Has the changes in popular music has an effect in how we buy audio equipment today?

[GMichael]

Electronic World reprint , George L. Augspurger Technical advisor for James L. Lansing speaker Corp. " To achieve maximum stereo effect it is suggested that the distance between stereo speakers should be no less than twelve feet , . therefor achieving maximum stereo imaging" . "This will allow the operation of various types of devices used professionally and in homes. "

Mr. Augspurger was referring to JBL's Horn loaded speaker systems. Which at the time was some of the finest speaker systems in the world.
The JBL Hartsfield was pictured on the front page of life magazine.
Mr. Augspurger was a noted engineer and audio scientist of his era.

You may find Hartsfields on Ebay since they weight in at about 280 lbs each the transportation cost alone is very expensive.
12 feet was my suggestion , if you disagree , that is your right , why make an issue of it.
At the time some audio engineers suggested 8 feet , it all depends on the type of speaker system used. It was only a suggestion.

Taken out of context. 12 feet may be the perfect distance apart for the room he was in and his seating position. To believe that 12 feet is the universal distance for all optimum listening, regardless of setting, is pure ignorance. You may have quoted the words, but you missed their meaning. Please stop quoting what you clearly do not understand.

[Rich-n-Texas]

As luck would have it, when my new room layout is finished, my mains and surrounds will be 8' 2" apart. I better see big gains in imaging when I'm done.

[GMichael]

As luck would have it, when my new room layout is finished, my mains and surrounds will be 8' 2" apart. I better see big gains in imaging when I'm done.

Can't you read? It's 12 feet or nothing.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Welp, then one speaker will just have to stay on the porch I rekon. I think imaging will suffer though won't it?

[JohnMichael]

Taken out of context. 12 feet may be the perfect distance apart for the room he was in and his seating position. To believe that 12 feet is the universal distance for all optimum listening, regardless of setting, is pure ignorance. You may have quoted the words, but you missed their meaning. Please stop quoting what you clearly do not understand.

GMichael this is exactly what I think everyone has been trying to get accross to Melman. You stated it well. You got a greenie for this one.

[markw]

Electronic World reprint , George L. Augspurger Technical advisor for James L. Lansing speaker Corp. " To achieve maximum stereo effect it is suggested that the distance between stereo speakers should be no less than twelve feet , . therefor achieving maximum stereo imaging" . "This will allow the operation of various types of devices used professionally and in homes. "

Mr. Augspurger was referring to JBL's Horn loaded speaker systems. Which at the time was some of the finest speaker systems in the world.
The JBL Hartsfield was pictured on the front page of life magazine.
Mr. Augspurger was a noted engineer and audio scientist of his era.

You may find Hartsfields on Ebay since they weight in at about 280 lbs each the transportation cost alone is very expensive.

He wasn't and your answer was totally bogus. Now you're trying to justify it?

...and now you imply that we're beneath owning them ? Sheesh, melmen, give it a rest.

12 feet was my suggestion , if you disagree , that is your right , why make an issue of it.

Yeah, I disagree with you trying to justify an answer to one particular situation as a one size fits all answer to all applications like you did here.

At the time some audio engineers suggested 8 feet , it all depends on the type of speaker system used. It was only a suggestion.

No, it was a proclamation, not a suggestion.

I suggest you bone up on some speaker placement guidelines that have been set forth since JFK was president before spewing more verbal diarrhea here.

You really are too much of a pompous arsehole to admit you blew it big time, aren't you?

[Rich-n-Texas]

GM gotta greenie?!?!?! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

He's gotta be out of the top ten by now, right?

[Groundbeef]

Can't you read? It's 12 feet or nothing.

What foot standard are we talking? What if Rich's 12 feet are smaller than Melvin's 12 feet? And isn't that a little morbid. Where does one get 12 feet for measurement? The morgue?

I can just imagine that conversation:

RT: I need 12 feet to separate my speakers.

Morgue worker: Sorry bub, I only got's 7 feet and 1 peg leg.

RT: I really need 12 feet. What else you got?

Morgue worker: Well, maybe you can use some hands. 2 hands just about equal 1 foot.

RT. Ok, I'll take the 7 feet, 9 hands, and the peg leg. I'll use that to push the speakers into position.

Morgue worker: Just bring them back when your done. People dont like relatives to be buried without feet. It's unsightly.

[GMichael]

Welp, then one speaker will just have to stay on the porch I rekon. I think imaging will suffer though won't it?

Nope. Twelve is the magic number. Anything else is a com-pro-mise.

[GMichael]

GMichael this is exactly what I think everyone has been trying to get accross to Melman. You stated it well. You got a greenie for this one.

OH NO! Now I'm in the rough. CADY! Bring me my pitching wedge!

[GMichael]

What foot standard are we talking? What if Rich's 12 feet are smaller than Melvin's 12 feet? And isn't that a little morbid. Where does one get 12 feet for measurement? The morgue?

I can just imagine that conversation:

RT: I need 12 feet to separate my speakers.

Morgue worker: Sorry bub, I only got's 7 feet and 1 peg leg.

RT: I really need 12 feet. What else you got?

Morgue worker: Well, maybe you can use some hands. 2 hands just about equal 1 foot.

RT. Ok, I'll take the 7 feet, 9 hands, and the peg leg. I'll use that to push the speakers into position.

Morgue worker: Just bring them back when your done. People dont like relatives to be buried without feet. It's unsightly.

Funny stuff. Greenies to ya.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Funny stuff. Greenies to ya.

I've been demoted haven't I?

[melvin walker]

I'm gonna agree with Melvin on this one. I had my speakers 11'4" apart, and it was awful. I moved them back 8" and now, its like I have new equipment.

Who would have thought 8" would be such a big deal?

What must be remembered is that in the early days of audio , audiophiles used huge Bass reflex , front and rear loaded horns , and very large infinite baffle speakers enclosures. Since only one was needed most homes could accommodate them. With the introduction of stereo it spelled the end to these large speakers .

Horns were very expensive to build and needed two corners. Horns used the walls and ceiling for the mouth of the horn. Base reflex's were also large , the bigger the cabinet the better the base. Infinite Baffles could be installed in a garage using the entire garage as the enclosure. Example the Concert Grand used four 12inch base , two eight inch midrange and eight cone tweeters., the cabinet was 5 feet high with weight close to 300 pounds.
You needed two for stereo.

Where speakers of this size was placed was critical. There was a case in St.Louis in which the Bozak rep. using a Bozak system was able to crack his houses concrete foundation with bass so low. His system was featured in Stereo Review magazine.
Were these speaker systems better than today's speaker systems , no but you will have to spend a lot of money to better them.

[GMichael]

I've been demoted haven't I?

Nope. But I still can't fire in your direction.

[Groundbeef]

What must be remembered is that in the early days of audio , audiophiles used huge Bass reflex , front and rear loaded horns , and very large infinite baffle speakers enclosures. Since only one was needed most homes could accommodate them. With the introduction of stereo it spelled the end to these large speakers .

Horns were very expensive to build and needed two corners. Horns used the walls and ceiling for the mouth of the horn. Base reflex's were also large , the bigger the cabinet the better the base. Infinite Baffles could be installed in a garage using the entire garage as the enclosure. Example the Concert Grand used four 12inch base , two eight inch midrange and eight cone tweeters., the cabinet was 5 feet high with weight close to 300 pounds.
You needed two for stereo.

Where speakers of this size was placed was critical. There was a case in St.Louis in which the Bozak rep. using a Bozak system was able to crack his houses concrete foundation with bass so low. His system was featured in Stereo Review magazine.
Were these speaker systems better than today's speaker systems , no but you will have to spend a lot of money to better them.

Yeah, but now Bose has those little speakers. Who needs a 300lb elephant in your living room when you can fill an auditorium with 2 speakers the size of a lb of butter?

Plus you get all the prestige of owning equipment scientifically designed to separate you from your money.

BTW Melvin, did you remeber to return your 12 feet?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Melvin's got a red chicklett!!! Little shameless behavior I'd say.

[markw]

What must be remembered is that in the early days of audio , audiophiles used huge Bass reflex , front and rear loaded horns , and very large infinite baffle speakers enclosures. Since only one was needed most homes could accommodate them. With the introduction of stereo it spelled the end to these large speakers .

Horns were very expensive to build and needed two corners. Horns used the walls and ceiling for the mouth of the horn. Base reflex's were also large , the bigger the cabinet the better the base. Infinite Baffles could be installed in a garage using the entire garage as the enclosure. Example the Concert Grand used four 12inch base , two eight inch midrange and eight cone tweeters., the cabinet was 5 feet high with weight close to 300 pounds.
You needed two for stereo.

Where speakers of this size was placed was critical. There was a case in St.Louis in which the Bozak rep. using a Bozak system was able to crack his houses concrete foundation with bass so low. His system was featured in Stereo Review magazine.
Were these speaker systems better than today's speaker systems , no but you will have to spend a lot of money to better them.

Did that 12 foot rule apply to mono systems, too?

Unless otherwise specified, we must assume that when a question is being asked here, it pertains to what's currently available, not what you remember from the days you really had hearing to justify a hi-fi system.

Your historical (hysterical?) perspective may contain nuggets of wisdom that was applicable fifty years ago to equipment made then, there have been tremendous changes (and improvements) in speaker design since then. FWIW, we've even gone beyond that new-fangled "stereo" into 6, 7 and more channels.


I suggest you google the "cardas method" if you want a little primer on speaker placement

We don't cure diseases by puttilng leeches on people anymoer, either.

[mlsstl]

It would be interesting to see what qualifiers Mr. Augspurger attached to his comments regarding the 12 feet of left/right separation. (Or, for that matter, the 8 feet recommended by others.) I would suspect if asked, he would state that it is more important to understand the theory involved than to have memorized static numbers.

Stereo imaging is heavily dependent on room size and listening position. In a smaller room one would be at risk of creating a hole in the middle of the sonic image. In a very large room, where the the listening seats may be further back, 12 feet might not be enough.

Years ago when I still did some professional sound work I avoided arbitrary rules and distances like that. It wasn't really possible to determine the setup dimensions until you saw the room in question.

(Consider the issue of 12 feet between the left and right speaker of a headphone and one sees how quickly one gets a wedgie in their knickers with fixed dictums.)

A more useful concept for speaker placement is the Blumlein setup which allows for distances to vary with the specifics of the room. Blumlein even gets brownie points for having invented stereo!

[GMichael]

We don't cure diseases by puttilng leeches on people anymoer, either.

What about drilling? My wife has a headache. Shouldn't I drill, to let the evil spirits out?

[SlumpBuster]

I make an issue of it Mel because that is what you said you wanted to do. You said "Don't attack me. Lets discuss audio." Well, placement of speakers is discussing audio. You gave advice that was not stellar, after claiming you have enough experience to be authoritative. Maybe you are authoritative on horn loaded corner speakers, but Paradigm 20s are not that. They are small 2 way monitors with 5 1/2" woofers. The Paradigms will image like crazy, but I doubt most users will be spacing them 12 feet apart and thereby seating themselves 12 feet back.

The foundation of your assesment/opinion/advice was weak as it was based on an entirely different beast. It was an important disclosure.

[markw]

What about drilling? My wife has a headache. Shouldn't I drill, to let the evil spirits out?

That depends on where you're drilling, and what you're drilling with.

(can I say that here?)

[GMichael]

That depends on where you're drilling, and what you're drilling with.

(can I say that here?)

Good catch.
I must be slipping.

[JohnMichael]

If we are bored talking about Melvin and audio we can talk about Tom Cruise and scientology.

[Groundbeef]

If we are bored talking about Melvin and audio we can talk about Tom Cruise and scientology.

Why? Does he use a colostomy bag as well?

And do aliens keep their speakers 12' apart, or has their superior technology allowed them to move them to 11' apart?

[GMichael]

Why? Does he use a colostomy bag as well?

And do aliens keep their speakers 12' apart, or has their superior technology allowed them to move them to 11' apart?

Speakers do not make any sound in a vacuum. (unless the bag is full)