Results 1 to 21 of 21
  1. #1
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373

    Interesting Results.

    So over this past weekend I decided to try something different with my speakers, I have played around in the past with different combination, but decided to try something different in the mix. Here is what I did:

    My PSB Platinum T6's come with the choice of installing the rubber feet or the spikes, in the past I have gone back and forth depending on a few things. I initially put them on the carpet with the spikes, but then placed the speakers up on ceramic tiles that I bought to give them a sturdy base and that alone helped quite a bit, with the rubber feet now attached on the ceramic.

    However, this past weekend I changed things up again and decided to put the spikes back on, but this time put them on the ceramic. My initial thoughts were: I wonder if the spikes will crack through due to the weight and the sharpness of the spike, but after placing all 4 spikes on the bottom and doing a test run, the hard ceramic does just fine with the weight distributed across all 4 feet, so that wasn't an issue at all.

    I had no idea what to expect result-wise when I began testing out a few discs that I am very familiar with, but my jaw dropped from the first few moments of the very first disc when I became very aware of the immediate results, which were incredibly positive.

    For this being a fairly small tweak or enhancement, I am nearly kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner as it has really opened things up in some specific ways, mostly in the bass department and the separation now between mid and low end.

    The T6's are one of the best speakers I've heard when it comes to mid-range cohesiveness, which is one of the reasons that I purchased them to begin with. I have heard lots of speakers that have great high ends (like B&W or Paradigm), but always felt that the mid-range was lost or missing. I know that toying around with different EQ can help, but I wanted a speaker that without any help, could produce the mid-range levels accurately based on the source. The T6 brings to life the full spectrum of high to low, especially with the arrangement of the tweeter surrounded by 2 mid-range speakers in it's configuration, the low end has always been good, solid, and punchy, but the use of the spikes on the ceramic has elevated the speakers (similar to using speakers on a hardwood floor I suppose) and now the low end is more prominent overall, and feels less cloudy altogether. There is far more definition and I can hear better separation in instrumentation, specifically drums. One of the first discs that I tried out was the Mobile Fidelity Roy Orbison Greatest Hits CD and immediately was impressed with how snappy the drum kit is on the upbeat tunes, there is refinement in the lower chords and the entire mix feels even more spacious and open.

    I always like to be as detailed as possible when explaining improvements, but I will also add that while I feel my speakers are very revealing in good ways, they also showcase flaws and poor mixes just the same, this adjustment has also showed me where certain recordings have a very sloppy mix with regards to lower levels, less definition in the bass or heavier chords, I particularly noticed this when playing several odd selections, Batman & Robin Soundtrack is just one example. While the recording sounds dated to begin with, this adjustment has further brought to light the sloppy mixes and nearly muffled or distorted areas that should have more refinement. Bass is solid in certain areas, but the distinction between certain pitches leaves a lot to be desired.

    I think this same effect is true by giving the sub-woofer a bit of lift from the floor, I have mind elevated approximately 3/4 of an inch, which is about where the spikes place the T6's now and that seems to be just about enough to help with the sound-to-floor level.

    Has anyone else ever played around with their configuration or had the chance to try different things like this and if so....what were the results?

  2. #2
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Margate, Florida
    Posts
    614
    I have a front firing Klipsh sub that I have sitting on a rubbermaid stepstool about 8 inches off the floor. I have had other speakers in the past on stands off the floor. There is a very different bass response between having speakers on the floor versus off the floor on a stand in many cases. IMHO, off the floor speaker bass takes on a more even deep without bloated sound more to what I have heard in a movie theater whether it is for movies or music. This Klipsh subwoofer 10 took on a whole new sound when I did it. In the past when I had large floorstanding speakers they would also take on a nicer sound in the bass area when off the floor on stands.

  3. #3
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    4,380
    I figured this out years ago with a older pair of Mirage floorstanders. The bass was always muddy and muffled. I first used the spikes thru the carpet but not much changed. I had a few slabs of slate laying around and tried putting them under the spikes. I noticed enough improvement to prompt me to go to the stone yard and find something real. I got some real nice granite slabs a little over 1". I also got a set for my JM Labs bookshelf speakers.

    The improvement was very good. As you said, bass now had detail and separation and the muffle muddyness was gone.

    My recent change with the sub up on the rack is another great improvement for bass eliminating need for room treatment to compensate.

  4. #4
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373
    I guess I am just surprised by how dynamic of a change it is, I have made lots of minor changes here and there and often times the difference is very subtle that only someone who listens and knows the system well enough can detect the nuances, but this change is super-obvious, even my wife noticed a vast improvement!

  5. #5
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    4,380
    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    I guess I am just surprised by how dynamic of a change it is, I have made lots of minor changes here and there and often times the difference is very subtle that only someone who listens and knows the system well enough can detect the nuances, but this change is super-obvious, even my wife noticed a vast improvement!
    I agree but it could be dependent on the actual speaker itself, or sub for that matter. The difference I got by elevating my sub is like night and day. I have been spinning disks with very deep bass that had notes that you could barely even make out and now the notes are clear with correct tone.

    Test disks include Larry And Lee track 3, Rippingtons-Sahara, Marcus Miller M2, Yokeshire Masque of Shadows and several more.

  6. #6
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    659
    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies

    For this being a fairly small tweak or enhancement, I am nearly kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner as it has really opened things up in some specific ways, mostly in the bass department and the separation now between mid and low end.
    I get the bass improvement portion, but have a hard time understanding the additional separation of mids/highs....perhaps the elevation moved the tweeter closer to ear level and helps you hear a more defined high/mids...or was that what you were saying all alone?

  7. #7
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    4,380
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    I get the bass improvement portion, but have a hard time understanding the additional separation of mids/highs....perhaps the elevation moved the tweeter closer to ear level and helps you hear a more defined high/mids...or was that what you were saying all alone?
    The muffled bass overshadows the mids and highs, not that there is more of it after the lift. Because the bass is more clear and distinct, it doesn't drown out the rest.

  8. #8
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    4,380
    here are my granite isolation setups.

    JM Labs Tantal 509s in corner cabinets, which add bass, with a thin pc of sorbothane between cabinet and stone.

    Dymaudio 82s with Spikes and Granite blocks

    Mirage OM-12 sub on VTI BL shelf, several 2x2x1/2 thick blocks of sorbothane, granite slab
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Interesting Results.-jms.jpg   Interesting Results.-82s.jpg   Interesting Results.-sub-vti.jpg  

  9. #9
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    The muffled bass overshadows the mids and highs, not that there is more of it after the lift. Because the bass is more clear and distinct, it doesn't drown out the rest.
    Precisely. Thank you for stating this is a very clear way that I was not capable of, I often times try to be specific and should think less is more when it comes to putting it simply.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Margate, Florida
    Posts
    614
    HYFI, you look like you did a great job and you should really befitting audiowise from this. My sub is about that height off the ground and makes it sound absolutely terrific with a feeling that the deepest bass is coming from an infinite area inside the subs cone.

  11. #11
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    9,769
    Hyfi, I have a couple of questions.

    I can understand why putting speakers on granite instead of carpet would help the sound. But why would it make a difference over hardwood (or whatever you JMs are on)? Both are hard surfaces.

    Also, it looks likes your sub is on a small table or step stool and then set on something else in addition. What is it actually sitting on?

  12. #12
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    4,380
    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    Hyfi, I have a couple of questions.

    I can understand why putting speakers on granite instead of carpet would help the sound. But why would it make a difference over hardwood (or whatever you JMs are on)? Both are hard surfaces.

    Also, it looks likes your sub is on a small table or step stool and then set on something else in addition. What is it actually sitting on?
    1st the JMs- They are sitting in corner built in cabinets on the sides of fireplace in family room where previous owner had a TV. The cabinets resonate and vibrate when speakers are driven loud. What I have done is decouple them from the cabinets similar to putting them on quality stands.

    2nd the Sub- I ended up with an extra 7" VTI rack from when I ordered all the new racks and had a waranty issue and they sent me the shelf instead of the wooden top for the larger TV side of the racks. So the rack in on the floor, then 5 or six 2x2x1/2 inch pcs of Sorbothane, then the quarry stone slab. I get unbelievably clear precise bass now without the room vibrating and the floor and carpet sucking up the sound and muffling things up.

  13. #13
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    St. Charles Mo
    Posts
    3,271
    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    So over this past weekend I decided to try something different with my speakers, I have played around in the past with different combination, but decided to try something different in the mix. Here is what I did:

    My PSB Platinum T6's come with the choice of installing the rubber feet or the spikes, in the past I have gone back and forth depending on a few things. I initially put them on the carpet with the spikes, but then placed the speakers up on ceramic tiles that I bought to give them a sturdy base and that alone helped quite a bit, with the rubber feet now attached on the ceramic.

    However, this past weekend I changed things up again and decided to put the spikes back on, but this time put them on the ceramic. My initial thoughts were: I wonder if the spikes will crack through due to the weight and the sharpness of the spike, but after placing all 4 spikes on the bottom and doing a test run, the hard ceramic does just fine with the weight distributed across all 4 feet, so that wasn't an issue at all.

    I had no idea what to expect result-wise when I began testing out a few discs that I am very familiar with, but my jaw dropped from the first few moments of the very first disc when I became very aware of the immediate results, which were incredibly positive.

    For this being a fairly small tweak or enhancement, I am nearly kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner as it has really opened things up in some specific ways, mostly in the bass department and the separation now between mid and low end.

    The T6's are one of the best speakers I've heard when it comes to mid-range cohesiveness, which is one of the reasons that I purchased them to begin with. I have heard lots of speakers that have great high ends (like B&W or Paradigm), but always felt that the mid-range was lost or missing. I know that toying around with different EQ can help, but I wanted a speaker that without any help, could produce the mid-range levels accurately based on the source. The T6 brings to life the full spectrum of high to low, especially with the arrangement of the tweeter surrounded by 2 mid-range speakers in it's configuration, the low end has always been good, solid, and punchy, but the use of the spikes on the ceramic has elevated the speakers (similar to using speakers on a hardwood floor I suppose) and now the low end is more prominent overall, and feels less cloudy altogether. There is far more definition and I can hear better separation in instrumentation, specifically drums. One of the first discs that I tried out was the Mobile Fidelity Roy Orbison Greatest Hits CD and immediately was impressed with how snappy the drum kit is on the upbeat tunes, there is refinement in the lower chords and the entire mix feels even more spacious and open.

    I always like to be as detailed as possible when explaining improvements, but I will also add that while I feel my speakers are very revealing in good ways, they also showcase flaws and poor mixes just the same, this adjustment has also showed me where certain recordings have a very sloppy mix with regards to lower levels, less definition in the bass or heavier chords, I particularly noticed this when playing several odd selections, Batman & Robin Soundtrack is just one example. While the recording sounds dated to begin with, this adjustment has further brought to light the sloppy mixes and nearly muffled or distorted areas that should have more refinement. Bass is solid in certain areas, but the distinction between certain pitches leaves a lot to be desired.

    I think this same effect is true by giving the sub-woofer a bit of lift from the floor, I have mind elevated approximately 3/4 of an inch, which is about where the spikes place the T6's now and that seems to be just about enough to help with the sound-to-floor level.

    Has anyone else ever played around with their configuration or had the chance to try different things like this and if so....what were the results?

    Hey PS....im glade you decided to elevate your gear and use ceramic feet at that....(Im impressed)...in this case your speakers. Do you remember our previous conversation last week?

    Peruvian Skies wrote
    While I can certainly appreciate the creativity behind ceramic feet and certainly trying to avoid the heat issue from the amp, I think that is the main reason for using the feet and I doubt it really does much for the sound.
    And my reply.

    Originally Posted by frenchmon:
    The feet I made from ceramic. Each layer is glued to the next layer so its very solid. I am thinking of putting a ceramic platform on top of the feet. I also may make more feet but only half the height of whats under my turntable. These shorter feet would go under amp and preamp.

    As far as the heat factor...there is plenty of space to the sides and the front and back for the heat to escape. After long periods of listening I touch to see if its hot and it never is. So the heat is really not a factor.

    The elevation really helps improve the sound.
    frenchmon wrote:
    Well, have you ever tried isolation on gear? Don't sound like it. You need to read up on it. I put isolation on my SACDP and my CDP and the sound improve a lot. I was stunned. I even started a thread about it on another forum about the improved sound so others tried it and where just as surprised at how much better the music was. Same with the TT. The sound improved greatly. Read up on it Peruvian..

    Sounds like you are becoming a believer.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    W10 i5 Quad core processor 8GB RAM/Jriver 20/ Fidelizer Optimizer/ iFI Micro DSD DAC-iUSB 3.0/Vincent SA - T1/Vincent SP-331 MK /MMF-7.1/2M BLACK/MS Phenomena ll+/Canton Vento 830.2

  14. #14
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    St. Charles Mo
    Posts
    3,271
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    I get the bass improvement portion, but have a hard time understanding the additional separation of mids/highs....perhaps the elevation moved the tweeter closer to ear level and helps you hear a more defined high/mids...or was that what you were saying all alone?
    Tarheel...(every time I see your name it makes me home sick for Raleigh/Durham/Chappel Hill/Cary).... Yes there is a great difference in sound when elevation is applied to gear. This is not just related to speakers and subs but to all gear. I dont think its the tweeter being closer to your ear level because it works with CDP and SACDP as well.

    Now some hear a great improvement and some hear a small improvement but the improvement is there.

    Last year I decided to elevate a Marantz SACDP and I was floored at the added detail, separation, bottom end punch and so so on. I even started a thread in what I found on another forum http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...light=rantzmar and it lit a very good debate as to why it works. I mean they came up with all kinds of reasons as to why...some of them scientific reasons as to why isolation works. But know this....it works. Like I said, some hear a lot of improvement and some hear just a little, but most agree that there is an improvement. Read the thread...it at least should hold your attention.

    Personally with speakers and subs...I believe the isolation stops a lot of reverse vibrations that speakers them selves may create.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    W10 i5 Quad core processor 8GB RAM/Jriver 20/ Fidelizer Optimizer/ iFI Micro DSD DAC-iUSB 3.0/Vincent SA - T1/Vincent SP-331 MK /MMF-7.1/2M BLACK/MS Phenomena ll+/Canton Vento 830.2

  15. #15
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    659
    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon
    Tarheel...(every time I see your name it makes me home sick for Raleigh/Durham/Chappel Hill/Cary)....
    I know what you mean..i'm a native but was in the miltary and lived in KC a few years...could not wait to get back here where the beaches and mountains are close.

    anyway, i read some of the thread. Good stuff.

    Does anyone know if this works with Blu Ray players? I just purchased one so i couldn't tell if there was a difference either way.

  16. #16
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    St. Charles Mo
    Posts
    3,271
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    I know what you mean..i'm a native but was in the miltary and lived in KC a few years...could not wait to get back here where the beaches and mountains are close.

    .
    I cried like a little school girl coming out here to the mid west....now you trying to make me cry like a little school girl again.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    W10 i5 Quad core processor 8GB RAM/Jriver 20/ Fidelizer Optimizer/ iFI Micro DSD DAC-iUSB 3.0/Vincent SA - T1/Vincent SP-331 MK /MMF-7.1/2M BLACK/MS Phenomena ll+/Canton Vento 830.2

  17. #17
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    659
    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon
    I cried like a little school girl coming out here to the mid west....now you trying to make me cry like a little school girl again.

    i guess that was pouring salt on a wound...sorry 'bout that

  18. #18
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373
    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon
    Hey PS....im glade you decided to elevate your gear and use ceramic feet at that....(Im impressed)...in this case your speakers. Do you remember our previous conversation last week?

    Peruvian Skies wrote

    And my reply.

    Originally Posted by frenchmon:


    frenchmon wrote:


    Sounds like you are becoming a believer.

    You are comparing two very different things....speakers vs. components.

  19. #19
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    St. Charles Mo
    Posts
    3,271
    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    You are comparing two very different things....speakers vs. components.
    Well you where not a believer in my elevation and ceramic isolation of a TT. But you try ceramic isolation and elevation with speakers after my asking you to read up on it. Thought you did... and you find it works great. Different gear same result. But if our previous conversation had no bearing on your new idea...no biggie.

    You said you doubted the ceramic isolation and elevation would do any thing with the sound. But you find it helped with your speakers....Just thought you took my advice...if not no biggie. Glad you are enjoying your new tweek. Just thought I was instrumental in your findings...but still no biggie. Just nice to see a fellow brother having fun with his gear.

    Oh by the way...after our conversation I did add a platform. Not because of the heat but because of fear of the amps transformers and the cart. If not for the conversation, I may have never thought about the transformer and cart.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    W10 i5 Quad core processor 8GB RAM/Jriver 20/ Fidelizer Optimizer/ iFI Micro DSD DAC-iUSB 3.0/Vincent SA - T1/Vincent SP-331 MK /MMF-7.1/2M BLACK/MS Phenomena ll+/Canton Vento 830.2

  20. #20
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373
    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon
    Well you where not a believer in my elevation and ceramic isolation of a TT. But you try ceramic isolation and elevation with speakers after my asking you to read up on it. Thought you did... and you find it works great. Different gear same result. But if our previous conversation had no bearing on your new idea...no biggie.

    You said you doubted the ceramic isolation and elevation would do any thing with the sound. But you find it helped with your speakers....Just thought you took my advice...if not no biggie. Glad you are enjoying your new tweek. Just thought I was instrumental in your findings...but still no biggie. Just nice to see a fellow brother having fun with his gear.

    Oh by the way...after our conversation I did add a platform. Not because of the heat but because of fear of the amps transformers and the cart. If not for the conversation, I may have never thought about the transformer and cart.
    It's really hard to say, especially with this hobby because other people can't come and listen to our stuff or check out our gear in our own custom setting at will, which means that we are all being taken at our word. If you are saying there is a difference (regardless of how large or small) than fair enough. I wouldn't think that there would be, but with the combination of the things that you did tweak, I am sure there is some change altogether.

    Glad we worked that out. Peace.

  21. #21
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    down there
    Posts
    6,852
    Good thread...great read...does anyone think that these improvements are due simply to control over cabinet resonances? I've never even considered these kinds of tweaks with the Logans but now it's tempting....
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •