• 12-23-2007, 12:10 PM
    ldgibson76
    [I was of the impression that only separates could be classified as high end. Receivers being a compromise was never considered high end except in exceptional cases. Price generally determines whether something is high end or not. Marantz receivers are not costly and who builds them now , Marantz has had several manufacturers since 1970.]

    Marantz is owned by D&M Holdings and built in Japan!
  • 12-23-2007, 02:02 PM
    musicman1999
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by snodog
    I might have mentioned that the cd player prior to ps3 was a 5 year old sony dvd player so the difference is pretty clear. Brings me to another question, what would you recommend for a cd player? I would like to have sacd/dvd audio in my setup.

    A lot would depend on your budget.The issue with DVD-A is that means it would have to be a DVD player and i should have mentioned before that all my comments were using the analog outputs on the player not digital.

    bill
  • 12-23-2007, 02:09 PM
    musicman1999
    [QUOTE=melvin walker] Price generally determines whether something is high end or not.


    Not so much, just because something is expensive does not make it good and while quality usually is expensive high price is not a guarantee of quality.Just look at Bose or Monster cable.

    bill
  • 12-23-2007, 02:24 PM
    snodog
    Okay then let me ask this, assuming my Marantz 6200 has a surround mode problem rather than channel problem could I use this as a preamp and then buy a separate processor such as the Outlaw? Would this work or is it too much for a preamp? It would be cool if I could still somehow use it.
  • 12-23-2007, 03:15 PM
    melvin walker
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by snodog
    I understand what you are hitting on. Cars, of course always are a good symmetrical comparison in terms of value vs luxury. My Pontiac will take me from A to B much more efficiently than an Escalade but not as much fun or as many heads being turned (if any).
    I still wonder though Mr. Peabody, you mentioned the mega-priced Denons and others that would still fall short. Are you speaking in terms of pure audio quality or build quality? It would seem that some of these tanks are built pretty damn solidly. IMO the PS3 has some pretty damn good sound for a cd player with upsampling now integrated...

    Also on another note, I am not dismissing Denon BR but I listened to a Marantz Denon and HK of equal comparison and didnt care for what I heard other than the Marantz which I then bought. They seemed really flat.

    A Pontiac vs a Escalade ?, both poorly made ,both poor performance. Bad comparison.
    Why is Marantz audio equipment an issue when discussing high end. Marantz hasn't made high end audio equipment since the 70's. And than only a power amp.

    Musicman I used the word "generally" which means most but not all expensive audio is excellent. One of the reasons I guess many AR members include Marantz audio equipment as much as they do is the limited number of audio magazines.
    Years ago there were a number of different audio magazines and hobbyist are those interested had a host of audio magazines to read test reports and comments by audio writers.
    Times have changed.
  • 12-23-2007, 03:18 PM
    snodog
    Poorly made? What a douchebag as you are poorly made as well.
  • 12-23-2007, 05:34 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Snodog, I agree, stay away from DVI, it's a thing of the past, and it's only a video connection.

    Melvin, I don't think anyone considers Marantz high end, I hope anyway. I believe the reason it is mentioned a lot is for one they offer a good value line of universal player, they offer a line of integrated amps and separates which has pretty much gone by the wayside for most mass market brands, except Onkyo is starting to make a splash with their new digital integrated, and Marantz HT receivers are being pretty widely accepted as decent since coming under D&M's umbrella. From what I understand, and some one feel free to correct me, D&M only does Marantz's receivers. I believe the other lines are under another companies control. D&M also has Denon. I was always interested in hearing the Marantz integrated that cost about $500.00 and was Class A switchable to Class A/B. You are sure right though that Marantz, the name, has been passed through many hands since they built the gear you have.
  • 12-23-2007, 06:14 PM
    bobsticks
    Out of curiosity, do Lexicon, Meridian, Krell, et al make audiophile processors with hdmi 1.3, topend Burr Brown Dacs, USB ports, and upconverting?
  • 12-23-2007, 09:51 PM
    snodog
    Since we are discussing the composition of high end products what makes an audiophile an audiophile? Someone who uses his system solely for music? I appreciate good sounding music as much as anyone but cannot afford a goddamn $20,000. system. Some have the luxury to make the proclamation I guess..
  • 12-23-2007, 11:44 PM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Snodog, I agree, stay away from DVI, it's a thing of the past, and it's only a video connection.

    Melvin, I don't think anyone considers Marantz high end, I hope anyway. I believe the reason it is mentioned a lot is for one they offer a good value line of universal player, they offer a line of integrated amps and separates which has pretty much gone by the wayside for most mass market brands, except Onkyo is starting to make a splash with their new digital integrated, and Marantz HT receivers are being pretty widely accepted as decent since coming under D&M's umbrella. From what I understand, and some one feel free to correct me, D&M only does Marantz's receivers. I believe the other lines are under another companies control. D&M also has Denon. I was always interested in hearing the Marantz integrated that cost about $500.00 and was Class A switchable to Class A/B. You are sure right though that Marantz, the name, has been passed through many hands since they built the gear you have.

    Marantz Reference line is high end...They manufacture and sell many more models over seas than they do here in the States. D&M is a holding company that Holds all of the Marantz Stock. Marantz is a huge player in the electronics field even making High End Plazma and LCD TV's ,and High End Home theater Projectors.

    frenchmon
  • 12-23-2007, 11:55 PM
    Wireworm5
    What makes an audiophile an audiophile?
    You'll have all kinds of definitions on what makes an audiophile. But really an audiophile is someone who invests much of his free time critically listening to music. Non-audiophiles will spend their time doing countless other things like video game, tinkering with cars, etc..These people might listen to the radio or turn the stereo on for a hour at the end of the day, but it's not their passion.Everyone will say they like music.
  • 12-24-2007, 12:21 AM
    Wireworm5
    What makes a system hi-end is the level of sound quality. It generally goes with quality equipment, but if you are a wise shopper you can acquire good used stuff at a fraction of what it would cost to buy new.
    For example: I was at a friend's place listening to his stereo, it was very good but not hi-end. My next visit he had changed amps and source. The sound from his speaker was completely different than what I had heard the first time. This was hi-end sound. And it was a fraction of the cost that I spent building my system.
    But hey, you might not like hi-end sound. It may sound foreign to what your use to.
    I never knew what hi-end sound was either but over the years my system has evolved to hi-end sound. Basically hi-end is as close to a live instrument music as you can get with recorded audio playback.
  • 12-24-2007, 01:43 AM
    pixelthis
    MR p IS RIGHT, THERE IS NO SUCH THING as a "high end" receiver,
    if you're talking about audio, that is.
    Receivers got started late 60's, 70's, and helped the audio revolution a great deal, but they have always been compromised.
    None of these apply to HT, where digital and foley effects arent high end to start out with,
    making the reciever a great choice for HT
    Audiowise you dont need seperates, but they help, your amp at least needs to be an integrated.
    High end audio is a different kettle of fish, I have seen 2 channel systems costing several hundred grand. Outlaw makes some "cheap " stuff, on the other hand that is every bit "high end". The reveiwer for their "retro" stereo receiver was quite surprized that it kept up with much more expensive gear.
    I will tell you this, weather HT or audio, paying more than two grand for a receiver is
    REDICULOUS .
    Dont care if it DOES have a torodial coil in the power supply, you are way past the law of diminishing returns.
    None of these "monster" receivers have anything you need, even for a large living room,
    and for HT they arent enough, you need seperates.
    When I see a 3,000 receiver I think, like the commercial for V8 juice, "wow, you could have had seperates!"
    Outlaw has monoblocks for a price that gets you seven for less than two grand, leaving a grand for the or someone elses modest pre-pro, all of which will sound BETTER than the ritziest receiver. Or you could get an outlaw seven channel amp for 800 bucks, at 75wpc, mated to a really nice prepro you're still ahead.
    I guess "high end" is in the eye of the beholder, with two grand I could get a "system" that would be, to me, "high end" (two channel of course)
    You just have to know how to shop:1:
  • 12-24-2007, 10:31 AM
    Mr Peabody
    Wireworm, brings to mind a couple good thoughts. We all, or most, Bassite not included, started with receivers or modest beginnings and high end is foreign sounding until you learn what's what. I remember my first true high end experience was listening to a pair of $25k Dynaudio driven by a Krell amp that looked like a steam trunk. I come waltzing in with a Great White CD and have the guy playit. This probably gave him his first chuckle. I commented my Kenwood integrated and Kappa 7's had more midbass. This probably really got him rolling but he maintained himself and dropped in Paula Cole. When that first track hit the really low bass and the room shook, I felt the bass inside me, I about lost bowel control. So there is a learning curve.

    Audiophile is a state of mind. I can sit and listen to music by myself in a dark room and everyone thinks I'm crazy. They say, "I can't just sit, I have to be doing something". Well doing something just makes the music background and it's not really being seriously listened to. I listen to more music than watch TV or movies. I believe these are traits of an audiophile.

    Snodog, some wise person once said, "if you aren't prepared for the answer, then don't ask the question". I don't know who put the burr under your saddle but I didn't notice anyone saying you had to spend a certain amount of money to be an audiophile. The point is some gear is considered "high end" and some is not. If you are a doctor and you buy your system from Best Buy, you are either ignorant (not the same as stupid, just unlearned) or you are definitely not an audiophile. If you are a working stiff who has to buy a NAD integrated from Audiogon along with a decent set of speakers and you can't wait to tuck the kids in so you can play your new CD, then I think you are an audiophile. Like I said it's a frame of mind, a passion one has and this leads you to do the best you can with what you have. I have no respect for those who drive mega dollar cars and vacation out of the country yet have a HT receiver set up and want to come here and try to tell me things like cables don't matter or CD players sound the same. Along with labelling one's self an audiophile also comes a certain amount of knowledge and experience. This doesn't mean audiophiles will always agree and most of the time we don't. That's why people can ask advice all they want but in order to know for sure one has to try things and listen for themselves.

    Besides that what the hell if you aren't an audiophile, maybe you just want to have home theater and some background music. There's nothing wrong with that and you are just as welcome to talk set up, receivers or whatever, as anyone else. It's not worth getting upset about. If you want help with a system you just have to decide your budget and what exactly you want. If you want music playback and the best quality for $1k, you can get suggestions for that or if you want best options of HT receiver, that too. But if you ask for one thing when you really mean another, you can't get upset at us if you get the wrong answer.

    I really consider myself an audiophile since childhood but it was probably not until the last 10 or so years that I was actually able to acquire what I consider high end gear. As a kid I collected records in elementary school. I only had a suit case looking record player. The passion was there though and never left. I was on a long road of receivers and speakers. I got a job at an audio store and employee purchase an elite Kenwood integrated and a pair of Infinity Kappa 7's. I had this system for years. Then when I had a bit more money, or better credit line, I really started a journey.

    How's that for a post, that's what happens when you get up early and drink one cup of coffee too many :)
  • 12-24-2007, 04:07 PM
    snodog
    Oh I wasn't upset at all friend, only too much of the holiday beverages talking. That was very well explained by the way, by all of you. I very much appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions (which are genuine). I understand where you are coming from. I am more passionate about art myself with music being secondary but usually present.
  • 12-25-2007, 01:52 AM
    pixelthis
    If there are any "audiophiles" on this board its you, mr p.
    My experience too has been long and hardfought.
    My system is primarily HT, but I think that was a mistake. I miss the days when I had
    a two channel system.
    I am giving up the "track" for a new years resolution, so maybe I will try to put my 602's
    into a modest integrated amp/CDPLAYER/ turntable, use the 305's for the HT,
    get some cheapos for the back...
    I too sit in the dark and play discs, I have to turn off my TV, and nothing has ever been more fun than a great sound stage spread across the room, with your favorite music
    coming outta it.
    That system will be "high end" to me
  • 12-25-2007, 05:30 AM
    Mr Peabody
    There are integrated amps that offer a "theater bypass" that will allow you an input for the front main channels of you receiver's preamp outs. This will allow you the option of using the integrated to drive the mains and then you don't need to buy or use different speakers.

    Another thing you might try is an external DAC for your changer and use the analog input of your receiver. This would give an improvement. You would have to do this anyway or include a better CD player with your integrated to gain a significant improvement.

    Happy Holidays to all.
  • 12-25-2007, 06:02 AM
    melvin walker
    Seperation mid range and high end /
    In my opinion an audiophile is an audio hobbyist who searches for an audio system that
    is as close to live music as possible. Powell Symphony Hall in St.Louis years ago would present a live vs recorded sound exhibit every other year until 1973.
    The comparison exhibit was sponsored by Bozak speaker company with participation by Fisher and Scott.

    Powell symphony hall has one of the finest acoustic environments in America. There is no need for speakers doing performances.
    One of the exhibits used Bozak Concert Grand speakers tri-amped , Marantz 7C pre-amp , 6 model 9 power amps , Tandberg Model 6041X and Crown CX822 tape recorder.
    First generation tapes were used.

    There was also a similar live vs recorded exhibit held in Kansas City , Missouri. Not as well done as the one in St.Louis but close.
    JBL Hartsfield speakers , McIntosh MC 22 pre-amp , two Mac 60's , Crown CX822 , Ampex PR-10 tape recorder.
    JBL was one of the sponsors. I don't remember the place where it was held in Kansas City.

    Chicago also held such exhibits, major audio manufactures were sponsors. Audiophiles would come from all over. .
    That was before discount stores such as Best Buy , Pacific Stereo came into existence.
    Audio was only sold by audio stores. Salesmen were generally audiophiles.
    Yes times have changed.
  • 12-25-2007, 08:38 AM
    snodog
    I have to say that as much as I would love to buy separate components (for the integrity of music) it may not be the best choice since I do use my system for such a variety of things. The time is equally spent from music listening to dish tv to ps3 game-play and movies. Music is second to none with you audiophiles. Any suggestions on systems that would work best AND if I did want separates are there any illustrated comprehensive guides on how to set up as I would have no clue. I did some looking on google and really couldn't find any.
  • 12-25-2007, 09:17 AM
    blackraven
    Snodog, for what you want any of the Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha or Denon sub $1,000 receivers will be just fine. One of the problems with this web site is that some people think that you can only get good sound from high priced equipment and that is not always the case. IMO, you can get very good sound with good speakers, CDP and just about any of the mid priced receivers. Certainly, high priced equipment will take it to the next level, but not every one is willing to spend that kind of money. It also depends on what type of music you listen to. I wouldnt waste my money on $10,000's of equipment if all I listened to was heavey metal music.

    It's all a matter of perspective. There are audiophiles who have systems costing $20,000 or more and they might think a 10K system sucks.
  • 12-25-2007, 09:24 AM
    melvin walker
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by snodog
    I have to say that as much as I would love to buy separate components (for the integrity of music) it may not be the best choice since I do use my system for such a variety of things. The time is equally spent from music listening to dish tv to ps3 game-play and movies. Music is second to none with you audiophiles. Any suggestions on systems that would work best AND if I did want separates are there any illustrated comprehensive guides on how to set up as I would have no clue. I did some looking on google and really couldn't find any.

    Audiophiles are little different from car hobbyist. As a member of several car clubs , Porsche , Jaguar , BMW , Mercedes and Corvette car clubs. The aim of many car hobbyist is to acquire the finest automobile . cars of course are much more expensive.
    Cars are not second but first interest. I have see members of the Porsche club treat their Carrera better than their wives.

    I have had friends myself included who were car hobbyist as well as audio hobbyist.
    There is no single car car that can solve all of one's driving needs ,ie separates.
    Sport car , four door sedan , utility car , GT car and stationwagon.
    Each one serving a different need.
    No one would own only a Porsche Carrera or a 12 cylinder coupe.

    The same can be said of audio , Pre-amp , power amp , tuner each serving a different purpose. The receiver is close ,but only close no matter how well built.
    Is a Mercedes S series sedan the same , close , but only close. I hope you get my point.
  • 12-25-2007, 10:53 AM
    snodog
    Yes Melvin, I do understand your point. I also know that I will probably never have the opportunity to drive much less own a Porsche. I suppose I will just stick within my means and buy the best I can for what I can afford.
  • 12-25-2007, 12:38 PM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Wireworm, brings to mind a couple good thoughts. We all, or most, Bassite not included, started with receivers or modest beginnings and high end is foreign sounding until you learn what's what. I remember my first true high end experience was listening to a pair of $25k Dynaudio driven by a Krell amp that looked like a steam trunk. I come waltzing in with a Great White CD and have the guy playit. This probably gave him his first chuckle. I commented my Kenwood integrated and Kappa 7's had more midbass. This probably really got him rolling but he maintained himself and dropped in Paula Cole. When that first track hit the really low bass and the room shook, I felt the bass inside me, I about lost bowel control. So there is a learning curve.

    Audiophile is a state of mind. I can sit and listen to music by myself in a dark room and everyone thinks I'm crazy. They say, "I can't just sit, I have to be doing something". Well doing something just makes the music background and it's not really being seriously listened to. I listen to more music than watch TV or movies. I believe these are traits of an audiophile.

    Snodog, some wise person once said, "if you aren't prepared for the answer, then don't ask the question". I don't know who put the burr under your saddle but I didn't notice anyone saying you had to spend a certain amount of money to be an audiophile. The point is some gear is considered "high end" and some is not. If you are a doctor and you buy your system from Best Buy, you are either ignorant (not the same as stupid, just unlearned) or you are definitely not an audiophile. If you are a working stiff who has to buy a NAD integrated from Audiogon along with a decent set of speakers and you can't wait to tuck the kids in so you can play your new CD, then I think you are an audiophile. Like I said it's a frame of mind, a passion one has and this leads you to do the best you can with what you have. I have no respect for those who drive mega dollar cars and vacation out of the country yet have a HT receiver set up and want to come here and try to tell me things like cables don't matter or CD players sound the same. Along with labelling one's self an audiophile also comes a certain amount of knowledge and experience. This doesn't mean audiophiles will always agree and most of the time we don't. That's why people can ask advice all they want but in order to know for sure one has to try things and listen for themselves.

    Besides that what the hell if you aren't an audiophile, maybe you just want to have home theater and some background music. There's nothing wrong with that and you are just as welcome to talk set up, receivers or whatever, as anyone else. It's not worth getting upset about. If you want help with a system you just have to decide your budget and what exactly you want. If you want music playback and the best quality for $1k, you can get suggestions for that or if you want best options of HT receiver, that too. But if you ask for one thing when you really mean another, you can't get upset at us if you get the wrong answer.

    I really consider myself an audiophile since childhood but it was probably not until the last 10 or so years that I was actually able to acquire what I consider high end gear. As a kid I collected records in elementary school. I only had a suit case looking record player. The passion was there though and never left. I was on a long road of receivers and speakers. I got a job at an audio store and employee purchase an elite Kenwood integrated and a pair of Infinity Kappa 7's. I had this system for years. Then when I had a bit more money, or better credit line, I really started a journey.

    How's that for a post, that's what happens when you get up early and drink one cup of coffee too many :)

    And I loved that post Mr. Peabody! I agreed with everything you said. But next time you get that cup of coffee, you got listen to my girl Eliane Elias. She is just wonderful. I think Diana Krall wants to be her when she grows up.

    Just a note here to tell you I miss my home town St.Louis. I've been here in Durham NC for 8 years now and want to come home. I remember the days I use to go over to "Music For Pleasure" and look at geer and listen to music. Do you know if they are still around?

    frenchmon
  • 12-25-2007, 12:51 PM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    If there are any "audiophiles" on this board its you, mr p.
    My experience too has been long and hardfought.
    My system is primarily HT, but I think that was a mistake. I miss the days when I had
    a two channel system.
    I am giving up the "track" for a new years resolution, so maybe I will try to put my 602's
    into a modest integrated amp/CDPLAYER/ turntable, use the 305's for the HT,
    get some cheapos for the back...
    I too sit in the dark and play discs, I have to turn off my TV, and nothing has ever been more fun than a great sound stage spread across the room, with your favorite music
    coming outta it.
    That system will be "high end" to me

    Yeah Mr Peabody and Pixelthis. I too remember way back then in the 70's and 80's I would get wasted on boos and drugs and lsiten to my music. I had a big old Tashiba reciever driving some Radio Shack Speakers. I also had a Reel To Reel...I thinik it was a Pioneer. I would listen in the dark for hours. Now fast forward I have not drank and did drugs sense the late 80's and I still listen at night to two channel music, and sober at that. My wife thinks I'm wierd. But its a great excape for me. Nothing sooths me more that a good piece...music that is. All alone by my lonesome.

    If you guy's don't have your own space away from life where its just you and your audio girlfriend, that is your two channel rigg, and your collection of music all alone in the dark with your imagination, Then you should seriously think about it. Tell the wifey and kids that this is your man cave and to stay away. It will do wonders for you.

    frenchmon
  • 12-25-2007, 12:59 PM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melvin walker
    In my opinion an audiophile is an audio hobbyist who searches for an audio system that
    is as close to live music as possible. Powell Symphony Hall in St.Louis years ago would present a live vs recorded sound exhibit every other year until 1973.
    The comparison exhibit was sponsored by Bozak speaker company with participation by Fisher and Scott.

    Powell symphony hall has one of the finest acoustic environments in America. There is no need for speakers doing performances.
    One of the exhibits used Bozak Concert Grand speakers tri-amped , Marantz 7C pre-amp , 6 model 9 power amps , Tandberg Model 6041X and Crown CX822 tape recorder.
    First generation tapes were used.

    There was also a similar live vs recorded exhibit held in Kansas City , Missouri. Not as well done as the one in St.Louis but close.
    JBL Hartsfield speakers , McIntosh MC 22 pre-amp , two Mac 60's , Crown CX822 , Ampex PR-10 tape recorder.
    JBL was one of the sponsors. I don't remember the place where it was held in Kansas City.

    Chicago also held such exhibits, major audio manufactures were sponsors. Audiophiles would come from all over. .
    That was before discount stores such as Best Buy , Pacific Stereo came into existence.
    Audio was only sold by audio stores. Salesmen were generally audiophiles.
    Yes times have changed.


    Oh how I miss the Midwest . St.Louis....Kansas City....Chicago... Maulls BBQ ...Tosted Ravioli...The Hill, Forest Park, Central West End.


    Oh I miss St. Louis.


    frenchmon