your_ budget. The guiding budget factor is "reasonable" which for every person is different. No matter. This is what _you_ find reasonable and most importantly why. The context to me is as important if not more as the actual list of components that you guys provide.
    I naturally have some follow up questions. :)
    1. By transient response of the Krells, you mean they are neutral/natural in sound? Neither warm, nor overly aggressive on the highs?
    2. Are there other Dynaudio lines you thought highly of, besides the ones you have? What was it about them that made them your favorite? Do they have some specific characteristics?
    3. Same for Martin Logans.
    4. On the cables front, do these manufacturers only make one line of specific cable or are there multiple? If there are multiple can you identify the model names/numbers for the ones you meant in the post.

    drmorgan Thanks for your reply and the speaker suggestion. Agree with everything you said 100%. And while I'm looking for even more info (see my original post or my replies above) I appreciate this as well.

    Rudy

    I'll post a revsion or extension shortly. Meetings....
  • 06-24-2009, 01:43 PM
    pixelthis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Actually, you have that bass ackwards. It is digital switching supplies in particular that spew garbage back into the AC. Class D switching amps are among the worst offenders!

    rw

    Not even talking about that.
    I am talking about D/A converters, in a lot of modern equipment even analog goes through
    a D/A before it gets to the amps.
    Rendering your "power" cord totally irrelevant.:1:
  • 06-24-2009, 05:05 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Not even talking about that.
    I am talking about D/A converters, in a lot of modern equipment even analog goes through
    a D/A before it gets to the amps.
    Rendering your "power" cord totally irrelevant.:1:

    I see. Call me crazy, but I use power amplifiers downstream of the DAC to drive my speakers. The cords are on this last stage. If, on the other hand, you drive your speakers with the 2 volt line output without an amplifier, then you have a good point.

    rw
  • 06-24-2009, 05:08 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hifitommy
    but i have heard the channel islands d200s driving a pair of $70k von schweickert speakers to a satisfying level of excellence. for $2300 i was damd impressed with them through the VSs.

    Sorry, I haven't heard either models you mentioned. I am troubled by the "fuzz" virtually all switching amps demonstrate on their square wave output. The 200 + kHz carrier signal must be completely filtered from the output. While Ulrich has advanced his concept since the first Infinity switching amp from the 70s, they are still flawed.

    rw
  • 06-24-2009, 10:26 PM
    drmorgan
    Hey Rudy and all,

    The quest probably never ends as sometimes you think after hearing another system …maybe??. but American’s are highly trained consumers. See this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/health/23well.html?em
    so get a second and third opinion or review the gear next to what you have.

    I have to inject some historical info about Concert Grands (in answer to a couple of posts). Yes, early units were often said to have inadequate high ends. What some may not have known is they were built for one type of amp design as of date made. When the tube units became SS, they were upgraded for those and when the fidelity of the music improved with recording methods, they were altered. I knew of nine different form factor CG’s before the takeover and three revisions of the bi amp device. Early issue had high end tweaking built in. If registered you’d get notified of available changes and many changes could be made at your dealer, by you or sent in for minor costs. The Bozak and dealer supported upgrade process died when Bozak were acquired. BTW some computer firms offered the same upgrade paths. Apple made this possible till they went Intel. They are doing similar with the i-Phone as they call the shots, so these business models are with us today and that should be one of the criteria to use so you are not forced to live with less because the technology advances over the years.

    It was the same with all Bozaks speaker systems. Like us, he was not satisfied unless he kept pace with REAL improvements. He gave his customers systems that could match the electronics and recording methods into the future. He’d sell just the enclosure and a few drivers so you could build it as you got larger rooms. What else you or that reviewer may have missed was a mis match of those grands with the amp he was using. Many outfits care after the check clears, and good dealers do too. Obtain references and referrals from fellow addicts.

    Upgrade paths should be available from your dealer and the maker. I was able to obtain it and it saved a lot of money. It builds brand loyalty and gets an honest dealer great referrals.
    But the #1 issue will be your listening experience. It must evoke the same feeling about the music that mirrors an actual event.

    A further criterion is the gear may be built up as the size of the room grows. If you have enough $ you can overdo on the Amp and that’s a reason to be very careful about which line you pick as mix and match does not work so well. Once you hear ‘as if’ at the place where recorded then your auditions of other systems become entertaining, unless a time comes when it seems better and then you make serious comparisons or maybe even track down cable leaks (I’ll post about a real power quality experience soon).

    You want a good E.Q. This toy helps to make up for the recorded or media quality issues. Eventually our hearing declines (quick when those cable noises infiltrate), again the EQ can enhance the range you’re losing.

    I continue to think that a test record approach at dealers (a CD test disk is available too) along with a favorite LP that is known intimately helps dull the new gear smell or what they spray in the air.

    II think you should select an amp with double the power your speakers need* (unstressed amplifiers may last indefinitely from my experience), and a room with the space for the speakers picked.

    If you don’t use some of the new stuff for a year it may decay. Try to power up your unused gear every six months. When you do provide enough power and space you discover if your speakers and amplifier deliver the depth with a lack of electronic artifacts.

    In my case the first space was not ideal for those 28 drivers at 16X30’ with 11’ ceiling. SWMBO had heavy fabric furniture, two levels of drapes and 30oz. wool carpet with 3/4” jute fiber padding under.

    SWMBO barely allowed those giants in the room and never dogs. When I tried to get some sound into the room the advertised 300w Crown Amp clipped! I called Bozak and Rudy wrote and said to get the Mc 2300 he’d tested. The next home was much better with 26’X28’ and 22’ high. Wood walls and a lava rock fireplace with glass wall each side. That’s when I got a second 2300 and Rudy said his third bi amp and updated tweeters were available from my dealer for me. I did not install them right away as we still loved the results and were continuing to audit other systems and the kids were getting theirs. The second 2300 powered other systems. The kids have not bought 100% the same stuff, but no one yet needs special cable. Reel to reel and cassette went away to be replaced. A new preamp and a bit later another preamp and a new tuner. We’d move the old gear onto a different speaker system till it was passed off. Nice thing about spending for quality is you can keep or give it away knowing no land fill issues.

    Sadly the final Mc gear from the new owners was not as good in the Amplifier end. I stopped looking at Mc stuff when I learned the power-guard was more self-protection than the advertised speaker protection. The unit never delivered rated power (50/50) and that PG section sent up smoke signals one day (naturally after the warranty) and became silent. Funny that the little internal amp in the C34V would power the same 25-watt rated speakers at twice the volume we ever got from the 502.

    In 1986 the real room became the place for those 14 drivers a side and we invested in the 10ga. runs with Monster cable of that time. This space at 55’ X 30’ X 26’ with lots of glass and soft and hardwoods finally revealed the potential in the speakers. We had overdone the purchase of the grands because we already had the 302’s and Bards for other spaces.

    Due to experience side by side on those grands with many of the highly advertised brands of same watts and distortion specs have proven a lot like auto horsepower claims (it’s what’s at the driving wheels and the ability to retain traction that means something).

    Most speaker makers have both the means and the interest to build for accurate reproduction. Most listening rooms at dealerships are too small and low to reveal enough and why many large systems don’t reveal well in them. Still the test record and CD can at least prove if…??

    True, I stopped bringing speakers home a decade ago, but I have not stopped auditing other systems and would switch if… Thankfully that’s only happened with CD players (4 so far of which only one died), and adding blue ray to the system has validated that new technology.

    I think that looking under the cover and looking at what’s on the dealer’s shelf waiting for repair is helpful. Google for reports of glitches or complaints. Check the manufacture out as to financial viability and who owns them. Prices are extremely high these days and I can’t comprehend as electronics should have been falling similar to computers, CD’ players, LCD’s and the like. That’s fishy given they’re using PC boards and relatively cheap power supplies (irrespective of the names they call them .. look at the country of origin and weigh the unit).

    Everything inside should have gold brands and quality ratings of the highest possible as they can add much to initial cost.

    Look for excellent natural convection with augmented cooling as heat degrades electronics faster than decades will. Thick circuit boards, solid solder and don’t be too concerned if gold and silver coatings are lacking. Good conductive materials for this type gear does not need plating. I’d expect at least a three-year no cost warranty from a brand not on thin ice and drop off at the dealer. If you don’t like to read the financials, have a banker do it.

    If it stinks when you fire it up they probably don’t have a quality assurance tests and that’s a reason to stop right there.

    Lastly: I’ve not found reviews too helpful other than for music releases (RS seems spot on). I make products and magazines are want to write glowing stuff when we buy a space even if the PR outfit does not ask them. Buy a page and they manage to send a photographer and writer! Lots of lay-offs from the papers I gather.

    Forums that have a thread for quality, or ‘not as advertised’ should be noted. No good sound system should be sent for service after the break in given good ventilation, not over loaded, left under water or plugged with dust or hit by lightening (I’ll post a power quality note tomorrow if I’ve time, Friday latest).

    Lastly, at some point your hearing will decline. It’s just like taxes … nothing to do but accept the fact and stop accepting distortion as some new and improved experience. When this begins ask the grandkids what sounds best when they’re not reprogramming your latest remote or see where the dog rests…..
  • 06-25-2009, 05:09 AM
    Feanor
    Thanks, Doc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by drmorgan
    Hey Rudy and all,

    The quest probably never ends as sometimes you think after hearing another system Ömaybe??. but Americanís are highly trained consumers. See this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/health/23well.html?em
    so get a second and third opinion or review the gear next to what you have.

    I have to inject some historical info about Concert Grands (in answer to a couple of posts)...
    ...

    That was a fascinating account of some Bozak history. Bozaks were around when I became interested in hifi, circa 1970. I could not possibly haved afforded them then (or now), nor did I have a large room suitable for their use. Consequently I gave them no real consideration.

    My first speakers where Dynaco A-25, and other than them I was interested in mostly AR speakers other accoustic suspension speakers. I had a very brief infatuation with JBL, but soon realized that the likes of AR where more neutral, detailed, and airy.
  • 06-25-2009, 11:23 AM
    drmorgan
    I remember Dynaco.. fondly...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    That was a fascinating account of some Bozak history. Bozaks were around when I became interested in hifi, circa 1970. I could not possibly haved afforded them then (or now), nor did I have a large room suitable for their use. Consequently I gave them no real consideration.

    My first speakers where Dynaco A-25, and other than them I was interested in mostly AR speakers other accoustic suspension speakers. I had a very brief infatuation with JBL, but soon realized that the likes of AR where more neutral, detailed, and airy.

    Seems that they were better than Heath Kits. Must have been dozens of makers back then. In my day you could go to the corner and have your tubes tested free... and several local shops carried resistors, caps, rectifiers and some products were designed so well they would have reduncancy built in with circuits that would let you carry on till you could get new tubes (Dumont), for them.

    But I do not have a favorite that exists now. McIntosh changed and in my opion and experience not for the better. Harmon Kardon changed too and now are about a dozen firms in many price segments. Becker Audio was the first thing I have taken out of vehicles that come with it. Now it is Bose. What' under the covers seemed strangely alike to me even if differently priced tends to get my dander up. I found this to be surprisingly common.

    I've not been able to hear beyond 16kcps for a long time, but not many of us can. If a pet who has that high hearing does not leave when the gear is playing I have assurance the stuff works.

    The progression of CD and DVD gear proves that innovation continues.

    But as for ads and claims.. I'll remain a devoted, vocal cynic till the cows come home. I'll also expect to see price reduction if vendors use common imported components and sub assemblies. I'll speculate snidely that the gold plating we see costs less than the original conductive materials they replaced.

    Cheers
  • 06-25-2009, 02:13 PM
    pixelthis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I see. Call me crazy, but I use power amplifiers downstream of the DAC to drive my speakers. The cords are on this last stage. If, on the other hand, you drive your speakers with the 2 volt line output without an amplifier, then you have a good point.

    rw

    If you have such serious line interferrence that its audible under any condition
    you haave more problems than a "power cord" will cure is my point.
    And as more and more amps go digital themselves your cord will be more and more irrelavant.:1:
  • 06-25-2009, 04:53 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Wrong again, Pix. I upgraded the power cord on my Linn amp and it made a very nice improvement. The highs were smoother and the thing that is consistent with power cord replacement is the noise floor dropped or same thing said a different way the background was quieter, darker. You all want to minse words, night/day or significant, but the improvement the power cord made was significant to me because it was easily heard and much appreciated. I would not say "night & day" but it was close to maybe a step up in model performance. In fact, my CD player was also one of the largest beneficiaries of the power cord upgrade. The only unit that had a larger improvement was my phono stage.
  • 06-25-2009, 07:30 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    If you have such serious line interferrence that its audible under any condition...

    The difference lies in what you consider audible as opposed to what I consider audible.

    rw
  • 06-30-2009, 12:31 PM
    Auricauricle
    1 Attachment(s)
    What is a "udible" anyway...?