Food For Thought!

[O'Shag]

I didn't think that you believed that for a minute Blackraven. I would have thought the opposite given a lot of your posts. Actually this post was a great idea. Its certainly healthy to have such discourse. Reading the article in question just confirms the question of double blind testing for me. I do think, if such a test was conducted properly, that the results would show the easily-noticable differences. I can but think that the tests are badly set up. The differences of amplifiers are much easier to hear than that of cables - much easier...

But still and all - a thought provoking thread- How's the weather in St Paul ( I love that city - lived in Minnetonka for three years)

Cheers Mate

[Les Adams]

What a load of rubbish. Just when I think that there may be a place for double blind testing in audio, then I read an article like this. Its just complete and utter rubbish and I know this because the differences are so profoundly evident to anyone with half an ear or a brain.
No offence to anyone

I beg to differ! My girlfriend has a very active brain and in terms of i.q. she is more than a match for me.. she also has two fully working ears... BUT, I have made changes to my system that have made a profound difference to my ears, yet she struggles to notice the difference.

What the article and tests prove however is that there are people earning a living by bluffing their way in this industry! There are differences but not everyone can hear them! I am sure that once a certain level of quality is reached then the law of diminishing returns comes into play and I doubt that I could hear the difference, but that does not mean there is no difference, it just means I can't hear it.

In audio terms this is what makes us "audiophiles" as opposed to casual listeners of music. Our depth of listening goes beyond the music itself and we can appreciate differences in sound that others may not. To suggest that those who do not listen in the same way, or are unable to hear those differences are stupid or deaf is not necessarily true, but perhaps they should not be evaluating audio gear in the hi-fi press!

Maybe subjecting audio reviewers to double-blind listening tests to prove they CAN hear the difference between different amplifiers as part of their qualification for the job might be an idea? After all, an antiques salesman who cannot spot a fake would not hold a position at Southerby's for long would he?

[blackraven]

O'Shag, The weather here sucks, it was 2F last night. Its been a really bitter cold winter.
I live in Woodbury just 10 min east of St. Paul. I take my boat to lake Minnetonka.

By the way, I'm flying out to LA today for a few days.

[O'Shag]

Cheers Les,

There is most certainly a lot of shicanery in the audio business - I really have to laugh sometimes. Like I told my son today, the last person you want to take at their word is someone that wants to sell you something. especially if the item or concept is expensive and especially if you don't know them personally. One has to use a good deal of common sense, especially with respect to audio. There are a lot of interesting opinions to the left and right, and certainly a lot of well-informed intelligent people, but I find the truth generally lies somewhere in the middle. I tend to start to question arguments where most of the statements are absolutes ie my way is right, the others are wrong.

Perhaps what you say is correct in terms of many people being unable to hear a difference in amplifiers. I for the life of me can't understand it as it is so obvious to me, but then again I might be delusional, or I could have had an alien grandmother. Honestly Les, I don't really care so much about convincing others, becuase I know for myself and thats what counts. But any audiophile who listens to their system regularly should be able to perceive differences in certain amplifiers - slight or significant, just my opinion.

Like your turntable by the way. My rig is the Musical Fidelity M1 table with SME M2 and Dynavector Karat 17D2.

[O'Shag]

Howdy BlackRaven,

2 degrees -My word!! Thats the odd thing about Minnesota. Its so darned warm and beautiful in the summer, and the winter can kill ya stone dead! Love Lake Minnetonka in the summer. Certianly a nice spot to have the yacht moored. Also have a fondness for the three adjoining lakes downtown - Lake Harriet is one I remember, and I often went canoeing there with my young lady. Some of the old mansions down around that area are spectacular.

I hat to make you feel bad, but the weather here in LA today was so beautifully mild and warm. I love this time of year in So Cal. The air has that certain smell thats so refreshing. When the summer comes on the smog will take care of that though.

[Ajani]

......
There is most certainly a lot of shicanery in the audio business - I really have to laugh sometimes. Like I told my son today, the last person you want to take at their word is someone that wants to sell you something. especially if the item or concept is expensive and especially if you don't know them personally.

So true.... I remember going into a store almost two years ago to check out new speakers.... and the salesman spent the entire time trying to convince me to the buy a Pair of Monitor Audio RS6 speakers because "They are such great speakers, that he doesn't even know why Monitor Audio produces the Gold series" - it's interesting to note that the store didn't have any Gold series in stock at the time.... A few months later I passed by the same store and another salesman was quick to do a direct comparison between the Gold and Silvers, in order to convince me that the Gold were well worth triple the price of the Silvers... and that the Silvers would not meet my audio needs... Now certainly, the difference could be due to one salesman loving the Silver and the other the Gold or it could just be a case of 'sell what's in the store now!!!'.....

I've also been to a B&W dealer back when the CM1s came out... Since I was really looking for floorstanders, I inquired when the store would be getting the CM7s... and the salesman went to great lengths to explain to me that the CM7s were going to be inferior to the CM1s (made out of less solid cabinet materials etc..) and so I should just buy the CM1s now...

Needless to say, I don't regard the opinions of salesmen at all in this hobby... Trust your ears and have fun...

One has to use a good deal of common sense, especially with respect to audio. There are a lot of interesting opinions to the left and right, and certainly a lot of well-informed intelligent people, but I find the truth generally lies somewhere in the middle. I tend to start to question arguments where most of the statements are absolutes ie my way is right, the others are wrong.

That's exactly my point of view on this hobby... listen to all opinions but form your own, since exageration and the simple fact that people hear differently can lead you down the wrong path easily...

Perhaps what you say is correct in terms of many people being unable to hear a difference in amplifiers. I for the life of me can't understand it as it is so obvious to me, but then again I might be delusional, or I could have had an alien grandmother. Honestly Les, I don't really care so much about convincing others, becuase I know for myself and thats what counts. But any audiophile who listens to their system regularly should be able to perceive differences in certain amplifiers - slight or significant, just my opinion........

Or you may actually be much better at identifying differences, because of your years of experience in this hobby... Keep in mind that the average person doesn't care enough to really study the differences in audio (as they have different hobbies; like studying subtle differences in brushstrokes in artwork)...

[Les Adams]

Perhaps what you say is correct in terms of many people being unable to hear a difference in amplifiers. I for the life of me can't understand it as it is so obvious to me, but then again I might be delusional, or I could have had an alien grandmother. Honestly Les, I don't really care so much about convincing others, becuase I know for myself and thats what counts. But any audiophile who listens to their system regularly should be able to perceive differences in certain amplifiers - slight or significant, just my opinion.

Like your turntable by the way. My rig is the Musical Fidelity M1 table with SME M2 and Dynavector Karat 17D2.

I don't think you are delusional at all. When I first put the Ringmat on my 401 I really did not expect or, if I am honest, WANT to hear a difference! £50 for a piece of cardboard? But despite my scepticism my ears could hear the improvement and I got a friend to test me blind to make sure I was not delusional!

How about this thought? I sometimes have my hi-fi on during the day playing background music while I do household chores. This means I am not sitting in the optimal position, soundstage and subtleties become irrelevant and the music is purely a backgound to what I am doing. I still enjoy the music but under these conditions, I doubt that I would notice if someone swapped my amp for a lesser or better one. I think this is how many people enjoy music. In other words they are not focussed or wrapped up in the experience.

When I "listen" to music properly I have the lights down low and there are no distractions. If anybody walks in the room or anything distracts me, i.e. the telephone, my concentration is broken and my focus is elsewhere, so I won't be aware or care about fidelity. My room is set up around the system so that I sit in the optimal position to hear it. By comparison I have a friend who has a fairly decent setup - B&W 603 floor standers, a Denon CD player and Denon amp, but the way his speakers are placed in relation to his listening position and other furniture means he has never heard soundstage and would not hear subtle differences. Now if this chap were to write a review of his system he would probably give it five stars, but this is based on HOW he listens and whilst he might comment that the bass is deep and the treble is clean and crisp, which it is, his depth of listening goes no further than that. He might also read the newspaper while "listening" to music! This man does not care about soundstage or how realistic or engaging the presentation is and in some ways I envy him! He has found the holy grail as far as he is concerned and will keep the same system for many years, probably until it breaks and is forced to replace it!

I am not suggesting that reviewers of hi-fi do not set systems up correctly or don't care about fidelity, I am sure they do, but the above example demonstrates how as human beings we have different levels of perception partly based upon our desire to hear the differences. In other words if we don't care we won't hear. However, this does not mean that we imagine differences because we want to, it means we can detect them because our senses and desire to do so enable us to detect them.

I am not sure I have expressed what I was trying to say very clearly, but I hope it makes some sence!

[O'Shag]

Ajani, your point about retail sales folks is especially pertinent, because I am becoming more aware that some of the reviewers are either unwittingly or with full knowledge acting as shills for certain products. There seems IMO to be a direct correlation between the price of products and the reviewers rating of the product. Its led to a very bent perception of reality in the high-end world. Fine audio is rated according to its price. As horrific as it is to conjecture, could it be that the reviewers know that if they provide a glowing review that they will get a special price or have to pay nothing for the product?

Again, I take the middle ground, and try to read between the lines. I do admire John Atkinson. He takes a scientific approach and is firmly based on the planet earth in comparison to some.

[O'Shag]

Hi Les. I would definitely agree with much of what you are saying, but there are exceptional components that are so above the norm, the differences caneasily be heard by non-audiophiles (eg my fiancee) from outside the room, to say nothing of inside the room. Take for example the Acapella speakers with their ion tweeter. Or JBL 4350s. Or my KEF Reference 109 Maidstone.
A really good analogue rig with a premium phono stage sounds very different from a Cd player. The sound is so much bigger, more natural, real and effortless. Whenever I use my MFA MC Reference prototype preamp to cut a CD-R copy from a record, the sound is clearly different for a regular CD. Every non-audiophile friend I've had thats heard these Cd-Rs have immediately noticed the difference, and wanted the CD-R. There are several examples. By the way, what phono stage are you using for the Garrard 401?

[blackraven]

O'shag, great weather we're having here in LA today. I'm in Seal Beach tonight and spent the day in Laguna. Sure wish I lived here all year round.

[Brett A]

awesome new hifi forum

http://hifitalk.forumotion.com/

The link brought me to a register pane that I could not get past w/o registering it seems.
Is it true that you have to join to even see what the conversations look like or even how the forum is formatted? Or did I miss something.

[Les Adams]

Hi Les. By the way, what phono stage are you using for the Garrard 401?

All points noted O'Shag. I guess a blind test using our girlfriends and spouses might be a good way to sort this out!

I use a Trichord Dino phono stage.

[Ajani]

I finally read and saved the original article (since this topic came up again in another thread). There are a few problems that I have with the test, but the major one being the choice of speakers:

Magnepan MG-111a's

Planars would not be my choice for such a test given that many people (including some Planar owners) claim not to be able to hear much difference between amps (of the same power rating) using their speakers... so they tend to chase after more and more powerful amps to avoid clipping and get better bass and volume... Hell, I've seen a few professional reviews refer to Maggies as being great speakers but not ones that give you a clear insight into the quality of the upstream components...

To make the amp test fair, the reviewer would need to also use speakers that are known for being critical of different upstream components....

Also keep in mind that DBT is used by professional magazines such as HiFi Choice regularly and the participants are able to hear differences in the amps/source/speakers being tested.

So even though I believe in DBT... that test was pure BS as far as I'm concerned...

[E-Stat]

Hell, I've seen a few professional reviews refer to Maggies as being great speakers but not ones that give you a clear insight into the quality of the upstream components...

I'll have to disagree with that perspective. Maggies certainly offer the kind of resolution necessary to hear subtle differences. What they cannot do, however, is demonstrate the more typical interaction between amplifier and speaker since they present such a consistent and easy to drive resistive load. Amps that work fine with them may fare poorly with more challenging speaker loads.

rw

[Feanor]

.... Maggies certainly offer the kind of resolution necessary to hear subtle differences. What they cannot do, however, is demonstrate the more typical interaction between amplifier and speaker since they present such a consistent and easy to drive resistive load. Amps that work fine with them may fare poorly with more challenging speaker loads.

rw

I agree that Maggie rez is good, even on the quasi-ribbon models. This is why Maggie owners often spend disproportionate amounts on amps and upstream components -- their speakers can reveal the differences.

Certainly I strongly believe I've heard distinct differences between various amps, preamps, and vacuum tubes. On the other hand to me differences amoung digital sources have been very subtle, and difference among decent interconnects insignificant.