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  1. #26
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Well, good for you, but you are wrong on a few counts.
    CD tech has advanced quite a bit, not just the player but the CD.
    Anyone who listened to early CD will tell you that.
    AND WHILE "20$ crap" from CC will sound half decent hooked up to decent gear,
    its totally dependent on your setup, if you use high end dacs on a prepro or the like then
    your CD player just has to spin the disc and read the ones and zeros.
    This is why, if you have great dacs in your processor, an expensive CD player is a waste
    of money, get a five disc changer, all you need is a transport, get one that saves trips to the player to change the disc

    oh yes, that's why they make $30k+ transports...

    everything matters.

    ever heard a setup with a great transport, and a great dac, and a great pre and poweramp?

    you think to linear, to basic overall IMHO. Listen to things before judging something is a waste of money.

    Keep them spinning,
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  2. #27
    Aging Smartass
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    I too disagree with the concept of a basic, low-cost transport with a good sounding DAC as the way to go. In my experience, better CD players also do a better job of tracking certain discs than lesser transports do.

    My latest purchase of the Marantz SA-8001 SACD player not only has signifiicantly improved the sound of all my CD's (some to far greater extents than others), but plays certain discs that either woudn't play at all, or did so with some difficulty on my older setup. I purchased the Robert Shaw performance of "A Brahms' Requiem" on Telarc and went through several replacement discs before I could get one to play without incessant "ticking" on my Adcom GCD-600/GDA-600 combo. Two discs from amazon.com were unlistenable, and then a replacement direct from Telarc played, but still with annoying tick-tick-tick throughout a number of the tracks. As this was the only disc in my entire collection that did this, I just assumed it was a bad run on the part of Telarc.

    When I connected the 8001, the very first disc I played was the Brahm's Requiem. Not only was I stunned at how much better it sounded than before, but the disc plays absolutely perfectly now, with none of the annoying ticks that so annoyed me before. I suspect that any of the discs I returned probably would have played just as well, though I can't be sure of that.

    And, why does the 8001 sound so good? Is it due to the transport, or the built-in DAC? I suspect it's largely the DAC, but I also believe that the transport plays quite a part too.

    I could have improved the sound of my Adcom GCD-600 by replacing the GDA-600 with a better DAC, but still had the annoying problem I described above. I'm glad I didn't go that route.

  3. #28
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    To be truthful, I probably have CDs that more valuable than most of my vinyl collection. I'm a music listener though, not a music collector. To my mind the biggest distinction is that I don't sell off stuff, period. Directly related to that, since I'm not a collector, I don't really research the value of anything I have sitting around. Probably not the best move should an insurance claim ever need to be filed : )

    If I happen across some information that addresses the value of something I have, it's kinda wild to think that someone would pay that much for a title in a particular format but since I'm not interested in selling the wonder is short lived.

    One thing I've noticed is that in the market of non stop reissues stuff that was once "collectible" isn't so much once the reissues come out. Light Bulb Sun by Porcupine Tree on CD was the latest one I heard about. Not being a Porcupine Tree fan I might have been tempted to sell that one had I known about it in time : )

    jc
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  4. #29
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    I gave my brother a copy of Exodus on MoFi before their last death and resurrection and it's still sealed. He doesn't have a turntable, but he's a "collector" of anything that interests him. I bug him all the time about bringing it over to have a listen. He won't. I wish I had picked up 2 copies.

  5. #30
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Been a while since I've looked up the price lists for some of my LPs. A lot of the stuff in my collection is pretty rare, particularly the audiophile pressings and 12" remixes (many of which were never issued on CD). Some of the more interesting items that I still have include ...

    Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon (Mobile Fidelity Original Master Recording)
    I've seen this LP fetch upwards of $200 on the collector's markets. It's very much considered a holy grail item, even though the latest 200g pressings from last year purportedly rival the MoFi pressings in sound quality. The quality of the MoFi pressing is amazing and sounds better than any of the CD versions I've done A/B comparisons with. Have yet to do an A/B comparison between the MoFi LP and the SACD, but that should be interesting.

    Genesis - Three Sides Live (UK pressing)
    This is a misnomer because the UK LP version actually has four live sides, including sets with Steve Hackett. The US version has studio material on the fourth side, and this material was initially issued in the UK on a separate EP. Once the CD came out, all versions of this album, including the UK version, went with the American track list. The live sets on side 4 of that original UK LP issue have never reappeared.

    The Who - Who's Next (Deutsche Grammaphon pressing)
    DG had a reputation for issuing stellar LP pressings, and they began producing limited edition pressings for several rock bands in the late-70s and early-80s. One of these bands was The Who, for whom DG reissued their entire studio album output. These albums have been popular with collectors, although my particular copy of this album actually sounds like crap -- inner groove distortion galore. I would have returned this album when I bought it, but the store had sold all of their DG copies for The Who and no more were coming in. This is one rare LP that I would probably be willing to part with.

    Supertramp - Cannonball (Direct-to-disc 12" single)
    45RPM 12" single done direct-to-disc -- very unusual for a mainstream rock studio album, but apparently Supertramp chose to record this song using a single live-in-studio take. Master disc cutter Bernie Grundman captured the session. The dynamics on this vinyl version are great with almost pin-point perfect imaging on the horn section and noticeably better sound quality than the CD version.

    Pat Metheny Group - DG/ECM pressings
    I have all of the PMG LPs from Pat Metheny Group through First Circle on Deutsche Grammophon pressings. The music is great, and these pressings are absolutely immaculate -- spot centered with minimal surface noise. Warner originally handled ECM's U.S. distribution, and those LPs had decent pressing quality. But, the quality went up markedly when ECM switched to Polygram as their U.S. distributor, and had the LPs pressed by the DG facilities in Germany. No idea how much these are worth, but they are relatively rare because most of Pat Metheny's ECM-era albums were pressed by Warner. The DG pressings were only produced for a short time.

    James Newton Howard and Friends (Sheffield Lab direct-to-disc)
    For years, this was practically a mandatory demo item at high end audio shows. Up to that time, this was probably the most aggressively recorded drum and percussion I'd ever heard, and it remains one of the most realistic recordings for drum, percussion, and keyboards (acoustic and digital) out there. Like all direct-to-disc LPs, this is a rarity due to limited production. Sheffield made these direct disc LPs even more valuable by purposely mastering the CDs from noisy backup tapes. Sheffield Lab was anti-digital to the extreme, and were accused of purposely making inferior CDs just to promote their agenda. The CDs are still available, and while they sound good, their sound quality is nowhere near as optimal as the LPs.
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  6. #31
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    Hey Feanor, Guess what time it is....

    Well, it's NOT time for me to start another rant on how LP is much more superior than digital medium. But you might want to try a modern LOMC cartridge before setting down to your conclusion. To me, most of MM and HOMC cartridges are NOISY and lack in macro and micro-dynamics. But I think I'll reserve my opinion for another time....

    I think it's very important for "Music Lovers' to have basic knowledge of "Music Collectors". It certainly helps to know what to look out for.

    For instance, any Jazz LP by Pablo offers great music and fidelity. They are pressed on flimpsy wax, and sold for under $5 NM. I always value cheap LP with great music and fidelity. Orignal BN, Verve, Impulse is always nice though

    Though my interest for classical music is growing, my knowledge is very limited. But, based on what I've read, it seems that Late 60's to Late 70's British/Dutch pressings on Decca, London, Argo LPs are superb and consistant.
    Look for a letter "G" in the dead wax.

    Regards,
    JRA

  7. #32
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by basite
    oh yes, that's why they make $30k+ transports...

    everything matters.

    ever heard a setup with a great transport, and a great dac, and a great pre and poweramp?

    you think to linear, to basic overall IMHO. Listen to things before judging something is a waste of money.

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.

    Not really, some things matter not at all.
    You are rather young, so I will forgive your relative ignorance of facts of life, you're pretty smart you'll learn.
    For instance, theres always someone willing to spend 30k on a transport,
    doesnt mean its worth it, nessesariliy, just means that if theres someone dumb enough to buy such a thing theres someone willing to make a buck off of him.
    I HAVE HEARD ALL KINDS OF CD transports and dacs, truth is that a transport just have to read all of the info on the disc, a twelve dollar GPX portable player has to read the same info as a Linn handbuilt job, and both basically read it the same way, a Linn might be more reliable, stable, and pretty, but thats about it.
    TRUTH is the way a CD is authored , and the album on it produced, has more to do with its sound than the transport.
    A lousey disc will be just as lousey on a 30k "transport" as a 20$ portable fresh off of the boat from China
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  8. #33
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Not really, some things matter not at all.
    You are rather young, so I will forgive your relative ignorance of facts of life, you're pretty smart you'll learn.
    For instance, theres always someone willing to spend 30k on a transport,
    doesnt mean its worth it, nessesariliy, just means that if theres someone dumb enough to buy such a thing theres someone willing to make a buck off of him.
    I HAVE HEARD ALL KINDS OF CD transports and dacs, truth is that a transport just have to read all of the info on the disc, a twelve dollar GPX portable player has to read the same info as a Linn handbuilt job, and both basically read it the same way, a Linn might be more reliable, stable, and pretty, but thats about it.
    TRUTH is the way a CD is authored , and the album on it produced, has more to do with its sound than the transport.
    A lousey disc will be just as lousey on a 30k "transport" as a 20$ portable fresh off of the boat from China

    true, I'm young and i'll learn.

    but obviously you're old and have never learned.

    tell me, if you say the cheap player, used as a transport, with a good dac is as good as a expensive dedicated transport, with the same dac, then why do they sound SO VERY DIFFERENT, and this meaning the expensive transport sounds WAAAAY BETTER?

    they have to do the same job in readin stuff, true. That's like saying a lada is equal to a rolls royce. after all, they just have to do the same job, drive, and they both do so, so what's the difference?

    transports do the reading part, ever thought about the fact that there is more information on the disc than you'd expect? information that a cheap player won't read, or will misplace it, or jitter? and transports can be noisy.

    A few weeks ago I heard a Metronome transport (looked pretty weird, but anyways), the thing cost 35k, the dac connected to it cost 19k. for a quick comparison, they hooked up another cheap transport. It was A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE, I tell you. The immense energy the transport could place in the room, how fast and detailed it was, how much more I heard with the expensive one compared to the cheap one.

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
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    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  9. #34
    Aging Smartass
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    Pixie's posts always seem to come from an orifice on his body at the other end than where his mouth is, and what he's posted here is no different. He just KNOWS whatever he claims to, and totally disregards any evidence or experience to disprove him. Basite and I have each provided conclusive proof that a transport makes a difference, but...

    Oh well, it's still fun to see how ridiculous he seems each time something else comes out of his, ah, er, orifice.

  10. #35
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Hi, JRA

    Quote Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
    Well, it's NOT time for me to start another rant on how LP is much more superior than digital medium. But you might want to try a modern LOMC cartridge before setting down to your conclusion. To me, most of MM and HOMC cartridges are NOISY and lack in macro and micro-dynamics. But I think I'll reserve my opinion for another time....
    ...
    Regards,
    JRA
    Although I took exception to O'Shag's assertion that digital is essentially incapable of transparency, I've never been among those who say the CD is better than vinyl, (egronomics and surface damage aside).

    My personal thing with vinyl is simply that it is irrelevant to my listening habits. I have always -- yes, well back in the pre-digital era -- been critical of recording practice and feel that it is the major determinent of sound quality well ahead of the medium. A well-record LP will whip a badly recorded CD or SACD any day.

  11. #36
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basite
    tell me, if you say the cheap player, used as a transport, with a good dac is as good as a expensive dedicated transport, with the same dac, then why do they sound SO VERY DIFFERENT, and this meaning the expensive transport sounds WAAAAY BETTER?
    When one's opinion is based upon speculation, all you get are speculative answers. I've heard the Burmester 969/970 combo at length in a really nice system vs. my GamuT CD-1. Yes, Virginia it does make a difference.

    rw

  12. #37
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    The way I heard it

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Not really, some things matter not at all.
    You are rather young, so I will forgive your relative ignorance of facts of life, you're pretty smart you'll learn.
    ...
    The way I heard it, the process of reading pits on a CD is actually an analog process -- technically quite different from reading 1/0 from hard disk. The slightest scratch or fingerpring is liley to cause a misread. Error correction can attempt to correct misreads but, as I understand, isn't always able to do so perfectly. Also, "jitter", (timing errors), can be introduced by the transport; such jitter can be removed by reclocking the signal but not all DACs do this. So apparently there is scope for one transport to be better than another by reading more accurately and//or introducing less jitter.

    The fact that the CD can be misread is the theoretical basis for surface treatments, green markers, stabalizer mats, etc. that are tauted to improve sound quality. Also, as I understand it, some player/transports read the CD multiple times. Thus they can discard, say, the one read in three that differs from the others, hence error correction process have less to do and bit-prefect delivery to downstream processes, (DAC), is more likely.

    The advantage of decent computer ripping programs have over cheap transports is that they can reread the CD when any error is detected. Since they aren't constrained to real-time, programs can read a CD as many times as necessary -- once Exact Audio Copy (EAC) took over an hour to read a very badly scratched disc I fed it!

    Computers can take the output from the rip program and store it bit-perfectly; subsequently they are able to extract information bit-perfectly from storage and pass it to downstream processes. But computers aren't inevidably better than players because bit errors (rarely) or jitter (more often) can be insinuated after the data has been read and sent on its way.

  13. #38
    Mutant from table 9
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    Oh, boy, this is really devolving into vinyl vs digital. meh. To each there own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark
    To my mind the biggest distinction is that I don't sell off stuff, period.
    I know, right? I've never even thrown out anything, unless it was broken. I can't sell/discard stuff because I might want to listen to it. Sure I haven't played it in years, but I still might want to listen to it. How much would it suck if this weren't there to listen to.

    As to value, I know I've actually got some pretty valuable rare stuff. But, it's so specific that it would be difficult to sell for top dollar, even with eBay. I've got alot of Touch and Go vinyl from the 80s. There's probably some guy out there willing to pay hundreds bucks for my pristine Scratch Acid debut EP. But what are the odds we would cross paths even on ebay? I'd never part with it anyway. If I sold it then I could never hear "She Said" again the way it was originally heard. I wanna hear it the way it sounded in the dorm rooms of the mid 80s.

    Other probably very valuable stuff that I would never part with:

    Lots of The Damned in good condition, including 10" EPs and various promo materials.
    Lots of Cocteau Twins 12" and 7"
    More Touch and Go records from Killdozer, Die Kruzen, Rapeman, ect.
    Not very mainstream, but very valuable to punk, hardcore, and grunge fans.

    In a gross genre swing, I've actually been picking up a lot of metal lately because it is getting harder to find, especially the various censored covers. There are alot of rare Scorpions covers that were censored, including an infamous one for Virgin Killer, but, you would have to be a fool to seek that one out, and no I do not have it. That one can get bid up very high on ebay, unless of course ebay discovers it and cancels the auction. But I do have original covers for In Trance and Love at First Sting, and am always on the look out for the original covers of Taken By Force and Lovedrive. If your curious Wikipedia has all the various censored covers, including Vigin Killer, but it is not safe for work. Then there are covers like Poison (Open Up and Say Ahh) and Wasp (Animal - F**k Like A Beast). They don't fetch alot of money in comparison with the Butcher Cover, but they are fun to collect.
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  14. #39
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I used to have a rather large collection of LP's. Somewhere around 3k. One day, the wife decided that they were taking up too much room. When I came home I panicked that they were gone. Then relived as she told me that she had only moved them. Then back to panic when she told me of their new location, behind the furnace.
    As you can guess, I no longer value my LP collection.
    Anyone want an old Technics TT for cheap?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  15. #40
    Mutant from table 9
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I used to have a rather large collection of LP's. Somewhere around 3k. One day, the wife decided that they were taking up too much room. When I came home I panicked that they were gone. Then relived as she told me that she had only moved them. Then back to panic when she told me of their new location, behind the furnace.
    As you can guess, I no longer value my LP collection.
    Anyone want an old Technics TT for cheap?
    Two sheets of glass and your oven at is lowest setting will do wonders for warped records, but I wouldn't want to try it with 3000.
    ______________________
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  16. #41
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    A well-record LP will whip a badly recorded CD or SACD any day.
    That's a subtle way to smack us in da face.

  17. #42
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    [QUOTE=basite]true, I'm young and i'll learn.

    but obviously you're old and have never learned.

    tell me, if you say the cheap player, used as a transport, with a good dac is as good as a expensive dedicated transport, with the same dac, then why do they sound SO VERY DIFFERENT, and this meaning the expensive transport sounds WAAAAY BETTER?
    Of course a cheap transport wont be as good as an expensive one, but you'd be surprized
    at how little difference there is. This has been proved time and again in double blind tests
    If a transport is that important then why do most "high end" CD players use rather low grade transports from Sony, etc?
    MARANTZ has their own dedicated transport in their SACD player, and thought that was so special they advertise it, because it goes against the custom of using generic drives , even in more expensive players

    they have to do the same job in readin stuff, true. That's like saying a lada is equal to a rolls royce. after all, they just have to do the same job, drive, and they both do so, so what's the difference?
    My point exactly.
    THE question to ask is that if a Rolls is so "special" then why does it have a GM
    transmission?


    transports do the reading part, ever thought about the fact that there is more information on the disc than you'd expect? information that a cheap player won't read, or will misplace it, or jitter? and transports can be noisy.
    There is no "extra" information, in fact even cheap players "oversample" to get a good read.
    If a player doesnt read all of the info on the disc then its malfunctioning, and you will be able to tell easily


    A few weeks ago I heard a Metronome transport (looked pretty weird, but anyways), the thing cost 35k, the dac connected to it cost 19k. for a quick comparison, they hooked up another cheap transport. It was A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE, I tell you. The immense energy the transport could place in the room, how fast and detailed it was, how much more I heard with the expensive one compared to the cheap one.
    And the difference was mostly between your ears, not in them.

    do you know why turntables suddenly became so popular?
    Because audiophile snobs couldnt stand the fact that a cheap CD player, with proper dacs and gear, could sound as good as an expensive one.
    A TURNTABLE has to be expensive in order to overcome the deficicencies in the medium, and the difference is still not that great.
    One of the best CD players you can buy is a five disc yamaha, and you dont have to keep
    getting up to change discs.
    The absolute best isnt a single tray, its a five tray, its quite easy to make one of those.
    Onkyo, MARANTZ, several make five disc changers, and the only diff between them and a single tray is price, single for some reason cost more in spite of the fact that they are inconveinent.
    WHEN I had a Yamaha five disc I shot down a lot of "fancy" players with a blindfold
    (and pissed a lot off in the process)
    And being old I have learned.
    Mainly how to seperate hype from reality, when you learn just how hard it is to get by you will learn also, mainly not to waste precious resources on hype and whats "supposed" to sound good, as opposed to what does sound good for the right price
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
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  18. #43
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Of course a cheap transport wont be as good as an expensive one, but you'd be surprized
    at how little difference there is. This has been proved time and again in double blind tests
    If a transport is that important then why do most "high end" CD players use rather low grade transports from Sony, etc?
    MARANTZ has their own dedicated transport in their SACD player, and thought that was so special they advertise it, because it goes against the custom of using generic drives , even in more expensive players
    weird, because Marantz uses Philips transports in most of their models...
    and don't forget Sony made exotic players too, in which were really good transports of their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixie
    My point exactly.
    THE question to ask is that if a Rolls is so "special" then why does it have a GM
    transmission?
    it's based on a GM transmission. that's not the same. and that was a while ago, since 2000, they're under BMW, and before that, they were from VW/audi group...

    Quote Originally Posted by pixie
    There is no "extra" information, in fact even cheap players "oversample" to get a good read.
    If a player doesnt read all of the info on the disc then its malfunctioning, and you will be able to tell easily
    there is no information that is not read, but there is tons of information that just isn't heard with a cheap transport, or with a cheap dac.
    an expensive DAC with a cheap transport will sound good, but you won't hear everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixie
    And the difference was mostly between your ears, not in them.

    do you know why turntables suddenly became so popular?
    Because audiophile snobs couldnt stand the fact that a cheap CD player, with proper dacs and gear, could sound as good as an expensive one.
    A TURNTABLE has to be expensive in order to overcome the deficicencies in the medium, and the difference is still not that great.
    One of the best CD players you can buy is a five disc yamaha, and you dont have to keep
    getting up to change discs.
    The absolute best isnt a single tray, its a five tray, its quite easy to make one of those.
    Onkyo, MARANTZ, several make five disc changers, and the only diff between them and a single tray is price, single for some reason cost more in spite of the fact that they are inconveinent.
    WHEN I had a Yamaha five disc I shot down a lot of "fancy" players with a blindfold
    (and pissed a lot off in the process)
    And being old I have learned.
    Mainly how to seperate hype from reality, when you learn just how hard it is to get by you will learn also, mainly not to waste precious resources on hype and whats "supposed" to sound good, as opposed to what does sound good for the right price
    for me, the turntable became popular because I realized that my not overly expensive tt sounded better to my ears than my cd player.

    oh, and a 5 disc changer is more convenient. That's all it is. On the other hand, it's unstable: real high end manufacturers spend lots of money in a transport that is quiet, solid and extremely stable. I last heared a Accuphase transport. The housing to suspend the actual transport alone weighed 18kg(not the outer case, just the part that suspends the actual transport). and was made out of solid cast steel. it could withstand a bomb impact, so to speak. your yamaha 5 disc changer, on the other hand, has a HUGE tray, in which houses a platter carrying 5 cd's, and you can tell me whatever you want, but that thing won't be stable at all.

    it's probably also noisy, since it's unstable it will make noise. and will suffer from vibrations (and yes, you might say that that's all voodoo, and digital won't be influenced by vibrations, well, I experienced different.)

    and 'several make 5 disc changers' still doesn't make it good.
    diahatshu, lada, kia, sanyongg, several make (cheap, bad) cars too, and that doesn't make them good.

    by your logic, wonder why there are no high end 5 disc changers...

    exactly, because it's impossible to make one that would outperform a high end single tray cd player costing the same.

    in your system it won't make much of a difference, even if you used the most exotic transport in your system, the run of the mill DAC's in your receiver won't be able to do it justice. With a system like yours, and your close minded view on high end gear, convenience is what I'd be looking for too...


    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

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  19. #44
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    My vinyl collection is truly invaluable.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  20. #45
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
    Well, it's NOT time for me to start another rant on how LP is much more superior than digital medium. But you might want to try a modern LOMC cartridge before setting down to your conclusion. To me, most of MM and HOMC cartridges are NOISY and lack in macro and micro-dynamics. But I think I'll reserve my opinion for another time....

    I think it's very important for "Music Lovers' to have basic knowledge of "Music Collectors". It certainly helps to know what to look out for.

    For instance, any Jazz LP by Pablo offers great music and fidelity. They are pressed on flimpsy wax, and sold for under $5 NM. I always value cheap LP with great music and fidelity. Orignal BN, Verve, Impulse is always nice though

    Though my interest for classical music is growing, my knowledge is very limited. But, based on what I've read, it seems that Late 60's to Late 70's British/Dutch pressings on Decca, London, Argo LPs are superb and consistant.
    Look for a letter "G" in the dead wax.

    Regards,
    JRA
    With the smaller labels though, the pressing quality can really vary depending on which outsource manufacturer they used to press their LPs. When I lived in L.A., I used to buy a lot of jazz LPs from now defunct labels like Intima, Passport, Pausa, Spindletop, and Nova. I remember that they would sometimes have to move the production around to different pressing houses depending on capacity, and the quality could change noticeably from one production run to the next.
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  21. #46
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    The way I heard it, the process of reading pits on a CD is actually an analog process -- technically quite different from reading 1/0 from hard disk. The slightest scratch or fingerpring is liley to cause a misread. Error correction can attempt to correct misreads but, as I understand, isn't always able to do so perfectly. Also, "jitter", (timing errors), can be introduced by the transport; such jitter can be removed by reclocking the signal but not all DACs do this. So apparently there is scope for one transport to be better than another by reading more accurately and//or introducing less jitter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    The fact that the CD can be misread is the theoretical basis for surface treatments, green markers, stabalizer mats, etc. that are tauted to improve sound quality. Also, as I understand it, some player/transports read the CD multiple times. Thus they can discard, say, the one read in three that differs from the others, hence error correction process have less to do and bit-prefect delivery to downstream processes, (DAC), is more likely.

    The advantage of decent computer ripping programs have over cheap transports is that they can reread the CD when any error is detected. Since they aren't constrained to real-time, programs can read a CD as many times as necessary -- once Exact Audio Copy (EAC) took over an hour to read a very badly scratched disc I fed it!

    Computers can take the output from the rip program and store it bit-perfectly; subsequently they are able to extract information bit-perfectly from storage and pass it to downstream processes. But computers aren't inevidably better than players because bit errors (rarely) or jitter (more often) can be insinuated after the data has been read and sent on its way.


    THEN by definition a HD is an analog process, since its a "head" reading a disc
    magnetically.
    And computers CAN store a music selection bit perfect, which is why they are slowly supplanting CD, and will eventually, for this and other reasons
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  22. #47
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basite
    weird, because Marantz uses Philips transports in most of their models...
    and don't forget Sony made exotic players too, in which were really good transports of their own.
    I would like to see one of these "exotic" players.
    And Marantz used a proprietary drive in their 799$ sacd player




    there is no information that is not read, but there is tons of information that just isn't heard with a cheap transport, or with a cheap dac.an expensive DAC with a cheap transport will sound good, but you won't hear everything.
    In which case the player will be malfunctioning.
    A cheap player will read the same information as an expensive one.
    its not like a TT where some resolution will be lost by a bad cart, all information is read by a CD drive



    oh, and a 5 disc changer is more convenient. That's all it is. On the other hand, it's unstable: real high end manufacturers spend lots of money in a transport that is quiet, solid and extremely stable. I last heared a Accuphase transport. The housing to suspend the actual transport alone weighed 18kg(not the outer case, just the part that suspends the actual transport). and was made out of solid cast steel. it could withstand a bomb impact, so to speak. your yamaha 5 disc changer, on the other hand, has a HUGE tray, in which houses a platter carrying 5 cd's, and you can tell me whatever you want, but that thing won't be stable at all.
    This is a typical rant of someone who doesnt know about five disc changers, or how they are built.
    THE TRAY is not the PLAYER, that is in the back and (usually) on the right side,
    it actually grips the CD , AND IS EXTREMELY STABLE.
    This is why you're able to change discs when one is playing.
    So, in actuality the five disc is really a SINGLE DISC in operation.
    A changer actually costs more to make, so manufacturers perpetuate the notion that
    there is something inherently more stable in a single disc player.
    Actually it costs less to make, which is their interest.
    And I am not interested in a player that can surrive a "bomb" impact, if a bomb goes off I dont wont to be near it.
    Just like I dont want to pay for overengineering, I dont need such a thing, it wont sound any better so why pay for it?


    it's probably also noisy, since it's unstable it will make noise. and will suffer from vibrations (and yes, you might say that that's all voodoo, and digital won't be influenced by vibrations, well, I experienced different.)
    Modern changers are very quiet, and digital wont be affected, and your "experience" is again between your ears

    and 'several make 5 disc changers' still doesn't make it good. [Qdiahatshu, lada, kia, sanyongg, several make (cheap, bad) cars too, and that doesn't make them good.
    by your logic, wonder why there are no high end 5 disc changers...
    All of those manufacturers make quality cars, by your "logic" we should all be driving Lexus


    exactly, because it's impossible to make one that would outperform a high end single tray cd player costing the same.
    Not true, but a "high end" changer isnt made much because marketing has sold the high end crowd on the premise that making a "high end" changer is difficult, if not impossible.
    This allows them to use cheaper single tray designs.
    But you will not be able to tell a 300$ Onkyo changer (rather expensive in my book)
    from a 3000$ dollar linn with a blindfold on


    in your system it won't make much of a difference, even if you used the most exotic transport in your system, the run of the mill DAC's in your receiver won't be able to do it justice. With a system like yours, and your close minded view on high end gear, convenience is what I'd be looking for too...
    Well, not everybody can afford a MAC.
    But my 1200 buck receiver has 192 khz dacs, and a very quite preamp section,
    its often used as a preamp, and 1200 bucks isnt cheap for a receiver, really.
    The main limitaton in my system is amplication, receiver amps arent the best.
    Maybe I can get my daddy to buy me a "mac" someday

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.[/QUOTE]
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  23. #48
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I used to have a rather large collection of LP's. Somewhere around 3k. One day, the wife decided that they were taking up too much room. When I came home I panicked that they were gone. Then relived as she told me that she had only moved them. Then back to panic when she told me of their new location, behind the furnace.
    As you can guess, I no longer value my LP collection.
    Anyone want an old Technics TT for cheap?

    I already have two, thank you.
    Do these things ever die? Are they made out of depleted uranium or something?
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    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  24. #49
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    [QUOTE=pixelthis]
    Quote Originally Posted by basite
    true, I'm young and i'll learn.

    but obviously you're old and have never learned.



    Of course a cheap transport wont be as good as an expensive one, but you'd be surprized
    at how little difference there is. This has been proved time and again in double blind tests
    If a transport is that important then why do most "high end" CD players use rather low grade transports from Sony, etc?
    MARANTZ has their own dedicated transport in their SACD player, and thought that was so special they advertise it, because it goes against the custom of using generic drives , even in more expensive players



    My point exactly.
    THE question to ask is that if a Rolls is so "special" then why does it have a GM
    transmission?




    There is no "extra" information, in fact even cheap players "oversample" to get a good read.
    If a player doesnt read all of the info on the disc then its malfunctioning, and you will be able to tell easily




    And the difference was mostly between your ears, not in them.

    do you know why turntables suddenly became so popular?
    Because audiophile snobs couldnt stand the fact that a cheap CD player, with proper dacs and gear, could sound as good as an expensive one.
    A TURNTABLE has to be expensive in order to overcome the deficicencies in the medium, and the difference is still not that great.
    One of the best CD players you can buy is a five disc yamaha, and you dont have to keep
    getting up to change discs.

    The absolute best isnt a single tray, its a five tray, its quite easy to make one of those.
    Onkyo, MARANTZ, several make five disc changers, and the only diff between them and a single tray is price, single for some reason cost more in spite of the fact that they are inconveinent.
    WHEN I had a Yamaha five disc I shot down a lot of "fancy" players with a blindfold
    (and pissed a lot off in the process)
    And being old I have learned.
    Mainly how to seperate hype from reality, when you learn just how hard it is to get by you will learn also, mainly not to waste precious resources on hype and whats "supposed" to sound good, as opposed to what does sound good for the right price
    I have a Yamaha 5 disc player. I think it's a CD-909, actually found it in a dumpster. I have to say it will play any cd I have without error. I have yet to stick one in it that has failed. I could never afford a $1000.oo or up cd player, nor would I probably want to spend that much on one. I think it sounds terrific. I am bias to yamaha though. My 2 channel and surround system is all Yamaha except for my Pioneer HPM - 100's.

    I think with todays technology a decent cd player will produce the same sound as a very expencive one.
    I could be wrong, but I still beleive that it's still in the original recording of the CD that makes the difference. You can tell that easily from playing one cd to the next. Some just sound nicer.

    Just my two cents.

    jjp

  25. #50
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    I would like to see one of these "exotic" players.
    And Marantz used a proprietary drive in their 799$ sacd player

    pick one, these are just the absolute top players...

    5000 series
    SCD1
    scd 777ES
    cdpr10 & DASR10

    most of these are like unobtainium now, so expect dazzling prices...
    They're very high regarded because of their extremely high quality and sound quality.

    and look, all of them are single trays...

    wanna see an exotic Yamaha cd player too?
    here's one:
    CDX 10000

    another single tray, yes

    gotta mean something huh,
    you gonna say you know better than a whole lot of very intelligent engineers, who have been thinking of how to design the best cd player?
    right, I didn't think so..

    and here, digital high end at it's best. Accuphase.

    DP65


    and another single tray.
    you could say that it's out of production now, but check their current products too, good luck finding a changer...

    in fact, I haven't found any 'high end' cd changer yet...

    and no, that $300 is not what I mean with 'high end'.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixeldude
    In which case the player will be malfunctioning.
    A cheap player will read the same information as an expensive one.
    its not like a TT where some resolution will be lost by a bad cart, all information is read by a CD drive

    so, still, why do they sound so different?
    If I remember correctly, you agreed that there was a (according to you 'small') difference between transports...



    Quote Originally Posted by pixeldude
    And I am not interested in a player that can surrive a "bomb" impact, if a bomb goes off I dont wont to be near it.
    Just like I dont want to pay for overengineering, I dont need such a thing, it wont sound any better so why pay for it?
    you missed the part 'so to speak', it wasn't ment literally...

    And I don't pay for overengineering, I pay for quality, and quality still comes at a price, especially in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixeldude
    All of those manufacturers make quality cars, by your "logic" we should all be driving Lexus

    I don't know, but have you ever seen a 'quality' lada? I sure haven't...
    the other brands, they make 'showable' vehicles, but they still are not 'quality cars'...

    Quote Originally Posted by pixeldude
    But you will not be able to tell a 300$ Onkyo changer (rather expensive in my book)
    from a 3000$ dollar linn with a blindfold on
    $300 is 'expensive', just not in this hobby, where $300 for a cd player is pretty much at the bottom of the pricelist..

    and I've done the blindfolded test multiple times, between players costing around the afromentioned $300, as well as players costing much more than $3000, and all players in between.

    I was able to pick almost every last one of them out, and I never placed a cheap one in the expensive category, and vice versa.



    Quote Originally Posted by pixeldude
    Well, not everybody can afford a MAC.
    But my 1200 buck receiver has 192 khz dacs, and a very quite preamp section,
    its often used as a preamp, and 1200 bucks isnt cheap for a receiver, really.
    The main limitaton in my system is amplication, receiver amps arent the best.
    Maybe I can get my daddy to buy me a "mac" someday
    oh, hey, my $70 does too. in fact, it has 5 of them. having 192khz dac's is just a small part of what matters.
    and no, $1200 is not cheap for a receiver, but it's not overly expensive too (well, for as far as receivers go...), it's pretty middle of the range...

    a 1986/88 Meridian 206 for example will be miles ahead of your changer in sound quality (as well as build quality, I think...), and the DAC's in your receiver. And it's only got 16 bit dac's!

    oh hey, and I payed my mac myself, every last penny of it. Dad payed a little part in advance, just to make sure the dealer reserved the amp for me, and I payed that little part back...
    I bought it SECONDHAND for €1600, it's nearly 11 years old now...


    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Last edited by basite; 05-05-2008 at 09:43 AM.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
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    I'm a happy 20 year old...

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