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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Beefy, thanks for your informed comments. Thanks also for the eBay forums link.
I'm not a big eBay user, either as buyer or seller, (<40 transactions). The majority of my eBay (and also Audiogon sales) have been into the U.S. and such problems as I've had, have not been due to payment -- I guess I'm just lucky..
You have been lucky. And in the future you will never know if your potential buyer is a non-paying, whining, demanding prick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
As for my terms, I will continue to post them as mentioned. Of course, all my sale items are "as described" and I would contest any SNAD claim even at the risK that I might loose in the end..
There is no "risk". On an international sale, you WILL lose. I would insist that international buyers either send cash, or us postal money order (good as cash). If you take PayPal, you are rolling the dice. They "pretend" you have all of these protections, but in reality you don't have any with international payment/buyers. As a buyer, you have some protections.
As an extra bonus for your buyers, do you use standard postal service? Unless you can provide "delivery confirmation" they can simply state they never got the item, and get a refund from PayPal (who will take it from you) and you will never get paid, and out an item.
SNAD can be as little as "the color didn't match the picture", or "there is a small scratch on the bottom where no one will ever see it, but it wasn't disclosed on the auction".
In a PayPal dispute, you don't actually talk to anyone. It's all done via email/complaint console. There is no appeals, or arbitration. PayPal rules, you suffer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
If you are most often the seller you might believe that eBay is favoring the buyer with their new policy and you would be right in a degree. However it seems to me that eBay would be more inclined to favor sellers over buyers; (this is clearly the case at Audiogon). Then again eBay's affiliate, PayPal as payments organization might have the opposite perspective..
Ebay makes NO money off buyers. All the revenue is generated from listings, and sales. They ought to pay a bit more attention to the revenue generators no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I buy much more than I sell on eBay and I'm glad to be able leave a negative feedback when they deserve it -- I have several times left no feedback rather than risk retaliation. I admire sellers who will leave positive feedback as soon as payment is received although I have tended to wait to get feedback from my buyer.
You buy, and you are glad you can leave negative feedback. But the seller that screwed can't leave any? And that seems fair?
And any seller that leaves feedback after only receiving payment is an idiot. I always confirm via ebay email that the product has been received, is in good working order, and is what they want. Then I wait for pos feedback. Then I reciprocate. Once it's given early, there is nothing to keep the buyer from being an ass. (At least that used to be the case).
Neither PayPal OR Ebay use feedback as any sort of "warrenty" clearinghouse. If your customer initiates a chargeback for SNAD, and they have given pos feedback for "great product, I love it", you will still LOSE in an international dispute.
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I had no intention of stirring up a hornets nest. I do, however, like the information I' am reading. I have purchased a few items from e-bay with no problems. My deal on audiogon is partially my fault. New member+ no feedback. I should have known better. I always pay as soon as I have won or been sent an invoice. This is the last time I purchase anything from an individual online though.
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I have always had good luck with Audiogon, but not with eBay. I always email the other party, true audiophiles are usually a cinch to spot; given half a chance they'll go on and on about their system or the item they want to buy/sell.
A crook doesn't have the same insight, in my experience they can't discuss anything audio, I'm immediately suspicious if the buyer/seller can't explain why he wants to buy or sell a given product. One seller told me he had a brand new unit in the factory carton, that particular item hadn't been manufactured for 12 years, I aborted the transaction.
Also I've had bad luck with "second chance" offers on eBay, watch out for these.
Of course this doesn't help you with a well meaning flake.
If you are determined to make an international purchase use an agent and escrow the funds.
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International transactions
Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
....
Of course this doesn't help you with a well meaning flake.
If you are determined to make an international purchase use an agent and escrow the funds.
I have never used escrow but will consider it for larger transactions going forward. I'll bet it has a few gotchas of its own though. Any escrow service providers you'd care to recommend??
However I think the pitfalls of international sales are somewhat exaggerated, especially between U.S. and Canada. If I were a U.S. resident I might nevertheless avoid international transactions -- why be bothered when the U.S. market is so larger? As a Canadian resident it's difficult to be so picky given Canada is a much smaller market. For myself, I am willing to buy and sell across the U.S. border at least.
For a U.S. resident to ship into Canada all that is really needed is a standard customs declaration or a commercial invoice which form can be obtained online from FedEx or UPS. eBay has some good info for Canadian buyers here that is relevant even if it isn't an eBay transaction.
Selling into the U.S. the biggest problems I have had have been with paperwork. I try to be as helpful as possible for my U.S. buyers by providing (1) a commercial invoice, (2) a "goods returning to the U.S." statement for a U.S.-made product, and (3) an FCC statement for tuners and receivers. But note that the last two items aren't necessary if the cost of the component is less than $200.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I have never used escrow but will consider it for larger transactions going forward. I'll bet it has a few gotchas of its own though. Any escrow service providers you'd care to recommend??
However I think the pitfalls of international sales are somewhat exaggerated, especially between U.S. and Canada. If I were a U.S. resident I might nevertheless avoid international transactions -- why be bothered when the U.S. market is so larger? As a Canadian resident it's difficult to be so picky given Canada is a much smaller market. For myself, I am willing to buy and sell across the U.S. border at least.
For a U.S. resident to ship into Canada all that is really needed is a standard customs declaration or a commercial invoice which form can be obtained online from FedEx or UPS. eBay has some good info for Canadian buyers here that is relevant even if it isn't an eBay transaction.
Selling into the U.S. the biggest problems I have had have been with paperwork. I try to be as helpful as possible for my U.S. buyers by providing (1) a commercial invoice, (2) a "goods returning to the U.S." statement for a U.S.-made product, and (3) an FCC statement for tuners and receivers. But note that the last two items aren't necessary if the cost of the component is less than $200.
I didn't mean to come off as an oaf, but there are some concerns with international shipping.
And since you use PayPal, you should be careful using it for international shipments as they promise the moon and deliver crap for seller protection.
I use FedEx for shipping, but apparently in Canada if you are receiving something FedEx Ground our UPS Ground, there are some substantial "Brokerage" fees on top of the usual customs fees that Canada charges(duties and taxes).
And coincidently, the only problem I have had selling (on ebay) was a computer video card to a guy in Canada!:cryin:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
I have always had good luck with Audiogon, but not with eBay. I always email the other party, true audiophiles are usually a cinch to spot; given half a chance they'll go on and on about their system or the item they want to buy/sell.
A crook doesn't have the same insight, in my experience they can't discuss anything audio, I'm immediately suspicious if the buyer/seller can't explain why he wants to buy or sell a given product. One seller told me he had a brand new unit in the factory carton, that particular item hadn't been manufactured for 12 years, I aborted the transaction.
Also I've had bad luck with "second chance" offers on eBay, watch out for these.
Of course this doesn't help you with a well meaning flake.
If you are determined to make an international purchase use an agent and escrow the funds.
Great advice, herman. I talked with a guy for 45 minutes the other day about some Rega equipment he'd already sold. Audiophiles will go on forever. As a buyer I've always taken the mindset that several hundreds or thousands of my dollars obligates you to at least a few minutes of speach. If not, whatever, there's always someone looking to make a buck.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsticks
Great advice, herman. I talked with a guy for 45 minutes the other day about some Rega equipment he'd already sold. Audiophiles will go on forever. As a buyer I've always taken the mindset that several hundreds or thousands of my dollars obligates you to at least a few minutes of speach. If not, whatever, there's always someone looking to make a buck.
I talked to some dudes in a white van once in a parking lot. They seemed to want to chat about A/V also.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
I talked to some dudes in a white van once in a parking lot. They seemed to want to chat about A/V also.
There are few guarantees in life. If you have the green, buy from your local bricks and mortar store. Then hope they're still open for business if you have a problem later.
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About brokerage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
...
I use FedEx for shipping, but apparently in Canada if you are receiving something FedEx Ground our UPS Ground, there are some substantial "Brokerage" fees on top of the usual customs fees that Canada charges(duties and taxes).
And coincidently, the only problem I have had selling (on ebay) was a computer video card to a guy in Canada!:cryin:
Yes, FedEx and UPS brokerage fees are -- to put it simply -- extortionary. USPS/Canada post are much better. Canada Post charges the Canadian buyer a flat $5 or $8 depending whether its an expedited shippment. The private carrier's brokerage fees vary depending on the value of the item and whether they collect duty; (they always collect Canadian Federal and provincial taxes unless the value is <$20).
My worst experience was with a US buyer on account of paperwork, specifically I didn't know at the time that I ought to include a 'return to U.S.A certificate' so he got charged duty on a US-made Adcom component. I tried very hard to supply the missing documentation belatedly but it didn't work and he got charged. I reimbursed him for the duty and brokerage he paid, (much less than a Canadian would have paid coming US => Canada). This wasn't a payment-related problem at all.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
I have always had good luck with Audiogon, but not with eBay. I always email the other party, true audiophiles are usually a cinch to spot; given half a chance they'll go on and on about their system or the item they want to buy/sell.
Perhaps I'm just charmed, but I've had good luck at both places. Like Feanor, however, I am not a high volume trader. One time I purchased a CD changer from eBay and it arrived DOA. Actually, you could get it to work, but it wasn't consistent. I genuinely tried to fix it - the power switch activated a LONG lever than spanned the depth of the cabinet to a circuit card on the back. If you held it down, it would work. Surely, the seller knew that. But, he took it back and covered shipping expense both ways. I later bought another one for far less - $85 - and it arrived at my door two days after the auction. Works great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
A crook doesn't have the same insight, in my experience they can't discuss anything audio...
My favorite is the "I haven't tried to hook it up, so I don't know if it works" pitch. Sorry, you need to find a buyer who is an imbecile.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
My favorite is the "I haven't tried to hook it up, so I don't know if it works" pitch. Sorry, you need to find a buyer who is an imbecile.
rw
For some defense, some of those sellers may not be A/V enthusiests. They may have picked up some of the equipement at auctions, estate sales, or pawn shops.
Doesn't mean they aren't honest...they might NOT have hooked it up.
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When I called this guy, he knew everything about the Sttafs. He also told me I could call Vince at Totem, they were friends. He said he was selling them to pay for some tube gear he had coming from Japan. On his Audiogon ad, which is still up, he has some other stuff from Japan. His girlfriend is from Japan, I talked to her, she sent me the invoice. Up until yesterday he had audio equipment on craigslist in Manhattan.
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Like I said, there is little to protect you from a well meaning flake. He's probably not a crook, but obviously it's going to take time to pry the equipment loose. Maybe you should call Vince at Totem to complain, perhaps he can get this clown to move forward or refund your money.
Look for him on eBay as well, maybe you can get him on probation with them. Anything to let him know you've exhausted your patience and are going to start fighting back.
If that doesn't work tell the clown you are going to contact the police in his home town and accuse him of theft. Have a receipt ready to fax to the police, since he sent an invoice I assume there's an address, name and phone.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
Like I said, there is little to protect you from a well meaning flake. He's probably not a crook, but obviously it's going to take time to pry the equipment loose. Maybe you should call Vince at Totem to complain, perhaps he can get this clown to move forward or refund your money..
That might work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
Look for him on eBay as well, maybe you can get him on probation with them. Anything to let him know you've exhausted your patience and are going to start fighting back..
This won't work. It's like complaining to BB that you are getting crappy service from Circuit City. What is Ebay going to do about it? If the fraud (alleged) is not being perpetrated on Ebay, they don't give a rats ass about it. Hell, they barely clamp down on fraud on their own network.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
If that doesn't work tell the clown you are going to contact the police in his home town and accuse him of theft. Have a receipt ready to fax to the police, since he sent an invoice I assume there's an address, name and phone.
Even better if the OP initiates a chargeback on his Visa. Local police are FAR to busy to be chasing down real criminals to worry about a non-shipping A/V guy.
Since the OP hasn't exhausted ALL options to get his money back the local police will likely laugh, and hang up.
Call PayPal, Call Visa. Do a chargeback, get money back, start over.
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I have a suggestion for our original post'er: If your seller claims to know people at Totem (and can even name someone highly-placed by name), why not suggest to him that you're prepared to disclose the whole thing to them? Obviously Totem isn't involved as an interested party because the speakers are second-hand, but if the seller really does have cache with the company higher-ups, he probably values it in an intrinsic way and would be loathe to look like a ripoff artist in front of his cool-man "buddies".
Keep us posted. I was certainly of a mind to rip the guy using his audiogon listing, but then at the last second it occurred to me that doing so could cause more harm than good.
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As of right now audiogn considers it settled, I guess because the seller refuses to respond. I have e-mailed the guy again with no response and he, and his girlfriend, dodges my phone calls. I have both phone numbers and their home address. They also have refused to respond to paypal about the dispute. I believe they have around 165 transactions with paypal, so hopefully they can help resolve it. I also will be disputing with my credit card company today. On a good note, I will hopefully be auditioning B&W 683/684, and Paradigm Monitor 9 v5's today. If I don't like those I'll just keep saving until I can find what I want.
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Have you heard any Dynaudio?
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Try to resolve w/ PayPal first. Most credit cards give you 60 days (some 90) to file a dispute.
Here is the tricky part. DO NOT PAY THE PORTION OF YOUR BILL (Visa) THAT YOU INTEND TO DISPUTE!!!!!!!!!!
If you pay that portion of the bill you will lose the dispute!!! That is the law. They figure if you paid it, that you were satisfied with it.
If you dispute, generally the finance charges are waived, and if the dispute is found in your favor, it is wiped off your balance.
Good luck!
On a side note, in the US, if you dial *67 then wait for the dial tone, your call will not register on the recievers end with caller ID. So if they are screening your calls, you might try that, and see if they pickup because they don't know who is calling. Just a thought.
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Why is this not listed in the "Disputes" section of the Audiogon forum? The ad by Audiogon user Kikiny is still up (and still shows "sale pending").
Do you know if Audiogon has a time period before they declare non-delivery? I see you paid him on May 6 so it hasn't quite been 30 days yet. Could Audiogon just be waiting for a specific time limit to expire?
I also see there are 82 disputes regarding sales discussed in the Audiogon forum for that subject and one of them just started May 21 so it is something they certainly look at. Check http://www.audiogon.com/help/disp/drp.html for the start page on their "dispute resolution process" if you haven't done so yet. I know Audiogon can be rather bureaucratic about you following their existing instructions rather than just emailing them.
Finally, get started on the Paypal/credit card end of things. They should quickly refund your money and debit the seller. That should do more than anything to get his attention.
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Yes, his ad is still up. I started a dispute on audiogon. They e-mailed me back saying that since they have not recieved a response thye would consider what I said as "complete and accurate". However, since they have not recieved a response from kikiny, they said it is considered closed. I have started with paypal and just hung up with Visa. They have credited my account and said they will notify me if they need any further info. I have all e-mails, from this guy and feel I have given him plenty of time to respond. He gets what he gets.
Mr. Peabody
I have not heard any Dynaaudio. I will yell you if no one around here carrys them I won't be buying them . My next pair of speakers will be picked up by me.
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Quote:
jimib wrote: "They e-mailed me back saying that since they have not recieved a response thye would consider what I said as "complete and accurate". However, since they have not recieved a response from kikiny, they said it is considered closed."
So, in other words, they agree with you but aren't going to do anything? It would seem the least they would do is take down the offending ad and close Kikiny's account.
Strange. But Audiogon does have reputation of being rather odd that way.
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After all my grief, finally a reprieve of sorts. I went to my local Paradigm dealer and after auditioning several speakers ended up choosing a set of studio 40"s. I prefer to pay cash so I told him I'd be back next week to pay for them. The dealer is knocking off 20% plus throwing in some decent cables and stands. I'm walking out for under $1400.00. New, in box with warranty. I hope these will cure my fix. Any opinions on the 40"s?
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What else is in your system?
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Carver CT7 pre/tuner
Marantz CD5001 CD
Carver TFM 24 amp
I have been looking to upgrade my pre/ and amp in the near future however.
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ya, i never buy on ebay , its just personnal, i found out many good stores and no china crap. My last buy from china was fake chips lost 100 $, i am closing my account very soon
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