How to translate qualitative terms to quantitative in the sport of home audio

[JoeE SP9]

tube fan, what's your point? We all agree with you that actually listening to gear is the only way to finalize a buying decision.

Specs, well they are important but should not be the deciding factor. As a tube user I'm well aware of that. Perhaps you should be asking how many of us use tubed gear. We (tube users) rely less on specs than most other audiophiles. "pixie" seems to be the only poster with a bias against "ancient and obsolete" technology

[Ajani]

thousands of factors are at work in reproducing sound, and the current set of measurements simply fail to measure factors that real humans consider most important in sound quality.

1) That's why I respect the work at Revel (Harman International), which attempts to tie the factors most important to sound quality to measurements... It's nowhere near perfect but it is a major step in the right direction IMO.

2) You're wording could use a lot of work: I'd say "factors that many humans consider important"... Seriously, WTH is a "real human"? Flat frequency response may not be important to you, but it is to many persons...

3) I lay a lot of blame at the feet of tube and vinyl manufacturers and fans for not pushing for the development of more comprehensive measurements.... Measurements that would show the actual advantage of a SET amp in reproducing some factor that is critical to sound reproduction... Instead of attempting to prove the tubes and analog have some scientifically verifiable advantage, they just push the mantra of "just listen" which makes us all look like unscientific fools, who are prone to bias and imagination...

[Geoffcin]

Funny, but I didn't see "tubes vs transistor" at the subject. Post another off topic post and it gets deleted. You have been warned.

[pixelthis]

Funny, but I didn't see "tubes vs transistor" at the subject. Post another off topic post and it gets deleted. You have been warned.

Thats the way to go!
SILENCE ALL DISSENT.
Sorry to go against your preconceived notions.
CARRY ON(what is this thread about? TITLE is a tad vague)

[Geoffcin]

Obsolete does not equate to unloved. Some people like the sound and that's it! There's no "brainwahing" involved at all. There's no right or wrong with personal preference.

[poppachubby]

" Yes Ma'am, the new Brand X Model 1 has moved the cup holder to the right, and made it 1.345 times bigger. The effects of this are almost immeasurable, but we are quite certain that it enhances the car's performance by at least 4.6 megahindabats..."

"Gee, I don't know. Are you sure?"

"Ma'am let me tell you something. I used to have a horse and buggy, and then cars were invented. I have owned many, and none of them performed like this baby. The cup holders were simply always dragging down the overall peformance. You would be crazy to drive a car with the old style of cup holder with what we know now."



Honestly, move on Pix, we all get it. Funny thing about Kool-Aid is when you drink your own you can choose the flavour.

I have access to some of the best solid state machines being made today. They are great, but they don't make tube technology obsolete. Not by a long shot. Solid State is not as great as you think, it's prone to it's own issues.

You are laughing at tube lovers, but you are the one beginning to look silly. Do you really believe that simply because things are more convenient, they are better? It may appear that I want an answer, but really i don't.

Just dig and let dig...

[hifitommy]

i think tube fan was just reacting to being admonished. pixi on the other end of the stick is just flailing around flinging excrement all over the place.

long ago, i was critical of spending more than a dollar a watt on amplifier power. then the electro research 70wpc amp came out, the one designed by john iverson. i couldnt imagine that it could sell for $2000 (about 1978). it was being sold at music and sound (mel schilling's california store) and during a demo, i kept my mouth shut and just listened to the infinity QRSs being demoed. and the sales guy who was explaining that an amp should of course start quickly on transients.

then he said it should also STOP quickly when required and in that way you can hear the silence between the notes.

the electro sounded different from most other amps i had heard in that way. i stopped mouthing to my fellow audio buddies that power should be no more than a dollar a watt. i also learned to not be so vociferous about my beliefs as they could be deflated as well as bolstered.

sharing ideas isnt the same as pushing them on others.

[tube fan]

No, I was objecting to the claim that I don't use facts in making my points.
And I am the one urging DBTs!

The claim by Joe E (whose system looks like one I would love; he even has a set of Dynaco Mark III amps, which I used 40 years ago to drive a pair of AR3a speakers) that all agree that listening to music is crucial in buying audio units, is wrong IMO. I know many audiophiles who buy mostly on specs and ratings, without even listening for more than 10 minutes to a unit.

I was objecting to the tired old claim that those of us who prefer tubes and analogue do so, in spite of the "fact" that ss and digital measure better.

[JoeE SP9]

No, I was objecting to the claim that I don't use facts in making my points.
And I am the one urging DBTs!

The claim by Joe E (whose system looks like one I would love; he even has a set of Dynaco Mark III amps, which I used 40 years ago to drive a pair of AR3a speakers) that all agree that listening to music is crucial in buying audio units, is wrong IMO. I know many audiophiles who buy mostly on specs and ratings, without even listening for more than 10 minutes to a unit.

I was objecting to the tired old claim that those of us who prefer tubes and analogue do so, in spite of the "fact" that ss and digital measure better.

I may have been misunderstood. Actually, I believe everyone should listen before buying. Unfortunately many don't listen and buy on specs alone. It's been my experience that systems bought on specs alone generally sound awful to me. Tube driven stats seduced me years ago. Everything else has been acquired to enhance them.

My Mark-III's have little resemblance to the originals. Only the transformers are original. Even the chassis' are new Hammond's. The old ones didn't have enough space for WBT connectors an IEC socket and other things. I'm the original builder and owner of them.

[tube fan]

I may have been misunderstood. Actually, I believe everyone should listen before buying. Unfortunately many don't listen and buy on specs alone. It's been my experience that systems bought on specs alone generally sound awful to me. Tube driven stats seduced me years ago. Everything else has been acquired to enhance them.

My Mark-III's have little resemblance to the originals. Only the transformers are original. Even the chassis' are new Hammond's. The old ones didn't have enough space for WBT connectors an IEC socket and other things. I'm the original builder and owner of them.

Van Alstine modified my Mark-IIIs. Many friends tried to convince me that ss amps were better. When we actually compared the ss amps to the Mark-III, THEY were convinced that their ss amps were, in comparison, crap!

[pixelthis]

Van Alstine modified my Mark-IIIs. Many friends tried to convince me that ss amps were better. When we actually compared the ss amps to the Mark-III, THEY were convinced that their ss amps were, in comparison, crap!

SO THEY don't know how to buy a SS amp.
"Listen before you buy" is just not plausible sometimes, and in the case of an amp selling
for 250$ with a return policy not really nessesary, as in my case.
BUT WHY TALK about amps that much when the major influence on sound is
the speakers. THEY ARE the most important aspect of your system and can sometimes salvage crappy electronics.
And sink good electronics.

[tube fan]

SO THEY don't know how to buy a SS amp.
"Listen before you buy" is just not plausible sometimes, and in the case of an amp selling
for 250$ with a return policy not really nessesary, as in my case.
BUT WHY TALK about amps that much when the major influence on sound is
the speakers. THEY ARE the most important aspect of your system and can sometimes salvage crappy electronics.
And sink good electronics.

NOTHING can salvage crappy electronics!!!

[hifitommy]

my bad, i should pay more attention. but then i am the one who calls
DBTs--BTs4Ds blind tests for dummies. they DO have their place but not in audio equipment selection for an individual. its much too difficult to implement properly.

[hifitommy]

right tubey!

"NOTHING can salvage crappy electronics!!!" its kinda like polishing a turd.

[tube fan]

right tubey!

"NOTHING can salvage crappy electronics!!!" its kinda like polishing a turd.

I wonder how well ss turds would measure!!!

[hifitommy]

not shiny

[hifitommy]

i have never been given a formal demo of a SET/sensitive speaker setup. i am not willing to give up the very low freqs but that can usually handled by a capable sub.

here in LA, i am sure i can get a decent demo, maybe from elliott midwoood, he has the products.

http://www.acousticimage.com/

i have seen/heard some awesome products at his home/showrooms, next time SETs.

[tube fan]

i have never been given a formal demo of a SET/sensitive speaker setup. i am not willing to give up the very low freqs but that can usually handled by a capable sub.

here in LA, i am sure i can get a decent demo, maybe from elliott midwoood, he has the products.

http://www.acousticimage.com/

i have seen/heard some awesome products at his home/showrooms, next time SETs.

I heard the Audio Note speakers produce extremely low, accurate bass, driven by a $21,175 Jinro SET integrated amp.

[hifitommy]

" It "looks" like what they are used to," &
"when tube heads tout their inferior, obsolete gear"

pixie PLEASE stop exhibiting your uninformed biases. it makes you look much worse than you really are. i have tried addressing you in a civil manner when youre being decent and then you revert.

take your meds or something!

[JoeE SP9]

pixel, Plasma TV's look like what "they" are used to because Plasma screen technology is close to CRT technology. As to a Plasma's picture quality, check the link below..
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-pcaYTyp...flatpanel.html

As for tubed audio gear, We Luddites will keep on enjoying our "obsolete and antique" gear that to us sounds better

[hifitommy]

pocket change!