How would you spend your money?

[bturk667]

In my previous post about what would you rather have, most people opted for the speakers, very typical. It seemed that they did so based on differences. Speakers bring a bigger difference to a system so... as if large ones are always better ones. Also, money seemed to be a underlying theme as well. I always thought one could find excellent speakers that are reasonably priced. But I digress, please excuse me.

Since it seems that speakers are most important to the majority of you, what percentage of a few make believe budgets would you apply towards them? I am only talking about audio systems, I do not have a H.T., and this brings in a whole different set of possibilities. So lets keep it to audio only, thanks. Another thing to keep in mind, at least for me, is the number of source components in your make believe systems. I have to have an analog one as well as a digital one; therefore I will spend more on source components then those who only need or want one. So if you would, please list how many source components you need. Hell, some of you might find a tape deck vital . Also, interconnects and speaker cables should be included as part of your system, these are necessary parts. How much validity you give to them and much you spend is up to you. Power line conditioners, power chords, and isolation devices are not a necessity. You can have an operating system without them. But include them if you must.

So here we go! What percentage do you give to speakers?

1. System budget = $5,000
2. System budget = $10,000
3. System budget = $20,000

The reason for a somewhat high starting budget was for flexibilty. Plus, this is only make believe!

My answers:
System 1 = 10% - 30% - two source components.
System 2 = 30% - 40% - two source components
System 3 = 30% - 50% - two source components

I have to say, I would tend to lean towards the lower percentages than the higher, but hell, that's just me.

So what about you?

[jbangelfish]

I would nearly always spend more on everthing in front of the speakers than I would on the speakers themselves. This is what I did in my own system with very satisfactory results.
For a 5k system, I'm looking at all used equipment, again exactly what I did except for phono cartridges and they were NOS. At alittle over 5k invested, I have $735 in my AR9 speakers (old teledynes) or less than 20% of the total.
For a 10k system, I'd probably do very nearly the same. I could spend alittle more on speakers, maybe buy a new turntable for 2k or so and look into finer used amp or amps, preamp, phono stage.
20k system, maybe all new and I'd have to go out and audition all of the new stuff that people rave about. I'm guessing that the percentage I'd spend on speakers would get closer to 40 or 50% of the total if I did it this way as opposed to the under 20% that I actually did.
I'm glad I did my system the way that I did as I only have around 5k in a system that would easily be over 20k if all was new equipment. You should be able to do pretty well for that much money.
Bill

[Woochifer]

I think the biggest variable would lie with the analog sources. If my whole system consists of digital sources and solid state amplification, then I would devote about half of the system budget to the speakers, and probably closer to 75% of the budget if we're talking about multichannel.

My current system pretty much reflects these priorities. I spent $600 on a HT receiver, $350 on the DVD player, and $900 for the main speakers. The 5.1 configuration brings the total investment on the speakers and subwoofer to $2,300.

If I choose to include analog sources, then a much bigger chunk of the budget would go towards those components, because unlike with digital sources, there are very clearcut improvements in audio quality as you move up in price class with turntables, cartridges, tape decks, equalizers, etc. I would probably budget out at least $700 for a turntable, at least $300 for a cartridge, and depending on the quality of the phono stage, at least $200 for a phono preamp. A decent three-head tape deck would run at least $300.

It's the same deal as with speakers. It's not just differences in sound quality when you switch to different speakers. If the difference is not an improvement, then a speaker upgrade is not needed. However, in most cases moving up to a different price class with speakers, you are getting bona fide improvements in sound quality -- audible and measurable improvements that far exceed what you would get with a comparable investment in amplification or digital front end components.

[Worf101]

Your sources do make a difference. Designing a system for analogs sources (ie turntable, tape decks etc..) would require a far different tack than purely digital. Using your budgets, if the systems didn't have to do "double duty" and I had dedicated rooms for HT and music... I'd think I'd break it down in the following manner.

1. HT - 60% of my funds would be spent on getting the best upstream signal I could get without totally sacrifcing "warmth". The rest would be spent on decent matching fronts and center and average rears. The choice of sub would get the MOST attention and money out of the remaining 40% of funds.

2. Music only - 60% of funds would be allocated to speakers 30 percent to turntable and the last ten percent to some decent monoblocks. I'd probably have multiple choices of speakers perhaps for different musicl genres... if wishes wuz fishes.

Da Worfster

[bturk667]

How much would you spend on speakers (percentage wise) in an AUDIO ONLY system. Also, please list number of source components.
There were three budgets:
1. $5,000
2. $10,000
3. $20,000

[jbangelfish]

The question has nothing to do with HT.
I agree with Bryan that it would be very interesting to see the outcome of two completely different approaches to a 5k or any other system for that matter. Again, Audio systems.
It's up to the individual how much you spend on wire, whether all digital or incorporating analog. Build to your taste and see what people come up with.
I know that Bturk is more comparing amp vs speakers but let's see what people come up with. I think it's a good post and a good experiment.
Bill

[bturk667]

To me it's really more about the importance of electronics (i.e. everything except speakers) and their benefits to the sound of an entire system than just speakers and their benefits.

[Bryan]

To me, the room size and listening tastes would dictate speaker selection, be it new or used regardless of budget. For example, B&W Nautilus 805s are fantastic but are probably overkill in a room that is 8' x 12'. Conversely, the Nautilus 801s are excellent but will probably perform poorly in a very large room.

It would be interesting to see two music only systems worth $5K each. The first one has alot of the money tied up in source components, wires, and amps. Speakers get $800 or less. The second has $4K tied up in speakers and under $1K in source equipment, etc. Both rooms would be identical.

In a system that does primarily HT, the percentage is more towards speakers and sub, often the price of the sub equaling or exceeding the price of the speakers.

[bturk667]

.....

[Norm Strong]

Since I can't imagine spending $5000 on an audio system, what could I possibly answer? Now if one of the categories was $1000, I'd give it a run.

[RGA]

I don't think you can apply a percentage system here. Why? because people often assume that if they spent 2k on a cd player that it actually sounds better than a $180.00 one. WHile it may be the case I can tell you that not only is it not always the case it so happens the reverse can be true.

I don't want to get into a DBT raging debate but suffice it to say that the laws of diminishing returns is highest with cd players if we're going with the three part chain of cd player, amp, speakers. I have done a quick SBT of my Sony mega changer and Cambridge Audio CD 6 that was raved about by UHF who wash their hands of the Changer(though they habe never heard one). And the Cambridge with my HD 600 headphones do in fact have more bass weight, but on a great many tracks sounded too close to 1) care and 2) consistantly tell apart. Though certian segments was pretty obvious...through the stereo with room interaction? have not tried.

A good solid $850.00CDN single disc cd player like this didn't just stomp the 300 disc loader for $280.00CDN. And I took the Cambridge EASILY over the likes of the Rega Planet which costs more and the Sony would have that thing for breakfast in terms of accuracy and noise.

Amplifier is dependant on the speaker.

I ran my higher end Cambridge with Arcam Delta 290 (2k worth of front end) with B&W DM 302. I can tell you right now I would rather have the Sony changer with the amp and my Audio Note's.

Speakers come first along with the proper set-up(not so much room acoustics, because many speaker designers account for average rooms, and the source disc.

Turntables are another matter.

I would run something like a 70% speakers for a budget system and maybe 90% for very high end systems on speakers. I would not spend more than 2kCdn on a cd player in any system...just not worth it. If you have to fix the "Bight tizz" don't buy speakers with metal tweeters, and fancy cables that make the sound worse.

Cables ZERO% they give them to you free people...use them. If you need to fix bright...time for new speakers.

[bturk667]

Now you don't have to stick to it, but it is a good place to start. If I'm spending, say $10,000 on a system, I alreadt have a few speakers I would look to buy. They would be from @ $3,000 to @ @$4,000. Now if I could get some good used or dealer demos for my electronics I would buy the Legacy Focus 20/20 for $6,200. If not, the remaining moneys, about six to seven thousand dollars, would be spent on the rest of the system. Seems easy to me!

[jbangelfish]

You asked earlier about suggestions for maybe a better deal on an amp than what you bought. I don't really have any. You were able to afford what you wanted and you bought it, nothing wrong with that. From your list of choices, you may very well have the best one of the lot and as you said, you could have lived with any of them. Getting the dealer demo made it a pretty good deal.
I'm more of a used bargain hunter I guess. There are a lot of good used components going for very cheap. My amps and preamp would have been nearly 6k if I bought new during the early 90's but at near 10 years old with plenty of life left (I hope), I have about $1800 in the three pieces. Now that they are 10 years old, I would expect them to hold their value fairly well for another 10 years or so if I should decide to sell anything for another upgrade. Just my way of looking at things.
Bill

[thepogue]

5K system - 50% speakers - one source (CD, Pre, Amp)

10K system - 60% speakers (including sub for bass management) - one source (CD, Pre, Mono Blocks)

20K system - 70% speakers (no sub, see pic) - one source (CD, Pre, Mono Blocks)

all used if possiable...but i'd be dying waiting around for the "right" equipment to come up on the used market...oh....the pain...the PAIN!

[bturk667]

Since I can't imagine spending $5000 on an audio system, what could I possibly answer? Now if one of the categories was $1000, I'd give it a run.

I can't imagine spending only a thousand dollars on an entire system.

[markw]

I can't imagine spending only a thousand dollars on an entire system.

With money as no object, it's quite easy to come up with something to be proud of. But, methinks that there are more around here who feel a serious pull in the wallet trying to feed this hobby and perhaps a few growing mouths, or even a college tuition.

How about some sugestions for a $1000 2 channel system? We'll limit it to CD only but if you think you can still pull it off, vinyl will not be disallowed.

I'd start by looking for a nice pair of mains in the 300- 500 range. Perhaps from our friends from the North.

[jbangelfish]

I know mine wasn't nor was anyone elses' that I can think of. To spend that much takes some commitment to music appreciation. The fact is that most of the world listens to music on systems that cost $1,000 or less. The reasons vary from can't afford more to being satisfied with such a system. I guess another thread could be started to find out what can be done for $1,000 but this one was for 5k and up. If you would not or could not spend that much on a system, dream one up and make believe that you would. If this doesn't interest you, start a thread for $1,000 systems.
My first stereo system came from Radio Shack in about 1972, consisted of Nova 8 speakers (their largest or second largest) which were 3 way, their biggest receiver (I think) at around 35 watts per channel and a BSR automatic turntable. I think the whole system was around $500. Within 6 months, I was dissatisfied with the system and found that when I used a bigger receiver, it sounded better. The Realistic had no oomph with these speakers at all. I bought a Pilot receiver that had about 70wpc and was pretty happy with this system for a couple of years while I was in the Army. This was the best sound system in my barracks so my room or area was a favorite party spot and usually annoyed the older guys.
2 months or so after getting out of the army in 1975, I established my credit by getting a loan for my second system. I bought a Crown IC150 preamp and DC300A power amp for around $1400, a Pioneer PL12 belt drive manual turntable for about $80, Shure V15III cartridge just under $100 and a pair of series II, Bose 901's for about $550. This was a fair amount of money to spend back then for a very basic stereo and the banker thought I was nuts. I enjoyed this system for quite a number of years and my son still uses the old amp and preamp every day. I sold my original 901's a long time ago but we still have several pair around and my son listens to a pair of series I's every day, they are about 36 years old and no worse for the wear. He added a pair of 12 inch woofers and eliminated the need for EQ.
I almost hate to mention the 901's because so many people think that they are utter crap. If you've never heard the original series I or II, or you've never heard them in perfect corners which they were designed for or if you've never heard them with somewhere around 200 wpc, please keep your yap shut because you could not give them a fair evaluation. This thread was for where our priorities lie within a system and it should be easy to decide where mine is. And no, it's not distortion or poor sound quality that I'm after.
The biggest emphasis for me is always what it takes to make the speakers perform to their best and I see no way to do this without having exceptional and fairly expensive equipment in front of them. There might be speakers that require a lot less power to sound good but I've never heard a system that sounded very good to me if it did not have some quality electronics to get the job done. This is a completely honest opinion on my part, however misguided it may seem to some.
I'd like to hear RGA's explanation of what he buys to round out his 20k system after spending 18k on the speakers. Doesn't leave much for analog, CD player, amp or preamp.
Bill

[markw]

Mine falls somewhat above that level as well but, you're right. A lot of people start somewhere.

I started that other thread. I don't want the newbies and lurkers think we're all elitests here.

FWIW, my first "real" stereo was a Lafayette LA-224a amp, with their Criterion 50 (8", 2 way ported) speakers and a Garrard AT-60 (w/ $.01 Pickering cartridge).

... got it brandy new in boxes with snow shoveling and lawn mowing money. Not bad for a Jr Hi school kid in the early 60's.

It's grown some since then. My current stuff is listed at AA. This site doesn't have sufficient space to do it. ..and that does not cover what's in the cellar.

[bturk667]

My first system cost me @ $2,300. The one I have know - same speakers but much better electronics - cost me @ $5,000. Sorry I can't put together a system that I would want to own for $1,000. The cheapest i guess I could live with would be between $1500 and $2000. And that would have limitations, little bass and no Analog, OUCH!!!

[DMK]

[QUOTE=bturk667]In my previous post about what would you rather have, most people opted for the speakers, very typical. It seemed that they did so based on differences.

I did so based on experience rather than differences. You're correct in that differences aren't always good. But I've had more success in the past putting systems together when I built them around the speakers instead of around something else.

Since this post is a little different than your last one by including analog, my answers are slightly different:

$5K system - I'd put 50% on the speakers:
$2500 - speakers
$1500 - analog front end
$1000 - amplification and digital front end.

$10K system - This one was the most interesting because I could be specific in my mind as to the components I wanted. The speakers I'd want are $4000 so my percentage would drop to 40% on speakers. I'd jump up the analog front end to $2500 and I'd put $3500 into some tubed amplification and the digital front end.

$20K system - Pretty simple. My speakers are $7500 so that's 37.5%. Analog front end would go up to $5K = 25%. The balance I'd put into amps and CDP's = 37.5%. I could get some pretty choice tube amplification with $7500, although I'd hold out a few bucks for a digital source.

In my make believe systems, I'm still true to my original premise even though the speakers percentage drops. I first find the speakers I want and I then surround it with the ancillary gear I want and that fits my budget. I'm not saying that the speakers become less important as you move up the ladder. It's just that I have yet to hear the speakers that sound better than the $7500 pair, no matter how expensive they may be. If I preferred, say, the Whispers, my percentage would change drastically. Also, if we were only dealing with solid state electronics, I'd have no need to spend $20K on a system unless I increased my turntable budget to around $8K... which I could do easily given the opportunity! But I've found the laws of diminishing returns kicks in heavily with SS electronics and even more so with CD players.

The bottom line is that IME, putting your speakers first will yield the best sounding system for the money, assuming a normal amount of care and expertise in system matching. My current system would have retailed at around $19K if I had bought everything new. The only new piece was the CD recorder at $700 and the phono cartridge at $950. The rest I got at an average of 50% of retail. And until some other component comes along and blows away what I own AND I can afford it, I'll be using this system for a long, long time - no upgrades in sight.

[gonefishin]

What percentage in each?

1. System budget = $5,000
2. System budget = $10,000
3. System budget = $20,000


1 - 40% of DIY money on speakers
2 - 20% of DIY money on speakers
3 - 25% of DIY money on speakers


of course...that's Do it yourself...not design it yourself. I'm certainly not a designer.

I have ta say...I've listened to the CElegacy speakers, and I wanted them to be really good. But they sounded...well, pretty darn bad it was a bit of a disappointment. This was also with some very nice (and powerful) electronics. I would try to audition before buying these on the blind.

take care>>>>>>>>

[DMK]

I have ta say...I've listened to the CElegacy speakers, and I wanted them to be really good. But they sounded...well, pretty darn bad it was a bit of a disappointment. This was also with some very nice (and powerful) electronics. I would try to audition before buying these on the blind.

take care>>>>>>>>

I had the same problem with the Focus. I got 'em for cheeeeep but I just couldn't get them to behave, even with the megabuck solid state gear I used at the time. I waltzed 'em around that room but they always sounded horribly incoherent - I was always painfully aware that their were crossovers with bass comin' from here and treble from there but no coherent whole. Perhaps it was my room but the legacy's get such mixed reviews that I would also caution potential buyers to use them in their home with their setup before committing.

[jbangelfish]

Roscoe is North of Rockford, near WI border and 1 mi from I-90. Might have to plan a road trip and possibly include Bturk as I have interest in comparing his McCormack amp to my Parasound amps. I really haven't heard a home system better than my own and I'm not trying to brag. I don't have any personal friends in my area who have as nice of a system as my own.
I'll admit to looking at systems (yours included) and wondering how they sound as compared to my own. I am obviously very pleased with my own system and could listen to it for a very long time without growing tired of it. I'm an admitted power nut with a heavy empasis on everything in front of the speakers. With my speakers now biamped, I am pushing them with 220wpc X 4 at 8 ohm or 385wpc X 4 at 4 ohm and it is clear to me that this is better than having only half of the power. It depends on who you ask as to whether the AR9 converts to 8 ohm or stays at 4 ohm during biamp mode. My speakers are old and only cost me alittle over $700, new, they were about 2k in the late 70's. I think it would be very hard to beat them without spending several k. I see speakers with much less range going for alot more money than I spent.
There are many components that I would be interested in listening to and speakers themselves will make the biggest difference in most systems so it's most likely different speakers that a person has to compare. There are many that I have never heard and it would be interesting for me to get out and hear something different.
Bill

[gonefishin]

I'll admit to looking at systems (yours included) and wondering how they sound as compared to my own. I am obviously very pleased with my own system and could listen to it for a very long time without growing tired of it. Bill

Heck, there ain't no need to always compare...it can just be neat to see/hear others systems. Sometimes they may build a system that's similar to yours...and sometimes they'll have a very different system. But it's all goooood


Maybe once it warms up a bit?


just let me know...you could usually find me at AK.


take care>>>>>

[bturk667]

I live in Tinley Park. That is @ 25 miles or so south of the loop! Think of either I-80 and Harlem Ave (IL.43), or @ 294 and 159th st. We should really try to get together sometime in the future. I have amp, will travel!