line seperating mid range and high end?

[melvin walker]

What are standards Melvin? You really don't think anyone today is as good as singers or just not trained properly? How about Norah Jones? Wow you are a critical listener indeed.

Standards are usually popular music that has stood the test of time. Many written by the great American composers such as George Gershwin , Cole Porter , Jerome Kern , Richard Rogers , Harold Arlen ,Oscar Hammerstein 11 , Irvin Berlin , etc, Songs performed by everyone form Bing Crosby , Miles Davis , to the Boston Pops.

The music was greater than the performer , example Irvin Berlin's" There's no business like show business " from the Broadway musical Annie get your gun. Written back in 1945 !
Many have recorded that song. Than there are holiday standards , White Christmas ,the Christmas song and Jingle bells.

Today the singers are performer are greater than the songs , as a result with the exception of songs written by the Beatles , there are few songs written today that will be remembered. None will stand the test of time.

[snodog]

Very interesting point Melvin, and much the same can be said for artwork really. Many great pieces iconic that will never be topped. Fun to be an enthusiast but disappointing in ways that the originality seems to be so limited.

[Mr Peabody]

Snodog, I haven't heard the Outlaw, some Onkyo but not the 705. The 705 is obviously more up to date on features. I'll have to take a look at the Outlaw preamp's features. I'd have to guess the Outlaw being separates would have better sound.

[E-Stat]

There are several ways one can test one's audio equipment. A vocal , small jazz trio ,
and an orchestra. The labels you referred to are they records or CO's ?

Both, but Telarc has always recorded digitally either in Redbook or SACD. What they do especially well is record using a minimal miking technique that provides great perspective. Reference Recordings has done both analog and digital. I have an analog recording of Symphony Fantastique on 45 RPM vinyl. Classic reissues all sorts of recordings on vinyl. I've heard quite a few 50s era recordings that still shine today.

That is what audio equipment is all about. As close to being there as possible. One should first visit a concert hall , such as Powell Symphony Hall in St.Louis , Avery Fisher Hall in D.C. or Carnegie Hall in New York or any great symphony hall in America. One needs a reference to really know what outstanding sound is.

Agreed, although I listen to a lot of music because of the content and not the production. I confess a particular bias toward that concept Harry Pearson advanced years ago with The Absolute Sound since I met him through his long term friend Dr. Cooledge twenty five years ago.

I have a great live music reference in my home with the wife's baby grand. Since we moved to a small college town where she teaches, we also have many opportunities to hear a variety of concerts at the university.

rw

[snodog]

That would be greatly appreciated Mr. Peabody if you ever have a few extra minutes to look on their site. I am beginning to understand some things but it takes a while and a lot of reading.

[Mr Peabody]

Snodog, the Outlaw gear has some good reviews but the preamp is a bit out dated as far as features go. I think you wanted to be ready for the future, if that's possible. The Outlaw would be good if you weren't going to worry about having the latest video switching and you were alright with using the multichannel analog input if going HD disc. The 990 had an auto set up feature but I don't think the 970 did. You could make do with the 970 or even the 990 for a bit more money but neither are cutting edge on features. I recommend getting at least the 7125 amp or if you aren't going 6 or 7.1 get an even larger 5-channel. Remember DVI is just video, HDMI is both audio and video.

[snodog]

Yes and now that I look at it only two digital optical inputs...strange, I guess not really designed for theater purposes. Thanks Mr P that is what I wanted to know. Kind of disappointing they don't have more options. I have heard they are wonderful sounding.

[basite]

That is what audio equipment is all about. As close to being there as possible. One should first visit a concert hall , such as Powell Symphony Hall in St.Louis , Avery Fisher Hall in D.C. or Carnegie Hall in New York or any great symphony hall in America.
One needs a reference to really know what outstanding sound is.

yes, and that is what today's gear can get closer to.


you said the speakers E-stat listed were more 'mid bas and midrange' or what was it? I can assure you they will provide cleaner bass, mids, highs and ultrasonics than any vintage speaker ever built.

[melvin walker]

yes, and that is what today's gear can get closer to.


you said the speakers E-stat listed were more 'mid bas and midrange' or what was it? I can assure you they will provide cleaner bass, mids, highs and ultrasonics than any vintage speaker ever built.

We have had an interesting debate , comparing audio equipment of different generations.
We have agreed to disagree . I would suggest that the only way to arrive at a conclusion
is an A-B test.

Remember humans have difficulty remembering sound. The A-B test is the answer .The correct way to have an A-B test is to sit down in a symphony hall with a curtain and
audition two different systems.
They did that in St.Louis at Powell Symphony Hall , prepared by Bob Shaw of Gordon Sound , an audio engineer and Bozak rep. There were several displays of this type done in the late 50's , 60's and early 70's.

Since we all hear different there still was debates Bozak vs Lansing , Marantz vs McIntosh , Thorens vs Fairchild , Shure vs Ortofon , Revox vs Ampex etc.
Now the differences are also generational. Tubes vs transistors , digital vs analog etc.
We had lots of fun and met many different people.

If I remember there was a chevy man and a Ford man. Today there is a BMW man and a Mercedes man , only the names has changed.
It's a pleasure debating with many members of the Audio Review Forum.

[melvin walker]

http://www.safehaven.com/article-1458.htm

Here's an interesting article on cpi calculation manipulation which covers what we all already know to be true--that it ain't easy out there. Given a finite amount of money for the individual, and that finite amount being pulled toward new priorities and escalating taxes, it's easy to agree that true "hi-fi" is certainly not for everybody. But was it ever?

I would however seek to contradict the posit that there is no affordable quality gear out there. My first recollections of serious audio reproduction were on my grandfather's Marantz and Bozak setup...a magical and wonderous warmth. Having experienced that and some modern gear I think it's clear that today's transducers and digital and certainly analog machinations tend to be much more accurate, even the "mid-priced ones".

I think it's more reasonable to lament the very real fact that in today's fast-paced, immediate gratification world fewer and fewer folks take the time to properly calibrate a system and work toward synergy within a room. How many times have you looked at the Audiogon gallery and seen a set of 30k rear-ported speaks shoved up against a wall in a room more befitting an spread in Architectural Digest than Stereophile? Happens in the showrooms too.

Combine that with the recording industry's purposeful corruption of the very sources that we use and it's no surprise that in a lot of situations things sound bad. But, still, it's out there, you just have look at other avenues (like E-Stat suggested the Telarcs of the world).

As an aside, I've owned both an Audemars Piguet and a Breitling and they were both some of the poorest designed, worst implemented excuses for a "timepiece" ever. But, that's just me. I'm also of a mind that if I ever spent 50k---for that matter 5k---on equipment just to impress my peers that I'd have to haul myself outside and kick my own ass.

Please don't kick yourself. I also own a Breitling and Audemars Piguet and several other high end watches. I have never met anyone who spent $5000 to $ 20,000 for a watch that did not buy the watches for image !

Timex's keep better time because they are quartz. The question is today, does one really need a watch ? This the 21th century , there is time pieces all around us. our cell phones has the time.

I will repeat again today's mid price audio equipment is the equal if not the superior of pre 70's highest price systems. Again our musical taste has change. We dress different, eat different and treat each other different.
As a person in his 60's I have a different view of the world than younger people.
I can't understand why men wear their hats inside , or jeans with a suit coat.

I once had a friend with an Aston Martin who wished over and over he could drive the car
50 miles without it breaking down. He spent $150,000 for the car. He knew that a Lexus was more reliable , but the Aston Martin was image , the Lexus just another car.
Many audiophiles did the same , by the time they could afford to buy a high end system ., they were to old to hear the difference. Were they any different from the man who bought the Aston Martin ?

[bobsticks]

Please don't kick yourself. I also own a Breitling and Audemars Piguet and several other high end watches. I have never met anyone who spent $5000 to $ 20,000 for a watch that did not buy the watches for image !

Timex's keep better time because they are quartz. The question is today, does one really need a watch ? This the 21th century , there is time pieces all around us. our cell phones has the time.

I will repeat again today's mid price audio equipment is the equal if not the superior of pre 70's highest price systems. Again our musical taste has change. We dress different, eat different and treat each other different.
As a person in his 60's I have a different view of the world than younger people.
I can't understand why men wear their hats inside , or jeans with a suit coat.

I once had a friend with an Aston Martin who wished over and over he could drive the car
50 miles without it breaking down. He spent $150,000 for the car. He knew that a Lexus was more reliable , but the Aston Martin was image , the Lexus just another car.
Many audiophiles did the same , by the time they could afford to buy a high end system ., they were to old to hear the difference. Were they any different from the man who bought the Aston Martin ?

Hey Melvin,

LOL, I won't kick myself and I'll be the first to admit these timepieces came at a younger and very definetely more vain period in my life. I'd also say that it was a good life lesson--sorta like your friend with the Aston--except that I must be wired a little differently than your average audiophile/music enthusiast.

I suppose I represent that dichotomous opposite of yourself. Approaching this from a highly utilitarian standpoint, the equipment aspect is largely a find-the-tool-that-fits proposition, and this is coming from a guy with the McIntosh amps and ML speaks. I found just as much joy from acquiring the entire Tilson Thomas Mahler series or the MoFi release of Surfer Rosa because it's the experience that provides the juice IMO.

I must've missed your comments and comparisons of modern equipment. Sorry 'bout that. I can respect anyone's opinion on gear as I'll never try and tell folks what they're hearing in their own rooms, and despite my lack of years I'll even agree on your opinions on a lot of musical and societal issues. I just like to think that there's room in the boat for everyone, especially anyone who's trying to enjoy and learn about audio on any level.

Thanks for bringing us a great thread and conversation starter.

Peace

NP:

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

ple.
I can't understand why men wear their hats inside , or jeans with a suit coat.

*Hair loss

*Jeans wear lower on the hips than formal slacks. This can be a waist size difference of several inches as compared to the traditional "waist", which sits in the love-handle area. So the douche wearing Levis' and a sportcoat is really just having trouble coming to terms with his 40 inch waist.

[melvin walker]

*Hair loss

*Jeans wear lower on the hips than formal slacks. This can be a waist size difference of several inches as compared to the traditional "waist", which sits in the love-handle area. So the douche wearing Levis' and a sportcoat is really just having trouble coming to terms with his 40 inch waist.

Levis invented jeans. Jeans were worn as work cloths. Because they were easily produced from left-over cotton fiber.
Most young men today dress very poorly the reason being that poor manners and poor dress is acceptable.
To wear a pair of jeans and a sport coat or suit coat is poor taste. There are no men's book on fashion that will find that type of dress acceptable.