How long do I wait?

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  • 05-17-2008, 02:40 AM
    jimib
    How long do I wait?
    I purchased a pair of speakers from a member of another web site 10 days ago.I paid him on 5/6. 5/17, still no tracking number. He told me he would call me back 5/14. That call never happened. I talked tim on the phone on 3 occasions. He keeps claiming that he's waiting on shipping boxes. I have 3 phone numbers for him, all legit, his address and even sent the pics of the speakers with the serial numbers to the company to make sure they were what he said they were. He claims they're 6 months old, the company says Sept, 1999. I got a very good price but how long do I wait before I dispute this with Paypal, Visa, and the other website. I'm a patient guy but now I'm starting to get a little concerned.
  • 05-17-2008, 03:08 AM
    Feanor
    You have to judge
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jimib
    I purchased a pair of speakers from a member of another web site 10 days ago.I paid him on 5/6. 5/17, still no tracking number. He told me he would call me back 5/14. That call never happened. I talked tim on the phone on 3 occasions. He keeps claiming that he's waiting on shipping boxes. I have 3 phone numbers for him, all legit, his address and even sent the pics of the speakers with the serial numbers to the company to make sure they were what he said they were. He claims they're 6 months old, the company says Sept, 1999. I got a very good price but how long do I wait before I dispute this with Paypal, Visa, and the other website. I'm a patient guy but now I'm starting to get a little concerned.

    Obviously you're never going to deal with this guy again. You have been in touch with him and he has responded: you are the best one to decide when enough is enough.

    But he's not necessarily a crook and he's not necessarily lying. Of course he should have obtained the shipping boxes before or at least while the speakers were up for sale, but it could be true. "Six months old" could simply mean he's had them for six months -- that's a deception of course.
  • 05-17-2008, 03:36 AM
    thekid
    Well they should have been shipped by now but you are still within a period of 2 weeks so I would not pull the trigger yet. After the 27th which would be 3 weeks I would have to say IMO you have given the seller enough time to do the right thing by any reasonable standard. Good Luck!!
  • 05-17-2008, 08:56 AM
    blackraven
    Cancel the order! If he's reputable he will not dispute it. 10 days is enough time to ship something.
  • 05-17-2008, 03:40 PM
    Mr Peabody
    I agree, he should have had the speakers ready to go when he listed them. Take what ever action you can now. It may be more difficult the longer you wait. And, if they aren't overly large or some odd build any box the right size and proper packing would work.
  • 05-17-2008, 07:16 PM
    PDN
    Yes, cancel it and get a full refund. That is entirely unacceptable. I would also report him to the website's board or whatever they call themselves. There is no excuse for this and he should have had those boxes at the time of sale. A local UPS or ship and pack type store can properly box them up and ship them out. Don't you just hate this type of behavior? Let us know how this turns out.
  • 05-18-2008, 03:05 AM
    jimib
    Thakns for the replies. I'm giving him 14 days from payment, then it's getting disputed. That's what I had planned on doing in the beginning. I always have things ready when listed, and the only time my shipping is delayed (live reptiles) is occasionally weather, and the buyer is updated. It ticks me off because I've seen several other deals I could have jumped on since my payment.
  • 05-18-2008, 05:03 AM
    thekid
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jimib
    Thakns for the replies. I'm giving him 14 days from payment, then it's getting disputed. That's what I had planned on doing in the beginning. I always have things ready when listed, and the only time my shipping is delayed (live reptiles) is occasionally weather, and the buyer is updated. It ticks me off because I've seen several other deals I could have jumped on since my payment.

    You are being more than fair.
    Good luck, I hope it works out for you!!
  • 05-20-2008, 02:03 PM
    jimib
    Thanks again for the responses. Today, 5/20, I get an e-mail saying the boxes arrived and when he took them to ship them the post office broke one of the speakers. He said to give him a phone number to call me to discuss the situation. I responded with " I want a refund asap". We'll see what happens. I'm guessing he has a local buyer or someone offered him more. Whatever, just give me my money back. I now have a little more stashed away to add to it for another pair.
  • 05-20-2008, 03:14 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Somethings wrong, you'd think the speakers were packed when he took them to the Post Office, what the heck did they do to break them. What speakers were they anyway?
  • 05-20-2008, 03:24 PM
    blackraven
    Smells fishy to me!
  • 05-21-2008, 11:15 AM
    Glen B
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jimib
    Today, 5/20, I get an e-mail saying the boxes arrived and when he took them to ship them the post office broke one of the speakers.

    Sounds like he's feeding you a crock. Ask for your money back.
  • 05-21-2008, 03:58 PM
    jimib
    They were Totem Sttafs. I'm giving them until Friday to refund my money. After that I'll dispute it with my credit card company, paypal, and the website.
  • 05-21-2008, 04:50 PM
    dogorman
    Gosh it's a topsy-turvy world out there: while you were having this experience, I had a buyer for a pair of Audio Physic Spark fours say, first, that he'd sent the payment to a typo'ed paypal ID, then that paypal was saying he had changed his password when he hadn't, then that he couldn't use paypal from his office computer, and then that he couldn't resolve the situation after work because he'd be getting home too late. In the meantime, of course, all four of the interested and potential backup buyers all switched to something else. I guess misery loves company, but at least you know that it's not just buyers getting this kind of run-around out there.
  • 05-23-2008, 03:19 PM
    jimib
    They're still on audiogn.com. Search Totem Sttafs. They should say "sucker taken" not "sale pending". I'm sure it goes both ways. I still have gotten no response from this guy. I will NEVER again buy from an individual. I work too dam hard for my money to get ripped off by chumps like this. That being said, I'm sure 99% of us out here are honest and legit, but this has soured me badly. I'll stick to local buying now. Thanks for your responses and do your homework better than I did before you buy.
  • 05-23-2008, 06:04 PM
    PDN
    jimib: That's really a shame and totally inexcusable. That's a great deal of money you spent. Can you dispute with Paypal? Please don't be discouraged about audiogon. Overall, it's an excellent platform to sell preowned audio components. I see there is no feedback for this seller. That's a good indication he may not be trustworthy. Have you reported it to the staff at audiogon? Perhaps they can ban him for life. Perhaps the audiogon board can identify him for you so you can send him a certified letter demanding your money back or give you his phone number. Hang in there !!
  • 05-25-2008, 06:55 PM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jimib
    I still have gotten no response from this guy. I will NEVER again buy from an individual. I work too dam hard for my money to get ripped off by chumps like this. .

    Well, first off "hi" jim, sorry I couldn't be welcoming you to the forum on better circumstances. And, btw, the Totems are nice speakers so, y'know, credit to you for having good taste even if you never get 'em.

    The sad thing is it may not even be some type of malevolent scam. Mostly, you never hear from those cats again. It really just sounds like this a completely incompetent person, a fool to the highest degree. Make sure to use the Audiogon dispute system to warn others.

    Good luck with future endeavors and let us know what you end up with.
  • 05-26-2008, 03:39 AM
    Feanor
    Yep, and re. Audiogon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    ...
    The sad thing is it may not even be some type of malevolent scam. Mostly, you never hear from those cats again. It really just sounds like this a completely incompetent person, a fool to the highest degree. Make sure to use the Audiogon dispute system to warn others.

    Good luck with future endeavors and let us know what you end up with.

    I agree, BS. As likely as not, this person is just someone incompontent and indifferent to the legitimate concerns of others.

    As for Audiogon, our member should try to leave feedback for this deadbeat. The problem is than Audiogon's recent policy is not to post any feedback unless that feedback is approved by the person receiving it; this make the feedback mechanism worthless for weeding out the crooks and deadbeats.
  • 05-26-2008, 03:42 AM
    jimib
    I have disputed with Paypal and Audiogon so far. Visa is next. I am in no way slamming the credible people on Audiogon. Seems like an excellent site to do audio business, you're going to run into the occasional rip-off anywhere you go. I should have done my homework first, I got a little impulsive and pulled the trigger too soon. First, the guy has no feedback on Audiogon. I also should have contacted Totem with the serial numbers first. He still has stuff for sale on Craigslist, in New York. But not the Totems. Funny thing, in his Audiogon ad you can see the cables he is selling on Craigslist. That ad says they were driving Totem Forests. This guy just can't stop.
  • 05-26-2008, 05:21 AM
    Feanor
    Feedback advice
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jimib
    I have disputed with Paypal and Audiogon so far. Visa is next. I am in no way slamming the credible people on Audiogon. Seems like an excellent site to do audio business, you're going to run into the occasional rip-off anywhere you go. I should have done my homework first, I got a little impulsive and pulled the trigger too soon. First, the guy has no feedback on Audiogon. ...

    Never buy from anyone without feedback. (That makes it tough if you're a first time seller, but too bad.)

    As I mentioned, I believe it's Audiogon's latest-greatest policy to post feedback only if the person receiving it approves: effectively you can kiss goodbye to negative feed back on that site.

    On eBay I look for 99+% positive if the guy has 200+ transactions. If fewer transaction, say 100+, I look for 97%, then read all the negative feedback for him as a seller. Always check for ID changes and lack of recent feedback: both are bad signs.

    Recently eBay changed it's policy to disallow negative feedback to buyers. This is actually a good think because it prevents "retaliatory" feedback from sellers. Most often, (at least in the past), a seller would wait for feedback from the buyer; if he got negative feedback, (justified or not), he would ding the innocent buyer with undeserved negative feedback. This practice is no longer possible according to what I've heard.
  • 05-26-2008, 06:21 AM
    dogorman
    I would agree to never buy from someone with zero feedback, and offer this friendly suggestion to any zero-feedback sellers who might be reading this thread over our shoulders: start with small stuff like cables. Prove you're trustworthy on fifty dollar transactions. It's worth the money you'll lose from purchasing and reselling ancillaries that you don't actually need, to demonstrate to the rest of the a'gon community that you're as good as your word. I also agree that this particular seller probably isn't intentionally disreputable -- just stupid. The thing is, at that dreaded moment when we must step over into dispute, any remaining good-faith on the part of the disputee is out the window, so we can't base our conclusions about "stupid vs. disreputable" on anything that has happened since then.

    Both Audiogon and EBay, in my opinion, need a much more transparent and easy-to-find guide to the etiquette of buying and selling in such environments. I had an EBay'er leave me a neutral feedback because other people sniped my item at the last minute and she had to pay a lot more than she was expecting -- which is just about the most obnoxious and wrong thing that she could have done to me without actually throwing a brick through my window -- and once she'd left it, there was nothing I could do, other than to "reply".
  • 05-26-2008, 06:53 PM
    Groundbeef
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    Recently eBay changed it's policy to disallow negative feedback to buyers. This is actually a good think because it prevents "retaliatory" feedback from sellers. Most often, (at least in the past), a seller would wait for feedback from the buyer; if he got negative feedback, (justified or not), he would ding the innocent buyer with undeserved negative feedback. This practice is no longer possible according to what I've heard.

    If you sell on Ebay, that is a TERRIBLE change that was just made. In effect, Ebay has allowed NO type of negative feedback for buyers.

    As a seller, I WANT to know who is buying from me. Now, I have no way to tell. As a buyer, if you never pay...so what, no negative feedback. Like to make unreasonable demands?...so what, no repercussions. Like to return goods, usually the broken one you have at home, and use my "good one" as a replacement...no one the wiser..no negative feedback.

    The no-neg feeback is BS. Looks good on paper if you are a scam buyer, but no so good for sellers!
  • 05-27-2008, 02:22 AM
    Feanor
    Of course ...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Groundbeef
    If you sell on Ebay, that is a TERRIBLE change that was just made. In effect, Ebay has allowed NO type of negative feedback for buyers.

    As a seller, I WANT to know who is buying from me. Now, I have no way to tell. As a buyer, if you never pay...so what, no negative feedback. Like to make unreasonable demands?...so what, no repercussions. Like to return goods, usually the broken one you have at home, and use my "good one" as a replacement...no one the wiser..no negative feedback.

    The no-neg feeback is BS. Looks good on paper if you are a scam buyer, but no so good for sellers!

    I certainly do see your point, GB. However I think the "retaliatory" feedback problem was the bigger issue.

    As seller I don't not ship until paid. I have had a couple of slow payers but they paid in the end; nowadays on eBay I stipulate PayPal and that payment must be made in three days. I haven't had the return problem you describe because I sell everything with "no warranty of any kind" and I ship it FOB shipping point.
  • 05-27-2008, 11:22 AM
    Groundbeef
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    I certainly do see your point, GB. However I think the "retaliatory" feedback problem was the bigger issue.

    As seller I don't not ship until paid. I have had a couple of slow payers but they paid in the end; nowadays on eBay I stipulate PayPal and that payment must be made in three days. I haven't had the return problem you describe because I sell everything with "no warranty of any kind" and I ship it FOB shipping point.

    Well, my friend, I have some BAD news for you.

    I have been selling on EBAY for years, and just thought I would point out a few potential problems with your above post.

    1. You are in Canada. If you use paypal, and ship to the US, you are a fool to be selling A/V equipment. PayPal is a joke, and offers NO protection for international sellers. If your "customer" pays via PayPal (from US or any other country other than Canada), gets the goods, and THEN intiates a chargeback...guess what. You are screwed. PayPal doesn't offer ANY seller protections for international purchases.

    2. You can stipulate ANY payment timeframe you want. If your customer doesn't obide by them, it really doesn't matter. EBAY will not process a complaint for non-payment for 7 days. Cry about it all you want, but the CUSTOMER has 7 days to pay. Per EBAY.

    If you sell to another customer after 3 days because thats your "policy", you can be reported by the original buyer for violating the auction, and you risk potential suspension, or becoming NARU (Not a registerd user).

    3. By accepting PayPal for purchases, you are FORCED to accept returns. If a customer doesn't like what you sell, they can report it "SNAD (significantly not as described) and PayPal can FORCE you to accept the return. It doesn't matter that you stipulate it in your auction. PayPal will overrule you every time. As an added bonus, your customer can then initiate a chargeback with their visa/mastercard that funded their PayPal purchase, and keep YOUR goods, AND get their money back.

    If you don't believe me, go here:

    http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum.jspa?forumID=97

    Post any questions you may have w/regards to PayPal here.

    It's only a matter of time until you get burnt. And now that you won't know who is a bad buyer, good luck. Ebay just killed one small way sellers could protect themselves.

    As far as feedback extortion goes, this recent move by Ebay has only made the buyers have the upper hand. Now they can pass out negative feedback for ANY slight they may have with the seller. And the seller is SCREWED.
  • 05-27-2008, 12:38 PM
    Feanor
    Ok, thanks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Groundbeef
    Well, my friend, I have some BAD news for you.

    I have been selling on EBAY for years, and just thought I would point out a few potential problems with your above post.

    1. You are in Canada. If you use paypal, and ship to the US, you are a fool to be selling A/V equipment. PayPal is a joke, and offers NO protection for international sellers. If your "customer" pays via PayPal (from US or any other country other than Canada), gets the goods, and THEN intiates a chargeback...guess what. You are screwed. PayPal doesn't offer ANY seller protections for international purchases.

    2. You can stipulate ANY payment timeframe you want. If your customer doesn't obide by them, it really doesn't matter. EBAY will not process a complaint for non-payment for 7 days. Cry about it all you want, but the CUSTOMER has 7 days to pay. Per EBAY.

    If you sell to another customer after 3 days because thats your "policy", you can be reported by the original buyer for violating the auction, and you risk potential suspension, or becoming NARU (Not a registerd user).

    3. By accepting PayPal for purchases, you are FORCED to accept returns. If a customer doesn't like what you sell, they can report it "SNAD (significantly not as described) and PayPal can FORCE you to accept the return. It doesn't matter that you stipulate it in your auction. PayPal will overrule you every time. As an added bonus, your customer can then initiate a chargeback with their visa/mastercard that funded their PayPal purchase, and keep YOUR goods, AND get their money back.

    If you don't believe me, go here:

    http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum.jspa?forumID=97

    Post any questions you may have w/regards to PayPal here.

    It's only a matter of time until you get burnt. And now that you won't know who is a bad buyer, good luck. Ebay just killed one small way sellers could protect themselves.

    As far as feedback extortion goes, this recent move by Ebay has only made the buyers have the upper hand. Now they can pass out negative feedback for ANY slight they may have with the seller. And the seller is SCREWED.

    Beefy, thanks for your informed comments. Thanks also for the eBay forums link.

    I'm not a big eBay user, either as buyer or seller, (<40 transactions). The majority of my eBay (and also Audiogon sales) have been into the U.S. and such problems as I've had, have not been due to payment -- I guess I'm just lucky.

    As for my terms, I will continue to post them as mentioned. Of course, all my sale items are "as described" and I would contest any SNAD claim even at the risK that I might loose in the end.

    If you are most often the seller you might believe that eBay is favoring the buyer with their new policy and you would be right in a degree. However it seems to me that eBay would be more inclined to favor sellers over buyers; (this is clearly the case at Audiogon). Then again eBay's affiliate, PayPal as payments organization might have the opposite perspective.

    I buy much more than I sell on eBay and I'm glad to be able leave a negative feedback when they deserve it -- I have several times left no feedback rather than risk retaliation. I admire sellers who will leave positive feedback as soon as payment is received although I have tended to wait to get feedback from my buyer.