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  1. #1
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Interested in One of the Best TVs Money can Buy?

    I have decided to sell my Sony KDSR70XBR2. It is as brand new. I have put a new bulb a few months back and have used the TV very little since then. For those of you 'in the know', you'll be aware that this is one of the best TVs out there. It is in essence the same TV (only better) as the Sony Qualia 006. It is monstrous, so shipping is out of the question - it'll have to be a pick-up. The reason I'm selling is that I have made up my mind to buy the Pioneer Elite 60" Kuro. At almost 7k its expensive, and smaller than the 70"XBR2, but I like it. If nobody is interested I'll sell it through another channel. I think that at $2,500 its a screwball value - a helluva lot less than I paid for it. If your interested let me know.
    Cheers
    'Lets See what the day brings forth'.... Reginald Iolanthe Perrin

  2. #2
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Shag, ol' boy, this clearly sounds like a good deal for one of them folks out on the left coast. I'd hop on it but: a) I live three-quarters of the way across the country, and b)I just filled two gastanks and bought some Ramen Noodles, so I'm broke until November.

    Good luck, though.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Dude, Ramen noodles are good! I'm feeling your pain as far as the old petrol goes. Your broke until November...and then you have to worry about the Holiday season of gift-giving which means broke again!!

    Actually a gret deal, but its unfortunate it has to be local. I have a stupid habit of buying things that are over-sized and hard to ship. As you can imagine my bird loves me a lot to put up with it.
    This evening I'm going out for some pints, margueritas, and tequilla at this brilliant little cowboy bar - a left over from the '50s. I'm meeting up with a friend who's an engineer in the music industry. Pity you couldn't join us there bobsticks mate.
    'Lets See what the day brings forth'.... Reginald Iolanthe Perrin

  4. #4
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Well, thank Crom for government cheese...and I found out recently that if you hang out back of the Sherwin Williams you can get a hold of some of the discarded mistakes. That semi-gloss is pretty tastey, especially the mauve.

    I'm headin' out in a coupla hours myself, but it sounds like you'll enjoy the more scintillating company. Let us know if ya hear any inside scoops.

    Cheers

  5. #5
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    I THINK THAT THAT IS micky D's that you're supposed to be hanging out behind.
    THIS doesnt sound like a TV, it sounds like the box the UN building
    came in.
    Nail it to the floor, take out the guts, and put a nice little powder room in there
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
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  6. #6
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    I cant help but smile at the way you guys are moaning about fuel prices, what is it there...$4 a gallon? that equates to roughly 2 here.
    Ours is 6 a gallon, roughly $12 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Marantz SA15 S1
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  7. #7
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by icehockeyboy
    I cant help but smile at the way you guys are moaning about fuel prices, what is it there...$4 a gallon? that equates to roughly 2 here.
    Ours is 6 a gallon, roughly $12 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    You just can't compare.

    I'm originally from the UK and now live in the USA. Everything is way more spread out here so commuting involves much longer distances. For example here in So. Cal people regularly commute 70 miles total to and from work each day, and this does not include the trips to the supermarket and other general needs. If you don't have a car here you are severely limited (exceptions are living in San Francisco, Manhattan and a few other places. Unlike Europe in general, if you are without a car in this country you are basically up the creek without a paddle. Americans stand to suffer much more at the pumps than do Europeans at current prices. Most Americans simply could not afford to pay $12 at the pump - the country would come to a stand still. Its hard for Europeans to understand until they been here and see for themselves that Americans have to travel much greater distances on average. It is after all a very large country.
    'Lets See what the day brings forth'.... Reginald Iolanthe Perrin

  8. #8
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by icehockeyboy
    I cant help but smile at the way you guys are moaning about fuel prices, what is it there...$4 a gallon? that equates to roughly 2 here.
    Ours is 6 a gallon, roughly $12 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Do they actually use the gas tax for roads? Over here we've been promised high speed rail for more than 20 years using a "temporary" gas tax to finance it. So far we get committee meetings and promises but our "fast" trains on the west coast can't keep up with our with freeway traffic.

    'Course they've decided to fix that, by letting all our roads revert to game trails, the cars will slow down and the trains will be high speed again. There's also a new employment opportunity, bridges are collapsing so often that soon all the news channels will need a permanent staff just to cover fallen bridges.

    Cal trans has been working on a replacement bridge for the one across the San Fransico Bay that was damaged (collapsed) during the Loma Prieta quake, I think they've been at it nineteen years with four to go. It is understandable why it's taking so long though. It's a very exotic design consisting of flat concrete roadway placed on top of cylindrical concrete columns. I'm sure people will flock from all over the planet just to take pictures.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
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  9. #9
    nightflier
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    Well yeah, but....

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    You just can't compare.

    I'm originally from the UK and now live in the USA. Everything is way more spread out here so commuting involves much longer distances. For example here in So. Cal people regularly commute 70 miles total to and from work each day, and this does not include the trips to the supermarket and other general needs. If you don't have a car here you are severely limited (exceptions are living in San Francisco, Manhattan and a few other places. Unlike Europe in general, if you are without a car in this country you are basically up the creek without a paddle. Americans stand to suffer much more at the pumps than do Europeans at current prices. Most Americans simply could not afford to pay $12 at the pump - the country would come to a stand still. Its hard for Europeans to understand until they been here and see for themselves that Americans have to travel much greater distances on average. It is after all a very large country.
    Why build everything so far apart then? Hasn't our society been spoiled by artificially cheap gas and now that the party's over the bill is due? Why no taller apartment buildings closer to where people work? And it's not because of earthquakes, because they have them downtown in the big California Cities. We also badly need better public transportation - if they can build it in SanFran, then why not here in SoCal? Actually it existed once and then it was taken out. Why? because gas was artificially cheap and market forces were not allowed to work their magic.

    It's ironic that this state of affairs screams government interference, but it's the political right that's benefited the most from it. No, I think it's perfectly fair to compare. Europeans allowed the price of gas to climb, we, the world's supposed authority on laisser-faire economics, didn't. It's just that simple. Don't believe me, then why does it still cost more to buy a Prius than a Suburban?

    Oh and that huge TV? Again, possible because of the artificially low price of gas.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Public transport only works when he availability passes a certain undefined threshold. We keep voting for a short line railway (The SMART train) in N. California, detractors point out with glee that ridership will be below self sustaining levels. Yes, until there's a vast network, even then I have no problem with subsidies, all other transport is heavily subsidized (Air ports, air traffic control, bridges and roads, etc).
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Why build everything so far apart then? Hasn't our society been spoiled by artificially cheap gas and now that the party's over the bill is due? Why no taller apartment buildings closer to where people work? And it's not because of earthquakes, because they have them downtown in the big California Cities. We also badly need better public transportation - if they can build it in SanFran, then why not here in SoCal? Actually it existed once and then it was taken out. Why? because gas was artificially cheap and market forces were not allowed to work their magic.

    It's ironic that this state of affairs screams government interference, but it's the political right that's benefited the most from it. No, I think it's perfectly fair to compare. Europeans allowed the price of gas to climb, we, the world's supposed authority on laisser-faire economics, didn't. It's just that simple. Don't believe me, then why does it still cost more to buy a Prius than a Suburban?

    Oh and that huge TV? Again, possible because of the artificially low price of gas.
    I don't quite see your point, and I do find your 'huge TV' remark to make no sense, after all such huge TVs are readily available all over Europe also. Again, if American gas prices were to rise to the level of those in Europe, many Americans with less than six-figure incomes would be largely immobilized. Nightflier, I would guess that your income is over six figures (given your system), or perhaps you do not commute more than 40 miles per day as a great m any Southern Californians do? Its easy to think in such a way as you do when the prices don't afffect you directly. And its easy to lose sight of the plight of the family with lower income that lives in an apartment, and where perhaps the mother must stay home with the children. Such a family would find the Prius a laughable proposition because of its absurd price. The Prius is, despite its 'ordinary-ness' a green poser's car. If it sold for $20k, then it would be a valid proposition. No, I don't think most people in this country are capable of dealing with the type of gas prices paid in Europe (the 'upper-class' Newport Beach set excepted). Which all goes to show how utterly absurd much of the high-end audio business is, where (as it exists today) there there is little or no correlation between price and value. The value of the product - is its high price.
    Last edited by O'Shag; 08-12-2008 at 10:57 AM.
    'Lets See what the day brings forth'.... Reginald Iolanthe Perrin

  12. #12
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    I'm just going to stick with my HK cd changer that i got off ebay for $75. Thanks and see you all again in 2 years.

  13. #13
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Blast from the past...dayummm

  14. #14
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    my post was meant to be posted in the thread about the source first nuts not a triumphant return for my by any stretch of the imagination!

  15. #15
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjornb17
    my post was meant to be posted in the thread about the source first nuts not a triumphant return for my by any stretch of the imagination!
    Ah well, it happens. I'm thinking about hiring a stenographer to follow me around and transcribe my thoughts due to my complete inability to type.

    Don't I remember you as being from Sweden? I hope this country is treating you well.

  16. #16
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    German by blood but American by nationality Great grand parents on one side of the family immigrated from Germany a long time ago while the other half of the family is straight from Germany

  17. #17
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Kewl.

  18. #18
    nightflier
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    Big TV = lots of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    I don't quite see your point, and I do find your 'huge TV' remark to make no sense, after all such huge TVs are readily available all over Europe also.
    Yes, but they carry a huge premium because of their environmental impact. You can find Hummers in Europe too, but you'll have to shell out $150K for one. And don't even think about starting your own Hummer import business - you won't get a license to sell anymore. Back to TVs, the Europeans were also much quicker to adopt flat screens, digital broadcasts, lead-free solder and other green alternatives that all in some way combine to reduce the carbon footprint of the typical European household compared to the typical American household. I think you would be hard pressed to find a large CRT or projection TV in Western Europe these days, but I can go into Best Buy right now and find several models.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Again, if American gas prices were to rise to the level of those in Europe, many Americans with less than six-figure incomes would be largely immobilized.
    For a short while maybe, but Americans can be innovators and they have have been able to build necessary infrastructure when needed in the past. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think that we can be like that again. It shouldn't be too hard for the most powerful country in the world to add a few buses, rail-lines, high-rises, electric cars, solar panels, and high-speed internet connections for stay-at-home workers. What we Americans need to let go of is the notion that everything that is produced must be for profit. Many infrastructure projects just simply cannot operate that way. Is it really possible to have hospitals, schools, the military, fire-stations, and all public services to operate on profit? Theoretically, I'm sure there are many people that would love nothing more, but the reality is that this is impossible - our population is just too large to support it and it would bring about tremendous abuse of the rest of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Nightflier, I would guess that your income is over six figures (given your system), or perhaps you do not commute more than 40 miles per day as a great m any Southern Californians do? Its easy to think in such a way as you do when the prices don't afffect you directly.
    Oh, if only I did make that kind of salary. Most of my gear is by trade or borrowed. And I do commute to work, have daycare, mortgage, and medical bills like everyone else. Prices affect me greatly, you can trust me on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    And its easy to lose sight of the plight of the family with lower income that lives in an apartment, and where perhaps the mother must stay home with the children.
    Been there and worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Such a family would find the Prius a laughable proposition because of its absurd price. The Prius is, despite its 'ordinary-ness' a green poser's car. If it sold for $20k, then it would be a valid proposition.
    I'm not disagreeing with you on that. Being 'green' is being marketed in ways that are deplorable. Just try and purchase solar panels, and you'll see a markup of up to 300% on parts because the industry is not regulated. It should not be that way, but much of that nonsense trickles down from corrupt leadership. But as I said before, this country has been able to change before, so I have to believe it can do it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    No, I don't think most people in this country are capable of dealing with the type of gas prices paid in Europe.
    Well, pretty soon they may have to, whether they like it or not. Maybe it's time for some change. Maybe the $5000 premiums should be on Escalades instead of Priuses, maybe some gawd-awful oil-spill will knock some sense in those who want to drill for oil off of California's coasts, maybe some politicians should go to jail? I don't know what it will take. Most people remember 1973 and waiting in line at the pump - back then there was no talk of oil shortages because everybody knew that the spigot had simply been turned off and that it just needed to be turned back on. But what we are faced with now, or in the next 20 years, is a permanent end to oil. People will need to change and I agree with you that it won't be pleasant. But maybe if gas does reach normal market levels without artificial government interference (as they have in Europe), then maybe then people will take notice and actually do something or force their elected public servants to do what they were elected to do in the first place instead of fondling boys in bathrooms, saber-rattling with Russia, bailing out rich corporations, torturing people, and getting paid handsomely for doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Which all goes to show how utterly absurd much of the high-end audio business is, where (as it exists today) there there is little or no correlation between price and value. The value of the product - is its high price.
    Actually, the used market is a much better barometer of the true value of audio equipment. Just look how worthless used Bose speakers and Sony receivers are. What I buy I buy used and the rest I trade or borrow. One does not have to pay retail for everything - there are lots of alternatives. This industry may be absurd on the retail level, but the high price of oil and the dismal economy is shining a big light on it right now, and that's probably a good thing.

    So getting back to the original point, the suggestion that that huge TV is the best money can buy is rather subjective. It may be, compared to your original purchase price, but it may also be completely worthless to many consumers. And I'm not suggesting I'm any better: I have a 42" Panasonic CRT that I'm trying to unload as well. I've offered it practically for free to anyone who can come and lift it out of my upstairs TV room, even throwing in the external HDTV tuner, and no takers so far.

  19. #19
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Good points NightFlier, and your optimism does you credit. And I would normally agree with you that America and Americans have been tremendous innovators. Sadly, America is not what it was. There is little or no manufacturing done in this country anymore (which is laying waste to the centres of such industry - Ohio or Michigan for example), and those companies that do, only do so as a concession for such ready access to the US market ie - they are not American companies. You want to buy 'name brand' clothing? Even the expensive name brands have begun manufacturing in China, where they pay $5 for something and sell it for $300. No, I am not so optimistic for the future. Its time to pay the piper for some drastic mistakes over the past 15 years, and its going to hurt a lot of people I'm afraid.
    'Lets See what the day brings forth'.... Reginald Iolanthe Perrin

  20. #20
    nightflier
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    Well call me an optimist

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Good points NightFlier, and your optimism does you credit. And I would normally agree with you that America and Americans have been tremendous innovators. Sadly, America is not what it was. There is little or no manufacturing done in this country anymore (which is laying waste to the centres of such industry - Ohio or Michigan for example), and those companies that do, only do so as a concession for such ready access to the US market ie - they are not American companies. You want to buy 'name brand' clothing? Even the expensive name brands have begun manufacturing in China, where they pay $5 for something and sell it for $300. No, I am not so optimistic for the future. Its time to pay the piper for some drastic mistakes over the past 15 years, and its going to hurt a lot of people I'm afraid.
    Actually, as I'm thinking about this more and more, I'm really looking for ways to support locally made goods. I do this with groceries and durable goods already whenever I can, but now I also want to do the same for the American audio industry. I certainly can't afford that much, but when people ask me about brands and service, I'm going to make a concerted effort to include American manufacturers. There are a lot of them still around and I think if we all make the same effort (I'm talking about us here), we might just make a small dent and affect things a bit.

  21. #21
    nightflier
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    Drats. Can't find an American TT company. Anyone have any suggestions?

  22. #22
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    If only more people would think this way - buy American ( I mean the continental US; not Honduras or somewhere like that) - instead of buying Chinese made goods or goods from other countries without thinking. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of the Chinese having a fair share of the market using fair trading practices. But there is no balance at present (everything is going to China and or India etc. these days) and this is all driven by people looking to make a quick buck who don't give a darn about the long-term implications for this country.

    an American TT - thats a tough one. There are a few but thy are expensive. A few really good American TTs are Basis signature 2500, Sound Engineering SE-1 (beautiful), VPI are great tables also, Alan Perkins of Immedia (may be spelt wrong) makes a good but absurdlu expensive table also. I think the VPI is a great choice as the Scout has a good sound, is reliable, is 100% American, and relative to other T companies is just about as good value for money as your going to get in this super crazy bonkers 'belong-in-the-asylum' HiFi industry that is largely up its own arse in terms of 'value'. as you can probably surmise, I don't really take the HiFi industry seriously anymore. To me its more about jewellery than performance.
    'Lets See what the day brings forth'.... Reginald Iolanthe Perrin

  23. #23
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    There's the rub

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    If only more people would think this way - buy American ( I mean the continental US; not Honduras or somewhere like that) - instead of buying Chinese made goods or goods from other countries without thinking. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of the Chinese having a fair share of the market using fair trading practices. But there is no balance at present (everything is going to China and or India etc. these days) and this is all driven by people looking to make a quick buck who don't give a darn about the long-term implications for this country.

    .....
    American manufacturing today must target the niche markets, especially the high-end markets, were customers are willing & able to pay much more for exclusive products. The mass markets are abandoned to off-shore providers even if N.A. labels are still afixed. This trend has far from run its course. Eventually it will impoverish not only the NA working class but inevidably the middle class too -- despite the pleasant myth of American being the land of opportunity.

    The living standard of working class, and thus middle class, Americans has been more or less sustained so far by a few of things:
    • An economy overheated by deficit war spending (-- ironically financed by foreign borrowning from the likes of China).
    • A gross expansion of personal debt by working and middle class citizens.
    • Cheap oil and a general disregard for most things environmental.
    • Declining working lower middle class wages has be partly offset by the increasing wealth of the upper middle and very wealthy classes.
    These sustaining factors are weakening. For example, the sub-prime mortgage collapse portends the end of limitless personal debt expansion. Increasing oil prices are another huge factor, and bear in mind the commodity and food prices in general are rising which will not only affect NA but the whole world.

    Globalization has many effects. One partially positive effect is that the wages of workers around the world will tend to coverge; however it is naive to think that this will be a matter of foreign wages rising to NA standards without the latter declining. In the case of the US and western Europe there is the case of immigration, legal or otherwise, from foreign countries. It is a moot point whether this is positive or negative (over a few decades) to the recepient countries but is almost certainly detrimental to their existing lower economic classes.

    Globalization means captital will seek locations that are not only lower cost in terms of wages but also in terms of worker health, safety and job protection, and -- very critically IMO -- environmental regulation. We know that the goverments of China and India, (hello folks, the largest countries in the world), have declared they aren't much interest in environmental measures until their per capita pollution levels begin to meet parity with western nations -- before that happens it will be too late for the planet, especially if western nations do little in the meantime to lower their pollution.

    Meanwhile American governments have fiddled while the country burns. Republicans (not exclusively but in particular) have no solutions other than their tried but deficient, "bribe the rich" economic policy. U.S. voters take note: the rich have taken the money and invested it off-shore.

  24. #24
    nightflier
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    American manufacturers cannot afford to only server the high-end market

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    American manufacturing today must target the niche markets, especially the high-end markets, were customers are willing & able to pay much more for exclusive products. The mass markets are abandoned to off-shore providers even if N.A. labels are still afixed.
    I'm not sure I agree. I think American goods can compete at all price levels. This is especially true because higher fuel prices will bring parity to the lower-priced markets first. Let's remember that the high-end niche market only represents a small percentage of the total market. If new American entrepreneurs aren't willing to compete in the larger market segments than it will be much worse for everyone in the long run.

    Look, let's consider the Chinese as an example. Prices from Chinese goods are so low because they horribly abuse their own employees and don't give a hoot about the environment. The problem with this is that this type of abuse throws considerable blowback in their direction. With higher fuel-prices, Americans are buying more locally now than they have in decades and this is not good for the Chinese. Likewise, the blatant disregard for global pollution has or will have considerable effect on the lifestyle of Americans. Illness/epidemics, extreme weather patterns, pestilence, and the deterioration of the food-supply all preoccupy the consumer too much to care. And I haven't even mentioned the loss of jobs to overseas, the longer commutes, the higher cost of basic necessities like food, and the inability to pay the bills. These all make Joe Sixpack less likely to buy that new receiver, BR player, or TT.

    Now for Joe Sixpack, that American manufactured VPI Scout TT is going to remain in the store window - nice but way too expensive. It might appeal to Joe Cadillac, but he too is feeling the crunch because Joe Sixpack is no longer able to buy his widgets. So Joe Cadillac does what Joe Sixpack does and buys something less expensive, something made in China. Not good for VPI, not good for the economy, and not good for the consumers who are forced to settle on a product that is either lower quality, or abusively produced. If on the other hand, there had been a reasonably priced, locally produced alternative, both Joes might have purchased that instead. But there isn't - I can't think of any reasonably priced TT company that still manufactures in the US. And that's a shame.

    The sad reality is that buying American (ironically, just like buying Green, or being Vegan) is much more expensive and ultimately just a rare luxury. While some of us may still be willing to make that choice with our A/V gear, most consumers won't pay the premium. If there is one thing that our current government is most negligent about it is the evisceration of the middle class and mid-priced industry. This government, and it is my opinion that it is by and large the fault of elected Republicans rather than Democrats, has done more to destroy the middle class than any government before it. Ironically, the Republican party historically always stood for the defense of the small business owner, but that is certainly not the Republican party of today. Yes, Democrats are also to blame, but a lot less so.

    If you want to point the finger at someone for the demise of American A/V, there you go. This is my opinion of course, and I'm sure some people will disagree (Rich are you there?), but all debating aside, where is that $500 American-made TT? That's right, it no longer exists. What will it take for enough people to care? When Toyota buys Ford? When Philips buys GE? When Sony buys Microsoft? If they pay in dollars, they'll pay garage-sale prices for them.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Its not a question of American made, but western civilization
    made.
    A lot of companies are designing the gear, and shipping the plans to southeast asia.
    This stuff looks like the real thing, but there is an underlying cheapness underneath, like plastic faceplates made to look like aluminum.
    Those of us who remember from back then, when stuff was really well made, are in mourning for something that has become lost.
    When this hobby started you practically had to build your own gear,
    those days might be coming back
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

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