External factors of buying decision...

[JoeE SP9]

Hyfi, you are so right. Unions have a tendency to protect poor and marginal workers. Too many union workers care nothing about the quality of their work. They know the union will protect them when they perform below acceptable levels. I have heard that Harley Davidson had a union problem caused by having too many job classifications. You weren't allowed to do a job out of your classification even if that job was something you had to know how to do in order to do your job.
Pride in my work is essential. Although I'm officially retired I still do quite a bit of computer work (hardware and software). My biggest problem is the lack of repeat business. Once I build or repair a computer or write some custom software I don't hear from that customer again. Although they send me lots of referrals, I don't hear from them until they want a new PC or some different custom software. It bothered me until I realized that in this case "no news is good news".
Don't get me wrong. I realize that unions are sometimes a necessity. However, in many cases they have gone too far in salary demands and their protection of the marginal or poor worker. I believe they are pricing themselves out of work.

[Hyfi]

However, in many cases they have gone too far in salary demands and their protection of the marginal or poor worker. I believe they are pricing themselves out of work.

They are also pricing the product out of reach for most americans. That is one reason I got out of the manufacturing business, along with injuries. Manufacturing in America is pretty much dead compared to 20 years ago before NAFTA. Once that went into play, MFG left the country. We are now a Service oriented country and not a Product oriented country.

Too many americans are forced to buy cheap slave labor products because they cannot afford the overpriced american union made product that does the same thing.

[frenchmon]

Why would I support workers who choose to work for morally and ethically bankrupt organizations? Why do you? Just because they're American. Plenty of people work for companies that do horrible things and those workers quit and become whistle blowers or merely leave because they conclude that working for monstrous companies is not something they can stomach. Those people have something called integrity. While many are willing executioners and "just follow orders" because they get a pay cheque at the end of the week.

RGA...dont know about Canada, but I moved from North Carolina to St.Louis...and in both places its not like you have a choice of finding a Job these days. I work in IT and I got lucky when I found a Job as quickly as I did when I moved to St. Louis. I know people who worked at IBM in Carlona and got laid off...top IT jobs, and it took forever for him to find a job.

Im following the missus from state to state because she is the one with the real job who can just transfer her or she can put in a request to move. Most foke dont have time to worry about what the company is doing as long as they putting clothes on the backs of their kids and a roof over their heads. Thats integrity my friend. If those same people refused to work and take care of the kids because of the CEO's who are crooks, you would be the first to call them dead beats.

Sometimes you don't have a choice - but I am saying when you DO have a choice why not make it for the responsible companies over the irresponsible ones. Oil is more of a government level issue. I don't go to the store and buy a bottle of BP. Do you? but the government can most certainly get off the oil tit - it doesn't purely do to heavy lobbying power and the fact that governments are owned by Big Oil, Big Pharma, and any other Big you can think of.

Most people dont have a choice...thats my point! And I just went to the store and bought a bottle of oil last week. My car is burning oil now....I might have to buy a Ford soon. I like that Taurus. The issue you bring up is corrupt and unethical practices by Corporate America, so that means BP fits the bill just like Ford. BP lied to the American people and lied big time to try and cover there tails. And then they had to be forced with pressure to pay those who lost their establishments due to the oil.

With my Ford example there are something like 10 or more other car companies that offer very similar products for very similar prices so with a proven terrible track record why not consider the other makes? I could understand it if you needed a car and Ford is the only maker but... Or if you support local workers or fair trade why buy something you know is made offshore to increase profits over something that is made in a plant where you know the people making it are being paid fairly.

So would you have all people to boycott Ford? Put them out of business? And what would be the result of that? Are you thinking this thing to its logical concussion or what? Answer that please.

Unfortunately, the Union buster views is idiotic. I am not a fan of union power becoming too big - but I am MORE fearful that business is allowed free reign to be complete dictatorships on American/Canadian soil. The purpose of the Union was to stop businesses hiring 5 year olds to clean chimneys and often dying in the process. Or to stop them hiring 8 years olds to work 16 hour days 7 days a week. And firing them if they didn't bend over for the boss (literally). Without Unions driving morality and ethics in business do you think it would not go back to those very things? See Kathy Lee Gifford (though I don't think she was in the know) and Nike as examples of what companies will happily do if no one is watching over them. I understand Unions have problems but they are out to better the working class - which is 95% of the population and not out for the business owners. Though good business owners who treat their people well - usually don't get unions. The reason they show up in most cases is because the boss is an ethically bankrupt jerk.

Did you see what happened at Boeing Aircraft this past week in St.Louis? The Union wanted a strike. The people voted it down. Do you think they cared about unfair practices by the CEO's or the company as a whole? Why do you think the people voted it down? RCA...I understand all your arguments man..believe me. But the average person just don't have $ 500.000 sitting in the bank to do what you think they should do man! We know these companies are unethical....most of us know what Ford and other companies have done. I know whats going on at NIKE...shoot! Thats old news...and its also old news that its 2010. Times are hard and babies got to eat. Let the forces of God take care of the forces of evil...in the mean time let people work man its hard out here. Sorry man but what you are talking about aint going to happen. Its hard to get a dollar these days. Like your honesty and ideas...but its 2010

[Hyfi]

Let the forces of God take care of the forces of evil...in the mean time let people work man its hard out here.

Yikes, from politics right on to religion. I hope you realize that that mindset is a copout. People have to make things happen...or not. But saying "I'll just sit back and pray for god to handle all my problems" is one of the fundamental problems of religion.

God isn't doing anything. He-She-It gave humans the ability to choose and do as they please, right or wrong. He-She-It is not just going to step in and fix everything he just allowed us to F up.


I do agree that people have to work, and can't always choose to turn down a good job because of what the CEO is doing. But people can make as many possible moral choices along the way.

Of topic but one of my big peeves are Animal Rights activists who wear leather shoes and hold their pants up with leather belts.

[frenchmon]

Yikes, from politics right on to religion. I hope you realize that that mindset is a copout.

Well you just missed the whole point then. In other words...I aint going to worry about what those who are in the seat of CEO's stop me from doing what I have to do.

People have to make things happen...or not. But saying "I'll just sit back and pray for god to handle all my problems" is one of the fundamental problems of religion.

And that's my point...make it happen for me and my kids by working. Now you can go and try to close down Ford all you want, but ima making the money. You sound like you got the money to do what RGA is talking about.... so close them down.

God isn't doing anything. He-She-It gave humans the ability to choose and do as they please, right or wrong. He-She-It is not just going to step in and fix everything he just allowed us to F up.

Look...you are the one making this into religion not me....I don't think you want to have this conversation so I'll just stop here. My goodness Hyfi...a guy cant use the word God in a sentence without you getting off on a rant...and all defensive....dangit!

I do agree that people have to work, and can't always choose to turn down a good job because of what the CEO is doing. But people can make as many possible moral choices along the way.

And who said they couldn't?

Of topic but one of my big peeves are Animal Rights activists who wear leather shoes and hold their pants up with leather belts.

Ok...we need to stop going off the road, and come back to the original topic...it aint religion and it aint Animal rights...its...its...what is it any ways....?

[GMichael]

Ok...we need to stop going off the road, and come back to the original topic...its...its...what is it any ways....?

Bashing Rich for trying to save the world from itself?

[frenchmon]

Hey...you better remove that devil from your posting HYfi might get the wrong idea

[GMichael]

Hey...you better remove that devil from your posting HYfi might get the wrong idea

He already knows that I AM the devil.

[frenchmon]

He already knows that I AM the devil.

Hahaha...lol!

[RGA]

I am not saying quit your jobs and go someplace else. It's a hard time for a lot of folks I get that. That being said, there is no reason to sit in the job working for slime balls and not explore other jobs send out resumes, take courses for a different career path. I also understand a family of five on limited income in some ways being forced to shop at Wal-Mart. When you can buy a jug of V8 for $2.50 and other places are charging $4.27 and that just on one item I get that money only goes so far. That doesn't quite explain why the new top of the line BMW owner is shopping there however.

As for Ford - yes they have workers so does Honda, Kia Hyundai etc and most of them are built in the US and Canada. Why not boycott Ford. Why not every single person target one company to send a message to ALL the rest of them. Yes the workers at Ford would lose their jobs - but car buyers have to buy cars from someone and those other car companies will have to pick up the slack and that means they'll be looking for experienced workers - in other words they'll hire the Ford workforce to pick up the slack. If the general public got together and targeted a mega corporation and shut them down overnight then that would speak the only language corporations give a damn about - money.

And before you buy the Taurus - read the Lemon-Aid guide. Trust me - you have been warned.

Edit - the Lemon-Aid may not be available in the United States - but here is an example of Taurus issues http://fordsuckz.0catch.com/___3_8L_...lemon-aid.html

[Ajani]

God isn't doing anything. He-She-It gave humans the ability to choose and do as they please, right or wrong. He-She-It is not just going to step in and fix everything he just allowed us to F up.

I know that point was totally off topic, but since it is very much my view on God, I feel inclined to nod in agreement...

OK, now we can get back on topic... lol

[Ajani]

As for Ford - yes they have workers so does Honda, Kia Hyundai etc and most of them are built in the US and Canada. Why not boycott Ford. Why not every single person target one company to send a message to ALL the rest of them. Yes the workers at Ford would lose their jobs - but car buyers have to buy cars from someone and those other car companies will have to pick up the slack and that means they'll be looking for experienced workers - in other words they'll hire the Ford workforce to pick up the slack. If the general public got together and targeted a mega corporation and shut them down overnight then that would speak the only language corporations give a damn about - money.

That's actually a very good point: If Ford falls, then some other car company will take Ford's sales and experienced workers.

I remember back in the Enron scandal, when the fifth largest accounting firm in the world (Arthur Anderson) collapsed. Guess what happened to many of the experienced Accountants and Auditors from Anderson: they moved to other Accounting firms. Anderson's clients went elsewhere and so did their employees.

[bobsticks]

That's actually a very good point: If Ford falls, then some other car company will take Ford's sales and experienced workers.

But not necessarily in the United States...and we have our own problems that we're busy not addressing. I know it's one big ol' Green World but I don't pay taxes in India or China. At some point I gotta look out for my team, my peeps...

I remember back in the Enron scandal, when the fifth largest accounting firm in the world (Arthur Anderson) collapsed. Guess what happened to many of the experienced Accountants and Auditors from Anderson: they moved to other Accounting firms. Anderson's clients went elsewhere and so did their employees.

Yes, they moved to other firms in the United States and took up golf with their new friends. One cannot assume de facto that the resulting move will remain within a specific locale or power structure especially within the manufacturing sector. We already have politicians and unions to make those assumptions and CEO's to prove them wrong.

[frenchmon]

As for Ford - yes they have workers so does Honda, Kia Hyundai etc and most of them are built in the US and Canada. Why not boycott Ford. Why not every single person target one company to send a message to ALL the rest of them. Yes the workers at Ford would lose their jobs - but car buyers have to buy cars from someone and those other car companies will have to pick up the slack and that means they'll be looking for experienced workers - in other words they'll hire the Ford workforce to pick up the slack. If the general public got together and targeted a mega corporation and shut them down overnight then that would speak the only language corporations give a damn about - money.

I heard of an account of a fine fella who told his own story about how he worked at a very nice company in a nice city where he was making a very decent salary just into $200.000 and taking very good care of his family before he got caught up in the recession and lost his very good paying job. Had to give up the company car and other perks that came with it and almost lost his house. Took him a while to get hired by another company, and when he did get hired he was making far less than he was before. Long story short, the guy had to buy a car and had to pay an outstanding high rate because his credit was tore up. No one would give him a honest loan but the wolves who prey on people who need help. His credit was awful due to the recession.

When I lived in Carolina, our Mexican friends drove the job market down with low wages....American born, skilled people looking for decent work couldn't get a job because Mexicans sneaked into the country and took what was once good paying jobs. I mean jobs a person could be proud of like D.R.Horton Home builders, Centex Homes, and other good paying jobs. Mexicans took those jobs working for peanuts and doing it 7 days a week. Thats all you see building homes in the Raleigh/Durahm area...no whites no blacks but Mexicans who work for peanuts. Whats my point? The recession was even worse than that with putting good schooled ...and skilled... and trained people out of work. Employers have tons of resumes and applications sitting on their desk. They can hire whom they want at what salary they want to pay them...and believe me, many of these once good paying jobs are now being worked for far less now than before the recession hit us.

So you are asking people in 2010 to boycott a job in order to put a company out of business because of unethical practices, and then another company is going to pick up the slack and pay them just as much as they made at the other company while we are just coming out of a recession??? Hahahahaha....lol!!! that is just down right insane advice RGA....I love you man as one of my fellow audiohobbyist, but its not going to happen nor will it work in today's market....maybe back in the 80's but not today.

You should have seen all the Boeing Aircraft workers on the local news here in St. Louis when asked why did they not strike when the union said to vote the new contract down. They all said the same thing...times are hard, its to hard to find another job, we all got bills to pay. It aint like those engineers over at Boeing Aircraft Co. are make $20 hour. Some of those guys are making close to $100-150 hour.

[Ajani]

A question that comes to mind is this:

Why are American workers so well paid (relative to workers in other countries)? I'm a US CPA, and the salary I receive in Jamaica is a mere pittance compared to what I got in Toronto and what I'd get in the US. The sad truth is that it may just be that the world is slowly balancing out and India, China, etc are moving up as the US is going down. Maybe everything will become more level eventually and people will just stay in their own countries, rather than migrating to better paying countries.

[RGA]

When I lived in Carolina, our Mexican friends drove the job market down with low wages....American born, skilled people looking for decent work couldn't get a job because Mexicans sneaked into the country and took what was once good paying jobs. I mean jobs a person could be proud of like D.R.Horton Home builders, Centex Homes, and other good paying jobs. Mexicans took those jobs working for peanuts and doing it 7 days a week. Thats all you see building homes in the Raleigh/Durahm area...no whites no blacks but Mexicans who work for peanuts. Whats my point? The recession was even worse than that with putting good schooled ...and skilled... and trained people out of work. Employers have tons of resumes and applications sitting on their desk. They can hire whom they want at what salary they want to pay them...and believe me, many of these once good paying jobs are now being worked for far less now than before the recession hit us.

And that is precicely why you need to support UNIONS. Look I know unions are a pain and that it "protects" a lot of "useless lazy bums" and I get those arguments made in this thread - I 100% agree that this is a huge problem. But without them there is nothing stopping companies from firing all their $25 an hour labourers for guys who will work for minimum wage. That is why you had unionists busting knee caps and threatening people who crossed the line as scabs. YOU must FIGHT for your wages and if you don't your wages will be reduced and reduced to the point that employers will pay as little as they possibly can. You are probably better off working for a small business owner than a corporation because they deal with their employees more often face to face and it's harder to screw someone when you see them everyday. The film I posted called "the Corporation - you see that CEO's have never even walked through their own plants.

Unions have their problems there is no question about it - but you have to weigh the overall good with the overall bad of not having them. I am middleclass (right now lower) so it would make far more sense for me to vote left wing than if I were a rich guy. I used to work for the NDP which is our provincial lefft wing government and I was shocked at all the wasted programs. I felt they were spending tax dollars on programs that went way over the needs of the people receiving them. Sure I believe people need some help when they are disabled but some of the programs went crazy over the top. As you know many dislike left wing governments in general because they "overspend" on things and they tend to increase taxes.

So after my stint I voted for the right wing party called the Liberal party (yes that's our right wing) so they cut spending and lowered taxes. The problem was they got rid of those over the top programs but they also got rid of a whole pile of programs that are actually quite needed. They laid-off the people who actually did the work and kept the middle manager morons. They gave teachers a 0-0-0 pay increase. In other words teachers got no raise for three years (this works out to a pay cut because the cost of living went up about 9% over that period - if you don't get at least the cost of living then you got a pay cut). All government employees also got that cut. meanwhile they gave themselves a 15% pay increase.

Anyway, the point is that while the left wing may OVERSPEND on useless programs they at least did spend it on things that people actually need and use. I would rather the money actually go to something that 90% of the population will use and needs even if we spend on useless junk. The alternative is that the 1% of the elite business owners all save some money that went to them buying a bigger house and cars and audio gear. Great for them and no one else. And none of that money trickles down - they used their money to buy Oracle software so they could lay off employees. So that notion that the business saves money and hires more people is an outright lie.

And this goes to Unions. It's stupid that I can't change a lightbulb because it's union protected - the janitor needs to do it. I know it's insane and idiotic, but the alternative is we both have no job and some guy does it for $2 a day. If I want to do it - I can take the pay cut I suppose. The Union increases all pay for all workers whether they are in a union or not. The non union shops will see the competitor pay $10 an hour and if they don't get close they have to pay $10 an hour as well. As for illegal workers - government needs to step in. Typically, migrant workers do the work nobody else wants to do - like picking apples for 12 hours a day.

With a union job such as nursing or teaching in Canada you need to be certified in the Province to be able to get those jobs. If you are an American teacher you can teach interim until you meet the crednetials required and as such immigrants or people sneaking in can't get those jobs even if someone wanted to hire them. Again that is why if more jobs had such accreditation these kinds of things would not happen.

[Woochifer]

First with Ford and Toyota - Why make it about either or. Surely you are intelligent enough to know that Ford has a long deep history of horrendous behavior beyond Henry Ford. In fact I could probably bypass the man's actions because historically speaking the time frame he lived many countries around the world along with very likely the majority of their citizenry were anti-Semitic.

As others have noted, how many generations back are you going hold responsible? As I pointed out, just about any of the large companies in Axis countries that were in business during WWII have blood on their hands. If Ford is to be held responsible for anti-semitic views of Henry Ford, then do you hold German companies like Siemens, Krups, Daimler-Benz, and others to the same standard?

Ford has actively in the past and not the distant past chosen to pay off law-suits rather than recall for safety Pinto and more recently their rolling over trucks they blame the tire makers on - yeah. And in Europe the class Actions lawsuits against Ford Focus which is pretty recent since this is not an old model. Ford has a systemic, generational history of this. This is not something that was in WWII so let's forget it. I could go with you on that, but it's in the 60s, 70, and then just building garbage through the 80s and 90s the Focus in the 2000s - this is ongoing systemic and no one is held accountable for any of it.

But, this is an issue pertaining to product quality, not the external factors that you're talking about in your thread. If you're talking about product quality, then take a look at what Ford is doing right now, rather than constantly trudging up dirt about cars that aren't even made anymore (even the Focus now has an above average reliability rating). In case you didn't hear, Ford placed #5 in the latest JD Power IQS ranking, while Toyota placed #13.

And it appears to me that Toyota is doing their best Ford impersonation. So on the one level they are not looking out for the safety of the people and on the other hand Toyota and likely others doing what you just noted with dumping their employees - no doubt for cheap labour.

Oh please. If you're going to go decades back and talk about safety, keep in mind that the Toyotas produced during the 70s and early 80s were some of the worst ranked cars on the road in terms of their safety. Yes, they were reliable, but they ranked near the bottom on crash test performance. The first head-on collision crash test that the NHTSA ever conducted pitted a Toyota Celica against a Ford Mustang. The data from the crash test indicated that passengers in the Ford would have survived, while in the Toyota they would have sustained fatal injuries.

It's not really about being self-righteous because I sit here with products made by corporations doing rather obscene things. The issue is once-known do we continue to use our dollar to support it? I owned Ford as did my parents but once we learned about them we said "You know what there are other choices" and you make them - it also helped that the car practically self destructed at a 85,000 kilometers. I mean I have never owned a car that within 5 years of fully maintained easy driven driving did the transmission fail, the driver seat broke, roll-up windows brake (power okay but the actually roller snap LOL), wheel bearings engine, paint. I mean it was like some movie where someone dumps toxic waste on the car and it starts to crumble. It was like that movie Planes, Trains, and Automobiles "hey at least the Radio still worked."

Like I said, if you dig deep enough, just about every big company is going to have some skeleton in their closet that somebody won't like. You don't like Ford. Fine. But, it becomes self-righteous when you start dredging up all of this dirt, as if it's unique to Ford. I mean, when you start describing Toyota's despicable response to their safety issues as "impersonating Ford" you're trivializing it.

Toyota makes fine automobiles and people bought them for their safety and reliability and I suspect on some subconscious level integrity. They will or should take a massive hit for that. But I don't see any good reason to just say - ok let's buy a Ford. Why? there is Honda, Subaru, Kia, Hyundai (these South Korean makes have been lighting up the reliability, safety and warranty scores in CR and the Lemon-Aid recently) and if they're smart may have a nice shot at stepping up to the plate as the new Toyota. The bottom line is there is more choice than Toyota and Ford. Lots more. So while today's Ford may be better than Ford a decade ago - why give them the money when plenty of other makers do not have any sort of that "known" track record. We could "assume" they're all the same but that's not really fair either. Innocent until proven guilty is not a bad doctrine to follow and so why not give the money to the ones who may not be innocent but have not been found guilty. IMO - Toyota and Ford have been found guilty.

Like I said, my issue with Toyota has to do with one of those "external factors" that you were bringing up. The safety issues with Toyota's drive-by-wire systems are not external factors -- they are directly related to the product itself. Even if this recall hadn't blown up in Toyota's face, they would STILL be on my s*** list. I owe it to my neighbors, who are hurting RIGHT NOW because of actions that Toyota directly took against them.

I think it's unfortunate when you note Ben and Jerry's - I am less familiar with them in Canada as it seems Breyers is the biggest name ice cream brand along with I suppose Hagen Daz at the premium end and Purdy's chocolates Ice Cream in the West.

I bring up Ben & Jerry's only because they were so often cited as a model company. Even a company like B&J's with the most socially responsible operations can get targeted for boycott because of somebody else's issue, which in the case of Ben & Jerry's was health and obesity. To those boycotters who have a laser focus on those issues, a company like Ben & Jerry's is no different than a tobacco company.

I just think that it's important to do what YOU can here and not blindly follow the herd. Unfortunately the herd is sometimes as smart as a bucket of rocks which explains the last 4 years of George Bush (I'd say the first four years but as Bush note "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

Has nothing to do with following the herd. It has to do with prioritizing what's important to you. Even the herd will have its own reasons for supporting this company and not another. Everybody does.

Lastly why not be righteous if it is in fact the ground your on is in the right or the just? I would not place it above others - it ends up being preachy. I am not telling people here what to buy - I suppose what I am saying is perhaps think what you buy through a little more closely. Discover the options are more than A and B and say gee Ford did that, Toyota did this so screw em both I'll buy a Hyundai. Sometimes it's not about buying from a good corporation - it's about buying from the least bad one.

Well, the reason is that everybody has a different definition of what's righteous. Some people constraint it to the product it self -- i.e, the product quality, the price, the customer service, etc. Others will consider the external factors. Isn't that what this thread is about?

[Hyfi]

Well you just missed the whole point then. In other words...I aint going to worry about what those who are in the seat of CEO's stop me from doing what I have to do.



And that's my point...make it happen for me and my kids by working. Now you can go and try to close down Ford all you want, but ima making the money. You sound like you got the money to do what RGA is talking about.... so close them down.



Look...you are the one making this into religion not me....I don't think you want to have this conversation so I'll just stop here. My goodness Hyfi...a guy cant use the word God in a sentence without you getting off on a rant...and all defensive....dangit!




And who said they couldn't?



Ok...we need to stop going off the road, and come back to the original topic...it aint religion and it aint Animal rights...its...its...what is it any ways....?

Sorry about that Wooch...It wasn't supposed to be a personal attack on you. I guess I also took your post the wrong way but yeah, I do go off sometimes over certain mindsets that I see as a huge problem that is stopping things from getting done.

I wasn't telling you not to work for whoever pays your bills.

Hey this all reminds me of something. I used to work with a guy who was always getting into new ventures and trying to start businesses. He came to me and my wife offering us a part in a company that goes after people who have not paid fines levied by a judge. Delinquents, I guess they would be called. The job was to go through court records and find people who owed money and go after it. I forget the % but after a few days talking and thinking it over, we decided to say no. We were not going to do a job that made miserable peoples life worse. We were not going to go after poor people that did not have the money to pay the fines. It was a conscious decision to do what we thought was right instead of chasing the quick buck. There is plenty of it in these cases.


And no, I don't have the money you think I do. I did however go back to school in my early 40s, get a degree and change my career. I got out of the Toolmaker/Machinist world because I wasn't making the money I should have been and some injuries. NOT because the trade is overrun with Germans whose ancestors didn't stop the atrocities of WW2. (that one was for RGA)

And RGA, if you're gonna stomp on ford for having a part in history, you better not be drinking a German beer, or nice Riesling, or even eat some German Chocolate Cake. As a matter of fact, if you single out ford, you will have to single out every company that hires Germans.

[Hyfi]

Hey...you better remove that devil from your posting HYfi might get the wrong idea

Thats funny!

[frenchmon]

Sorry about that Wooch...It wasn't supposed to be a personal attack on you. I guess I also took your post the wrong way but yeah, I do go off sometimes over certain mindsets that I see as a huge problem that is stopping things from getting done.

I wasn't telling you not to work for whoever pays your bills.

Hey this all reminds me of something. I used to work with a guy who was always getting into new ventures and trying to start businesses. He came to me and my wife offering us a part in a company that goes after people who have not paid fines levied by a judge. Delinquents, I guess they would be called. The job was to go through court records and find people who owed money and go after it. I forget the % but after a few days talking and thinking it over, we decided to say no. We were not going to do a job that made miserable peoples life worse. We were not going to go after poor people that did not have the money to pay the fines. It was a conscious decision to do what we thought was right instead of chasing the quick buck. There is plenty of it in these cases.


And no, I don't have the money you think I do. I did however go back to school in my early 40s, get a degree and change my career. I got out of the Toolmaker/Machinist world because I wasn't making the money I should have been and some injuries. NOT because the trade is overrun with Germans whose ancestors didn't stop the atrocities of WW2. (that one was for RGA)

And RGA, if you're gonna stomp on ford for having a part in history, you better not be drinking a German beer, or nice Riesling, or even eat some German Chocolate Cake. As a matter of fact, if you single out ford, you will have to single out every company that hires Germans.

Hey Hifi...hope you don't think im angry because of the God comment....I just thought it odd that you said that but it really does not bother me one bit....and I hope my words didn't set you on fire.

One other thing...Ima smoking a brisket this weekend and some baby backs with some good old Mauls bbq sauce with some potatoes smothered in smoky cheese sauce on the grill and some green veggies. But I've been wondering about something sweet after im done eatting....thanks for mentioning the GERMAN CHOCOLATE CAKE....I think I will make one.

Cheers.

[RGA]

A question that comes to mind is this:

Why are American workers so well paid (relative to workers in other countries)? I'm a US CPA, and the salary I receive in Jamaica is a mere pittance compared to what I got in Toronto and what I'd get in the US. The sad truth is that it may just be that the world is slowly balancing out and India, China, etc are moving up as the US is going down. Maybe everything will become more level eventually and people will just stay in their own countries, rather than migrating to better paying countries.

The issue is that their wages should go up - not your wage going down to meet their levels. Unless you want the owner of the corproation to be a trillionaire and everyone else living at poverty. It's Ferengi mentality. If people want things changed they need to organize - vote and "think." The fact that China pays their people $1 a day doesn't mean we have to compete. Government can simply apply a thousand percent tarriff or slow global trade until things are on par. Something. But it requires people to control government and corporations not the other way around.

Bill Maher on France http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKS0yISz6xQ

[frenchmon]

And that is precicely why you need to support UNIONS. Look I know unions are a pain and that it "protects" a lot of "useless lazy bums" and I get those arguments made in this thread - I 100% agree that this is a huge problem. But without them there is nothing stopping companies from firing all their $25 an hour labourers for guys who will work for minimum wage. That is why you had unionists busting knee caps and threatening people who crossed the line as scabs. YOU must FIGHT for your wages and if you don't your wages will be reduced and reduced to the point that employers will pay as little as they possibly can. You are probably better off working for a small business owner than a corporation because they deal with their employees more often face to face and it's harder to screw someone when you see them everyday. The film I posted called "the Corporation - you see that CEO's have never even walked through their own plants.

Unions have their problems there is no question about it - but you have to weigh the overall good with the overall bad of not having them. I am middleclass (right now lower) so it would make far more sense for me to vote left wing than if I were a rich guy. I used to work for the NDP which is our provincial lefft wing government and I was shocked at all the wasted programs. I felt they were spending tax dollars on programs that went way over the needs of the people receiving them. Sure I believe people need some help when they are disabled but some of the programs went crazy over the top. As you know many dislike left wing governments in general because they "overspend" on things and they tend to increase taxes.

So after my stint I voted for the right wing party called the Liberal party (yes that's our right wing) so they cut spending and lowered taxes. The problem was they got rid of those over the top programs but they also got rid of a whole pile of programs that are actually quite needed. They laid-off the people who actually did the work and kept the middle manager morons. They gave teachers a 0-0-0 pay increase. In other words teachers got no raise for three years (this works out to a pay cut because the cost of living went up about 9% over that period - if you don't get at least the cost of living then you got a pay cut). All government employees also got that cut. meanwhile they gave themselves a 15% pay increase.

Anyway, the point is that while the left wing may OVERSPEND on useless programs they at least did spend it on things that people actually need and use. I would rather the money actually go to something that 90% of the population will use and needs even if we spend on useless junk. The alternative is that the 1% of the elite business owners all save some money that went to them buying a bigger house and cars and audio gear. Great for them and no one else. And none of that money trickles down - they used their money to buy Oracle software so they could lay off employees. So that notion that the business saves money and hires more people is an outright lie.

And this goes to Unions. It's stupid that I can't change a lightbulb because it's union protected - the janitor needs to do it. I know it's insane and idiotic, but the alternative is we both have no job and some guy does it for $2 a day. If I want to do it - I can take the pay cut I suppose. The Union increases all pay for all workers whether they are in a union or not. The non union shops will see the competitor pay $10 an hour and if they don't get close they have to pay $10 an hour as well. As for illegal workers - government needs to step in. Typically, migrant workers do the work nobody else wants to do - like picking apples for 12 hours a day.

With a union job such as nursing or teaching in Canada you need to be certified in the Province to be able to get those jobs. If you are an American teacher you can teach interim until you meet the crednetials required and as such immigrants or people sneaking in can't get those jobs even if someone wanted to hire them. Again that is why if more jobs had such accreditation these kinds of things would not happen.

I have worked union jobs and i still have my Teamsters card but have not worked a union job in about ten years....does that make me still a memeber? I have no problem with unions.

[RGA]

Woochifer
1) Toyota and Ford. As I say why buy either one? I have less of a problem with a car that loses to another car in a safety shootout than I do when a company deliberately decided NOT to fix a problem they know about (Pinto and Mustang 60's) because it is cheaper to pay lawsuits than have a recall. The fact that two cars in a test and one outperforms the other may be that one is simply better designed but that is not proven to be malicious intent to let people die.

2) Arguments for war and the players involved are debatable. Mercedes is a German company supporting their own troops in battle. They may be on the side you don't like but Germans had some decent reasons for entring WWII - the holocaust is something else but Hitler was elected and did not have anything close to the majority vote but more than the rest in their system. I have more of a problem with American companies who sold to both sides, selling to the American forces and ALSO selling to the german forces. Playing both sides for profit without the least care in supporting their own. it puzzles me when people support Domestic and say they won't buy Japanese for Pearl Harbour when GM and Ford were profiting on the deaths of many more American Soldiers in WWII. Japan had several reasons to be suspicious of America since the 1920s and the trade embargo put a demand on Japan that forced their hand to some degree. They don't have clean hands but no country does.

3) I sold my Toyota Corolla in part because of what is going on with this company. Choices lend themselves to alternatives. While it is true that most if not all car companies have their ethical shadyness it is also true that many have "worse" track records than others. Safety recalls and some others are not always the fault of the maufacturer is the company supplying the seatbelts screws up then you might give the car maker the benefit of the doubt but when problems are obvious and fixable and they do nothing then why continue to support them. Ford has an abysmal track record. I was not insinuating or trying to lessen the significance of what Toyota has done by saying their pulling a Ford. But this is the first time to my knowledge that Toyota has been in such a "major" scandel. The Lemon-Aid has been discussing the engine surge problems in numerous Toyota models for 10 years. I highly recommend you and everyone else on these boards BUY the Lemon Aid used car guide. It is Canadian and sold at Chapters but perhaps there is a US edition.

4) There is just no reason to throw your dollars at companies with proven horrible track records. You may argue they all probably do the same but I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. I did with Ford, GM, and Toyota - onwed a car from all three. Also had a Honda. My parents have had Nissan, Dodge, and Kia.

The Honda and Kia have been the best vehicles we have owned in terms of reliability warranty and safety. Kia has shown some inroads now that they are under Hyundai control and sharing platforms (I traded my Toyota in for a Kia Rondo for full disclosure). In a strange way the South Koreans are about as American as a car not made in America can be since the country has essentially been reshapen after the Korean War and a large influence of that can be seen in both Audio and Cars as Koreans love McIntosh and those old school horn loudspeakers. They have less of a track record and people still scoff at them for the abysmal Hyundai Pony. But some of their recent offerings in several publications have them scoring the best in their respective classes for reliability long term and short term, safety, warranty, price, features, and even size - yes they even have more room for us fatso North Americans than the domestic counterparts. So screw Toyota and Ford. Honda, Subaru, the Koreans, have some great cars for lower prices and they're arguably better vehicles without the horrendous track records. Granted most of them don't look very slick.

I am most certainly not telling people what to buy. I am just saying why not explore the other choices out there because had my parents not had a Kia I would not have even looked at them because even five years ago they were putting out dreadful cars. being bought seems to have helped. Anyway, we'll see. My Toyota was not all that safe, not reliable, and could possibly kill me. I am hoping for better things from the Rondo. It has scored well in Consumer Reports, it got better ratings for safety and reliability than Honda Civic (which I owned and loved), and most of the Toyotas Mazda and Fords. Hopefully they don't do something completely evil in the next few years. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/kia-rondo/

[GMichael]

Mercedes manufactured large ovens for people to get cooked in during the war. Just sayin’.

[RGA]

Mercedes manufactured large ovens for people to get cooked in during the war. Just sayin’.

Well I would not buy a Mercedes regardless - after reading about their quality in the Lemon-Aid that alone would have me steer clear of the garbage mobiles. "German Engineering" is hardly a selling point to me.

Add the quality of the given product to the ethical recent and not so recent history of whatever company in queston and you have at least a three pronged criteria to go by. Add more if desired. I've had 5 cars by five different makers. I'm not exactly brand loyal.

Anyway, back to audio. I don't think we see any of this with audio companies regarding wars. So it largely rests on employment standards and the debate over off shore building and the like. I suppose that's probably tougher to determine.