"It's the Multichannel, Stupid"

[Mike Anderson]

Of all the stores I've visited in the Bay Area, only two of them demoed multichannel systems with the speakers in an alignment approximating the ITU-775 reference 5.1 alignment (which is what mixing studios use for multichannel music).

And those stores were...?

As a fellow SF Bay Arean 2-channel lover, I'd be interested in checking them out.

[Bernd]

As for SirTTs mention off my uneducated post. So be it. I also think very highly of your writings.
Never been to a live event? Who me? I leave it at that.
As for hall ambience I agree that certain places have been designed to sound great. But how many have speakers placed behind you? I have never seen one. And then again I couldn't have as I have never been to a live event.
In my experience the sound is reflected from the side and the back of the venue and that is exactly what my 2 channel set up does, helped by correct room treatments. The last thing I want is a direct source coming from the sides or from behind me.
But as I said all along if that what people like good on them, just not for me. More is not always better.I easy can hear ambient information where they are.
And if you invest in really good equipment and two speakers in the first place you will not need half a dozen boxes. Also look at the cost issue in speaker cable. I happen to believe they make a difference. So if I use the same quality all round it becomes very very expensive. So again not for me.
Whatever sounds right to you and gives you that tingling feeling is the right set up for you.
So where did I put my maiden concert ticket.............

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

Feanor -

I totally agree with you about the virtues of multichannel. As Terrence and Kex have already mentioned, a good multichannel recording along with a properly timbre matched and calibrated multichannel system can reproduce specific facets of live performance that I have never heard properly reproduced by any two-channel system. In my listenings, much of this has to do with accurately rendering the hall ambience, specifically placing the seating location and conveying the size of the space, and stabilizing the side imaging and giving the front soundstage depth.

Doesn't matter how much people invest in a two-channel setup, there are specific things that two channels simply cannot do, and the limitations are evident by comparing a good multichannel mix with the two-channel mixdown of the same recording. For example, the San Francisco Symphony's Mahler series has been issued as 5.1 SACD/CD hybrid discs. As great as the two-channel mixes sound, the 5.1 tracks simply render an entirely different listening dimension that IMO is truer to how Davies Symphony Hall actually sounds (I typically attend 3-4 shows a year at Davies, and will go there again in two weeks for Mahler's Eighth [the epic Symphony of a Thousand]). From having attended one of those recorded Mahler concerts, I know that the mic position just forward of the podium. And accordingly, the 5.1 subjectively puts the listening on the stage at the conductor position, a perspective that two-channels simply cannot render.

With Mobile Fidelity's reissues of the Vox quad recordings done by Marc Aubort and Joanna Nickrenz, the capture of the hall ambience gives the listener a sense of space that the two-channel mixdown simply does not convey as deliberately or consistently.

I think a big part of the resistance to multichannel, aside from inertia and how strongly a lot of consumers associate multichannel only with movies and not with music, is simply the difficulty of finding a properly done demonstration setup. Optimizing a multichannel setup takes a lot more than simply placing the speakers on the floor and tweaking with everything by ear. In order to get multichannel alignment to sound optimal, you have to get the timbre match right, the angling has to be optimal and symmetrical (much more difficult to do with five speakers than with two), and the processor settings have to be accounted for, as do issues with the room acoustics and location. This entails measuring and using things like measuring tapes, SPL meters, and protractors to get the reference points consistent.

Of all the stores I've visited in the Bay Area, only two of them demoed multichannel systems with the speakers in an alignment approximating the ITU-775 reference 5.1 alignment (which is what mixing studios use for multichannel music). The others used any number of different alignments (often just sitting on a shelf, or installed on the wall at an assymetrial alignment, or not timbre matched, etc.), none of which could properly render the full depth and imaging that multichannel mixes are capable of. And just in my time visiting store demo rooms, I've found that most of the receivers/processors are not set correctly, even at high end stores, because the customers will often tinker with the settings. If this is what people are using to judge multichannel audio, then it's no wonder they're so quick to dismiss its attributes.

Recording engineers are only beginning to learn what to do with the extra channels. Just as there are bad stereo mixes, you'll find bad 5.1 mixes as well. But, in order to get the multichannel playback right, there are simply more steps that require optimizing.

Wooch,

I can only speak for myself and I can assure you that I am not against progress, on the contary I welcome it, but not for change sake. If it is a genuine improvement I will go for it.
A couple of points:
I still can't see how a mass produced all in one multi channel amplifier and speaker can out perform a specialist product. If you look at the parts used I am certain you will not find any high quality parts in the mass market products. Therefore it is impossible to have a giant killer.

Which brings me to this point about my lacking education and a challenge to my multi channel friends.
I would like you all to recommend a readily available multichannel set up (for music only) that would out perform my 2 channel Vinyl Tube based rig and enhance my listening enjoyment over what I experience now.
Once we have a consensus I am pretty certain that I can get the gear on home approval (talked to a couple of dealer friends already), if not I will buy it, because if I have missed the multi channel digital boat I will keep it anyway and sell my 2 channel system.
I also pledge to have it installed professionaly and after a decent long run in period I will hold listening sessions with both and with whoever wants to partake.
The room will be my office which is roughly the same size as my listening room (slightly longer, but not by much).
I would also need recommendations for the same music available on Vinyl and SACD,DVD-A, etc.
So lets see what we can find out.

I am thinking along the lines of these:
Pathos Cinema-X amp
Ayre C-5xe multi format player
ART Stiletto speakers

Peace

Bernd

[GMichael]

Wooch,

I can only speak for myself and I can assure you that I am not against progress, on the contary I welcome it, but not for change sake. If it is a genuine improvement I will go for it.
A couple of points:
I still can't see how a mass produced all in one multi channel amplifier and speaker can out perform a specialist product. If you look at the parts used I am certain you will not find any high quality parts in the mass market products. Therefore it is impossible to have a giant killer.

Which brings me to this point about my lacking education and a challenge to my multi channel friends.
I would like you all to recommend a readily available multichannel set up (for music only) that would out perform my 2 channel Vinyl Tube based rig and enhance my listening enjoyment over what I experience now.
Once we have a consensus I am pretty certain that I can get the gear on home approval (talked to a couple of dealer friends already), if not I will buy it, because if I have missed the multi channel digital boat I will keep it anyway and sell my 2 channel system.
I also pledge to have it installed professionaly and after a decent long run in period I will hold listening sessions with both and with however wants to partake.
The room will be my office which is roughly the same size as my listening room (slightly longer, but not by much).
I would also need recommendations for the same music available on Vinyl and SACD,DVD-A, etc.
So lets see what we can find out.

I am thinking along the lines of these:
Pathos Cinema-X amp
Ayre C-5xe multi format player
ART Stiletto speakers

Peace

Bernd

Ooooh A project. That's cool. As I'm only a mid-fi guy so far, I'm not sure that I can give out hi-fi advice. Actually, I'm sure that I can't. But what the heck, I'll give it a shot. I would love to hear a couple of Maggie 3.6's with MC1's as surrounds and a CC3 center.
But I do believe that I remember you saying that panels are not your cup of tea. Maybe my dream wouldn't work for you. Is there a budget we should stay in? Maybe a new thread with all the rules. The multi channel challenge?
This sounds like fun Bernd. Great idea!

[Resident Loser]

...that, with few exceptions, multi-channel (along with ever-changing media) is an industry-wide contrivance...engineered to render, on a regular basis, most hi-fi systems obsolete, behind-the-times, old school, whatever and to provide a plausible reason to repackage/reissue the paid-for (many times over) catalog of music already in the archives...Couple that last reason to the dearth of capable songwriters/performers and fact that most of the so-called new music is cr@p and you got yerself a fool-proof business plan...

jimHJJ(...as the bar gets lower...)

[PAT.P]

Maybe a new thread with all the rules. The multi channel challenge?
This sounds like fun Bernd. Great idea!

Bring it on For Music I had to try all morning and the Multi Channel in Stereo won .The room was more full from all point,and more imaging.I cant listen to music in this without my centre channel(the voice is so real) I got 2 more CC to add to this one and cant wait.Will give me 5 ft but dont have the nerve to bring my power amp in the living room(still hidden in basement) the wife will freak out

[GMichael]

...that, with few exceptions, multi-channel (along with ever-changing media) is an industry-wide contrivance...engineered to render, on a regular basis, most hi-fi systems obsolete, behind-the-times, old school, whatever and to provide a plausible reason to repackage/reissue the paid-for (many times over) catalog of music already in the archives...Couple that last reason to the dearth of capable songwriters/performers and fact that most of the so-called new music is cr@p and you got yerself a fool-proof business plan...

jimHJJ(...as the bar gets lower...)

Uhm.. You may be spot on. But it's fun anyhow.

[Bernd]

Ooooh A project. That's cool. As I'm only a mid-fi guy so far, I'm not sure that I can give out hi-fi advice. Actually, I'm sure that I can't. But what the heck, I'll give it a shot. I would love to hear a couple of Maggie 3.6's with MC1's as surrounds and a CC3 center.
But I do believe that I remember you saying that panels are not your cup of tea. Maybe my dream wouldn't work for you. Is there a budget we should stay in? Maybe a new thread with all the rules. The multi channel challenge?
This sounds like fun Bernd. Great idea!

I don't think the room will be big enough for Maggies, but it's good to have them in the mix. As for cost I would think it to stay within the cost of my 2 channel set up.
So go on give it a shot.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

...that, with few exceptions, multi-channel (along with ever-changing media) is an industry-wide contrivance...engineered to render, on a regular basis, most hi-fi systems obsolete, behind-the-times, old school, whatever and to provide a plausible reason to repackage/reissue the paid-for (many times over) catalog of music already in the archives...Couple that last reason to the dearth of capable songwriters/performers and fact that most of the so-called new music is cr@p and you got yerself a fool-proof business plan...

jimHJJ(...as the bar gets lower...)

My sentiment exactely Jim. Couldn't have put it better myself. Hence the challenge.
How is everything your end?

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

Will give me 5 ft but dont have the nerve to bring my power amp in the living room(still hidden in basement) the wife will freak out

Pat, are you man or mouse? Out with the power amp.

Peace

Bernd

[GMichael]

I don't think the room will be big enough for Maggies, but it's good to have them in the mix. As for cost I would think it to stay within the cost of my 2 channel set up.
So go on give it a shot.

Peace

Bernd

Can you give us a rundown of the costs?

Speakers:
Amps:
Processors:
Cables:
Acoustic dampening:
Misc:

[Feanor]

Ooooh A project. That's cool. As I'm only a mid-fi guy so far, I'm not sure that I can give out hi-fi advice. Actually, I'm sure that I can't. But what the heck, I'll give it a shot. I would love to hear a couple of Maggie 3.6's with MC1's as surrounds and a CC3 center.
But I do believe that I remember you saying that panels are not your cup of tea. Maybe my dream wouldn't work for you. Is there a budget we should stay in? Maybe a new thread with all the rules. The multi channel challenge?
This sounds like fun Bernd. Great idea!

Much and all though I love my Maggie 1.6's, I wonder whether dipolars are the way to go. For one thing they take a lot of space as Bernd has pointed out. -- I don't have that kind of space in my HT setup.

The other thing pertains to dispersion and room reflectionss. I definitely don't agree with Bernd's original remark that rooms reflections can simulate concert halls; (Bernd, do you retract this?). I suspect that in an ideal MC setup you want to control room reflections even more than in a stereo set up -- any agreement there?? That being the case, perhaps you want limited/controls dispersion speakers, (say, studio monitor type), as well as room treatments. Controlled dispersion rules out dipolars, mains at least, IMO.

[Resident Loser]

Uhm.. You may be spot on. But it's fun anyhow.

...differing definitions of fun...

jimHJJ(...but that's why they make vanilla and chocolate...)

[GMichael]

...differing definitions of fun...

jimHJJ(...but that's why they make vanilla and chocolate...)

My definetion.

Fun: The act of doing something that makes me smile, or the hairs on my arms stand up.

Are we close?

[GMichael]

Much and all though I love my Maggie 1.6's, I wonder whether dipolars are the way to go. For one thing they take a lot of space as Bernd has pointed out. -- I don't have that kind of space in my HT setup.

The other thing pertains to dispersion and room reflectionss. I definitely don't agree with Bernd's original remark that rooms reflections can simulate concert halls; (Bernd, do you retract this?). I suspect that in an ideal MC setup you want to control room reflections even more than in a stereo set up -- any agreement there?? That being the case, perhaps you want limited/controls dispersion speakers, (say, studio monitor type), as well as room treatments. Controlled dispersion rules out dipolars, mains at least, IMO.

Oh, I see your point. I was thinking of my basement project. I guess we'll need a room size also Bernd.
Anything else I left out guys?

[Bernd]

Can you give us a rundown of the costs?

Speakers:
Amps:
Processors:
Cables:
Acoustic dampening:
Misc:

Not really. As I think that would be restrictive.Just recommend what you are happy with, what you own, or would buy and that it will surpass my 2 channel system and my enjoyment listening through it. That's the challenge.
Forget about room treatment in this, as I will take care of that separetly.
I just want to put this unwinable arguement to the test. Once we have jointly selected a system I will go ahead and get the components and then we will see.
Room size: 6m x 4.8m x 2.7m two windows on one long wall.
The things I do for this hobby.

Peace

Bernd

[Resident Loser]

My sentiment exactely Jim. Couldn't have put it better myself. Hence the challenge.
How is everything your end?

Peace

Bernd

...some folks can't see the forest for the trees and view all technological change as something good...

OK over here...absolutely beautiful day...yesterday's winds have given us a clear sky, some puffy clouds, low humidity and an AM temp of 45 degrees with an expected high only in the mid-60s...give me 365 days of this a year and I'd be a happy man...

jimHJJ(...it makes you feel alive...)

[Bernd]

Much and all though I love my Maggie 1.6's, I wonder whether dipolars are the way to go. For one thing they take a lot of space as Bernd has pointed out. -- I don't have that kind of space in my HT setup.

The other thing pertains to dispersion and room reflectionss. I definitely don't agree with Bernd's original remark that rooms reflections can simulate concert halls; (Bernd, do you retract this?). I suspect that in an ideal MC setup you want to control room reflections even more than in a stereo set up -- any agreement there?? That being the case, perhaps you want limited/controls dispersion speakers, (say, studio monitor type), as well as room treatments. Controlled dispersion rules out dipolars, mains at least, IMO.

I didn't mean that the reflections in my room are the same as in the recording venue. To that effect I'll retract that. I meant that with the right room treatment I can manipulate the sound, but I do not want an active source from behind my head- well up to now. We will see what this experiement does.
Thanks for pulling me up on that, still a bit fragile from too much Scotch last night.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

...some folks can't see the forest for the trees and view all technological change as something good...

OK over here...absolutely beautiful day...yesterday's winds have given us a clear sky, some puffy clouds, low humidity and an AM temp of 45 degrees with an expected high only in the mid-60s...give me 365 days of this a year and I'd be a happy man...

jimHJJ(...it makes you feel alive...)

Mirror image weather wise here, just a bit cooler. But yes that's the right weather for 365.
Take it easy.

Peace

Bernd

[kexodusc]

I still can't see how a mass produced all in one multi channel amplifier and speaker can out perform a specialist product.

I'm not sure how you went from the debate of multichannel audio (which I will refer to as MC to save me from typing) vs. stereo to automatically associating MC with "mass market" products.
There is no restriction on which products you buy when it comes to building an MC setup. Any reason why you would presume to limit MC as such? I could be wrong, but it would appear you're not even giving it a chance. I hope that's not the case.
The only thing "mass market" in my MC setup is my mid-fi a/v receiver. I use it strictly as a pre-amp/processor, as it is much cheaper than "higher end" pre-pros I've tested while giving up nothing I could hear in terms of sound quality. I don't associate all "mass market" with being bad, either...in this case, it was cheaper and better for me. Though I do think an even better pre-pro would slightly improve 2-channel playback on this system (which isn't primarily what I use it for - have a 2-channel rig for that).

There's no reason why you couldn't buy 3 more speakers to match the 2 you already have, if your budget supports it. My 2-channel rig cost me more than my 7.1 home theater setup, but I have to admit I find the multi-channel audio playback even on lower end, but capable equipment to be a more rewarding experience than my higher resolution stereo.

I'm sorry I can't recommend the speakers to you unless you want to build them, but I do believe these results can be replicated with retail models.

If you look at the parts used I am certain you will not find any high quality parts in the mass market products. Therefore it is impossible to have a giant killer.

I guess this depends on your definition of "high quality" parts. From someone who buys his own components to build speakers, I can say that higher quality parts don't always translate into perfromance improvements. I ordered one pair of my home theater's speakers with standard grade components. The second pair I built I made some changes -used 14 gauge inductors instead of 18, used metallized poly caps and film caps with 1% tolerances instead of 10% and 5% tolerances. Oddly enough, the 10% tolerance cap actually measured better than my 5% tolerance cap. At any rate, when I measured my speakers performance there was no improvement - I certainly couldn't hear an improvement. I went back to the less expensive parts for the next pair. (I'll admit I use the most expensive pair in the front l/r position though, just in case).

There's more and more small speaker companies starting up these days that use the same grade of componentry previously found only in much higher-end speakers. If smaller companies have the time to test and match each component themselves (instead of batch testing large production runs) lower cost components with less strict tolerance ranges can be used effectively.

Sometimes we just have to shop harder. http://tyleracoustics.com/taylo.html

Tyler Acoustics is one such company that offers great performance and value compared to a lot of big brand name companies I know. Small company, superior value. They only use quality drivers, components and cabinets.

Of course, you can buy a speaker kit of similar performance and the same parts with cabinets in a T-line system, designed by Dr. D'Appolito himself for for about 1/3 the cost of the retail versions, Tyler Acoustics offers.
http://www.madisound.com/thor.html
It requires some assembly on your part, the cabinets might not be as pretty. To each his own.

Just trying to make a point, good deals can be found if one looks hard enough.

[E-Stat]

For real improvement look to multichannel.

I have no doubt that multi-channel done right is superior to two channel. Certainly the work being done by engineers like TtT is providing real improvements.

Having said that, there are numerous stumbling blocks (as least to me).

1. 99% of my music library is two channel.
2. Unlike the vinyl to CD conversion, most of what I have is simply not available in MC.
3. There is definitely a qualitative compromise when the budget must be divided into far more pieces. Others may reasonably disagree. I have been accustomed to the ultra purity of full range stats for so long I can neither go back nor afford three more Sound Lab units.

I have heard HP's Super Maggie system which is definitely spectacular with movies. I confess I didn't hear a lot of MC recordings the last time I was there, but I was not as impressed with it as I am his main (killer) two channel system. He uses MG 20.1 mains, four Nola Thunderbolt subs, dual stacked CC-3 centers, and 1.6 rears driven by Edge amplification, Meitner SACD DAC / transport, Krell processor, with Nordost Valhalla cabling for signal and power alike.

If, however, I were to start out from scratch today - zero music library and no system, perhaps I would think differently.

rw

[Bernd]

Hi Kex,

I put the parts quality issue in as it was that mostly that got me started. I kept reading the glowing accounts of how much fellow AR Members enjoy their MC over the 2 channel set ups. And then I take a look at the equipment list used and it's nothing special and therefore I gather that no great parts are used. I am talking about parts from Hovland,Black Gates, Jensen, Muhndorf, Clarity,etc.
So please feel free to suggest what gear I should try out to get this project of the ground. That is the chance I will give to MC.

Peace

Bernd

[shokhead]

Denon 2106
Yamaha C750
4-Axiom M22v2
Axiom VP150vs center
SVS 20-39pci sum

[PAT.P]

Pat, are you man or mouse? Out with the power amp.

Peace

Bernd

But Im up the creek without a paddle at moment.She paid all my credit cards,just brought in another pair of speakers in the house(freebee's)some Hungary Videoton Saphir 1?(never heard of them),bought a Sharp 20" LCD for Mother's Day for bedroom She said no more spending until I pay her what I owe her

[Feanor]

I have no doubt that multi-channel done right is superior to two channel. Certainly the work being done by engineers like TtT is providing real improvements.

Having said that, there are numerous stumbling blocks (as least to me).

1. 99% of my music library is two channel.
2. Unlike the vinyl to CD conversion, most of what I have is simply not available in MC.
3. There is definitely a qualitative compromise when the budget must be divided into far more pieces. Others may reasonably disagree. I have been accustomed to the ultra purity of full range stats for so long I can neither go back nor afford three more Sound Lab units.
...
rw

Sadly it looks like SACD and DVD-A will remain niche products at best, so selection will tend to remain limited I dare say. Greed and marketing mistakes by Sony: so what else is new?

My collection is >90% CD too, (excluding my neglected vinyl). Certainly these factors work against my upgrading my MC setup as soon, and to the extent, I would like. DIY might help a bit, but I'll likely never match my stereo for component quality.