• 07-21-2009, 07:34 AM
    JoeE SP9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Both it and the S400 do. Read this.


    That was just an aside. When I saw the schematic, it reminded me of the Stasis.

    rw

    You're correct. I should have been more specific.

    It's neither as difficult or as expensive to build fully regulated power supplies for tube amps.Tubes are voltage driven devices. High voltage low current regulation while not cheap, is not prohibitively expensive.

    For SS lots of current is necessary. That's why large filter caps are required. The regulator is after the caps (more caps follow the regulator) and needs to pass high current with no limiting. That's the hard and expensive part. By definition a regulator will minimize any spurious noise. That's why I said a fully regulated SS amp may exhibit less benefit from an upgraded power cord.

    I would expect any amp that has fully regulated power supplies to be less apt to be effected by hash and noise from AC. Theoretically any filtering or shielding provided by the power cord would be unnecessary because the regulator would reject any noise or hash.

    This is not to say an upgraded power cord will not have an effect. It probably won't be as evident with a fully regulated power supply.

    Below is an excerpt from a Nelson Pass white paper. It may help explain why full regulation in SS amps is so expensive.

    Properly done, linear regulation has to go beyond the cursory
    requirements of the amplifier ratings. The regulator should be capable
    of ten times the current of the continuous output of the amplifier channel.
    The regulator should be preceded and followed by large capacitances
    with values comparable to those needed for unregulated circuits. The
    transformer size still needs to be as big as that used in an unregulated
    circuit.
  • 07-21-2009, 09:36 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    What is more surprising is that those with somewhat more modest equipment, (say in the range of my own), can confidently insist that they hear clear differences that must be very small by their natures.

    I think you may be shortchanging the resolution of your system. Most audiophiles would be very happy with your nicely driven Maggies. I think the determining factor (beyond a certain level of experience as to the sound of live music and a passion for listening - can you play back a piece of music in your head hearing all the parts?) is the type of music played. I'll readily admit the differences are indeed subtle. Not the "even my girlfriend who's not an audiophile heard the difference from another room" sort of thing. Most pop music won't reveal the differences due to compression that restricts both ends. I like using the bass concert drum to hear the difference in bass dynamics. Does the speed startle you? Can it raise the hairs on your arm? The other benefit lies at the other end of the dynamic spectrum. It is hearing subtle detail during the ppp sections. The first time I heard the Kimber Palladians in my system, JWC suggested we play Holst' Choral Hymms from the Rig Veda. There was a particular passage where the female vocalizations were more clearly heard. At a very low level. I always enjoy the experience of hearing some nuance in a recording that I had never been aware of before.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    But I stay on recorded that I personally have never heard PC differences and rarely if ever I/C differences, (at least among low to medium cost examples I've heard).

    I've been lucky in that I've had two mentors with rich musical backgrounds who helped teach me as to what to listen for. I think you would be surprised if you had some guidance.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    I still feel very confident in recommending against people with entry to mid-level equipment paying a lot for these items beyond getting shielded wire -- for them it's simple: the money can be better spend elsewhere.

    Agreed. I would, however, readily recommend a $100 power conditioner to them for multiple reasons. I use them on all my sources.

    rw
  • 07-21-2009, 09:42 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    Below is an excerpt from a Nelson Pass white paper. It may help explain why full regulation in SS amps is so expensive...

    And why the latest versions of his superb amps have additional RFI isolation.

    rw
  • 07-21-2009, 10:00 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I think you may be shortchanging the resolution of your system. Most audiophiles would be very happy with your nicely driven Maggies. I think the determining factor (beyond a certain level of experience as to the sound of live music and a passion for listening - can you play back a piece of music in your head hearing all the parts?) is the type of music played.
    ....

    I've been lucky in that I've had two mentors with rich musical backgrounds who helped teach me as to what to listen for. I think you would be surprised if you had some guidance.
    ...

    Well, no disagreement. For my part I listen almost exclusively to classical music, so there is no lack of complexity by which to judge.

    I have been into hifi for 37+ years and have a pretty good idea what to listen for -- OK, maybe I'd have an even better idea if I'd had mentors of the sort you mention. Motivation is part of it: beyond a certain point I simply don't care about such small differences as might exist. By this I mean I'm just not prepare to swap equipment in and out to do the comparision to confidently define the nature of the differences -- yes, this means I'm a less hardcore audiophile.

    I recently commented on the differences because of a new DAC and a tube buffer that I acquired, (see the Digital & Computer forum), but I'm content to say that I had a vague impression of this-or-that without feeling need to prove it to myself much less insist on the validity for anyone else.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    ...
    Agreed. I would, however, readily recommend a $100 power conditioner to them for multiple reasons. I use them on all my sources.

    rw

    I agree and use equipment by Tripp Lite and Belkin to provide RMI/EFI filtering and isolation as well as surge protection. I try to use shielded power cords on all my digital equipment and ferrite filters on all other power cords and non-digital I/Cs.
  • 07-21-2009, 11:26 AM
    Mr Peabody
    I didn't realize that my hearing ability was really out of the ordinary. I will be more thankful. I can't agree all differences are subtle either. Maybe between some high quality cables any difference could be subtle but what I hear between a stock cable and a higher quality cable like, Transparent, for instance, to my perception I would think any one could hear the difference provided they have reasonably good gear. I don't think the gear has to be high end either. I can hear differences on my Adcom system. The difference between the BJC and Transparent RCA's were clearly evident.

    On power conditioning although to me the difference in sound quality was well worth the money, especially on my CD player and phono stage, but what I hear there may not be evident to those without experience listening to my system. Even if I could A/B it, I doubt if the average person would zero in on the background being quieter or pick up on the additional subtleties provided. But some of the differences in cables to me seem vivid. The reason I feel most any one could is some cables give obvious clues that I would think those closely listening ought to hear, such as a brighter high end or more punch or definition in the bass. Sometimes the soundstage is different, maybe one is flatter or wider, some are not as good at positioning and a background singer can actually be in a different place, not like all the way across the sound stage, but maybe some what behind the main singer vs off to the right some. I can pick up on these cues and still enjoy the music, in fact, some of this is what I enjoy, but maybe some people don't have the attention to detail opposed to a difference in hearing ability. I can't explain for any one why I am able to hear these things. One clue may be that most people are visual learners, I am not for the most part. any corporate teaching program will emphasize the need for props like slides, poster board, now the big thing is Power Point, I personally can sit and listen to a lecture, provided it doesn't put me to sleep, and retain what I have heard with out reading a page or looking at the presentation.

    Feanor, with a limit to 10k it could help you focus on the range you have, more so. If you have consistent ringing that would certainly seem to be something that would mask some differences.

    I hope that no one doubts what I post. Throughout my years hear at AR I have been consistent about my experiences. People can choose to believe me or not. Personally, if I didn't hear a difference I wouldn't spend the money either. What doesn't seem consistent to me is why a person might hear well enough to evaluate a piece of gear then not be able to hear any difference in cables. Possible the person weighs more than the sound, factors like looks, other's opinions etc. I don't have the answer, just the question. I mean if one can hear a difference between Krell and Levinson which in my mind they used to be pretty close, but if that small difference is really heard then they should be able to hear the difference in certain cables. Especially, stock to "boutique".
  • 07-21-2009, 12:29 PM
    JoeE SP9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    So we begin to understand why the likes of the Siegfried are in the megabuck category.

    'Stat, it is less astonishing that you or Joe here fine differences in your ultra-resolving systems resulting from I/C and P/C changes. What is more surprising is that those with somewhat more modest equipment, (say in the range of my own), can confidently insist that they hear clear differences that must be very small by their natures.

    I certainly envy such people, (for instance Mr Peabody), since they must be blessed with superb hearing. I'll admit once again that my hear isn't good: I hear nothing above 10 kHz (not at least at 80 dB). Also tinnitus is the bain of my existence; basically having a very "silent" piece of equipment is irrelevant to me.

    Thus I never categorically state that difference don't exist. But I stay on recorded that I personally have never heard PC differences and rarely if ever I/C differences, (at least among low to medium cost examples I've heard). And I still feel very confident in recommending against people with entry to mid-level equipment paying a lot for these items beyond getting shielded wire -- for them it's simple: the money can be better spend elsewhere.

    It's not how high you hear. It's how well.

    In an earlier post I mentioned that the small differences I hear were inaudible until my gear got good. So, I agree with your recommendations concerning PC's and IC's for entry and mid level gear.

    Both of my Haflers have fully regulated power supplies with cap and resistor replacement/upgrade on the input driver board, gain matched MOSFETS, toroidal transformers, doubled power supply capacitance, WBT's in and out, IEC connector and spiked feet. They don't sound much like the originals.

    I recently wired a friends system with red and black Mogami IC's and speaker cables. It looks very nice sounds good and didn't cost an arm and a leg.

    http://www.mogamicable.com/index01.html
  • 07-21-2009, 01:01 PM
    JoeE SP9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I didn't realize that my hearing ability was really out of the ordinary. I will be more thankful. I can't agree all differences are subtle either. Maybe between some high quality cables any difference could be subtle but what I hear between a stock cable and a higher quality cable like, Transparent, for instance, to my perception I would think any one could hear the difference provided they have reasonably good gear. I don't think the gear has to be high end either. I can hear differences on my Adcom system. The difference between the BJC and Transparent RCA's were clearly evident.

    On power conditioning although to me the difference in sound quality was well worth the money, especially on my CD player and phono stage, but what I hear there may not be evident to those without experience listening to my system. Even if I could A/B it, I doubt if the average person would zero in on the background being quieter or pick up on the additional subtleties provided. But some of the differences in cables to me seem vivid. The reason I feel most any one could is some cables give obvious clues that I would think those closely listening ought to hear, such as a brighter high end or more punch or definition in the bass. Sometimes the soundstage is different, maybe one is flatter or wider, some are not as good at positioning and a background singer can actually be in a different place, not like all the way across the sound stage, but maybe some what behind the main singer vs off to the right some. I can pick up on these cues and still enjoy the music, in fact, some of this is what I enjoy, but maybe some people don't have the attention to detail opposed to a difference in hearing ability. I can't explain for any one why I am able to hear these things. One clue may be that most people are visual learners, I am not for the most part. any corporate teaching program will emphasize the need for props like slides, poster board, now the big thing is Power Point, I personally can sit and listen to a lecture, provided it doesn't put me to sleep, and retain what I have heard with out reading a page or looking at the presentation.

    Feanor, with a limit to 10k it could help you focus on the range you have, more so. If you have consistent ringing that would certainly seem to be something that would mask some differences.

    I hope that no one doubts what I post. Throughout my years hear at AR I have been consistent about my experiences. People can choose to believe me or not. Personally, if I didn't hear a difference I wouldn't spend the money either. What doesn't seem consistent to me is why a person might hear well enough to evaluate a piece of gear then not be able to hear any difference in cables. Possible the person weighs more than the sound, factors like looks, other's opinions etc. I don't have the answer, just the question. I mean if one can hear a difference between Krell and Levinson which in my mind they used to be pretty close, but if that small difference is really heard then they should be able to hear the difference in certain cables. Especially, stock to "boutique".

    Well said. If the lecture is given by a particularly good speaker I'm sometimes mesmerized. We all hear but some of us always pay more attention to what we hear. This is reflected in what we hear when listening to music.In my experience people who easily hear small changes others don't, tend to pay more attention to sound all the time. It's not hearing better or having "Golden Ears". It's the habit of not just hearing but always listening.

    BTW: The Krell FPB series amps do nothing for me. The old KSA's and KMA's are the bomb!
  • 07-21-2009, 08:56 PM
    Mr Peabody
    I tend to agree on the older Krell, one of the things that I enjoyed was the pitch black background, it just had a nice feel with out being what people call "warm". The newer amps to me perpetuate their received criticisms of being cold and/or analytical.

    I do that, "listen all the time". I will be some place, maybe getting a hair cut and make a comment and the person not have the slightest idea what I'm talking about and I'll say "on the radio" or "the TV". I just assume others listen too. Sometimes I'll ride with people and their car stereo will be off balance and I'll have to bring it to their attention. Or, the people that make me want to jump are the ones who will keep it on a station when it doesn't come in all the way. I'm like how can you stand that noise. That's weird, I think you just brought the obvious to my attention. I don't want to go off on a tangent but I have so many examples. Maybe you should look into being a therapist :)
  • 07-21-2009, 09:07 PM
    Mr Peabody
    JoeE, just curious, are you also more of an analytical type personality? I found out I am myself. I thought for the longest time I couldn't make decisions but the thing is I can't make a decision with out enough information to sway me to one direction. If I go to buy something like an appliance I know nothing about I guarantee the salesman will earn his money this day or I will go some place else. I want to know why this one is $50.00 more and is that difference something I'll need etc. If I can't get that info necessary to help me to one model over another then I just can't decide. And, I'm like that on many things in my life not just buying things. I know this by doing an exercise at work, it was supposed to teach us something. I forgot that main idea but it was like a light bulb coming on when it showed me to be an analytical thinker.
  • 07-22-2009, 08:12 AM
    JoeE SP9
    Mr Peabody;
    If anything, I may be even more anal in this respect. On more than one occasion I've asked if I could change to a salesperson who knew the product. I always research any thing I buy including appliances. Although washing machine's don't interest me that much, when purchasing I usually know more about them than the salesperson.
    For me paying attention spills over into the visual. I often say. "Did you see that"? The usual response is. "See what"? Paying attention to things is second nature to me. I've always wondered how people can go through life unaware of their surroundings.
  • 07-22-2009, 08:29 AM
    mlsstl
    Quote:

    I've always wondered how people can go through life unaware of their surroundings.
    My experience is that different people notice different things. I can be quite observant about some things and clueless regarding others. It can be quite interesting sometimes to see how my wife and I each describe an evening after we've been out together.

    And, we all have stories of some very bright person that can describe the minutest detail of one item but be completely unaware of something else. I've never met a person who is universally observant about "everything."
  • 07-22-2009, 08:56 AM
    JoeE SP9
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mlsstl
    My experience is that different people notice different things. I can be quite observant about some things and clueless regarding others. It can be quite interesting sometimes to see how my wife and I each describe an evening after we've been out together.

    And, we all have stories of some very bright person that can describe the minutest detail of one item but be completely unaware of something else. I've never met a person who is universally observant about "everything."

    Being universally observant would probably lead to information overload. Even so, there are differences in people. Some observe more some less. I'm firmly in the more camp.
  • 07-22-2009, 09:25 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    Being universally observant would probably lead to information overload. Even so, there are differences in people. Some observe more some less. I'm firmly in the more camp.

    I've know a few brilliant people, in my case mostly business executives.

    They could always see the "big picture", but more remarkable in a way was their ability to "drill down" to discover and fully appreciate those fine details that were pivotal in the situation.
  • 07-23-2009, 07:31 PM
    Rudy Gireyev
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hifitommy
    i have a suggestion. it seems pixie wants to have THE LAST WORD. we should let him do so and then abandon this thread or have the moderators lock it. we are beginning to get down in the sandbox with him.

    That's certainly one way to handle it. Or perhaps bringing it back on topic would be another way. ;)

    Rudy
  • 07-23-2009, 07:48 PM
    02audionoob
    1 Attachment(s)
    Around here, it seems the busiest threads are the ones based on a polar disagreement, whether it started out on that or not.
  • 07-23-2009, 09:44 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Uh, what was the question? :)
  • 07-24-2009, 06:05 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rudy Gireyev
    That's certainly one way to handle it. Or perhaps bringing it back on topic would be another way. ;)

    Yes, the thread drift occurred very early with some uninformed opinion stated as fact. :)

    rw
  • 07-24-2009, 01:31 PM
    hifitommy
    heres testimonial
  • 07-24-2009, 02:15 PM
    pixelthis
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Yes, the thread drift occurred very early with some uninformed opinion stated as fact. :)

    rw

    Righto, some misguided fool actually stated that you can hear a difference between power cords, implying that there is a difference.:1:
  • 07-24-2009, 03:13 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Righto, some misguided fool actually stated that you can hear a difference between power cords, implying that there is a difference.:1:

    Keep looking, Pix. Notice the earlier post where twenty five year old unscientific data was extrapolated as being valid in the present. Can you say bogus? I'm certainly glad the surgeon who performed my lasik surgery didn't rely on decades old findings and better still - he actually had direct experience in the matter. Perhaps you rely on mere speculation - dated at best, but I certainly don't! :)

    rw
  • 07-25-2009, 11:03 PM
    pixelthis
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Keep looking, Pix. Notice the earlier post where twenty five year old unscientific data was extrapolated as being valid in the present. Can you say bogus? I'm certainly glad the surgeon who performed my lasik surgery didn't rely on decades old findings and better still - he actually had direct experience in the matter. Perhaps you rely on mere speculation - dated at best, but I certainly don't! :)

    rw

    Now you're just getting silly(no, wait, you just started at silly and are working your way down)
    So when you had this lasik done did you check the good doctors power cables?
    Funny you should mention doctors, they as a breed dont have time for nonsense,
    I hope you got one that pays no attention to his "feelings", going instead by scientific fact.
    And you don't have a factual basis for your "beleif" that a power cord "changes"
    the sound coming out of a system in some magical fashion, just what you "hear"
    in a set of rapidly aging ears made out of meat, that have lost a good deal of their response if you are anywhere near fiftty.
    And you never will have any factrual basis for your claims...
    BECAUSE THERE ISNT ONE!
    Is bigfoot real? BRING ME A CARCASS.
    UFO'S?
    PARK one in my front yard.
    Magical changes (maybe they use "special" copper) in audio caused by the most insignifigant part of a power delivery chain?
    On what basis?
    Again, THERE ISNT ONE.
    At least with Santa you can claim you see one every christmas.:1:
  • 07-26-2009, 07:18 AM
    hifitommy
    as i said
    this playpen should be closed.
  • 07-26-2009, 09:14 AM
    02audionoob
    Maybe this sort of thing is why the AR community is small...just a guess.
  • 07-26-2009, 09:26 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    Maybe this sort of thing is why the AR community is small...just a guess.

    It has long consisted of those who engage in ad hominem attacks. The other site I frequent has some of that ilk, but they are typically banned if not for a short time when they resort to that approach.

    I was (and continue to be ) amazed by those who exert such effort to talk about what they think does NOT exist.

    rw
  • 07-26-2009, 11:01 AM
    hifitommy
    you ARE a moderator
    this CAN be stopped.
  • 07-26-2009, 11:13 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    It has long consisted of those who engage in ad hominem attacks. The other site I frequent has some of that ilk, but they are typically banned if not for a short time when they resort to that approach.

    I was (and continue to be ) amazed by those who exert such effort to talk about what they think does NOT exist.

    rw

    The option is there to simply ignore rude or ignorant posts. I suggest we do this more often rather than responding indignantly.
  • 07-26-2009, 12:12 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Is bigfoot real? BRING ME A CARCASS.
    UFO'S?
    PARK one in my front yard.
    Magical changes (maybe they use "special" copper) in audio caused by the most insignifigant part of a power delivery chain?
    On what basis?
    Again, THERE ISNT ONE.
    At least with Santa you can claim you see one every christmas.:1:

    It is a shame that there are some who feel they most resort to the lowest of logical fallacies - the ad hominem attack. It shows more about that poster's lack of integrity more than anything else. If I had not retired from begin a moderator, I would have given you a warning long ago and afterwards, simply deleted your posts or suspended your account. It is fine that individuals have a difference of opinion. What is not fine is when one resorts to unbecoming behavior. And you say you were once an officer of the law? The mind boggles.

    rw
  • 07-27-2009, 08:32 AM
    pixelthis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    It is a shame that there are some who feel they most resort to the lowest of logical fallacies - the ad hominem attack. It shows more about that poster's lack of integrity more than anything else. If I had not retired from begin a moderator, I would have given you a warning long ago and afterwards, simply deleted your posts or suspended your account. It is fine that individuals have a difference of opinion. What is not fine is when one resorts to unbecoming behavior. And you say you were once an officer of the law? The mind boggles.

    rw

    In other words you don't agree with me so you want to get rid of me.
    Guess what? stating fact is not an "attack", if anyone is doing any "attacking"
    it is you.
    I shouldn't really bother with the magical fairy dust wing of AUDIO, it is really a waste
    of time, they aren't the least bit interested in the facts of the situation, just in making themselves feel better because they have an 1800$ power cord which does as much for their system as painting the amp pink.
    But Bob MARLEY said that the people working to make the world worse ain't taking a
    day off, and while those who persist in spreading such nonsense as "special"
    power cables might not be as bad as all that, the money they persuade others
    to waste that could have gone into actual improvements doesnt help at all,
    and to newcomers the whole thing seems rather silly.
    Oh well, people used to beleive that the world was flat, and they got over that.
    And again , if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy buying the equivalent
    of a spinner on a hubcap while a bunch of marketing sharks sit around in a room laughing at you, then by all means indulge yourself.
    I have better things to do with my money than make a fool out of myself.:1:
  • 07-27-2009, 08:48 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    In other words you don't agree with me so you want to get rid of me.
    Guess what? stating fact is not an "attack", if anyone is doing any "attacking"
    it is you.

    Look up the term ad hominem and get back with us. Then provide your *proof* that the shielded cords to which I refer do not lower the noise floor of systems in the real world. Understand that proof is NOT speculation. It is not what you read in a text book either.

    rw
  • 07-27-2009, 04:36 PM
    hifitommy
    ralph, your title still says 'moderator'
    if you arent, get it changed and have the new one end this fallacy. it seems pixie won't stop, just like a child.
  • 07-27-2009, 08:47 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Pix, It's not that any one wants to get rid of another for having different opinions, it's your refusal to accept there may be somethings you don't know or aren't aware of. So you argue for the sake of arguing. Just like when I tried to show you two signals of the same frequency 180 degrees out of phase cancel each other. We'd still be arguing if I hadn't given up despite all the links to Dr. Bose articles and anything else I could post in print to prove to you that you were wrong. This is just an example so let's not go here.

    There are many variables in peoples systems and local power and household usage, this could lead to also variable results, so one has to try power products for themselves to see if any benefit comes of it. What benefit to E-stat, Tommy or myself if you use a power cord, none what so ever. So why would we say something that isn't true? I know what I hear and don't hear. I can't guarantee any one they will have the same result as me but it doesn't make my result imagination. There are also bound to be some who may manufacture a product without the best integrity, so you always have to try the product to see if it performs or not. But the power product and higher end cable market flurrished based on letting people take these things home and trying them. If nothing happened these companies wouldn't be here today.

    The point is we convey our results based on actual use of the product where you argue against based on nothing but what you think or suppose should happen. Learn to state your doubts and leave it lay.
  • 07-27-2009, 11:45 PM
    drmorgan
    People do hear and feel things differently
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    In other words you don't agree with me so you want to get rid of me.
    Guess what? stating fact is not an "attack", if anyone is doing any "attacking"
    it is you.
    I shouldn't really bother with the magical fairy dust wing of AUDIO, it is really a waste
    of time, they aren't the least bit interested in the facts of the situation, just in making themselves feel better because they have an 1800$ power cord which does as much for their system as painting the amp pink.
    But Bob MARLEY said that the people working to make the world worse ain't taking a
    day off, and while those who persist in spreading such nonsense as "special"
    power cables might not be as bad as all that, the money they persuade others
    to waste that could have gone into actual improvements doesnt help at all,
    and to newcomers the whole thing seems rather silly.
    Oh well, people used to beleive that the world was flat, and they got over that.
    And again , if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy buying the equivalent
    of a spinner on a hubcap while a bunch of marketing sharks sit around in a room laughing at you, then by all means indulge yourself.
    I have better things to do with my money than make a fool out of myself.:1:

    I am more and more forming the opinion that it is possible they do hear something that is cancelled when they buy those special cable products. I think that when they buy the gear that creates a need for them (real or imagined) that its like those special tags someone forgot to cancel or remove at the check out. Some manufacturer or dealer has tagged them and things won't be right or the ringing stop till they remove the secret device or snap the fingers after saying the right thing.

    Don't close the thread before 'they' decide. I have it from the sky fairy that this special power and noise thing is a plot by some superior being playing with another of his species (we used to have many gods, but just five now hold the franchise for earth) to see who buys science or who buys more mysticism.
  • 07-28-2009, 07:27 AM
    JoeE SP9
    As Mr Peabody has already said, either there are a awful lot of people who in a home audition are fantasizing or you (pixelthis and drmorgan) simply can't hear well enough.
    We don't constantly deride someone for having "vintage gear" or a "mass market" receiver.

    There are so many who hear these small differences it would behoove you to find out for yourself instead of denigrating those you disagree with.
  • 07-28-2009, 12:09 PM
    Rudy Gireyev
    I sure wish we had the ability to moderate the threads that we have started. I would love to clip the off topic discussion and create it as a new thread in the appropriate forum. :wink5: :wink5:

    So how about it Mr. Mod? Any chance you might have pity and do this for us?

    Rudy

    P.S. Just in case the above does not happen. Remember folks that it takes two to tango. The argument has clearly turned into a competition to see who will win. And neither side seems to have any interest of backing down. Or even the remote willingness to let go. Which in an odd way puts both sides into the same emotional camp even if they are in separate audio camps. :shocked: :crazy: :confused5: :eek:
  • 07-28-2009, 12:34 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rudy Gireyev
    So how about it Mr. Mod? Any chance you might have pity and do this for us?

    If you're referring to me, I retired from that job some time ago like Sir Terrence. Looks like they didn't take the keys away, but I no longer moderate. Perhaps my "Retired Mod" label wasn't emphatic enough.

    As my last official act, I have closed the thread.

    rw