getting "better" SQ

I'm curious to know what you guys think of these...:
http://www.dakiom.com/index.htm

never heard of them.

According to their own web site , these devices are designed to fix unstable feedback loops from improperly designed amplifiers.

Me, I'd get a properly designed amplifier:)

hehe thanks. Me too...

I tried them for awhile in two different systems. Although they initially seemed to improve the bass response, I ultimately felt that they had a negative effect on transparency, so I sold them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by audio amateur

I'm curious to know what you guys think of these...:
http://www.dakiom.com/index.htm

never heard of them.

---

...of tweaky stuff that unscrews my cork...

Negative feedback, the process of feeding a part of the flip-flop of the output into the input, in an effort to lower distortion, is designed into an amplifier and it happens within the amplifier's circuit path...Inside...not outside.

How can any external device have any effect on something that is a part of the closed-loop of the signal path within the amplifier itself?...

Can it effect the sound? Yes, but so can aftermarket wires with terminating networks. Is it better? More accurate? Entirely subjective?

jimHJJ(...straight wire with gain?...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hermanv

According to their own web site , these devices are designed to fix unstable feedback loops from improperly designed amplifiers.

Me, I'd get a properly designed amplifier:)

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Sounds suspiciously like a Zoebel network to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

Negative feedback, the process of feeding a part of the flip-flop of the output into the input, in an effort to lower distortion, is designed into an amplifier and it happens within the amplifier's circuit path...Inside...not outside.

How can any external device have any effect on something that is a part of the closed-loop of the signal path within the amplifier itself?...
jimHJJ(...straight wire with gain?...)

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Without supporting these devices in any way, its worth pointing out that the summing node for the internal feedback loop of many amplifiers is the input base or grid of the first stage. So you bet an external reactance applied to this same circuit node could effect the loop behavior.

This helps explain parts of "system synergy" the fact that certain components or cables may work better or have a larger effect with some equipment than with other equipment

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hermanv

Without supporting these devices in any way, its worth pointing out that the summing node for the internal feedback loop of many amplifiers is the input base or grid of the first stage. So you bet an external reactance applied to this same circuit node could effect the loop behavior.

This helps explain parts of "system synergy" the fact that certain components or cables may work better or have a larger effect with some equipment than with other equipment

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...not buyin' it...these thingies are connected to the power amp's speaker outputs and while their effect may be audible, I can't see how they would have any effect on the internal feedback loops which are located far upstream (and fairly isolated) from these devices and their connection point.

Add to that, that each amp's design tend to have differing amounts of feedback and these things seem to be a one-size-fits-all affair, not really optimized to reflect such differences.

jimHJJ(...as markw suggested Zobel network anyone?...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

...not buyin' it...these thingies are connected to the power amp's speaker outputs and while their effect may be audible, I can't see how they would have any effect on the internal feedback loops which are located far upstream (and fairly isolated) from these devices and their connection point.

Add to that, that each amp's design tend to have differing amounts of feedback and these things seem to be a one-size-fits-all affair, not really optimized to reflect such differences.

jimHJJ(...as markw suggested Zobel network anyone?...)

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In most designs, the output stage of an amplifier is the most in need of feedback correction so the signal from the last stage is usually included in the feedback mix. Feedback is a broad term, global feedback normally means from the last point on the output to the first point in the input, it is both the best way to apply feedback and worst way because it is easy to introduce unplanned results an thereby get it wrong (read up on slewing induced distrortion and transient induced distortion).

So global feedback is traditionally taken from the output signal as far downstream as possible and then applied to the input stage as far upstream as possible. This means the actual speaker leads in the case of a power amplifier. In the case of a tube amp, picking feedback from the actual speaker leads will include the output transformer inside the feedback loop, in the case of a transistor amp the signal from this point is often used for both feedback and amplifier output stage protection. Putting a complex reactance (capacitor and inductor network?) to ground at this point can change the amplifier feedback or protection signal.

Again, I think the concept is probably a bad idea. Designers may have made any number of decisions about how to shape the feedback signal (that signal is usually shaped by some kind of network) and second guessing the designer seems unwise.

If the design is poorly executed so that these things help, I stand by my original comment - buy an amplifier that is not poorly executed.

As to Zobel networks, all of them have a corner frequency, traditionally that corner is the frequency at which the voice coil inductance starts to significantly increase a given driver's impedance. Zobel networks allow previous crossover stages to work into a fixed load (4 or 8 ohms for example). Putting a Zobel ahead of the crossover accomplishes little,. Plus, is that Zobel designed for the tweeter, the mid range or the woofer? A single compromise network is very unlikely to actually work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hermanv

Putting a Zobel ahead of the crossover accomplishes little,. Plus, is that Zobel designed for the tweeter, the mid range or the woofer? A single compromise network is very unlikely to actually work.

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Neither. It's designed in order to increase the inductance that the amp's output stage sees in order to minimize any oscillations that can arise from a poorly designed amplifier, or speaker cables with dangerously low inductance, which seem to be all the rage lately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by markw

Neither. It's designed in order to increase the inductance that the amp's output stage sees in order to minimize any oscillations that can arise from a poorly designed amplifier, or speaker cables with dangerously low inductance, which seem to be all the rage lately.

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1. A Zobel series R - C network will decrease not increase the impedance (inductance).
2. In any event, this is incorrect, that is not the main purpose of a Zobel. A Zobel network is part of a speaker crossover design, not part of an amplifier design.
3. Short speaker cables also have low inductance. Nothing dangerous about using short cables to your speakers, low inductance is not dangerous.

If your amp becomes unstable with zero length speaker cables it is a badly designed amp, think hard about getting a better one. Good speaker cables attempt to mimic no cable, that is an ideal speaker cable would look like a cable of zero length so it would have zero Ohms, zero picoFarads and zero microHenries.

What does a Zobel accomplish? Say you have a midrange and you decided to roll it off at 3KHz. Using a first order network an 8 Ohm driver would need 425uH of series inductance to acheive that result. If the driver voice coil inductance is not taken into account, the roll off above 3 KHz will not be 6 dB per octave, it will be less because the voice coil inductance causes the nominal 8 speaker impedance to rise at frequencies somewhere above mid band.

However markw is partially correct that it will also somewhat decrease the amplifer load impedance, the problem is that most multi-way speaker crossovers have lots of inductors, mostly much larger in value than the voice coil inductance. Look at any typical speaker impedance vs frequency plot, mostly those positive peaks in impedance are inductive by nature.

"speaker cables with dangerously low inductance"

Oh please!!!!

Smack yourself around a little and wake up!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

"speaker cables with dangerously low inductance"

Oh please!!!!

Smack yourself around a little and wake up!!!

---

This can be deadly for some high strung (i.e. poorly designed) amplifier designs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naim_Audio

"The company's pre- and power- amplifiers, especially, are carefully matched electrically and are designed to be used together. Dire warnings attach to experimentation with other manufacturers components, particularly in the case for some "high-end" loudspeaker cables, whose inductance/capacitance characteristics present unstable loads to the high-current devices used inside Naim power amplifiers — these have been documented to cause damage to same (not covered by warranty)."

We ran into this problem with a client in the early 80's. Plain zip cord worked fine but his expensive botique cables brought this Niam amp to it's smoking knees. ...all because of low inductance, high capacitance cables.

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

If Naim really weaseled out of their warranty claiming that speaker wire destroyed their amp... that's absolutely disgusting, your client was a fool for buying it, and you obviously bought it too.

If it's not true... Naim should sue you for slander.


"We ran into this problem with a client in the early 80's. Plain zip cord worked fine but his expensive botique cables brought this Niam amp to it's smoking knees"

Would someone who sold "Naim" know how to spell it?... LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

If Niam really weaseled out of their warranty claiming that speaker wire destroyed their amp... that's absolutely disgusting, your client was a fool for buying it, and you obviously bought it too.

If it's not true... Niam should sue you for slander.

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I didn't lose any money on he deal. In fact, we got paid quite well for solving it.

Gee, it almost sounds like you're a bit angry that I was able to back up my claim. Why should I be sued. Where did I mention any names? But, anyhow, to some of us that were around at that time this story is common knowledge.

You didn't back up anything. The garbage on the web is just that.

You really didn't mention any names... You said you witnessed "Niam" practicing shady business. Although, you implied "Naim" by your link.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

You didn't back up anything. The garbage on the web is just that.

You really didn't mention any names... You said "Niam" practiced shady business. Although, you implied "Naim" by your link.

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Well, obviously my first hand experience isn't enough to convince you but that''s fine. I'm used to being doubted but that doesn't alter the truth.

I could suggest you visit a certain cable forum at another unnamed audio site where meds are perscribed for the inmates on a regular basis, but I doubt it would do any good. You wouldn't believe then, either. Even crazy people speak some truth.

Now, I've dropped more than enough hints that you should be able to discern the site I'm refering to if you are interested enough to investigate further on your own.

TTFN

Your "first hand experience" is obviously BS because you couldn't even spell "Naim".

I don't care if 1 or 100 people tell me something that's so obviously false to anyone with some real knowledge... I'm still not buying it!!!... LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

Your "first hand experience" is obviously BS because you couldn't even spell "Naim".

I don't care if 1 or 100 people tell me something that's so obviously false to anyone with some real knowledge... I'm still not buying it!!!... LOL

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...and I'm not selling anything!

Well now, I guess since I transposed a few letters I'm out of the running , eh?

Tsk... tsk.. .you know what they say about posters who stoop to playing spell check, don't you?

My reputation as an objectivist here speaks for itself and, if I have the noive to come out and say that a wire can make a difference, you can be dang sure I've experienced it.

"My reputation as an objectivist here speaks for itself and, if I have the noive to come out and say that a wire can make a difference, you can be dang sure I've experienced it"

I absolutely agree that wires networks can sound different. I absolutely, strongly, and violently disagree that using the wrong freaking speaker wire will damage an amplifier. It bothers me when such crap is spread around on the internet. It could be used to steal someone's money.


"Well now, I guess since I transposed a few letters I'm out of the running , eh?"

When the letters are transposed in a brand name you're supposedly very familiar with... Yes, it is VERY likely that you are lying.



"Tsk... tsk.. .you know what they say about posters who stoop to playing spell check, don't you?"

Uh... No I don't... If you had any balls, I suppose you'd tell me...


"Tsk... tsk.. ."

Tsk... tsk.. . Are you freaking serious... Tsk... tsk??? Are you like the world's biggest geek or something???!!!

OK, I will. It means you're out of steam and that's your last resort.

It comes right before name calling, which I see you resort to in the next post.

And, all this stuff happened before Al Gore invented the internet* and, most likely, you were still a wet spot on your daddy's inseam. Did you read the dates?

*WEll, compuserve was just starting up but that's a different animal.

You're full of hot air and POOP!!!

Oh... And there's no difference between speaker wires that will actually cause damage to an amplifier. That stuff has been around since the laws of physics came to be.

Tsk... tsk... BBBBWWWWAAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

I see that rather than learn you would prefer to call names. I can see your momma raised you well. Too bad daddy didn't stick around to help. Then again, with a kid like you, who could blame him?

Well... I see that rather than learn, you prefer to live in your fantasy world where using high-end speaker wire can destroy your amplifier.

You need to wake up, join reality...

Pedro is never going to be the president of anything in real life. Star Trek isn't real. An amplifier isn't going to be damaged by using high-end speaker wires!!!!

WAKE UP YOU FREAKY, CREEPY, NAME CALLING, LYING, MENTALLY CHALLENGED PIECE OF GARBAGE!!!

At least I know you're not my kid 'cause I did your momma' in the butt!!! That ugly freakin' horse face woulda' been too much!!!

Nobody, no matter how well they were raised, is going to put up with a freaky loser like you. Of course, you probably already know that. Do you think people on the internet will treat you any differently???

We'll see what Naim has to say about not honoring their warranty when high-end speaker wires are used. We'll see what they think about you posting your "stories" in public.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

Well... I see that rather than learn, you prefer to live in your fantasy world where using high-end speaker wire can destroy your amplifier.

You need to wake up, join reality...

Pedro is never going to be the president of anything in real life. Star Trek isn't real. An amplifier isn't going to be damaged by using high-end speaker wires!!!!

WAKE UP YOU FREAKY, CREEPY, NAME CALLING, LYING, MENTALLY CHALLENGED PIECE OF GARBAGE!!!

At least I know you're not my kid 'cause I did your momma' in the butt!!! That ugly freakin' horse face woulda' been too much!!!

Nobody, no matter how well they were raised, is going to put up with a freaky loser like you. Of course, you probably already know that. Do you think people on the internet will treat you any differently???

We'll see what Naim has to say about not honoring their warranty when high-end speaker wires are used. We'll see what they think about you posting your "stories" in public.

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Gee, wotta crybaby. What, time to change your diapies? You get trounced in public and go threatening legal action because you are wrong, eh? Yep, you sure can dish it out but you still can't take it.

What, you gonna have 'em gonna sue wikipedia and A/R? Get real. You've been reading too many comic books, kid.

Wassamatta' kid? Like to dish it out but can't take it, eh?

Your opening statement, and each subsequent one, was progressively more confrontational and insulting than the previous, even after I initially maintained a civil nature. You don't want to exchange ideas, you want to insult people who have different ideas and more experience than you. If not, you would explore and learn rather than fling insults like a grade school child with no upbringing.

Yep, you're an Internet baby, all right. Brought up taking anonymity for granted. You've got keyboard balls when mommy isn't watching you . You'll say things behind that which you would never say in person.

What, don't like that web site, do ya? Why? Because it shows that there's more to this world than your widdle mind can conceive? Get used to it, kid. You're in for some biiiiiiig disappointments when you grow up. Life is like that kid.

I once THOUGHT you had some sense but your actions here sure proved me wrong. You're just a widdle poser who doesn't even do his own laundry yet.

I'm so glad you've come out and shown your true colors to everyone. Happy now? Real proud of yourself?

OIh, and as far as nobody wanting to put up with a freaky loser like me, well, my wife, three grown boys and five grandchildren seem to have no problems with me. And there you are, still living in a polygamous state with Rosy Palm and her five sisters.

Now , run along child. you annoy me.

TTFN. kid. Markw out

You just keep proving that when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you just make stuff up!!!!

You are a freak!!! Nobody has ever deserved a "virtual butt kicking" more than you!!!

Tell your "stories" somewhere else freak!!!

I'll say it one more time...

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

THAT IS A FACT!!! AN ABSOLUTE FACT!!!

You can piss and moan all you want... tell your little lies... talk down to me...say crap about my mother...do your little "Tsk.. tsk.." (FREAK!!!)...

But, none of it will change that this is a FACT. None of it will change the FACT that you are a HUGE IDIOT for believing otherwise.

Nothing will change the FACT that you are a creepy, freaky idiot who makes ridiculous statements on the internet, then makes up stories and whines and cries alot to try and back them up.

THESE ARE FACTS THAT CAN BE SUPPORTED BY INFORMATION THIS THREAD. NOT THE CREEPY FANTASY STORIES TOLD TO YOU BY THE VOICES IN YOUR HEAD. CAN YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE? IT APPEARS NOT.

GET HELP FREAK!!!

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

THAT IS A FACT!!! AN ABSOLUTE FACT!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

THAT IS A FACT!!! AN ABSOLUTE FACT!!!

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"Parasitic Oscillation
This is the major problem that plagues all solid-state amplifiers. Instability appears as bursts of oscillations (Mega Hz) on the music waveform. This causes RF interference and can easily destroy tweeters. This oscillation cannot be heard directly, but the result is sometimes head as a low level high-frequency swishing sound. Some audiophile amplifiers are inherently unstable. They can burst into oscillation simply by changing speaker leads. Amplifiers competing for higher specifications can exaggerate this problem.

An average amplifier increases the input signal to the speaker by approx 50 (Signal gain 1:50). The amplifier is initially designed with a gain of approx 20,000 (open loop gain). The open loop gain is reduced to approx 50 by the output being feed back to the comparator (negative feedback). The greater the 'open loop gain' before being feed back, the higher the specifications, but the less stable the amp becomes. Some audiophile amplifiers have open loop gains exceeding 1Million. Speaker outputs of all amplifiers have a damping circuit (Zobal) to help suppress parasitic oscillation."

http://www.lenardaudio.com/education/12_amps.html

"3) Some designs of Power Amplifier (and in some cases a faulty amplifier) can produce parasitic oscillations or become unstable when used with some cables. Typically with loudspeaker cables that have a relatively high shunt capacitance. Most professional or commercial modern designs of amplifiers should not show this problem under any domestic circumstances if used as intended. Hence this should not be a problem. However in some cases it may occur, and will alter the performance of the amplifier, than thus may have an audible effect."

http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioM...kracables.html

"One (potentially major) drawback ocurs if you own certain amplifiers that are unstable with capacitive loads. Typical multiple twisted pair cable has about 9nF per metre of capacitance with little resistance or inductance, which causes many amplifiers to go into parasitic oscillation. The fix is simple, wind twelve turns of wire around a pen and put it in series with the beginning of the cable. This tiny coil has far less inductance than even one metre of twin flex.

This description of the possible issues with speaker cables is the first I have seen that makes some sense from a technical perspective. There is sufficient evidence from my own measurements and those of many writers that there are indeed some detectable (and measurable) differences. With this in mind, and wanting to provide all the information I can, I have included this information - and this is the one area where properly sized and well made cables really does make a difference. If you own speakers that present a highly capacitive load, or have deep "notches" in the impedance curve, I would take this information seriously."

http://www.audiocourses.com/esp/cabl...htm#spkr-leads

"may have an audible effect."

Notice it didn't say... And your amplifier may burst into flames because you used the wrong speaker wire???!!! BBBBWAAAAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHAAAAA!!!

Did the voices in your head say that???

Tsk... tsk.. BWWWWWWWAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

"may have an audible effect."

Notice it didn't say... And your amplifier may burst into flames because you used the wrong speaker wire???!!! BBBBWAAAAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHAAAAA!!!

Did the voices in your head say that???

Tsk... tsk.. BWWWWWWWAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!

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When I use the term "smoking knees" that does not necessarily imply sparks and flame, but shutting down until the now defective output stage was replaced.

I must say, that's quite a "virtual butt kicking" you gave me here.

I can see where your ignorance in this matter has grown into full fledged denial, which can roughly be attributed to stupidity.

Oh well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. At least the true depth of your knowledge and willingness to learn more about this hobby has been brought to light. I'm pretty sure that anyone following this thread now has a yardstick upon which to measure the validity of what you may say in the future.

I guess you know all you will ever need to know.

"Oh well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. At least the true depth of your knowledge and willingness to learn more about this hobby has been brought to light. I'm pretty sure that anyone following this thread now has a yardstick upon which to measure the validity of what you may say in the future."


IS THAT A FACT, FREAK?... OR IS THAT WHAT THE VOICES SAY??? AM I REALLY SUPPOSED TO CARE ANYWAY, YOU FREAKY, CREEPY, WEIRDO???!!!

FREAK!!!

Any different load presented by using a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers. FACT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

"Any different load presented by using a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers. FACT

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Yep, you just go ahead and keep believing that. How's that blue pill taste, kid?

"How's that blue pill taste, kid?"

BWAAAAHHHHHAAAAHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!! FREAKY GEEK!!! Go play with your video games and GI Joes!!!!

Any different load presented by using a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers. FACT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by markw

Yep, you just go ahead and keep believing that...

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...it must be somethin' in the friggin' water !!! Either that or they've opened the gates of the idiot asylum...

For anyone who might be interested in the truth, even the self-avowed wire-guru, JR hisself, has stated on these very forums, that some wire designs can inter-react with less than optimally designed amplifiers, causing oscillations that can, and in some cases do (as was my case) send the amp to an early demise.

Early on, in the nascent days of the cottage industry of wire-isn't-just wire (late 70s? early 80s?) I purchased some Polk Cobras from my local snoot-shop, audio emporium...all I was lookin' for were some specific DTD pressings...yada, yada, yada...they looked cool, the conductors woven together looking like climbing rope and after all I was an audiophile on the cutting edge...I buys 'em, replace my zip with them, and one day, poof!!! a puff of green smoke, the scent of ozone and electrolyte spewed about the PCBs...As per the repair tech, lacking any other evidence, the wire was the most likely culprit...That amp, wired with 10ga zip works even today and my speakers have no crossover components...

So yeah, can wires do things?...you betcha...

jimHJJ(...mostly they can relieve you of spare cash...)

I would have to believe there was a short somewhere. Bad insulation, connectors, speaker problem, etc... or that it was just a coincidence...

I will not ever believe that using different speaker wires can damage an amp.

Any difference in load presented by using different speaker wires is absolutely dwarfed in comparison to the difference in loads presented by different drivers, crossovers, and music.

How did you get from "lacking any evidence" to "most likely" to "you betcha'"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

I would have to believe there was a short somewhere. Bad insulation, connectors, etc... or that it was just a coincidence...

I will not ever believe that using different speaker wires can damage an amp.

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...people relegate every electrical problem to the ubiquitous "short"...The Cobras were not short-circuited then and they still aren't...at least my Sperry VOM didn't show one, nor did my Simpson, nor did my Triplett ...neither analog nor digital-type showed anything out of the ordinary for a piece of wire...not a "dead" short, not a high-resistance one...no individual-conductor ground faults (nor a place for there to be one)...there was no manipulation of the wires, they just lay there...no mouse bites, no dog pee, no gnawing rug-rats...a short, is a short, is a short...generally speaking, they don't go away...wet can dissipate and the resistance change reflects that and they weren't wet. There was, however, a capacitive difference.

Do you believe wire can behave like a tone control? That smaller gauge wires can roll-off the high freqs? That as a result, folks claim (and rightly so) that some wires can can provide more bass? Even though the relationship is relative, wire can sound different and depending on the architecture can measure quite differently in the salient LCR parameters...Zip is different from twisted is different from CAT5...it's all in the TPI...weave a CAT5 with it's roughly 24 Twists Per Inch or CAT5e @32TPI into one of the on-line DIY recipes and you can easily do a mischief to some amps...fact, not fiction...

Question of the day: Any idea how a fuse works?

jimHJJ(...work on that a bit...)

I'd imagine that many high-end interconnects could blow your amp sky high then, considering their effects are so greatly amplified.

I'm getting really worried now. How will I ever know if the WIRE I'm using is safe??? This is a frightening revelation indeed...


Wire with a "short" can test fine with a tester and arc at higher wattages.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royphil345

I'd imagine that many high-end interconnects could blow your amp sky high then, considering their effects are so greatly amplified.

I'm getting really worried now. How will I ever know if the WIRE I'm using is safe??? This is a frightening revelation indeed...


Wire with a "short" can test fine with a tester and arc at higher wattages.

---

...realize we're talking speaker wiring and not ICs...

...realize the numbers required for arcing to happen? Think spark plug gaps and coil voltages...40kV to jump .035in.

jimHJJ(...ain't happnin' in your living room...)