Hi-Res Audio Formats on BR & HDDVD

[nightflier]

I think a lot of attention has been focussed on the video qualities of the BR/HDDVD formats. I'm probably not in the majority, but I'm interested in the audio formats that these higher-capacity disks can support. I've read several articles claiming how much better Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD are than their DD/DTS predecessors. Some even claim that these formats are superior to SACD Surround.

Now this peaked my interest. I have been a fan of SACD for some time and in my experience it has been the best sound format that I have ever heard within my budget, (although I still have a penchant for analog, but that is a separate discussion). When comparing DD/DTS music DVDs to SACD music, I still sense a superiority in the SACD format. So I have a bunch of questions and was hoping more knowledgeable people here could help answer them:

1. Are the 5.1 analog outputs the only way to get True-HD and DTS-HD? It seems silly, but I thought I read in several places that HDMI currently does not support these formats.

2. If so, how does the resolution of True-HD and DTS-HD compare to SACD?

3. What is the reason for the supposed superiority of True-HD and DTS-HD in surround sound over SACD?

4. Are there any plans to make True-HD and DTS-HD music-only disks? Right now, the only way to get HiRes surround is through concert disks.

5. Will HDDVD's capacity limitation be a problem for trying to fit True-HD and DTS-HD on a disk? While it does have higher capacity, will Blu-Ray have capacity problems as well?

6. While it is still young technology, it does seem that most BR & HDDVD players are more of the value-engineered and competitively priced variety. Any plans for HiFi manufacturers to offer something higher-grade?

7. Besides support for True-HD and DTS-HD, are there any other sound improvements in the HDMI 1.3 spec?

8. It seems that True-HD and DTS-HD are pretty much still 5.1 formats, especially for music. So how are the rear channels in a 7.1 system handled through True-HD and DTS-HD?

9. Many of my SACD titles are actually 5.0, not 5.1, forcing me to use my speakers in full range mode or using my pre/pro to force a crossover (which I am certain is detrimental to the sound reproduction). Do True-HD and DTS-HD soundtracks do a better job of integrating the subwoofer since they are primarily movie-focussed sound formats?

10. I noticed some BR/HDDVD players support DVD-A, but why is there no support for SACD, even from Sony?

Obviously, you can read from my questions and my other posts that I have not bought into either format. Of course I'm waiting to see which format will win out, and this is not at all clear to me right now. But perhaps a more important factor for me is that I want a player from a manufacturer that has put some engineering into getting the best sound out of the formats. I just don't feel that Sony/Toshiba/Panasonic are up to the task especially since they are trying so desperately to undercut each other's business and this means cost-cutting.

[PeruvianSkies]

I am guessing it won't be long before the Little Green Knight that Couldn't will be here to comment on this....

[kelsci]

Nightflier, the only thing I have to say about the audio on these two formats is that Mr. Bungle from PeeWee Herman was at work on the audio design of these machines.
I think that Dolby True-HD has some relationship with DVD-Audio. BD can output the PCM tracks that are on many BD discs at least through analog outputs if that machine has them. I think that track might also be outputted with HDMI 1.2 into a receiver. I have not read any articles talking about SACD and BD-HD-DVD machines and a realtionship there at this time.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

1. Are the 5.1 analog outputs the only way to get True-HD and DTS-HD? It seems silly, but I thought I read in several places that HDMI currently does not support these formats.

This is false. Using the 5.1 analog outputs forces the audio to go through one conversion from D/A in the players to the receiver, go back to digital for bass management,delay, and levels, and then back to analog to your amps. That is alot of analog and digital conversion, and opens up the chance for dropped bits and digital errors. However the benefit with this connection is that it is backwards compatible with pre HDMI receivers.

HDMI 1.3 will pass all digital audio formats in existance all in its native bitstream. .

2. If so, how does the resolution of True-HD and DTS-HD compare to SACD?

This is impossible to tell objectively since no direct double blind comparisons have ever been conducted. Since SACD is handled and processed so differently than the PCM based TruHD and DTS HD, they cannot sound exactly alike. There will always be some subtle differences even if the same master tape is used to encode them both. In my experience I have found that to my ears SACD sounds much closer to the live mike feed that PCM does. I am always aware I am hearing digital sound, VERY good digital sound when talking about 24/96khz. However SACD sounds much more like analog and very non fatiguing when the bitstream stays in the DSD mode thoughout the entire chain(no PCM conversion)

3. What is the reason for the supposed superiority of True-HD and DTS-HD in surround sound over SACD?

If anything its efficiency. Both TrueHD and DTS HD use variable bitrates that allows the audio to be transported in a pipeline that expands and contracts as bits are required to maintain losslessness and transparency. SACD uses a constant bitrate which means the pipeline has to be consistantly the same size moment by moment, much like LPCM (or PCM) audio.

4. Are there any plans to make True-HD and DTS-HD music-only disks? Right now, the only way to get HiRes surround is through concert disks.

At CES Dolby was playing concert recordings at 24/96khz encoded in Dolby TrueHD. It sounded VERY good. I heard DTS HD master audio recordings of the Firebird Suite recorded at 24/96khz through 7.1 channels at a Dts Demo in New York not to long ago. That was a wow event to say the least.

I have not heard of anyone making any commitment to either format at this time. Although I know Dts Entertainment is going to get knee deep in this if HD DVD or Bluray gets a broader market share.

5. Will HDDVD's capacity limitation be a problem for trying to fit True-HD and DTS-HD on a disk? While it does have higher capacity, will Blu-Ray have capacity problems as well?

I do not think HD DVD has a problem with including the lossless formats capacity wise as long as the movie is not too long. The problem with HD DVD is bandwidth and capacity together. HD DVD can never use uncompressed PCM because of space and bandwidth problems when video is in the pipeline. To counter that HD DVD basically uses True-HD and VC-1 because this is the most efficient coupling of audio and video codecs. However, when you start using PIP, mutliple language soundtracks, and interactive features in the mix even these tools have to be compromised because of bandwidth issues. You either have to give up the True-HD lossless audio, or you have to compress the video more aggresively. The prime example of this happening is the upcoming Transformers HD DVD and Shriek the Third. There is going to be so many interactive features running along with the movie, there was not enough bandwidth for a True-HD soundtrack.

Bluray has a much larger moment to moment pipeline. It has a 40mbps constant video rate, with peaks to 48mbps. It has an overall 54mbps bitrate. If you kept your video peaks below 40mbps(way beyond what HD DVD can do), you could have 5.1 uncompressed PCM track at 24/48khz, a 24/48khz Dolby True-HD soundtrack, and Dolby digital at 640kbps in two languages, and extras all going in the pipeline at once. Or they could use 4 TrueHD bitstreams in different languages, and a couple of 640kbps other language as well at the same time. Great for an all region release. No disc capacity or bandwidth problems which is very important for the future growth of the format.

6. While it is still young technology, it does seem that most BR & HDDVD players are more of the value-engineered and competitively priced variety. Any plans for HiFi manufacturers to offer something higher-grade?

Pioneer and Sony have plans for a higher grade upscale Bluray player later this year, or early next. Onyko also has said it will release a high end HD DVD player. It has not said when though.

7. Besides support for True-HD and DTS-HD, are there any other sound improvements in the HDMI 1.3 spec?

Just the ability to pass DVD-A, SACD, and 8 channel uncompressed audio at up to 24/192khz.

8. It seems that True-HD and DTS-HD are pretty much still 5.1 formats, especially for music. So how are the rear channels in a 7.1 system handled through True-HD and DTS-HD?

This is still a puzzle, as no standard have been set. However there have been a few 7.1 soundtracks on bluray that has used the surrounds in this fashion

Side left wall
Rear left wall
Side right wall
Rear right wall

What has also been proposed is this configuration

Left surround
Center rear surround
Right surround
Overhead

9. Many of my SACD titles are actually 5.0, not 5.1, forcing me to use my speakers in full range mode or using my pre/pro to force a crossover (which I am certain is detrimental to the sound reproduction). Do True-HD and DTS-HD soundtracks do a better job of integrating the subwoofer since they are primarily movie-focussed sound formats?

Most definately. As a film mixer I have noticed that overall sound levels in the mains and bass frequency and level have gotten so loud, you almost cannot produce a soundtrack without an LFE track.

10. I noticed some BR/HDDVD players support DVD-A, but why is there no support for SACD, even from Sony?

Actually the PS3 supports SACD. I know of no standalone that does. Perphaps Sony high end bluray player will support it, I just don't know that one.

Obviously, you can read from my questions and my other posts that I have not bought into either format. Of course I'm waiting to see which format will win out, and this is not at all clear to me right now. But perhaps a more important factor for me is that I want a player from a manufacturer that has put some engineering into getting the best sound out of the formats. I just don't feel that Sony/Toshiba/Panasonic are up to the task especially since they are trying so desperately to undercut each other's business and this means cost-cutting.

I would not rule Sony nor Pioneer's high end bluray players. These players will have chipsets that support the most high end of video and audio solutions. Also Onkyo's HD DVD player sounds very promising as well. They have just not annouced a release time on this player. Toshiba is in a hard place. Their selling point to their exclusive studios is cheap price of the players. It would be very hard to justify a high end piece and accomplish the selling point they promised.

I am not endorsing either format, just presenting the facts.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am guessing it won't be long before the Little Green Knight that Couldn't will be here to comment on this....

Is it really that difficult for you to just try and answer nighflier questions instead of dragging attitutes from another part of the board over here? Can you answer even one of his questions just so you can stay on topic? Geeze.....

[kexodusc]

Is it really that difficult for you to just try and answer nighflier questions instead of dragging attitutes from another part of the board over here? Can you answer even one of his questions just so you can stay on topic? Geeze.....

I think these little side posts of his are rather amusing. He sort of hovers around poor Nightflier like a lost dog looking for a friend...

[PeruvianSkies]

I think these little side posts of his are rather amusing. He sort of hovers around poor Nightflier like a lost dog looking for a friend...

I would prefer to have no friends than have you as my friend... Not that I need any friends on here anyway, I have plenty of true friends in real life.

[L.J.]

Excellent post Sir T. Thanks for taking the time.

PSky, I agree with Sir T on not draggin' the nonsense from one thread to another. Many new members here do not fully understand all this (I'm one of them) and it's difficult to go through all the crap to get some good info. Please contribute to the thread or take the crap somewhere else.

[kexodusc]

I would prefer to have no friends than have you as my friend... Not that I need any friends on here anyway, I have plenty of true friends in real life.

You are pretty special.

[PeruvianSkies]

Excellent post Sir T. Thanks for taking the time.

PSky, I agree with Sir T on not draggin' the nonsense from one thread to another. Many new members here do not fully understand all this (I'm one of them) and it's difficult to go through all the crap to get some good info. Please contribute to the thread or take the crap somewhere else.

All that I said was "prepare yourself" and I was talking to Nightflier with my comment (not anyone else) about a Green Knight coming here and moments later...Sir T arrived and did exactly what I said. I never used anything insulting and I didn't bring (as Sir T called it) "attitutes" with me.

So how about you and Kex get over it. Both of you are contributing nothing in these cases...all you can say is something against me for commenting towards anther person.

[PeruvianSkies]

You are pretty special.

It's interesting to think how at one time I considered you to be one of the more reputable members of this site by contributing productive things to this site, now all you can do is attack me for disagreeing with other members.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

All that I said was "prepare yourself" and I was talking to Nightflier with my comment (not anyone else) about a Green Knight coming here and moments later...Sir T arrived and did exactly what I said. I never used anything insulting and I didn't bring (as Sir T called it) "attitutes" with me.

So how about you and Kex get over it. Both of you are contributing nothing in these cases...all you can say is something against me for commenting towards anther person.

You can end all of this by NOT commenting on the person, and commenting on the OP's questions. Just that simple

[kexodusc]

It's interesting to think how at one time I considered you to be one of the more reputable members of this site by contributing productive things to this site, now all you can do is attack me for disagreeing with other members.

I'm not attacking you for disagreeing with other members...I was commenting on your peculiar, pre-emptive strike on Sir T in this thread.
Tell ya what, I'll leave you alone if you stop with the sarcasm and rhetoric about whichever members you decide to have a beef with.

[pixelthis]

Is it really that difficult for you to just try and answer nighflier questions instead of dragging attitutes from another part of the board over here? Can you answer even one of his questions just so you can stay on topic? Geeze.....

As long as hes' jacking you hes' leaving ME alone.
THANKS

[pixelthis]

I would prefer to have no friends than have you as my friend... Not that I need any friends on here anyway, I have plenty of true friends in real life.

This isn't REAL LIFE???

[kelsci]

Good to hear from you again your Lordship. I actually saved your reply on this matter in an e-mail file for possible future reference. The EX-ES question on the sixth and seven channels again shows the MR BUNGLE attitude with BD-HD-DVD formats by not thinking about how to do this when the format was released for sale.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Good to hear from you again your Lordship. I actually saved your reply on this matter in an e-mail file for possible future reference. The EX-ES question on the sixth and seven channels again shows the MR BUNGLE attitude with BD-HD-DVD formats by not thinking about how to do this when the format was released for sale.

Actually both formats were able to do 8 channels of PCM audio right out of the box. So there was never a need for a EX/ES solution for it. The only reason the ES/EX issue existed on DVD, was because of the cap of 5.1 for Dolby, and 6.1 for Dts.

[dean_martin]

Pioneer and Sony have plans for a higher grade upscale Bluray player later this year, or early next. Onyko also has said it will release a high end HD DVD player. It has not said when though.

Based on an interview with one of the founders of ARCAM in Stereophile earlier this year, it seemed like ARCAM was favoring HD-DVD. (I posted a link in the other thread.) Have manufacturers like Denon and Marantz that are known for excellent video (and audio) performance announced any plans to launch players that support either format?

[kexodusc]

Have manufacturers like Denon and Marantz that are known for excellent video (and audio) performance announced any plans to launch players that support either format?

Well yeah, rumour has it Sony is firmly behind Blu-Ray.

[L.J.]

Based on an interview with one of the founders of ARCAM in Stereophile earlier this year, it seemed like ARCAM was favoring HD-DVD. (I posted a link in the other thread.) Have manufacturers like Denon and Marantz that are known for excellent video (and audio) performance announced any plans to launch players that support either format?

Denon has a couple a BR players coming out. Someone posted a news release somewhere around here. I think the prices were like $2k or something like that. Oouch!

[dean_martin]

Denon has a couple a BR players coming out. Someone posted a news release somewhere around here. I think the prices were like $2k or something like that. Oouch!

Thanks, L.J. I missed that post, I guess. If it was in that thread on the news and rumors board, I must confess that I couldn't make it through the whole thing.

[dean_martin]

Well yeah, rumour has it Sony is firmly behind Blu-Ray.

Reh...reeeeeeaalllllyyyy?

[L.J.]

Thanks, L.J. I missed that post, I guess. If it was in that thread on the news and rumors board, I must confess that I couldn't make it through the whole thing.

Here's a link

http://www.listenup.com/content/part...dge.aug.07.php

Kinda interesting to see a "BR Transport". I was under the impression that most BR will be advanced authored, requiring decoding to be done in the player.

[Groundbeef]

What is the difference between HDMI, and TOSLINK as far as audio? When I say Toslink, I am meaning optical (just so I'm clear, I think Toslink is optical).

Does optical carry all the available audio? Or is it limited to 5.1 or higher?

Thanks.

[L.J.]

What is the difference between HDMI, and TOSLINK as far as audio? When I say Toslink, I am meaning optical (just so I'm clear, I think Toslink is optical).

Does optical carry all the available audio? Or is it limited to 5.1 or higher?

Thanks.

SPDIF (Coaxial, Optical)
- Provides two channel lossless uncompressed PCM audio.
- Provides all pre-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats (5.1/6.1).

HDMI 1.1
- Provides up to 8 (7.1) channels of lossless uncompressed PCM audio.
- Provides all pre-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats (5.1/6.1).
- Provides DVD-Audio streaming as PCM.

HDMI 1.2
- Adds SACD streaming as proprietary DSD format.

HDMI 1.3
- Adds up to 8 (7.1) channels of post-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats (TrueHD, etc.).



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