Expensive or Insane? Where to draw the line.

[pixelthis]

Great thread Emaidel.

For me, being quite income challenged, the line between expensive and insanely expensive is quite low. The point of diminishing returns sets in quickly and drops like a logarithmic cliff.

I frequently spend as much time finding bargains as I do evaluating equipment. My Technics SL-QD33 turntable with Shure M111HE cartridge cost me about $250 total about 25 years ago or so on a great closout deal. To my ears it still sounds excellent with my Sheffield Labs direct to disc Thelma Houston and Pressure Cooker album I've Got The Music In Me. (I even have a new Shure M111HE I bought many years ago for when the current one grows old).

Would it match the sound of the Clear Audio unit? No, I am sure it would not. Would friends in my living room think the sound of the Clear Audio table with appropriate cartridge sounded $149,750 better than my Technics/Shure combo. No, I am sure they would not. In fact, I would bet my new Dell computer that they would only hear a slight improvement to their ears.

For me I would currently put the PODR (point of diminishing returns ... remember I am patient and usually wait for great online deals) for a 5.1 system with regular dynamic cone speakers and TV in a medium sized room at about:

Turntable and cartridge: $395

Universal player BD player: $499 (arrival soon)

8-track player: $25 (out of stock)

Power Amp (5 ch): $799

Pre-Pro: $699 (arrival soon)

Subwoofer: $949

Speakers (5.0): $1866

50" flat panel TV: $1792

Here we have a 5.1 system with a 50" THX plasma, turntable w/cartridge, CD/SACD/DVD/BD player, 5ea - 4 ohm timbre matched speakers and powered sub, power amp - 350 watts x 5ch/4 ohms/all channels driven, pre-pro with everything on it. Total cost excluding accessories = $6999.

Properly set-up, I believe this system will outperform many systems costing far more and give up only a small difference in audio and video performance advantage to the very best.

I'll be happy to divulge my picks of individual components if anyone is interested, guesses incouraged. (anyone guessing all components correctly wins a free trip to DizzyLand ... this is not that difficult folks if you have followed any of my previous posts ... the 5 speakers will be the hard one)

RR6

I have your turntable , or at least something similar.
Two technics, one belt, the other direct drive, one early eighties, the other late eighties.
CURRENTLY I use the direct drive model(sl-d20) and it sounds great.
Anybody with enough cash can throw money at a problem , but getting a great sound at a bargain price has always been a challenge, and IMHO more fun.
That is one of the great things about this hobby, a poorass with skill can have a pretty
good system.
You just have to know how to shop

[Florian]

Hi everyone,

i am going to add my opinion to this thread as well. I dont believe that there is a need to draw a line anywhere. Everyone has to find their own limit, either by checking their finances or their judgement. I personally think that there are more factors involved other then just "money" and that is taste and joy. I do get a kick out of it that there are possible only 16 other people in this world who have the same speaker as me. It gives me great pleasure, and for that alone i believe i would drop 10k at least. Another factor is the imense tehnical knowledge and material cost involved in it. There are aprox 300 magnets in my speaker which alone are well over 1000lbs. Then you take into consideration that the ribbons where cut by hand, stretched by hand. A Software Eng. invested many month to write down 16000 lines of code into the board computers, a company like Krell designed and built the internal amps specifically for this speaker, wrote codes for the displays and so on... all of this adds up to a huge amount of time, and material cost which has its price. Unfortunatly 85000$ in 1993 where simply not enough to make a profit for the company and they folded because of it.

Where i draw the line, and without upsetting RGA is when a company like AudioNote (Japan or UK) makes speakers which even RGA has to admit are not very expensive to be build based on material cost or craftsmanship. If the speaker would be 8k then i would tend to agree, but 40k is redicoulus! There are simply not enough components, and materials involved to justify this price. The same holds true for 100K Dynaudio speakers.

I agree that for instance, 26500$ for the Apogee DIVA does seriously not reflect the price that that speaker cost to make. Its mostly, MDF, cartboard and aluminium foil plus the magnets. Sound wise, i think its worth every penny, but so does RGA in regards to his dream 40K Audio Note speakers.

The Mercedes S500 is a great car, a car for someone with lots of money. But they do use plastic in the interior that my new Audi S4 Limo.. doesnt have. I tend to shy away from plastic parts. In those price ranges i would much favour an Audio A8, 4.2TDI Quattro, personal choice.

I of course upgraded, so i didnt pay the high price for my system all at once and i believe most do the same. E-Stat would sell his soundlabs u1 as well before buying the majestics, so he would only pay the difference in price. This is normal, but only possible with high price gear that has a following. This will not work nicely on a 300$ axiom speaker

Anyway, sound, luxury, finesse and a seldom made product increase the price and to some it is worth it and to others it is not. The choice is yours, or not... depends on the pocket book. Right RGA ?

[RGA]

Like I said Florian I won't defend the extreme costs of any loudspeaker being priced at these levels. One may also question the "design" of any loudspeaker. But speakers are more than a breakdown of costs per item to resale price. There is not a single car in Toyota's line-up including Lexus that costs them more than $10k so why does the consumer pay more than $10k difference from a bottom of the line Tercel to a top of the line Lexus?

But I noted before that as with all toys, and audiophilia is just that, it boils down to the end result not what it looks like. Though I understand that mostly male buyers are in this hobby and many feel they need to compensate for small ego's by buying more power, heavier, and bigger. It takes a bit of balls to spend large on a two way box.

And frankly, for people to spend large on a two way box, it has to have something going for it because not everyone with money is stupid.

The AN E/Sec Signature is owned by Constantine Soo (editor of Dagogo.com) a man who gave up Apogees for it - and a man who could have owned the top model of pretty much every company on the planet - and instead the two way box beat out all comers (see www.dagogo.com for a list of speakers that have come through there. That deserves attention I should think. www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SIGNATURE.html

The thing is reviewer's have heard most of the stuff out there and an awful lot of them from a lot of different magazines, including me, are slowly steadily sharing the same view. And that is not a fluke. There is no question that a lot of things get great reviews and I am often seen as knocking reviews on one hand and supporting them where I see fit, but not all the reviewers are ponying up their own cash for everything they give a great review to. The editor of enjoythemusic.com and one of his writers, 2 Stereophile writers(one of whom was the resident panel guy) now own a version of the AN E, and a third recently said this

"Forget best sound of show, for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the Audio Note system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard. It was one of those magical moments that we audiophiles put up with all of the hassles for.
After the Audio Note demo. the rest was noise, so I quit on a winner. Not many people who come to Vegas can say that." Wes Phillips, Stereophile, January 2009 http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/

Pretty much concurring with the show reporter from 6moons.

No you don't get 16 woofers or 11,000lbs of wood or space shuttle materials or built in equalizers or omnidirectional gizmos or a speaker that is 10 feet tall. You get a roughly 70 litre box with two drivers in a plain, albeit extremely well finished, polished box.

Everytime I audition the AN E I always walk away wondering why all those makers making 500 lb speakers and 16 woofers can't do what a two way box can do - which is move me emotionally to the artist's intent. Maybe sometimes less is in fact more.

The AN E SOGON is actually the top model in the line at a whopping $125,000.00US and has more than $40,000 worth of silver alone. It has the only currently produced Alnico Tweeter to go along with a fairly rare Alnico Hemp woofer - It's the only speaker I know of that is wired with the same cable from voice coil to amplifier. This is made as a system strictly for users going all Audio Note I suspect and is more of a one off but some have been sold so far - they are wired with SOGON cabling from tone arm to speaker voice coil and every wire in between, interconnects, speaker cables, wiring in the amplifier, DAC, Transport down to their in house transformers, and soldering wire.

Maybe it is also worth considering that despite the "seemingly simple" two way box for "seemingly high prices" Audio Note can't keep up with demand while a great many of their bigger heavier more "exotic design" competitors went out of business because people came and they heard and the sound didn't "cut the mustard." Meanwhile, anyone wanting an AN E will very likely be put on a 6 month to 2 year wait list.

None of the above justifies the price - because I don't think prices need to be justified. The AN E Sogon is a one off made as part of an R&D exercise.

In the end for me price performance is a personal thing and I will not tell you or anyone else anymore what I think you should like. I will tell you why I like it and why I think it's worth listening to. But beyond that there is nothing else to say. There is no question that other speakers have "more parts" and they may even use better parts, have more bass, more treble, more staging etc etc and another etc.

But as Art Dudly said, and of course I agree it boils down to what the system does for you personally

"A note on value: Just a short while ago, I saw a thread on AudioAsylum.com suggesting that Audio Note loudspeakers must be wildly overpriced, given their very plain appearance in comparison with most other expensive speakers. One savant noted the E's lack of a grille: a notorious scheme for cost-cutting by devious manufacturers, he said. I felt as if I'd stepped into a world where an expensive car would be criticized for lacking low-profile wheels, a rear-view videocam, a spoiler, and a fancy paint job—until it occurred to me that I'd never left that world in the first place. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

A product such as this confounds a mindset such as that. In addition to the happy prospect of buying a thing that sells for less than its predecessor and sounds at least as good, the latest version of the Audio Note AN-E/SPe HE offers the kind of performance that simply must be heard to be understood: more music than sound. Like its stablemates, the AN-E/SPe HE is not the sort of audio product that prompts its new owner to pull special record after special record off the shelves just to hear the bass depth on this one, the imaging specificity on that. Rather, the SPe HE is the sort of thing that will compel you to play every record you own, all the way through, without interruption—arguably because it does a better job than most of really connecting the listener with the dramatic, intellectual, and emotional intensities captured in every groove. I can't recommend it strongly enough.—Art Dudley (Stereophile http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...an/index5.html)

[Florian]

If you would like a contest of famous people who own Apogees and Audio Note, then i wont shy away. So far i got one Hollywood movie producer, CEO of one of the largest software companys in the world, sound designer for Disney, one White House health lawyer and a jewish lawyer with two pairs :-)

Trust me, when it comes to people with endless money.... except for me, those that i know in this hobby own Apogees ;-) I havent met one yet who owns Audio Note. But i am sure there are people with lots of money who buy those. But then again, you can buy a Audio Note-E today... not so for big Apogees. You have to be lucky to find one for sale....

Please dont use rich audio people or audio press as a way to justify your purchase. Those people are easy to get with all brands :-)

By the way, you want to see a Apogee Grand in a castle with its own pipe organ? The owner lives in Belgium...... and he lives in a castle. No kiddin! Its a cool pic....

[audio amateur]

By the way, you want to see a Apogee Grand in a castle with its own pipe organ? The owner lives in Belgium...... and he lives in a castle. No kiddin! Its a cool pic....

yes please!

[Feanor]

Hi everyone,

i am going to add my opinion to this thread as well. I dont believe that there is a need to draw a line anywhere. Everyone has to find their own limit, either by checking their finances or their judgement. I personally think that there are more factors involved other then just "money" and that is taste and joy. I do get a kick out of it that there are possible only 16 other people in this world who have the same speaker as me. It gives me great pleasure, and for that alone i believe i would drop 10k at least. Another factor is the imense tehnical knowledge and material cost involved in it. There are aprox 300 magnets in my speaker which alone are well over 1000lbs. Then you take into consideration that the ribbons where cut by hand, stretched by hand. A Software Eng. invested many month to write down 16000 lines of code into the board computers, a company like Krell designed and built the internal amps specifically for this speaker, wrote codes for the displays and so on... all of this adds up to a huge amount of time, and material cost which has its price. Unfortunatly 85000$ in 1993 where simply not enough to make a profit for the company and they folded because of it.

Where i draw the line, and without upsetting RGA is when a company like AudioNote (Japan or UK) makes speakers which even RGA has to admit are not very expensive to be build based on material cost or craftsmanship. If the speaker would be 8k then i would tend to agree, but 40k is redicoulus! There are simply not enough components, and materials involved to justify this price. The same holds true for 100K Dynaudio speakers.

I agree that for instance, 26500$ for the Apogee DIVA does seriously not reflect the price that that speaker cost to make. Its mostly, MDF, cartboard and aluminium foil plus the magnets. Sound wise, i think its worth every penny, but so does RGA in regards to his dream 40K Audio Note speakers.
...

Anyway, sound, luxury, finesse and a seldom made product increase the price and to some it is worth it and to others it is not. The choice is yours, or not... depends on the pocket book. Right RGA ?

I think we can agree there is not much correlation between what a thing costs to make and its MSRP. There is even less between the cost and its value to any given buyer.

[E-Stat]

E-Stat would sell his soundlabs u1 as well before buying the majestics, so he would only pay the difference in price.

At nine feet tall, I'd have to get a bigger room first! Actually, it would be a lateral move for me. While more panel area is always good, the Majestic 945s offer a narrower 45 degree radiation angle resulting in a smaller sweet spot for the listening distance. Also, they use less rigid wooden frames as opposed to the spiked tubular steel frames of the Ultimate series.

While in Utah recently, I visited the SL factory and saw some unusual flavors under construction: a 45 degree pair of U-1s (which by design have to be wider) and another pair of standard 90 degree U-1s with shiny stainless steel frames. Naturally, if I had the space (and the budget!), I would follow Ray Kimber's approach with his triple 922s. Nothing succeeds like excess !

rw

[Deadeye]

E-Stat, what are those funny little boxes for? You know, the ones with those little round things in them!

[GMichael]

E-Stat, what are those funny little boxes for? You know, the ones with those little round things in them!

That's what speakers used to look like.

[E-Stat]

E-Stat, what are those funny little boxes for?

Good question! The pic is from one of the Rocky Mountain Audio Festivals. Although you cannot see it, what you see is half of a four channel "iso-mike" system Mr. Kimber developed. You may also recognize the EMM Labs digital front end gear, Pass Labs amps and (naturally) Kimber cable!

rw

[RoadRunner6]

I have your turntable , or at least something similar.
Two technics, one belt, the other direct drive, one early eighties, the other late eighties.
CURRENTLY I use the direct drive model(sl-d20) and it sounds great.
Anybody with enough cash can throw money at a problem , but getting a great sound at a bargain price has always been a challenge, and IMHO more fun.
That is one of the great things about this hobby, a poorass with skill can have a pretty
good system.
You just have to know how to shop

We are exactly on the same wavelength here Pix. My post was mainly for us mortals here who for the most part probably have about $5000-$10000 or not much more in their entire systems (whether stereo or MC HT). By the end of my current upgrades which should be complete later this year (new pre-pro and BD player) I will have about $7000 in my complete 5.1 HT system. This does not include some other components, SVHS decks, extra CD players, cassette decks,etc. I think the average Joe or Jane would pay about $10000-$15000 for comparable equipment and performance from a HT dealer.

I have no problem at all with those who can afford extremely expensive gear for perfectionism if not for significantly better sound. There are a number of such folks here and I drool over their equipment lists. However, I still maintain that with careful buying and proper set-up I can put together a system (cone speakers) for under $10000 (or $7000 like I mentioned above) that the general enthusiast would listen to and view and state that it was quite close in performance to systems costing 5 or 10 times as much. Thus, my comments pertaining to diminishing returns starting somehwere in this general price area.

RR6

[pixelthis]

We are exactly on the same wavelength here Pix. My post was mainly for us mortals here who for the most part probably have about $5000-$10000 or not much more in their entire systems (whether stereo or MC HT). By the end of my current upgrades which should be complete later this year (new pre-pro and BD player) I will have about $7000 in my complete 5.1 HT system. This does not include some other components, SVHS decks, extra CD players, cassette decks,etc. I think the average Joe or Jane would pay about $10000-$15000 for comparable equipment and performance from a HT dealer.

I have no problem at all with those who can afford extremely expensive gear for perfectionism if not for significantly better sound. There are a number of such folks here and I drool over their equipment lists. However, I still maintain that with careful buying and proper set-up I can put together a system (cone speakers) for under $10000 (or $7000 like I mentioned above) that the general enthusiast would listen to and view and state that it was quite close in performance to systems costing 5 or 10 times as much. Thus, my comments pertaining to diminishing returns starting somehwere in this general price area.

RR6

My gear is about the same .
THE only thing wrong with my 2500 worth of b&w is the darn things wont die, going on
seven years and still sound great, talk about a bargain.
I beleive in the law of diminshing returns, after ten grand or so you get smaller and smaller
improvement for less and less money.
Which is great if you have money to throw at a problem, but I dont.
One thing I have longed to do (except that some woman, problem, or both came along)
was advance beyond the receiver pond dwellers.
I WISH TO EVOLVE, crawl up on the beach and bask in the sun, and the sound of
seperates.
MAYBE some day...