Emotiva ERC-1 CD Player --- Review

[blackraven]

I've just gone through the reviews of the ERC-1 on the Emotiva forums and no one there really tells how this player is sonically superior and very few have compared it to more expensive older CD players. I guess it will take some time for other people to compare it to high end CD players. The problem is that most people buying the ERC-1 do not own $1500+ CDP's or DAC's to compare it to.

[RoadRunner6]

RR, I have no doubt that Emotiva products are good and a great bargain. Its just that I have no reference of comparison. I would love to see several reviews by users and professionals comparing the CD player and amps to more expensive products.

Blackraven also said: "The problem is that most people buying the ERC-1 do not own $1500+ CDP's or DAC's to compare it to." He wants to buy a $399 player that is superior in sound to players $1500 an up ... gee, wouldn't that be worth a small fee for shipping to try it out himself for 30 days and perhaps save $1100 or more ... instead, he is going to trust some guy who says my ERC-1 blew away the $2500 ABC player and was way superior sonically to my neighbors $4000 XYZ player? ... I RR6, did it myself rather than trust someone else's probably very subjective evaluation ... I trust that my evaluation was very objective and controlled ... sorry if I did not write a creative writing thesis on the sonic characteristics of the ERC-1 ... I could find no hint of distortion, poor soundstage or imaging or less than ultra clean sound that I could confidently attribute to the ERC-1. If you are looking for me to describe in flowery details the differences between the ERC-1 and the Oppo or any other players I have heard in other locations ... well, I just don't have that big of an imagination.

Blackraven, maybe you didn't see post # 16 above or maybe those player don't meet with your standards. You could go to Emotiva's forum and write that guy a PM and get his more detailed evauations of the ERC-1 comparedf to those players in more detail. I'm not sure exactly how long the ERC-1 player has been out, not much more than a month or two. Maybe you should try to be patient. Hey, why don't you go over to the Emotiva forum and get them stirred up to write some owner reviews. Explain that you are interested in the ERC-1 but want to know how it compares sonically to the Rega, Cambridge, etc. I'm almost sure I saw a comparison to a Rega player but I figure it's your job to go there and hunt it down. Maybe you can use the search feature to find it.

I would let them know that you are getting impatient for someone to do a comparison to the players that you highly regard. Maybe you could give them a list of 5-10 players. Or you could just call and ask to speak with Big Dan, the owner or to Lonnie one of his right hand men. This is not a huge company, if they are in the office they will be happy to chat about the ERC-1 with you. I called today to ask about a speaker I had ordered for comparison and Cathy, Dan's wife ansered the phone. She is a very friendly woman and most helpful.

If all else fails you could actually order one yourself and do the tests. They only charge $18 shipping. That's half of what the sales tax would cost on a $400 player in my state. If you do return it you would be out only about $35. That is less that it costs for some BJ cables. You yourself could do the tests and write the review in your own golden ear audiophile vernacular. Throw in one of Mr. P's favorite terms like synergy (you know how he describes that he hears synergy between certain amps and certain speakers...what an amazing talent.. I can't even sometimes hear synergy between my left and right speakers ) and lots of other poetic and spophisicated sounding adjectives to describe the sound. Check with a thesaurus if you need help.

Just hope some smart ass doesn't respond to your review thread and ask a question like, hey BR, how do you know that all the magnificant or unmagnificant things you heard were 100% due to the sonic characteristics of the player and were not actually from the source disc, audio cables, speaker wire, speakers, speaker stands, amplifier, pre, line conditioner, power cord, anti-vibration accessories, room acoustics or that you forgot to rub some of the green felt marking pen around the perimeter of the disc.

Oh and be sure you don't compare the ERC-1 to any CD players you have heard anywhere but in the room in which you tested them against the ERC-1. No comparisons with other players you heard at any dealers, friends or neighbors house because I'm sure that you realize these would be irrelevant and invalid due to the fact that the other parts of the puzzle like I mention above "source disc, audio cables, speaker wire, speakers, speaker stands, amplifier, pre, line conditioner, power cord, anti-vibration accessories, room acoustics or that you forgot to rub some of the green felt marking pen around the perimiter of the disc" could have affected your sonic evaluation and you wouldn't know what was the real source of those adjectives.

Oh yeah, and of course be sure you make this an objective, blind test so there is no possiblity of your subconscious leanings coloring your sonic perceptions. Please list in detail your testing procedures and source CD's.

Thanks, I'll be looking forward to reading your review. I'd be happy to send you a copy of my 19 track test CD.

Please can you do this in the next several weeks if you have time. Emotiva has plenty of the ERC-1's in stock. However, know that last year they sold out a whole projected year's supply of there pre/pro in 2 months, so don't wait too long.

RR6

[RoadRunner6]

Thanks Win I appreciate the kind words. I do a lot of research before I jump on any company's bandwagon. Emotiva has been around for more than 5 years I think. They seem to have their act together and I'm extremely happy so far with my purchases. When I find some great deals like I have found I like to spread the word, my nature.

[basite]

Look closely, do you see any similarities? Think they look like they are the same exact unit? Bingo!

Now understand I'm not saying these were two great products, there were some cons. I think this was in fact Emotiva's first pre/pro. The point I want to make with this comparison is that we have the Sunfire sold by traditional methods thru retail outlets at $3495 and the Emotiva factory direct at $1499! (I believe the prices later went up on both units, the Sunfire about $4000 or so and the Emo around $2400 or so, still a big difference ..... I think Emotiva has further increased their efficiency in manufacturing and costs and have even a greater price advantage).

So next time anyone thinks that an Emotiva price seems too good to be true, think again

just as this brand called 'Vincent' shamlessly copied Mark levinson and Classe products. and yes, their price sounded to good to true too. And in fact, it was too good to be true, since Vincent used lesser quality parts, and cheaper, less reliable production methods. Apart from that, the research costs are also pretty low, since all you do is copy the other product, which also lowers the price of the product.

the point that I'm making here is that even when it looks the same, it just don't really means that it is the same.

And I'm not saying that Emotiva still copies all it's products from other (succesfull) brands, but the fact that they did, could make one sceptical.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[RoadRunner6]

Sorry basite, but that's nonsense. Emotiva was in their first several years (I think they split off from AV123 maybe later) and sold a product that was identical to the Sunfire and Shelburne. Happens frequently in this business. Emotiva did not copy Sunfire's product but legally made an identical product. They apparently came off the same assembly line as the Shelburne and probably the Sunfire too with different face plates.

Then the stories start that they are made with inferior parts, BS! The dealers spread that type of nonsense about the Panny products sold at Costco. Another one is that the Integra components use hand parts of the assembly line and the rest go into the Onkyo components. Who do you suppose started that one, the Integra reps and dealers? Right, you're catching on! The reps did lot of story telling. But perhaps one of the greatest sales/marketing con jobs of all time was from the Advent headquarters. "Hey men the big boss wants us to double sales this year...holy sh1t boss, how are we going to do that?...well, Joe here came up with at great idea...he says an old friend taught him a trick...if you take two of the same speakers and put one on top of the other one and invert the top speaker and hook them up in parallel, ugh, or is it series?...oh well I'll have Fred the engineer explain the exact hookup...it sounds better than just the one speaker, duh...so we get the dumb asses over at Absolute Baloney to buy it and they wright a review that it sounds better than sliced bread and voila!...everybody and his borther will want "double Advents" and we can double our sales, simply brilliant boys...hey boss, what about triple Advents?...oh now there's an even better idea..........

One reason the cost advantage of Emotiva has even gotten better is that now they are actually designing and building and testing their own products.

From Audioholics:

"..........the Emotiva DMC-1 is most definitely an Audiophile product..........Due to multiple requests about the similarities between the various processors utilizing Bob Carver/Sunfire platform we felt it important to provide some perspective on the three main units available to consumers. Sherbourn Technologies and Emotiva both are able to have their products made through a manufacturer in China who is licensed to make these products based on the Bob Carver/Sunfire platform...........As you can see, the units are essentially identical, except for cosmetics, pricing, warranty and some small details.........."

Tthe units are "essentially identical."

[basite]

Sorry basite, but that's nonsense. Emotiva was in their first several years (I think they split off from AV123 maybe later) and sold a product that was identical to the Sunfire and Shelburne. Happens frequently in this business. Emotiva did not copy Sunfire's product but legally made an identical product. They apparently came off the same assembly line as the Shelburne and probably the Sunfire too with different face plates.

apparently...

So, if they're 'essentially identical' products, how are you going to clarify that they cost 2k less?
buying direct from the factory makes a difference, but definately not 2k. especially since they come from the same factoryas 'the original'! add to that that sunfire gets a share of the price, since it would be plain idiocy if you let some other company build products identical to yours, and then sell them for half the price...


could very well be that Emotiva designs & tests it's own products, and that is very good. And it could very well be that those products sound great. But 'building an essentially identical product', while not being related to the other company, is something that makes me sceptical. If I ever gained any interest in Emotiva products, I (personally...) would proceed with caution.

But perhaps one of the greatest sales/marketing con jobs of all time was from the Advent headquarters. "Hey men the big boss wants us to double sales this year...holy sh1t boss, how are we going to do that?...well, Joe here came up with at great idea...he says an old friend taught him a trick...if you take two of the same speakers and put one on top of the other one and invert the top speaker and hook them up in parallel, ugh, or is it series?...oh well I'll have Fred the engineer explain the exact hookup...it sounds better than just the one speaker, duh...so we get the dumb asses over at Absolute Baloney to buy it and they wright a review that it sounds better than sliced bread and voila!...everybody and his borther will want "double Advents" and we can double our sales, simply brilliant boys...hey boss, what about triple Advents?...oh now there's an even better idea..........

usually marketing tricks don't really have any proof behind them that they actually make a difference.
What a double advent system basically does is making them a D'appolito design, a theory that you also often find with high end speaker manufacturers, even today.
They did this with the advents because they had excellent drivers (given their price...), and their price also allowed people to actually buy 4 advents, not having to rob a bank.
That, and the fact that almost every single review said that they sounded way better than just single advents, does not make it 'just a marketing trick'.


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Feanor]

...

So, if they're 'essentially identical' products, how are you going to clarify that they cost 2k less?
buying direct from the factory makes a difference, but definately not 2k. especially since they come from the same factoryas 'the original'! add to that that sunfire gets a share of the price, since it would be plain idiocy if you let some other company build products identical to yours, and then sell them for half the price
...

Bear in mind, Bert, that the relationship between manufacturing cost and selling price is very loose. You concede that a longer distribution channel definitely adds to cost. But marketing strategy has a lot of tricks to play to increase the selling price without appreciable increasing costs at all.

For a start, a well-know brand name enhances the perceived value of a product. We know that some well-know brands, such as 'GE', have been tarnished in the eye of the general product by sell rights to use the brand to other marketers who want to sell stuff that isn't actually made by the ultimate owner of the brand. General Electric doesn't make TVs for instance.

The the prestige of the 'Carver' name can boost the price of the Shelburne/Emotiva/Carver product. Did the legendary Bob Carver actually design the aforementioned AV processor? Highly unlikely.

Other things have the as similar effect, such as fancy face plate. While millled aluminum face plate might cost $20 to produce, it's a small price to pay for a $200 price increase -- or a $1000 price increase when used in conjunction with a prestige brand name.

...
could very well be that Emotiva designs & tests it's own products, and that is very good. And it could very well be that those products sound great. But 'building an essentially identical product', while not being related to the other company, is something that makes me sceptical. If I ever gained any interest in Emotiva products, I (personally...) would proceed with caution.
...
Bert.

It's naive to suppose that brand owners build their all their own products. In fact the opposite is true, especially and increasingly nowadays that so much production happens in China, Malasia, etc. In these case the actual producer often negociates to produce off-brand versions of the product to be sold in different markets or through different marketing channels. Or sometime they do it without benefit of actual, legal agreements.

However it's also quite true that identical designs can be built in different ways. Not only a cheaper face plate but cheaper (and perhaps counterfeit) internal components can be substituted during some runs of the production line without any significant distruption of the process. Where the brand owner's qualtiy control is weak, conterfeit components can end up in the prestige-brand product.

[winston]

true Word's Feanor

[blackraven]

Whoa there birdman! I'm not dissing the ERC-1. I'm interested in buying it for my basement system to use with my MMG's. I just saying that I would like to see a review with a head to head comparison with more expensive players and I would like to see several people tell what the sonic attributes are. I believe there are inexpensive players and other audio equipment that can compare to more expensive equipment. The 840c is one such player as is the Music Hall 25.2, Oppo Universal players etc. I'm a big believer that most high end audio equipment is way over priced. My father was an electrical engineer and designed and built computers for the aerospace industry and he used to tell us how much electronic equipment was over priced.

Before I buy one to audition I would like more info.. I sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Cheers!

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks Win I appreciate the kind words. I do a lot of research before I jump on any company's bandwagon. Emotiva has been around for more than 5 years I think. They seem to have their act together and I'm extremely happy so far with my purchases. When I find some great deals like I have found I like to spread the word, my nature.

So much research I have to say "I think". You like to spread it around alright.

The Sunfire and Emotiva may or may not be exactly the same but because two units come out of the same factory don't make them the same. The manufacturer still has to build the unit per the companies specs whose name goes on it. Hence, Denon and Marantz receivers built in the same factory and even under the same umbrella but both have their own sound. I have some Denon and I was actually surprised at how different my Marantz pieces are. The NAD Blu-ray player has the same chasis as an LG model, I wonder at $1500.00 if it's the same piece. You'd really never know unless you took the hood off and knew what you were looking at.

I'm ashamed to say that even Krell now has their KAV stuff built in China. Arcam has done this for a few years. One difference in these high end companies they farm out the lower series while keeping the higher end stuff in house. I understand Arcam isn't offering receivers any more. I don't know what their game plan is, maybe to remain devoted to only high end. Oddly though it was the great performing budget gear that made them now they are abandoning it. Arcam used to be like Cambridge is today. Boy did I get off on a tangent... reaching for the Focus Factor. Will he make it in time? Can he reach it? Will he remember what he is getting? Tune in next time, same AR forum, same AR thread.....

[RoadRunner6]

"..........As you can see, the units are essentially identical, except for cosmetics, pricing, warranty and some small details.........."

Maybe try reading this above one more time (is it not clear?) if you're not too busy reading your bible. A little more fact and less fiction might help.

[RoadRunner6]

[gmartan]

The only player that I have considered to be the best CD/SACD player so far is the Musical Fidelity Trivista. This player is such a detailed,natural and so involving cd player that I am yet to find a player that can sound this good. Its a $6500 CD player and I think it was worth every penny. It is also a Tube CD player so it will not be fair for me to make a fair comparison to the ERC-1. But the Emotiva ERC-1 is the closest player that has ever come to the Musical Fidelity Trivista while playing Redbook Cds........"

I agree about the MF Tri-Vista. Unfortunately, all the transports failed and Philips provided no replacements. There were several other high end manufacturers that got burned along with the people that bought those units. Now I don't even buy a Philips light bulb.

I now have a McIntosh CDP500 and the Oppo BP-83 is completely lifeless in comparison. It is of course 10 times as much.

[frahengeo]

I have always been on the skeptical and objective side when it comes to other than speakers and cartridges
My presumption is that there will be either a very slight improvement from the ERC-1 or that I will hear no difference. I don't think it will be a significant difference. (these were my honest thoughts before I started this review)

**************************

Isn't your statement somewhat contradicting? Being objective would mean no presumption, assumptions, or preconceived notions, no? Just a thought.

Could you have done a blind test by having a friend or spouse switch the sources for you while you unknowingly listened? Again, just a thought.

Other than that, those two companies have been the talk of the town. Its refreshing to see companies like Oppo and Emotiva bring quality products for the mass audience.

[Majestyk]

Just thought I'd bring this back to life. There's a lot of nice info about the ERC-1 in the review but not much on the actual comparison to that of the Oppo. I was hoping the 'Conclusion' would state what the listener found different between the BD-83 and ERC-1.

Anyway, I have made comparisons between the Oppo BD-83 and the 20 year old Denon DCD-1560...No mods and no external DACS. I won't get in to details yet, as I'd rather start a new thread, either here or another forum, but I will say the Oppo has a cold, hollow sound compared to the Denon. I hadn't listened to either player before making my comparisons. I used a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphones and to make an analogy, I'd say the sound from the Denon was like listening to it in an acoustically treated room, where the Oppo was in an untreated, empty room. The Oppo does have nice detail and a neutral sound but that's all I can give it. Like the reviewer stated, it's good as a Universal player, but by no means audiophile material.

I'm hoping some day I can compare the Emotiva with the Denon.

M

[audiodaze74]

anyone anywhere have any clue when the Emotiva UMC-1 is finally going to be available to buy...i have been on that "waiting list" for ages.

[Mr Peabody]

Last I heard they are still tweaking it and won't let it out until they are satisfied. My suggestion would be to email Emotiva directly That way you get the latest and most accurate update.